The Rugby Championship

First topic message reminder :

It starts again tomorrow. As ever the interest will wane quickly if the ABs resume their usual dismantling of all opposition. They look extremely strong with Retallick and Whitelock back in harness. Their strength in depth at 10 is frightening. The Aussies do have Pocock back, but hard to look beyond another comfortable AB win.

Argentina away in SA will be interesting I think. SA look like they are improving and Argentina play some good rugby - one to watch I think.

Hoping that somebody pushes the ABs and an Aussie win tomorrow would be the perfect tonic for the tournament, however unlikely that is.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's todd's  choice not the club's.
Or indeed nz following their own policy.

Regardless he wont be playing and its not a decision for the future either. Mitre 10 has a couple of 7's worth looking at.

We have also established that any team that loses key players including NewZealand are more likely to lose when they may not expect to.

I was`nt referring to Todd he is indeed in japan,BUT someone mentioned Vermeulen who is also in
Japan.IF thats the case and he`s back in Europe then maybe Dagg/Todd is available too,Todd not
World class?he turned down big money in Europe to Re-sign for Crusaders/NZ for a RWC slot "shag"
praised him for it.
IF he was qualified for England he`d be starting straight off the boat.

Collapse2005 wrote:We have also established that any team that loses key players including NewZealand are more likely to lose when they may not expect to.

Ireland can take the number one spot should the ABs lose to Ireland and Oz or England so be an interesting world cup if Ireland go into it as number one ranked...ooooh the expectations, the pressure Time of the year probably couldnt be worse for NH sides either. What will they do between Feb and September with no June series?

Canes obviously out but Saveas ok there. I believe we'll have Retallick back. Still waiting on a few props and Coles needs to reclaim his spot as far as Im concerned. Taylor will be up there with Marx based on this years performances.

I think Hansen will use the same tactics as Dublin vs England and Ireland, especially if sides can't contain that continuous clear out on the line that worked against the Boks. For me Tokyo is still the banana peel match. Seems we lose more of those one offs than anything else.

So again no club can stop a player joining an international team if called up in an international window whichever player you were focusing on Alan. So you're wrong.

I did offer you a bit of leeway in regards your definition of world class. But todd is stretching it too far! You're grasping at reasons why you're a plastic again.

Collapse2005 wrote:We have also established that any team that loses key players including NewZealand are more likely to lose when they may not expect to.

What’s going on with Murray at the moment?

Heard he’s injured or is missing games but no one knows why.

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:We have also established that any team that loses key players including NewZealand are more likely to lose when they may not expect to.

Ireland can take the number one spot should the ABs lose to Ireland and Oz or England so be an interesting world cup if Ireland go into it as number one ranked...ooooh the expectations, the pressure Time of the year probably couldnt be worse for NH sides either. What will they do between Feb and September with no June series?

Canes obviously out but Saveas ok there. I believe we'll have Retallick back. Still waiting on a few props and Coles needs to reclaim his spot as far as Im concerned. Taylor will be up there with Marx based on this years performances.

I think Hansen will use the same tactics as Dublin vs England and Ireland, especially if sides can't contain that continuous clear out on the line that worked against the Boks. For me Tokyo is still the banana peel match. Seems we lose more of those one offs than anything else.

No June series doesnt help alright. Ireland have some warm up games against England and Wales I think. I think beating NZ would be much more important to Ireland than getting the number 1 spot.

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:We have also established that any team that loses key players including NewZealand are more likely to lose when they may not expect to.

What’s going on with Murray at the moment?

Heard he’s injured or is missing games but no one knows why.

Ireland are saving him for the World Cup final.

Not worried about Murray at all. He has an injury he doesnt want to talk about. Thats it really. Someone who knows their rights in a post GDPR Europe. If he is well enough to attend rugby matches Im sure he will be back soon enough.

I understand he may not want to talk about it. The fact he doesn’t would be a bit odd if it’s something minor. If it’s a non-rugby related issue then fair enough. Probably the case.

Collapse2005 wrote:No June series doesnt help alright. Ireland have some warm up games against England and Wales I think. I think beating NZ would be much more important to Ireland than getting the number 1 spot.

How on Gods earth do you come to that conclusion ? Ireland are on a good run at the minute, but to think they are as good as New Zealand is laughable.

New Zealand are where everybody should be aiming to be, there is not much between all the other nations, but New Zealand are far and away the best.

The way collapse/guns is harping on here, you would swear that Ireland are right up there with New Zealand, sorry but I just don't see it.

They are.

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:No June series doesnt help alright. Ireland have some warm up games against England and Wales I think. I think beating NZ would be much more important to Ireland than getting the number 1 spot.

How on Gods earth do you come to that conclusion ? Ireland are on a good run at the minute, but to think they are as good as New Zealand is laughable.

New Zealand are where everybody should be aiming to be, there is not much between all the other nations, but New Zealand are far and away the best.

The way collapse/guns is harping on here, you would swear that Ireland are right up there with New Zealand, sorry but I just don't see it.

How did you come to the conclusion that I think Ireland are as good as New Zealand? Are you a moron?

Ireland are in second place at the moment, NZ in first and deservedly so. Of course they are beatable and of course it would be Ireland's goal to try and beat them but until we go head to head with them in November we will remain in 2nd place Id imagine.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They are.

Do you reckon Ireland have surpassed England?

Form.in the last year certainly but I think england have the better team and squad overall. Makes a huge difference to the team when we can get billy vunipola on the pitch and actually fit. Watson is a huge loss as if may possibly if his injury is worse than feared.

Did somebody just say Matt Todd was world class???

Ireland are definitely better than England at the moment but if England can sort out their coaching teams and gain a bit of momentum they do have a good enough wider squad to challenge at the top. My view is that Ireland has a better first 15 at the moment particularly in the key positions but I am of course biased.

I think we'll see a clearer picture in the AIs and 6 nations. Quite pleased with the fixtures as england do need that yard stick to measure themselves away to ireland.

Collapse2005 wrote:Ireland are definitely better than England at the moment but if England can sort out their coaching teams and gain a bit of momentum they do have a good enough wider squad to challenge at the top. My view is that Ireland has a better first 15 at the moment particularly in the key positions but I am of course biased.

Not sure of better 15 but the Ireland 15 all though what they're doing, England don't at the minute. I think Ireland have a more rigid, stronger game plan from the off. Not sure how they'll cope if they go behind by a few but it's working currently.

Ireland, despite what the rankings say, are closer to all the 6N countries than they are to New Zealand.

The rankings can be a bit misleading, look at Wales, 3rd. They played an under strength South Africa, and a poor Argentina side in the summer.

If Ireland played New Zealand 10 times on the bounce, they would either lose them all, or win one. That's how it is, and it's the same for any other nation who plays them.

Don't get me wrong, their fans, and their players irk me with their better than you attitude, and how they get away with murder, but it is what it is, New Zealand are by far and away the best rugby nation by a long way at the moment, despite what the rankings say.

I agree the rankings need to be taken with a pinch of salt as.you say wales are no where near that level.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree the rankings need to be taken with a pinch of salt as.you say wales are no where near that level.

And Ireland are ?

Definitely. I'd agree with the comment above that they know exactly what to do and when to do it and perhaps a little too reliant on their pack. They've got some excellent young backs coming through that are grease lightening and full of flair. I expect them to get better.

So the rankings are to be taken with a pinch of salt for Wales, but they are nailed on for Ireland ?

Is this just a me thing, or a Welsh thing ? Because I think you are being deliberate here.

I might be a little one sided here, but there are not many Irish players I would swap the Welsh players with. Perhaps their props. Sexton, if he's not injured. But not many.

But I would take the whole New Zealand team in a heartbeat.

Yes it's quite possible to not believe the rankings are reflective of current ability but make a judgement yourself. Must be a you thing as I think that's a fairly simple point which part do you disagree with?
I love a joint team.for ireland wales I'd go (and I always forget someone)
Mcgrath best Furlong
Jones henderson
Sob leavy
Faletau
Murray Sexton
Stockdale aki ringrose earl
Williams.
Struggling on a 12 and right winger though. Sure there's someone ive forgotten.
Im being unfair with no bench as there's plenty of impact from the Welsh there.

LordDowlais wrote:So the rankings are to be taken with a pinch of salt for Wales, but they are nailed on for Ireland ?

Is this just a me thing, or a Welsh thing ? Because I think you are being deliberate here.

I might be a little one sided here, but there are not many Irish players I would swap the Welsh players with. Perhaps their props. Sexton, if he's not injured. But not many.

But I would take the whole New Zealand team in a heartbeat.

What are you whinging about? I never mentioned Wales once except to say that Ireland probably wouldn't want to face Wales (NZ, or Argentina) in the quarters. You could probably add England to that if they have a good Nov.

I do think Wales are probably the third best team in the world at the moment. However, Wales are about 5 ranking points behind Ireland but only a couple ahead of the teams behind them. Ireland are only 2 behind NZ. I think the rankings reflect the fact that Ireland and NZ have had good years and everyone else at best has been a bit patchy.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes it's quite possible to not believe the rankings are reflective of current ability but make a judgement yourself. Must be a you thing as I think that's a fairly simple point which part do you disagree with?
I love a joint team.for ireland wales I'd go (and I always forget someone)
Mcgrath best Furlong
Jones henderson
Sob leavy
Faletau
Murray Sexton
Stockdale aki ringrose earl
Williams.
Struggling on a 12 and right winger though. Sure there's someone ive forgotten.
Im being unfair with no bench as there's plenty of impact from the Welsh there.

I agree more or lee with this team but while I like AWJ a lot (big fan) I think James Ryan is a better player now than Jones. Id be tempted to pick North ahead of Earls and you could make a strong argument for Davies ahead of Ringrose. Other than that I think Ireland would have the Lions share of the players unless Gatland was selecting the team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yes it's quite possible to not believe the rankings are reflective of current ability but make a judgement yourself. Must be a you thing as I think that's a fairly simple point which part do you disagree with?
I love a joint team.for ireland wales I'd go (and I always forget someone)
Mcgrath best Furlong
Jones henderson
Sob leavy
Faletau
Murray Sexton
Stockdale aki ringrose earl
Williams.
Struggling on a 12 and right winger though. Sure there's someone ive forgotten.
Im being unfair with no bench as there's plenty of impact from the Welsh there.

So you would leave out the following Welsh players:-

Rhys Webb/Gareth Davies
George North
Leigh Halfpenny
Steff Evans
Jonathan Davies
Ken Owens
Ross Moriarty
Justin Tuperic


Im sorry, but I do not see the Irish players in their positions usurping the Welsh ones. Although I am biased. Murray is not better than his Welsh counterparts, different, but not better. Ireland's wingers and fullbacks are not as good as their Welsh counterparts, McGrath and Furlong maybe better than Rob Evans and Samson Lee, but the Welsh boys are still young. I would consider them. Best over Ken Owens, not now, maybe a year or two ago, but not now. Henderson I would have. SOB and Leavy not a snowballs chance in hell would they usurp the Welsh flankers.

Sorry I just do not see it, and none of them would be better than their All Blacks counterparts.

I was umming and ahhing about ryan.
North! Of.course he'd be in there knew there was.someone obvious.
Davies not for me now. Hard when people have been out injured to judge though. Ringrose will.be a serious player in years to come. Very hard to judge potential though. I'd give you that those could swing eiher way.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I was umming and ahhing about ryan.
North! Of.course he'd be in there knew there was.someone obvious.
Davies not for me now. Hard when people have been out injured to judge though.  Ringrose will.be a serious player in years to come. Very hard to judge potential though. I'd give you that those could swing eiher way.

What about Tuperic ? He is a better 7 than anything Ireland have at the minute. Also I forgot about the English league top try scorer Josh Adams.

I'll hold.my hand and say I missed North lord.I'll acknowledge most of them would be in with a shout bar Evans. Moriarty is a reasonable player but nowhere near a joint team for me.

Id probably have Jones and Ryan and drop Henderson to the bench but Jones has about a season left in him maybe less.

Owens, Moriarity and Evans wouldnt make the side. Moriarty would probably be 4th choice at best. Webb and Davies would get plenty of game time from the bench. Halfpenny, maybe 4 years ago.

Love tipuric but leavy is better imo. Adams is good.but I couldn't leave Stockdale out for him. Maybe in place of North. I'd hAve williams at full back over halfpenny but if you prefer defence there again you could swap williams for north.

So the Boks won’t have Faf for the AIs because of a request from Sale. The NH clubs strike again eh.

Collapse2005 wrote:Id probably have Jones and Ryan and drop Henderson to the bench but Jones has about a season left in him maybe less.

Owens, Moriarity and Evans wouldnt make the side. Moriarty would probably be 4th choice at best. Webb and Davies would get plenty of game time from the bench. Halfpenny, maybe 4 years ago.

I'm sorry, but I just do not see where the Irish flankers would be able to usurp an area of strength for Wales.

Justin Tipuric
James Davies
Aaron Shingler
Ross Moriarty
Ollie Griffiths
Olly Cracknell
Dan Lydiate
Ellis Jenkins
Josh Navidi

With much more coming through, I know I could have tinted glasses on for some positions, but come on ?

Again ebop. If sa and de.klerk want him to play for south Africa sale have no choice in the matter.

Move it to a thread of its own lord and see what people say.

ebop wrote:So the Boks won’t have Faf for the AIs because of a request from Sale. The NH clubs strike again eh.

Its pretty unusual that a player is not released for the whole November window. The only reason he isn't available is because South Africa made an agreement with Sale not to release him for November. Seems pretty short sighted of the SARU, no?

Probably don’t want to burn bridges with Sale when SARU make a request in future for out of window access. Unfortunate because Faf is a good little player and makes a difference.

Absolutely ebop. It.sounds as if they came to an agreement over additional contact with him in the championship in turn for not picking him in November. It's trusting by sale as they have no say now. Agree he's a cracking player.

Surely the rugby championship isn't outside the international window. I wonder did Sale release Faf before the rugby championship started for training camps or something?

It wont make much difference anyway as SA tend to be poor in November regardless.

They could have called him back for the fallow week or 2 in the middle.

Because it`s outside the Test window,the clubs decide who to release,BUT IF they release home team
players.They should release touring sides members too apparently there are no important club fixtures
on those dates.
NZ are not weakened because they have never picked players based abroad,Aus,Argentina,SA have
which in my opinion is the reason they are not as strong as once were.
My opinion is as valid as any here the plastic bits wearing thin my loyalties my own business 7.5
Sgt Pooley IF you think Todd is less than World class you know even less about Rugby than I
thought.The most consistent player i`ve seen NEVER has a bad game at any level was good enough
fpr Crusaders to play RM at 6.No doubt this idea of yours matches the AB weak Scrum theory.
More pertinent what do people think of NH AI chances?

I doubt SA would have agreed to the deal if they weren't comfortable with Faf not playing in November and giving another player a run out.

alanmackie6 wrote:Because it`s outside the Test window,the clubs decide who to release,BUT IF they release home team
players.They should release touring sides members too apparently there are no important club fixtures
on those dates.
NZ are not weakened because they have never picked players based abroad,Aus,Argentina,SA have
which in my opinion is the reason they are not as strong as once were.
My opinion is as valid as any here the plastic bits wearing thin my loyalties my own business 7.5
Sgt Pooley IF you think Todd is less than World class you know even less about Rugby than I
thought.The most consistent player i`ve seen NEVER has a bad game at any level was good enough
fpr Crusaders to play RM at 6.No doubt this idea of yours matches the AB weak Scrum theory.
More pertinent what do people think of NH AI chances?

Only one of their November tests is outside the international window, I think the one with England. The others aren't however SA agreed with Sale not to call him up for the other tests because of a deal they struck re the rugby championship. I can only assume that Sale let Faf go for a period outside the international window during rugby championship training camps. Quid pro quo.

Plastic does get thin. Why should clubs release players outside of an international window simply because the prl and rfu have an agreed deal? Doing that would mean that the rfu simply cancel the deal.
What is your definition of world class? It seems to be 'has played for an international team before a guy not even deemed a proper 7 is chosen ahead of them'.

Rankings are nothing more than a guideline to recent results.

There is only one fact that matters, New Zealand is by far the best team in the world.

Everyone else has a lot of improvement to do before even thinking about being the best.

Ireland has had a very good run of success, and the rankings reflect those results.

I would suggest based on recent results they have a voice in saying they are the team chasing New Zealand.

But lets be honest, the rest are inconsistent, pathetic in the way they capitulate when in a position to win, inconsistent from one half to the other, capable of being extremely dire one moment and then brilliant the next.

Real quality international depth is not something teams can really crow about.

Only team with depth is New Zealand, and hence the reason they consistently perform.

We all need better coaching structures, some struggle to retain players, some struggle with continuity of intellectual nouse and transfer of knowledge of experienced players.

I know SA has a major problem from their Provincial teams up, they are not only being depleted of player stock going where the money is, but they are also being depleted from an experience point of view.

Our experienced players are transferring their knowledge and being examples to follow to European clubs whilst we have an ever dwindling resource of professionals to follow.

It is actually quite pathetic.

Cant say I disagree really. Its true that everyone is behind New Zealand who are still a good bit ahead, I say they are more than 2 ranking points ahead of Ireland. Yes NZ have great players but for me their advantage is their structures from the top to the bottom are all very good rather than overwhelmingly more depth than everyone else. NZ still suffer from missing key players as all teams do, maybe not as much but its still a factor.

Id say England and SA could put out three international quality sides if they rounded up all their players. However, neither side have the right structures in place and are being hampered by the challenges that their structures face. In England there is no joined up thinking between the PRL and RFU and in SA politics and player emigration is holding them back.

I think the only side that has professional structures in place top to bottom to rival the highly organised, professional and structured holistic approach to rugby is Ireland and that's why NZ and Ireland are doing so well. James Lowe has said commented in interviews of the highly professional set up in Leinster and how it is better resourced and organised than the sides he has been involved with in NZ. Under the IRFU during the professional era the Ireland team and provinces have become very very organised.

Ireland is beneffiting from the woe that has besieged SA, Australia and England.

Much like NZ is currently. Not really anyone that can challenge them..

I think people are giving too much weight to the actual ranking points.

They mean squat when considering no team plays the same opposition in a specific cycle, many teams pick certain matches to not put their best squads out.

Weather, injuries etc all play a role in whether you beat a team by less or more than 15 points which makes a big difference in rankings.

Thus the rankings for me is moot.

Biltong wrote:Ireland is beneffiting from the woe that has besieged SA, Australia and England.

Much like NZ is currently. Not really anyone that can challenge them..

I think people are giving too much weight to the actual ranking points.

They mean squat when considering no team plays the same opposition in a specific cycle, many teams pick certain matches to not put their best squads out.

Weather, injuries etc all play a role in whether you beat a team by less or more than 15 points which makes a big difference in rankings.

Thus the rankings for me is moot.

100% agree.

New Zealand are in a different stratosphere at the moment, then there is 2nd to 8th not much between them, then there is the rest.

To think that any nation is anywhere near New Zealand's level is delusional at best.