Ulster Rugby 2017-2018 Part 2

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Carberry is 22, McPhillips is 21. Is this talk about sticking with McPhillips and hoping he turns out to be a gem maybe a tad naive? Carberry at a year older is being talked about as though he was the second coming and all this despite Sexton and Byrne and a whole backline of stellar players potentially blocking him. By contrast, it's almost as if we only know the name of McPhillips because we had no choice. A year ago the thinking was Jackson and Nelson. We then were saying Cooney can play 10 a bit. Then we signed Lealifano. Surely if McPhillips was the hot prospect, the coaches would have featured him more before Lealifano left.
In fact during Leanlifano's time here wasn't Nelson the preferred bench 10, and indeed started 3 games at 10 before Christmas, but then got injured?

Not meaning to be super negative, I hope I'm wrong. Cooney is a perfect example of a player suddenly shining from nowhere. I guess Ulster coaches know better than me if he's a real prospect worth thrusting into the limelight or not.

Interesting snippet from Dan McFarland on BBC Sports website. Says his focus at the moment is "off the ball behaviours" - i.e. workrate and discipline in their structures. The free-floating attacking will come, but it's not his current concern which is the foundations - players working for their team-mates.

Wonder where he might have picked up some of those ideas

https://twitter.com/dan10mcfarland/status/1024306976447254528

I don't care if they were scrawled on a bus shelter. Some kind of coherent plan for improvements is a massive improvement on Kiss/Doak.

He read the whole book in a day? Don't he have work to do?

Don Alfonso wrote:I don't care if they were scrawled on a bus shelter. Some kind of coherent plan for improvements is a massive improvement on Kiss/Doak.

It's strange, I saw the Worcester players have been praising Doaks work there as attack coach, think the word innovative was used. Maybe Ulster just has a certain affect on people

Ulster A team to play Scarlets A, Celtic Cup Round 2, Friday 14th September at Shaw's Bridge (7.00pm):

(15-9): Iwan Hughes*, Robert Baloucoune*, Jack Owens, James Hume*, Aaron Sexton, Michael Lowry (C)*, Graham Curtis*;

(1-8): Peter Cooper, Peter Cromie, Paul McGookin, Matthew Dalton*, Bradley Luney, Clive Ross, Matthew Agnew*, Joe Dunleavy*.

Replacements: Claytan Milligan, Tommy O'Hagan, Michael Cromie, Jack Regan*, Marcus Rea*, Aaron Hall*, Michael Stronge, Bruce Houston*.

* denotes Abbey Insurance Ulster Rugby Academy player

Michael Lowry captaining the side in his first competitive game, might be worth going along to see how he goes with all the hype around him

Scarlets team for the game, Steff Evans starts

marty2086 wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:I don't care if they were scrawled on a bus shelter. Some kind of coherent plan for improvements is a massive improvement on Kiss/Doak.

It's strange, I saw the Worcester players have been praising Doaks work there as attack coach, think the word innovative was used. Maybe Ulster just has a certain affect on people

Or maybe, for the most part, players praise their coaches. Or Worcester have different levels of expectation from their coach. Let's discuss how Doak's innovations have worked when they've won a game.

Don Alfonso wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:I don't care if they were scrawled on a bus shelter. Some kind of coherent plan for improvements is a massive improvement on Kiss/Doak.

It's strange, I saw the Worcester players have been praising Doaks work there as attack coach, think the word innovative was used. Maybe Ulster just has a certain affect on people

Or maybe, for the most part, players praise their coaches. Or Worcester have different levels of expectation from their coach. Let's discuss how Doak's innovations have worked when they've won a game.

Yeah they weren't too innovative against Sale, did remind me a lot of Ulster when they were camped on the line and just picking and going. Ended up going about 30 phrases 5 yards out then getting turned over

Southern Kings v ULSTER:

W Addison; C Gilroy, D Cave, S McCloskey, H Speight; B Burns, J Cooney;
A Warwick, R Herring, T O'Toole; A O'Connor, K Treadwell; M Coetzee, S Reidy, N Timoney.

Subs: A McBurney, E O'Sullivan, W Herbst, J Deysel, M Rea, D Shanahan, A Curtis, A Kernohan.

So much for rotaion, going to be interesting to see what happens with a 5 day turnaround against Cheetahs at altitude.

Cant see many of starting 15 making it through given 8 have started 3 consecutive games already

Maybe they are picking their spot. Think they are more likely to beat Kings away and so throwing the resources at that.

Even with a handful of changes I think we could still do that, resting Coetzee and one from Addison and Gilroy and another from Cooney and Burns and bringing in Deysel along with Kernohan and Stewart or McPhillips

Maybe they will go for 5 points against the Kings and hope a changed team can take something from the Cheetahs with a full strength team going to Thomond to do the same with hopefully Rory, Henderson and Murphy coming back in

This is horrible to watch. The drop off since cooney went off is shocking. There has to be a better scrum half than Shanahan in the province.

Why the hell do ulster insist on kicking the ball when they have advantage? There is no direction from the half backs. I'm about to smash the TV.

I'm sorry right but why are Shanahan and Nelson still professional players for us?

Johnny Stewart I saw at the game. Unless he's injured he should be on the bench. Frankly we could play Cave at 9 and we'd have more.

Nelson as well, he's confidence is shot. Gilroy to 15 and Keroghan or anyone, just f***ing anyone else into the backline. At least with a young player there's the chance they might develop as a result of the opportunity.

Totally agree Redman. When I heard Addison was out I thought it would be nice to see Gilroy at full back. But not to be.

Sorry but the idea there was a drop off once Cooney went off is just silly, Ulster were pretty poor even before that. Rucks have been constantly under resourced on the few occasions Ulster haven't decided to offload for the sake of offloading

Hahaha, the ref is comedy gold dust.

I’d like to see Kernohan, Curtis and Rea start against Cheetahs.

Cheetahs may well be the easiest away trip of the season looking at the opening three rounds so it's probably worth a go.

I found that ref genuinely funny with the warnings and further warnings followed by yet more warnings. The one person that needed yellow carding most was himself.
Shanahan is utter gash but that wasn't his worst performance. He is still bloody dreadful though.

The ref was possibly worse than the one last week. O'Connor's yellow was the TMO looking for a reason to disallow the try and then the referee went yellow and the TMO suddenly panicked telling him he should look at it again. Even with a 2nd look he still got it wrong.

Kings discipline was a disgrace. It was a discredit to the league.

Ignoring all of that though, Ulster were sh*t. Coetzee had his best game yet and was basically the difference. Try, crucial turn over just before half time and I expect our most carries and tackles.

Cave saved us a few times in defence.

Burns was ok in the first 20-25 mins and then fell off the pace badly. Kept taking the ball static. Will need to rewatch to see if that was him, the 9 or both. Like McPhillips at the end of last season, Curtis seemed to offer more with his brief cameo (albeit against a tiring Kings side).

Scrum was both terrible and then encouraging in that order. The worry is O'Toole I guess. 2nd half with O'Sullivan, Herring and Herbst looked very good.

Lineout was a serious concern.

Timoney I didn't think did much. Good decision to take him off.

Treadwell did fairly well in the loose. Got through a lot of work.

After 3 rounds, only one team is yet to pick up any kind of bonus point, can see that biting us in the backside come the end of the season

Today - yes that's a let down Marty but against Scarlets and Edinburgh we aren't and weren't good enough for 5 points. We were lucky to get the wins against good opposition.

I'm labouring the point I know but ........ Shanahan's box kicking today. Twice he looked, saw no runners and kicked anyway. And on another 2 occasions, put in poor kicks with runners.

One of those occasions you could see Speight start his run and then give up midway through when he realised he wasn't going to get near the ball or the player.

Chat on other forums is O'Sullivan should now be our starting loosehead. It's hard to argue against that but is a sign of a) how he's come from basically nowhere and b) how little is thought of Warwick.

Redman wrote:I'm labouring the point I know but ........ Shanahan's box kicking today.  Twice he looked, saw no runners and kicked anyway.  And on another 2 occasions, put in poor kicks with runners.  

One of those occasions you could see Speight start his run and then give up midway through when he realised he wasn't going to get near the ball or the player.  

Chat on other forums is O'Sullivan should now be our starting loosehead.  It's hard to argue against that but is a sign of a) how he's come from basically nowhere and b) how little is thought of Warwick.  

He also tried to dart off the back of two scrums close to the Kings line. The first time he lost the ball, we were fortunate that Kings knocked on so we got a second bite. Then the next scrum Shanahan tries to dart again.....

He's not up to it.

Cooney’s head!

It's a theme with Ulster in recent years though, there have been a lack of bonus points. Bonus points cost Ulster a play off spot two years ago. If you are constantly coughing the ball up you will struggle to get 4 tries in a game

On Wawick I think his scrummaging is pretty good but he isn't overly dynamic in the loose though he did look to offer a bit more there last week

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Redman wrote:I'm labouring the point I know but ........ Shanahan's box kicking today.  Twice he looked, saw no runners and kicked anyway.  And on another 2 occasions, put in poor kicks with runners.  

One of those occasions you could see Speight start his run and then give up midway through when he realised he wasn't going to get near the ball or the player.  

Chat on other forums is O'Sullivan should now be our starting loosehead.  It's hard to argue against that but is a sign of a) how he's come from basically nowhere and b) how little is thought of Warwick.  

He also tried to dart off the back of two scrums close to the Kings line.  The first time he lost the ball, we were fortunate that Kings knocked on so we got a second bite.  Then the next scrum Shanahan tries to dart again.....

He's not up to it.

There were too many doing that though, not enough support across the park that's meant to be one of the things McFarland has said he's working on but a lack of vision and communication there today

I think all the bad bits have been highlighted about today's game, so here are two things I really liked.
When Kernohan scored I liked the way Speight grabbed him looked him straight in the eye as if he was telling the young lad that he belongs and hes made for this level. Nice touch (although I have no idea what he actually said, could have f been telling him it's his round in the bar)
And Curtis has hit the gym over the summer, and love his enthusiasm he throws himself into everything

On Kernohan, from what little I've seen of him he seems to have some intelligence about his play. His try yesterday he made a great run to exploit the space, against Wasps he moved in behind a maul and drew a defender with him and shot back to the short side to exploit the space he had created.

On him and Speight, in his interview on getting the academy contract he name checked Speight and how he was working with him as are Gilroy and others

Ulster top of the conference and only undefeated team left who would have thought.

While TBPs help, wins are better for the team. Con B is looking tight for 2nd and 3rd and looks a 4 horse race. Will stand Ulster well Having to play their best each week to not lose ground

I have to say that was by far the worst performance by two professional teams I've ever witnessed.

Cooney, Reidy and Coetzee apart that was appalling. The coaching team must have been tearing their hair out.

Think you're being quite harsh rodders, think the problem is across the board and almost systematic. Guys getting isolated constantly and offloading for the sake of offloading isn't just individuals not performing it's what they've been coached to do

Ah Marty the breakdown work was non existent as was the maul defense.

Between the 2 sides I lost count of the handling errors, it was almost a comedy at times, it was like watching 10 year old's playing touch rugby with a bar of soap.

rodders wrote: it was like watching 10 year old's playing touch rugby with a bar of soap.

Interesting game! What Network shows that League??

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote: it was like watching 10 year old's playing touch rugby with a bar of soap.

Interesting game!  What Network shows that League??

Sky Sports Action, they have that and the Lions tours.

Sky trailblazing again They always put their competitors to shame.

Ulster team to play Toyota Cheetahs, Guinness PRO14 Round 4, Friday 21st September, Toyota Stadium (7.15pm SA time/ 6.15pm BST):
(15-9): W Addison; C Gilroy, H Speight, S McCloskey, A Kernohan; B Burns, D Shanahan;
(1-8): E O'Sullivan, R Herring (captain), W Herbst, A O'Connor, K Treadwell, M Rea, S Reidy, M Coetzee;
Replacements (16-23): J Andrew, A Warwick, T O'Toole, J Deysel, N Timoney, J Stewart, A Curtis, D Cave.

Glad O'Sullivan gets a chance.

Overall though not too impressed by that team. Just feels like a lack of forward planning. Coetzee forth game in a row, feels risky. Burns again. Shanahan ........ Lord help us.

I know people will be happy that we're targeting a win and youngsters like Kernohan and O'Sullivan are getting a chance. Just feels like we're planning week to week rather than looking to build for a season.

We're 1 or 2 injuries away from complete disaster and rather than try and manage that, sort of looks like we're willing to risk that game by game just to get a win.

Been suggested that maybe we will be following Ospreys lead and maybe write off the trip to Thomond and rotate a fair bit for it

Saying that though we may have Murphy and Henderson back for that game, maybe even Stockdale too depending where he's at with his recovery and Rorys hoping to be back for Connacht

With rotation we could possibly field the below team

Addison; Gilroy/Speight, Cave, McCloskey/Curtis, Stockdale/Kernohan; Curtis/McPhillips, Cooney;
O'Sullivan, Herring, Herbst, O'Connor, Henderson, Deysel, Reidy, Murphy;

Redman wrote:
Overall though not too impressed by that team.  Just feels like a lack of forward planning.  Coetzee forth game in a row, feels risky.  Burns again.  Shanahan ........ Lord help us.  

I know people will be happy that we're targeting a win and youngsters like Kernohan and O'Sullivan are getting a chance.  Just feels like we're planning week to week rather than looking to build for a season.  

We're 1 or 2 injuries away from complete disaster and rather than try and manage that, sort of looks like we're willing to risk that game by game just to get a win.  

Agree with that. The lack of depth in some positions is just scary for a professional outfit. Shananan especially is way out of his depth at this level.

When we are missing even a few front liners - Hendo, Best, Marshall, Cooney, Stockdale - some of the back ups are really woeful by comparison. That's a quality back row but that's about the only thing to be positive about with that selection.

Coetzee's game time has been planned to increase, culminating in the full match against the Kings - this one he will be replaced by Timoney (who will be needed for the last quarter anyway).
Good to see Speight move to centre with the emergence of Kernohan and the return of Addison - Cave has to be managed as has McCloskey
Burns needs time to build his understanding with the players around him and thus far he hasn't made any monumental howlers. He is after all completely removed from his comfort zone and is doing OK.
Shanahan doesn't have that excuse and it was painfully obvious that he was trying to make statements without realising nobody else was listening. This game could go a long way to establish the pecking order for the bench when Cooney returns.

Of all the conference A sides that Ulster play away, this fixture is the one to target. The Cheetahs are weakened and Ulster are relatively strong. Ulster have some momentum and the Cheetahs have none. Why shouldn't McFarland throw the dice and try to establish some patterns with his new players?

marty2086 wrote:Been suggested that maybe we will be following Ospreys lead and maybe write off the trip to Thomond and rotate a fair bit for it

Saying that though we may have Murphy and Henderson back for that game, maybe even Stockdale too depending where he's at with his recovery and Rorys hoping to be back for Connacht

With rotation we could possibly field the below team

Addison; Gilroy/Speight, Cave, McCloskey/Curtis, Stockdale/Kernohan; Curtis/McPhillips, Cooney;
O'Sullivan, Herring, Herbst, O'Connor, Henderson, Deysel, Reidy, Murphy;

Cheetahs and Munster away are both tough games. No doubt.

Personally I'd have rotated for Cheetahs away. We're short of players as is, we'll be playing at altitude and we're a 5 day turn around from the Kings game. I can see us trying to win Cheetahs and losing, and then trying to win against Munster to rebound .... and losing as well. Very few points and a lot of very tired players.

If we do get those Irish internationals back for Munster and rotate some more for Munster we can still put out a strong team that can do a job and then take a good run at Connacht and Leicester

The Great Aukster wrote:
Burns needs time to build his understanding with the players around him and thus far he hasn't made any monumental howlers. He is after all completely removed from his comfort zone and is doing OK.

He hasn't but so far the quality of his ability to pull the strings in attack has been fairly underwhelming compared to his recent predecessors, who all looked a lot more threatening and creative with the ball.

Granted he doesn't have the stand of players around him that we've had in the past, like Piatau, Payne, Trimble and Bowe but still would be expecting a bit more from him.

Craig Gilroy out tonight due to rib injury. Cave comes in to centre with Speight moving to wing.

Addison is out again. Nelson at full back. Whoopee do.

Defence is optional in the first 5 minutes.