England - Summer Tour to South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC

ebop wrote:The number of NZ born, NZ raised or professionally developed NZ players in your team is frightening

Ok ebop, I've checked for you. From the 34 player squad:

Mako - born in NZ, moved to Wales at a young age.
Te'o - born in NZ to English/Samoan parents
Shields - born in NZ to English parents
Solomona - born in NZ, moved to Aus around 17yo

So basically from a squad of 34, there's 4....a truly frightening 11%. I wonder how many of the NZ squad are born in Tonga, Samoa and Fiji.....I imagine quite a frightening number.

Welly wrote:

ebop wrote:The number of NZ born, NZ raised or professionally developed NZ players in your team is frightening

I've just checked the last NZ squad, 7 out of 43 were born in Tonga, Samoa or Fiji. That's 16%......

Glass houses and stones comes to mind.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nathan Earle is an odd inclusion, he's not been in great from when I've seen him. Dan Cole dropped and only 2 tight heads is a risk going to SA.

I think it was decided some time ago that Cole wouldn't tour because he has played so much rugby over the last two years. He needs rest and a pre season if he'll be RWC ready. Also we know all about Dan, we need to keep developing his long term replacements.

I'd have gone further and rested Mako as well. Take Obano and make it a straight shoot out for understudy duties. Marler is on the way out and this is approaching last chance saloon for him.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nathan Earle is an odd inclusion, he's not been in great from when I've seen him. Dan Cole dropped and only 2 tight heads is a risk going to SA.

I think it was decided some time ago that Cole wouldn't tour because he has played so much rugby over the last two years. He needs rest and a pre season if he'll be RWC ready. Also we know all about Dan, we need to keep developing his long term replacements.

I'd have gone further and rested Mako as well. Take Obano and make it a straight shoot out for understudy duties. Marler is on the way out and this is approaching last chance saloon for him.

Well the others rested are Wigglesworth, Haskell and Care. Looks like a dropped list rather than a rested list imo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nathan Earle is an odd inclusion, he's not been in great from when I've seen him. Dan Cole dropped and only 2 tight heads is a risk going to SA.

I think it was decided some time ago that Cole wouldn't tour because he has played so much rugby over the last two years. He needs rest and a pre season if he'll be RWC ready. Also we know all about Dan, we need to keep developing his long term replacements.

I'd have gone further and rested Mako as well. Take Obano and make it a straight shoot out for understudy duties. Marler is on the way out and this is approaching last chance saloon for him.

Well the others rested are Wigglesworth, Haskell and Care. Looks like a dropped list rather than a rested list imo.

Yeah, well, Haskell didn't want to play anyway, rugby is stupid

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Welly wrote:

ebop wrote:The number of NZ born, NZ raised or professionally developed NZ players in your team is frightening

I've just checked the last NZ squad, 7 out of 43 were born in Tonga, Samoa or Fiji. That's 16%......

Glass houses and stones comes to mind.

100% of those players were raised as kids in NZ or developed their rugby in NZ

Sgt_Pooly, you know deep down your RFU is cynical and has lost its way. Hiring that greasy Aussie as head coach must have been a bitter pill to swallow and to see him bastardising your team must be really tough as well.

Here’s a stat, there are 0% born English players or English developed players in the ABs.

ebop this is 21st Century Europe. Get used to it.

Preaching to the wrong crowd ebop. I love Jones, he can select who he pleases for me. Thanks for Shields anyway, I'm a big fan.

Me too, Many thanks for releasing him from his contract.

Lol, so much pride you guys have

Like I say, post-2003 blues (desperation)

Good luck

Ebop you haven't a leg to stand on.

Of the 4 players in the England squad - one arrived as a young kid and 2 have English parents.

I'm no Englishman but I now a dead horse when I see one.

The SH-arisation of England rugby

I think it’s wonderful

Can’t beat em, bring em in

Can't wait for the tour of SA this summer.
NZ last year was ok but it all felt a bit forced and fake atmos from the locals who didn't know much about rugby, I need to experience a real rugby nation this summer, plus some decent beer would be nice too.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Thanks for Shields anyway, I'm a big fan.

Don’t thank me mate, thank Brad for compromising his dreams when you see him

I am disappointed to see Mako and Maro included. For their and England's RWC benefit they should be rested and allowed to have a proper pre-season. Saracens will flog'em from the off next season so their only rest will be via injury (which should be avoided) or the AIs, which with the ABs won't happen. I think this is short sighted.

hugehandoff wrote:I am disappointed to see Mako and Maro included. For their and England's RWC benefit they should be rested and allowed to have a proper pre-season. Saracens will flog'em from the off next season so their only rest will be via injury (which should be avoided) or the AIs, which with the ABs won't happen. I think this is short sighted.

I agree to a point, but I think its more a case Uncle Eddie keeping and eye on them and making sure they don't fill out this summer! I expect Mako to only play if the other guys don't make an impact early on.

TightHEAD wrote:Me too, Many thanks for releasing him from his contract.

Sorry if this has already been raised, but I have to admit I'm scratching my head over this one.  I was under the impression that under World Rugby rules players had to be released for matches during the international window and for the week leading up to those matches. I get that there needs to be negotiation for any additional player access above and beyond this - but surely as a minimum the NZRU have to let him go if he is selected for the 3 weeks of the tests??  Hence English clubs have to release non-English players for AIs, Rugby Championship, etc.

Have the rules changed or is this about getting him a week or two earlier to help prepare rather than for the actual tests?

Aside from all that, I'd also ask the question are NZ helping us out to be nice, or to increase the odds of us beating SA and giving them a confidence knock prior to the Rugby Championship?  Not complaining either way, but I can't help but wonder if this is more to do with SANZAR rivalry than pro-Eng.  

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nathan Earle is an odd inclusion, he's not been in great from when I've seen him. Dan Cole dropped and only 2 tight heads is a risk going to SA.

I think it was decided some time ago that Cole wouldn't tour because he has played so much rugby over the last two years. He needs rest and a pre season if he'll be RWC ready. Also we know all about Dan, we need to keep developing his long term replacements.

I'd have gone further and rested Mako as well. Take Obano and make it a straight shoot out for understudy duties. Marler is on the way out and this is approaching last chance saloon for him.

Well the others rested are Wigglesworth, Haskell and Care. Looks like a dropped list rather than a rested list imo.

We'll see come the AIs but the rumours of Cole being given the summer off have been going around for a while. I don't know any Tigers fans who expected him to go. His form has been hit and miss this season so a full pre season for the first time in years will be worth it. For Jones it's a no lose strategy, he either gets his most experienced tighthead back in form (when in form Cole is the best available tighthead). If Cole is still a bit hit and miss then he's continued to blood the two successors.

Big wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Me too, Many thanks for releasing him from his contract.

Sorry if this has already been raised, but I have to admit I'm scratching my head over this one.  I was under the impression that under World Rugby rules players had to be released for matches during the international window and for the week leading up to those matches. I get that there needs to be negotiation for any additional player access above and beyond this - but surely as a minimum the NZRU have to let him go if he is selected for the 3 weeks of the tests??  Hence English clubs have to release non-English players for AIs, Rugby Championship, etc.

Have the rules changed or is this about getting him a week or two earlier to help prepare rather than for the actual tests?

Brad Shields had a contract with NZRU that stated he was only available for selection by NZ. As such not a million miles away from contracts some NH clubs have with some players.

However as per the World Rugby regulations they cannot prevent a player from heading off on international duty should the player wish - however contractually they would have grounds on seeking some compensation from the player.

I have no idea what compromise may have been reached behind closed doors, but I am pretty sure that NZRU knew that the most they could do was to stop Shields joining up with England until the week before T1.

A union that huge having to import players over is a shocking advert for player pathways and development. I don't care where he was born but having never played in a country he is going to represent is odd.

LondonTiger wrote:

Brad Shields had a contract with NZRU that stated he was only available for selection by NZ. As such not a million miles away from contracts some NH clubs have with some players.

It sounded like that was the implication, however, I thought those kinds of clauses were banned in contracts by the regulations.  Seem to remember there was a bit of a hoo-haa about some of the (I think) TOP14 clubs having suspected unwritten gentlemen's agreements to that effect, to stop PI players disappearing off for chunks in the season.  Might be poor memory on my part though...

Inclusion of Cipriani. Good call or just a backwards step.

He may be on brilliant form this season for Wasps, but I cant help think this is a backwards step.

Have to love Jones' comment though... [from BBC] Jones said the 30-year-old had not been recalled because "I've never picked him".

The gift that keep giving...

munkian wrote:A union that huge having to import players over is a shocking advert for player pathways and development. I don't care where he was born but having never played in a country he is going to represent is odd.

Tomas Francis born in York has never played in Wales. Ross Moriarty born up north in England (Wearside?) And has yet to play in Wales. They've both got multiple Wales caps. Moriarty played England age grade as well.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

munkian wrote:A union that huge having to import players over is a shocking advert for player pathways and development. I don't care where he was born but having never played in a country he is going to represent is odd.

Tomas Francis born in York has never played in Wales. Ross Moriarty born up north in England (Wearside?) And has yet to play in Wales. They've both got multiple Wales caps. Moriarty played England age grade as well.

They have both played in the Principality Stadium, which, unless someone with better geographical knowledge than me, is in CARDIFF WALES...

Now, before you come back at my comment, I fully understand what you actually meant, but my response was to illustrate how churlish your (munkain & sam) posts where...

formerly known as Sam wrote:

munkian wrote:A union that huge having to import players over is a shocking advert for player pathways and development. I don't care where he was born but having never played in a country he is going to represent is odd.

Tomas Francis born in York has never played in Wales. Ross Moriarty born up north in England (Wearside?) And has yet to play in Wales. They've both got multiple Wales caps. Moriarty played England age grade as well.

Wales is tiny and comparatively poor. Not sure how hot you are on geography but there is quite the leap from Glaws to Wales than England to NZ ?

Plus his Dad and Uncle played for Wales and Ross was born in England whilst his Dad was playing league. Ross also grew up in Wales and played his age grade rugby there. They aren't comparable  

Is it not concerning that England can't develop test level back rowers ?

ebop wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Welly wrote:

ebop wrote:The number of NZ born, NZ raised or professionally developed NZ players in your team is frightening

I've just checked the last NZ squad, 7 out of 43 were born in Tonga, Samoa or Fiji. That's 16%......

Glass houses and stones comes to mind.

100% of those players were raised as kids in NZ or developed their rugby in NZ

Sgt_Pooly, you know deep down your RFU is cynical and has lost its way. Hiring that greasy Aussie as head coach must have been a bitter pill to swallow and to see him bastardising your team must be really tough as well.

Here’s a stat, there are 0% born English players or English developed players in the ABs.

That's down to more than rugby aspects though Ebop. The number of people going from your neck of the woods to ours is MUCH MUCH higher than going the other way. That plays its part in eligibility... (which I have my issues with but it is a legitimate point)

munkian wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

munkian wrote:A union that huge having to import players over is a shocking advert for player pathways and development. I don't care where he was born but having never played in a country he is going to represent is odd.

Tomas Francis born in York has never played in Wales. Ross Moriarty born up north in England (Wearside?) And has yet to play in Wales. They've both got multiple Wales caps. Moriarty played England age grade as well.

Wales is tiny and comparatively poor. Not sure how hot you are on geography but there is quite the leap from Glaws to Wales than England to NZ ?

Plus his Dad and Uncle played for Wales and Ross was born in England whilst his Dad was playing league. Ross also grew up in Wales and played his age grade rugby there. They aren't comparable  

Is it not concerning that England can't develop test level back rowers ?

Well apparently we did. There is this guy called Moriarty....

lostinwales wrote:

munkian wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

munkian wrote:A union that huge having to import players over is a shocking advert for player pathways and development. I don't care where he was born but having never played in a country he is going to represent is odd.

Tomas Francis born in York has never played in Wales. Ross Moriarty born up north in England (Wearside?) And has yet to play in Wales. They've both got multiple Wales caps. Moriarty played England age grade as well.

Wales is tiny and comparatively poor. Not sure how hot you are on geography but there is quite the leap from Glaws to Wales than England to NZ ?

Plus his Dad and Uncle played for Wales and Ross was born in England whilst his Dad was playing league. Ross also grew up in Wales and played his age grade rugby there. They aren't comparable  

Is it not concerning that England can't develop test level back rowers ?

Well apparently we did. There is this guy called Moriarty....

Astonished Armand isn't in the team a much stronger ball carrier than Robshaw, would have liked to have seen Woodward in for Brown and has Solomona learnt to tackle yet

rosbif wrote:Astonished Armand isn't in the team a much stronger ball carrier than Robshaw, would have liked to have seen Woodward in for Brown  and has Solomona learnt to tackle yet

And yet half the player that Robshaw is.....

There were rumours a few years back that Matt Symons was approached by NZR but he apparently turned them down.

Astonished Armand isn't in the team a much stronger ball carrier than Robshaw, would have liked to have seen Woodward in for Brown and has Solomona learnt to tackle yet

And yet half the player that Robshaw is.....

We will return to the debate after Saturdays match.

munkian wrote:A union that huge having to import players over is a shocking advert for player pathways and development. I don't care where he was born but having never played in a country he is going to represent is odd.

I don't get why this is all of a sudden an issue. Huw Jones was born in Scotland, moved to England when he was 2, moved to South Africa in his teens, got a Super Rugby contract, a Scotland call-up and only then moved back to Scotland to play pro-rugby in Scotland.

Is Huw Jones that much more Scottish than Brad Shields is English because his parents moved to England after his birth, and not before his birth like Shields? I'm not having a go at Scotland or Huw Jones, he's Scottish and entitled to play. But Brad Shields can only be considered marginally less English than Jones is Scottish.

If you don't like that one, what about Ross Moriarty? Born in England to Welsh parents, won a World Championship with England under-20s, played all his pro-rugby for Gloucester and then got a Wales call-up before agreeing a move to the Dragons for next season. He is as Welsh as Shields is English, and I don't think anyone would deny him a place in the Wales squad.

That Shields hasn't played in England is neither here nor there, it is not an issue for his eligibility as he's got English heritage. England could pick Shields even if he was signed to the Canes for another 5 years, the only thing that could stop them would be their own ruling. So the only issue is do they fall foul of that. And if the RFU are happy that this is an exception within the spirit of the agreement, then that doesn't matter.

The only issue would be if he'd been playing his rugby in a minor league and there was no gauge of the relative standard - in which case I'd say we'd be best off testing him in the Premiership first. But Super Rugby is of a high enough standard that that is not an issue.

As an aside, if we want to talk about pathway, one of the men standing opposite Brad Shields in the 2011 Junior World Cup final was Sam Jones - who has recently retired prematurely because of a broken leg. If it wasn't for that, would he have established himself and would Shields be picked? On that day we also had Alex Gray (now playing NFL), as well as Matt Kvesic (Exeter) and Matt Everard (Nottingham), who are both still playing professional rugby.

No9 wrote:Inclusion of Cipriani. Good call or just a backwards step.

He may be on brilliant form this season for Wasps, but I cant help think this is a backwards step.

Have to love Jones' comment though... [from BBC] Jones said the 30-year-old had not been recalled because "I've never picked him".

The gift that keep giving...

No harm in testing him out is there. 30 is a good age heading into a RWC.

England U20s team to play SA U20s tomorrow

If anyone wants to see one half of our 2027 RWC centre pairing play, he's starting at 13

ebop wrote:The number of NZ born, NZ raised or professionally developed NZ players in your team is frightening

The smell of hypocrisy is ripe or is it the fresh pile of horse manure you have just spouted.

No9 wrote:...Have to love Jones' comment though... Jones said the 30-year-old had not been recalled because "I've never picked him"...

I know what he means, but it's an ill-considered comment by Jones, because Cipriani went on the Saxons tour, and Jones should have been responsible for selecting that squad.

Still, it does make me wonder how much involvement Jones really had in selecting the Saxons, because he never really used anyone from that tour again. I suspect Jones has some regrets now, given that he says he ought to have refreshed his squad earlier. A successful Saxons tour of South Africa in 2016 should have given him a dozen playes to consider using at some point in the next season, but it never happened.

Now, we have Cipriani and Robson back in the frame two years later. What a waste of the time inbetween, if they do perform well, and become part of the set-up.

The rules for player selection are the same for all,what is important with the RWC only about 18
months away.Is to get the selections and combinations right whatever the situation now RWC`s.

Are the only time you get the full sides injury allowances aside at full strength,you know that
France,SA,NZ,Aus,Argentina will all be up for it.
The SA sides in Super look in better shape than last year the Jaguars are on fire,Japan should
have reached QF in 2015 and at home may well do so this time.
For the first time NZ may not win there group.Boks may win it an interesting thought the AB`s

on the easier side of the draw.A repeat of 1995 maybe?

rosbif wrote:
Astonished Armand isn't in the team a much stronger ball carrier than Robshaw, would have liked to have seen Woodward in for Brown  and has Solomona learnt to tackle yet

And yet half the player that Robshaw is.....

We will return to the debate after Saturdays match.

Yes and my response will still be the same. Robshaw isn't flashy, hes the sweeper, the work horse, the tackler, the spoiler. Eddie Jones dissed him hugely...then when he took charge, realised what a top player the guy is.

When the young pretenders - Curry, Simmonds, Underhill, Mercer etc etc etc are playing so well that they do everything better consistently then fair enough...but at the moment that isn't happening!

Generally I like the squad...a few curious decisions thought.

Back three:
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Don't get the Earle selection at all. Solomona...well he's a try scorer. Cant argue that.
I hope Daly gets some game time at Full back so we can see how he looks.

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) *
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Don't get the Cipriani call. Pointless. Havent seen Redpath so cant comment. Slade simply has to take this tour to make one of those centre spots his! He needs a real blinder!

Forwards

Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) *
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

A decent mix. Not really familiar with some of those so cant comment. Ive heard so much about shields lets hope the guy produces the goods. Cant work out why Gary Graham is in the 6n squad then dumped for this tour?
Simmonds could shine in SA with his pace and workrate. Willis is a massive potential, and so is Curry.
Mark Wilson...is he selected to flll a squad again play really well then be dumped again. If that's the case Id rather he wasn't selected.

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Glad Cole has been rested. I am looking for a MASSIVE tour from Cowan Dickie. Aggressive, Physical and dynamic. Genge can make that LH spot his own...he'll mix it with the toughest Saffas. Sinkler needs to stamp his mark on that TH spot as well.

Lots of potential, that could be at the world cup if they show up this tour and continue through the next season plus...

I can see a few players dropping out over the next 3/4 games, fatigue induced injuries and the like.

We really, really should take this last opportunity to rest players and actually give other contenders the chance to show their ability. The shout out for Obano is right call.....is he available?

To be honest I can't remember a season like this where the players have been so decimated. The game of Union just seems hell bent on taking itself out at the knees, one barrel at a time.

Oh Danny boy......the south of France is calling.

Marler, Cowan-Dickie, Williams,
Attwood(c), Isiekwe
Robshaw, Simmonds, Armand
Youngs(vc)Cipriani,
Wade, Lozowski, Trinder, May
Slade

Obano, Cruse, Sinckler
Garratt, Shields, Willis,
Robson, Te'o

A couple of old lags, opportunities for others and plenty of rest for those in need.

Wow........I forgot about Genge, who is just made for this tour. I think Marler owes the shirt a few performances and I'd be happy to pass him the armband in the circumstances, so Genge and Obano will have to scrap it out for the bench.

Id give Marler the starting LH position, with Genge getting used to the international game from the bench. That way you see how Marlers form is...and how Genge copes (his temperament I mean..no doubt he'll be brutal every other way)
But I can see Genge making that positon his own in the Autumn tests. He's just brutal.

Eddie Jones reveals cracks have appeared in England squad as he bemoans 'selfishness' of players

Indeed, quite odd for Eddie to say this isn’t it? Says there’s an issue with unity and then picks Shields. On a lighter note, Billy V hangs out with trannys and likes cake. Good stuff.

England new boy Brad Shields is currently on TV....blues v canes.

munkian wrote:Eddie Jones reveals cracks have appeared in England squad as he bemoans 'selfishness' of players

And in other news, the sun rises in the morning....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

munkian wrote:Eddie Jones reveals cracks have appeared in England squad as he bemoans 'selfishness' of players

And in other news, the sun rises in the morning....

I thought he wanted them to be 'illegitimate childen' ?

ebop wrote:Indeed, quite odd for Eddie to say this isn’t it? Says there’s an issue with unity and then picks Shields. On a lighter note, Billy V hangs out with trannys and likes cake. Good stuff.

If we accept you are from NZ, then I would have expected you to have more understanding of the Polynesian culture and their acceptance of "trannys", as you put it. In Samoan culture its known as Fa'afafine [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine].

So, maybe a retraction and apology for that cheap swipe is in order, unless you wish to seen as nothing more than a moronic troll.

I'm not sure you really are a New Zealander, and if you are, I'm sure you're the sort of "fan" that true All Black fans wished didn't exist.

Apologies, it was a drag queen. I’m sorry, but if you’re actually trying to climb up on your moral high horse and give me a lesson in Polynesian culture then you are horribly misguided No9.

Billy V.....

'I don't fly that way but it's cool. Half of St Albans turned up. Anyway, those days are over now. I'd started to think that I was the man and I didn't look after myself.

'I was staying out late, partying, not spending the full time on crutches, not sleeping. I thought I was invincible… but I've learnt that I'm not.'

Yeah, defend that on your high horse No9. Didn’t get the details on the cake but he is carrying a bit. And maybe Eddie has a point. Although I don’t agree with the public delivery.