Scotland's 2018 Summer Tour: Darien Scheme 2.0

by Tramptastic Mon 30 Apr 2018 - 13:06

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 10th June 2018

Canada Vs Scotland

Sunday 17th June 2018

America Vs Scotland

Saturday 23rd June 2018

Argentina Vs Scotland

With an eye on the summer tour, whilst also keeping in mind the season isn't over for either of our pro teams - who would you "rest" for the summer tour and who would you bring along in their place?

I'd leave Russell, Price, WP Nel, Hogg, Dunbar, Barclay and Huw Jones purely because those guys have had extremely long seasons, are coming back from long term injuries and/or rarely (if ever) get a full pre-season with their clubs under their belts.

Dunbar is made of glass and could probably do with a summer of conditioning, same with WP Nel

Hogg, Jones and Russell have all had long seasons (lions tours/southern hemisphere seasons) and look a bit jaded.

Price is just off form and could do with some down time.

Barclay is getting on - would not like to injure our captain against America/Canada

With a world cup next year giving all of these guys a full pre-season could pay off in the long term.

Would also allow Townsend to have a closer look at Kinghorn, SHC/Horne (ideally take both and tell Fowles to f3ck off), Grigg, Chris Dean/Johnston/Bennett, Fagerson/Berghan/Mccalum, Bradbury.

Thoughts?

by **RDW** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:17

On the topic of Under 20s we're playing Ireland just now in a dogfight for survival - the loser will go into the relegation playoff.

by Leander Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:21

RDW_Scotland wrote:On the topic of Under 20s we're playing Ireland just now in a dogfight for survival - the loser will go into the relegation playoff.

Currently down 7-3

by Leander Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:24

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:28

Leander wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
Leander wrote:Shiel looked the business at u20s. Good, quick service, very lively from the base of the ruck, managed his forwards well. He'll be a hell of a player if he carries on that development curve. That said, a hell of a step up for him if he does get called upon. Interesting that they didn't choose Fowles or Kennedy or Pyrgos.

Relieved they didn't pick Fowles, HP can feel a little hard done by as he was showing good form towards the end of the season but that's a drop in the ocean of recent poor form. He has next season to up his game. I'd imagine Horne Jr will be first choice going forward for Glasgow.

I wouldn't count Price out. He's on a poor run of form, but he's a very good player.

Oh no by all means I'm not ruling him out, he needs time to examine himself and get his game back up to scratch. His dip is an opportunity for Pyrgos to cement a place in the starting 23 at Glasgow.

We'll still have Laidlaw available to us next season too in what will probably be his last/penultimate in a Scotland shirt, hopefully he can maintain decent form.

SH is looking reasonably rosy at the moment. If Velacott decides to come over to the dark blue it'll be even rosier but can't see that happening if he's been singled out by Jones as the future for England potentially.

by Leander Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:31

14-10

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:37

McLelland looks really handy. Looking forward to seeing more of him next season.

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:39

15-14 from World Rugby site. Are they streaming it on the website?

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:40

Hazel Sapling wrote:15-14 from World Rugby site. Are they streaming it on the website?

Yes - world rugby TV - it's getting me through the afternoon email dirge

by Leander Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:41

14-17

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:43

Found it, thanks. Looked in wrong place

17-14 with Irish 9 in the bin.

Ireland then high tackle. 5m lineout and maul. Scotland spread out wide and use the extra man for the wing Trotter to get a try and make it 22-14 with conversion from the corner to come

by Leander Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:45

Quite like the look of Trotter. In fact, the u20s back three have been good going forward. Defensively a bit soft, though.

by **RDW** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:46

Our backs have been good all tournament but are weak defensively

Keep the updates coming!

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:46

24-17 at half. Ireland kick a penalty to reduce the deficit. Irish 9 in the bin for the first 2-3 minutes of the second

by EWT Spoons Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 15:52

Leander wrote:Quite like the look of Trotter. In fact, the u20s back three have been good going forward. Defensively a bit soft, though.

Same, he seems a big lad who's pretty quick and hard to bring down. Early days in his career, and u20s etc have a habit of disappearing, but he looks like he could go on to make it.

With regards to Sheil, I've seen him play for Currie a couple of times, and he looks ok, but raw, which is to be expected. It wasn't a massive sample size , but in the games I've seen I wouldn't say he was ready yet.

Really, really hope he is though as it could massively help Edinburgh's 9 issue for next season.

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:09

31-17

Great line from Graham to score from halfway

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:15

38-17

Trotter breaks the line and goes from edge of Scotland 22 to Irish 10m line. Phase or two later, Irish player shoots out the line outside of the inside centre, the 10 dummies and passes to the 12 through the now open gap. Great support play from Rowe sees him under the sticks

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:16

McLelland looks a level above at the moment...then he kicks the ball straight out on the full

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:24

Ireland got a scrum about 10m in from the touchline. 8 picks up, Scotland 9 bites. Scotland wing bites on the Irish 9 and the Irish wing goes in. Scotland 8 slides across and catches the diving wing above the shoulder. Gets away with it but Ireland get a try. Great conversion from the Irish 10.

38-24

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:30

Penalty kicked to the 5m line by McLelland. Maul collapsed by the Irish. Pick and go for quite a number of phases. Finally Scotland 8 sneaks over. Irish captain (8) yellow carded for maul collapse.

45-24

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:34

Irish get the restart. Wing kicks along and the ball is shepherded into touch at the 5m line. Scotland take too long at the line-out and the ref gives a free kick. Rowe makes a tackle and does not roll. Gets yellow carded.

Ireland use space to score.

45-29

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:37

Hazel Sapling wrote:McLelland looks a level above at the moment...then he kicks the ball straight out on the full

Considering he's barely out of school he's a very exciting prospect - very much the Finn Russell style of fly-half. Could be a bench option for Edinburgh next season.

by No9 Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:45

Ok, not specifically about your Tour guys, but have you seen this..

Danny Wilson: Ex-Blues coach to snub Wasps for Scotland switch [BBC]
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44458557

Personally, I would have had him as the Ospreys coach before Allen Clarke.

by **NeilyBroon** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 16:47

Brutal - Wasps could really have done with a good forwards coach.

From a Scotland perspective good news though.

by Hazel Sapling Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 17:05

Final score 45-29

6 converted tries to Irelands 4.

Ref probably favoured Scotland a bit with some decisions. Happens.

The younger Graham, the wings, McLelland and the starting hooker all had sparks. The 9 was fairly good as well.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 17:07

Good win for the Scottish boys.

by **BigGee** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 17:08

Great result for the U20s, they have been playing well and it finally looks like they got it together against Ireland. They can relax into their last game whilst it will be squeaky bum time for the Irish. Am looking forward to seeing the highlights when I get home from work tonight.

Danny Wilson appointment all but confirmed.

That is quite a coup for Scotland.

Tough on Carl Hogg but Toonie shows that once again, behind the jovial exterior, he can be a pretty ruthless operator. I am sure that Dai Young at Wasps probably feels the same way as well. He knows what he wants and clearly feels that DW will bring something extra to the Scottish pack. DW may well have liked what he sees in the Scotland setup and fancies being a part of it.

by **RDW** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 17:09

Great win for Scotland - hugely important that we stay in the top table. Pressure is off to try and secure a 9th place finish.

What has happened to Ireland??

by jimbopip Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 17:13

The scrum half position is really interesting now; Toonie made a point of saying that when they changed the half backs against Canada things really improved. I think SHC has more to worry about there than Rhuaridh. SHC probably slipped down a place or two in the 9 pecking order whereas Jackson filled in competently at 12 and reinforced his credentials as a handy squad player.

George Horne most likely starts against the Trumpettes with Shiel on the bench, he will need a run out in case he has to bench against Los Pumas. If Shiel has a good last 20 on Sunday then he might even bench the following week. This tour is showing us some youngsters who are desperate to force their way into the reckoning (Carmichael, Ritchie, Bradbury, Turner) but it will also show us some players who have had their last chance. SHC could be one of them, HP will always be a good 9, Aldi Price is still developing and his brainfarts at Cardiff have obviously knocked him off his stride but will come good again. SHC has just been let go by Cockers and could be drifting out of the Scotland set up.

For this week's game I think we will see

9. Horne
10. Hastings
12. Horne
13. Harris
11. Kinghorne
15. Hogg
14. McGuigan

Replacements; Shiel, Taylor (Bennett if Spacey's not fit) Jackson.

by **RDW** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 17:45

I'm not sure why people are writing off SHC already after what was a competent performance, albeit not setting the heather alight. Especially given Horne the younger is yet to make his international debut.

SHC is an experienced pro now and is a different kind of 9 from what we already have in Price and Horne, and offers more of a threat than Laidlaw (he set up some cracking tries for Edinburgh this season). Moving to the Scarlets could be the making of him that moves him onto the next level. It might also break him and leave him out in the wilderness, in which case we'll have to look at other options.

Ali Price is a prime example of being wary of a young player with a rapid rise, as is happening with Horne - the world cup is still a long way away and a lot could happen between now and then.

Personally I think Sheil should only be emergency cover - the lad hasn't even made his pro debut yet. SHC and Horne to be in the squad for the next two games.

by **RDW** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 17:49

Also, given Price came on when Canada were on their knees and had been battered for 60 minutes he should be upping the tempo!

by jimbopip Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 17:58

RDW, I won't disagree with you on any point except the "emergency cover" bit.

If Shiel doesn't play this week and then either Horne or SHC pull a hamstring in the warm up before kick off then he's on the bench. Better to bench this week and then be emergency cover, you really don't want someone making their debut in the bear pit that is Argentina away.

by **RDW** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 18:17

Personally I think the benefit of giving Horne and SHC more gametime this weekend outweighs the potential risk that one of them gets injured. Price injury aside 9 is probably the least confrontational position so the chances of them getting injured are fairly low.

Even if one does get injured against USA Shiel will only be on the bench for what is still just a friendly, and worst comes to worst SHC or Horne are capable of an 80 minute shift.

by jimbopip Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 18:24

RDW_Scotland wrote:9 is probably the least confrontational position so the chances of them getting injured are fairly low.Not according to Connor Murray it's not.

Even if one does get injured against USA Shiel will only be on the bench for what is still just a friendly, and worst comes to worst SHC or Horne are capable of an 80 minute shift. Possibly, but there's no point in flying him out and not playing him.

by highland_scot Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 18:25

jimbopip wrote:

9. Horne
10. Hastings
12. Horne
13. Harris
11. Kinghorne
15. Hogg
14. McGuigan

Replacements; Shiel, Taylor (Bennett if Spacey's not fit) Jackson.

I was about to berate you for putting Hogg on the wing to accommodate Byron, until I realised that consecutive numbers are so last year...

by **RDW** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 18:27

jimbopip wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:9 is probably the least confrontational position so the chances of them getting injured are fairly low.Not according to Connor Murray it's not.

Even if one does get injured against USA Shiel will only be on the bench for what is still just a friendly, and worst comes to worst SHC or Horne are capable of an 80 minute shift. Possibly, but there's no point in flying him out and not playing him.

There is a point if he's just covering injury and there for the experience!

by **BigGee** Tue 12 Jun 2018 - 18:36

I don't see Sheil getting any game time unless there are more injuries. He is there for the experience, hold some tackle bags and to provide some emergency cover. He has not played a single minute of professional rugby yet.

They likely picked him as he had been playing sevens and so was probably pretty fit. Most of the other SQ SHs had likely been on the beach for the past few weeks.

by reallybored Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 0:08

At least they didn't call up Fowles.

Wonder if Vellacott was approached again.

by **RDW** Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 8:43

So the Danny Wilson move seems to be a done deal. Got to admit I'd never heard of him before now, but having looked at the comments about him he certainly seems to be a well respected coach who has done a great job at the Blues on fairly limited resources. He seems to be in the Townsend mould too - innovative and not afraid to do things differently.

We are having to pay compensation to Wasps but that should be offset by what we are receiving for McFarlend - having played hardball with Ulster previously I suspect he'll be off after the summer tour. It's in no one's best interests to keep him in Scotland and with Wilson coming there's no need to - assuming we get compensation!

by **NeilyBroon** Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 9:47

RDW_Scotland wrote:So the Danny Wilson move seems to be a done deal. Got to admit I'd never heard of him before now, but having looked at the comments about him he certainly seems to be a well respected coach who has done a great job at the Blues on fairly limited resources. He seems to be in the Townsend mould too - innovative and not afraid to do things differently.

We are having to pay compensation to Wasps but that should be offset by what we are receiving for McFarlend - having played hardball with Ulster previously I suspect he'll be off after the summer tour. It's in no one's best interests to keep him in Scotland and with Wilson coming there's no need to - assuming we get compensation!

Yeah I think it should balance out.

Regarding Hogg, would this be a good chance for him to get involved in the Glasgow set-up? I have a feeling the SRU wanted to test the water with that in mind, as surely they're not completely blind to the fact that the Glasgow pack get minced almost every game. Anything would be an improvement from Humphreys.

by jimbopip Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 14:37

jimbopip wrote:The scrum half position is really interesting now; Toonie made a point of saying that when they changed the half backs against Canada things really improved. I think SHC has more to worry about there than Rhuaridh. SHC probably slipped down a place or two in the 9 pecking order whereas Jackson filled in competently at 12 and reinforced his credentials as a handy squad player.

For this week's game I think we will see

9. Horne
10. Hastings
12. Horne
13. Harris
11. Kinghorne
15. Hogg
14. McGuigan

Replacements; Shiel, Taylor (Bennett if Spacey's not fit) Jackson.

Interestingly the SRU's Facebook page told us the team would be out at 2:30, but now it has been put back to 3:15.

I still think that the above will be the backs, but if Spacey's fit he'll start instead of Harris.

by Leander Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 15:21

Scotland team to play USA, BBVA Compass Stadium, Houston, Texas
Saturday 16 June, kick-off 8pm local time (Sunday 2am UK time) – live on BBC

15. Stuart Hogg CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors) – 60 caps

14. Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh) – 3 caps
13. Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors) – 4 caps
12. Pete Horne VICE CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors) – 33 caps
11. Byron McGuigan (Sale Sharks) – 4 caps

10. Adam Hastings (Glasgow Warriors) – 1 cap
9. George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped

1. Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) – 9 caps
2. George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 16 caps
4. Lewis Carmichael (Edinburgh) – 1 cap
5. Ben Toolis (Edinburgh) – 10 caps
6. Tim Swinson VICE CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors) – 36 caps
7. Luke Hamilton (unattached) – 2 caps
8. Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped

Substitutes
16. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 32 caps
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh) – 11 caps
18. Murray McCallum (Edinburgh) – 2caps
19. Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh) – 23 caps
20. David Denton (Leicester Tigers) – 40 caps
21. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Scarlets) – 10 caps
22. Mark Bennett (Edinburgh) – 21 caps
23. Dougie Fife (Edinburgh) – 6 caps

by **RDW** Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 15:27

Looks like the forwards have had the tombola treatment this time!

by Eejit Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 15:32

RDW_Scotland wrote:Looks like the forwards have had the tombola treatment this time!

Quite.

Backs looking quite tasty though. Hoping for a good game for Hastings so that he nails down that 10 shirt at Glasgow next season.

by Leander Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 15:33

RDW_Scotland wrote:Looks like the forwards have had the tombola treatment this time!

I am extremely unconvinced by Swinson at 6 - makes more sense to play Carmichael there.

Overall, it's a good team, I suspect the plan will be similar as against Canada. Lineout drives, big scrums, etc.

by jimbopip Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 15:34

If I was Tim Swinson I'd be concerned. Looks like he's slipping down the pecking order.

Mind you we could end up with

10. P Horne
12 Grigg
13. Bennett.

Lots of pace and flair, but not the biggest three quarters you'll ever see.

by **BigGee** Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 15:36

There or there about as expected.

As ever with Toonie, a few curve balls though. Swinson into the back row, presumably to add a bit more bite and dog, with so many decent second row options now, Tiny Tim may well find that might be the only place left for him. He might become the utility player every WC squad needs.

Back line looks very solid. Pete Horne alongside AH to give him a bit of support. With Bennett and Fife on the bench, you would imagine they will be playing the entire game baring any injuries.

George Horne and Matt Fagerson get their first caps. Carmichael gets his first start, all very well deserved.

A pretty solid bench to come on later on as well, especially in the pack. It is going to be hot and humid, so they will all be needed.

Dougie Fife will get on at some stage, a chance to show he still has some international credentials in the bank.

by reallybored Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 16:15

Would have expected Carmichael and Swinson the other way round due to the former's superior dynamism but may be they want to see how the set-piece fairs with Carmichael in the engine-room, possible bolter for RWC squad?

Fagerson surely isn't big enough to play 8 at Test level but he's possibly got the best ball-skills of those selected in back-row.

Shame Taylor isn't involved.

Concerned about the lack of experience in the back-row and half-back, don't think the US will be easy beats at home.

by Leander Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 16:19

reallybored wrote:Would have expected Carmichael and Swinson the other way round due to the former's superior dynamism but may be they want to see how the set-piece fairs with Carmichael in the engine-room, possible bolter for RWC squad?

Fagerson surely isn't big enough to play 8 at Test level but he's possibly got the best ball-skills of those selected in back-row.

Shame Taylor isn't involved.

Concerned about the lack of experience in the back-row and half-back, don't think the US will be easy beats at home.

Worth remembering his still only 19. Doesn't turn 20 til next month, so plenty of time to fill out a bit more if he needs to. He and Bradbury (either playing 6 or 8) alongside Watson/Ritchie/Crosbie/Hamilton at 7 would make a formidable post-RWC backrow.

by Hazel Sapling Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 17:56

Strange Swinson selection. Carmichael would be better at 6...then again the big difference is in the scrums and I would rather have Carmichael in there than Swinson. Why not play Fagerson at 6 and Denton at 8?

Good side otherwise. Hamilton to Glasgow?

by **BigGee** Wed 13 Jun 2018 - 18:00

Toonie, as ever, just trying a few things out.

Swinson will bring a ferocious workrate wherever he plays. Let him have his chance in the backrow, he has played there before.

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