The Rugby Championship

First topic message reminder :

It starts again tomorrow. As ever the interest will wane quickly if the ABs resume their usual dismantling of all opposition. They look extremely strong with Retallick and Whitelock back in harness. Their strength in depth at 10 is frightening. The Aussies do have Pocock back, but hard to look beyond another comfortable AB win.

Argentina away in SA will be interesting I think. SA look like they are improving and Argentina play some good rugby - one to watch I think.

Hoping that somebody pushes the ABs and an Aussie win tomorrow would be the perfect tonic for the tournament, however unlikely that is.

Brendan wrote: People like him in Ireland because of his down to earth attitude and hard work.  If you heard his car interview you would see why.

Apart from the accent, he sounds bloody Irish! He bloody mutters a little under his breath but there's always the bloody cheeky smile lurking under the surface.

Oh and he seems to say 'bloody' a lot, just like us.... or at least the part of the country I bloody well come from....mate.

Taylorman wrote:

Lowe was almost an AB but lacked in certain areas. When you get to that level youre a very accomplished player. You probably think hes better than most of our Super rugby wingers for the very fact hes playing Irish rugby. Well, he aint. Journeyman here, star there.

He did have to up his defensive game to meet Irish rugby standards - especially when Leinster ups the intensity at European level. Can't be having whizz kids that can't defend at that level. Now if he says he could handle those duties well enough before leaving New Zealand then he'd probably be lying because it was evidently a weak point.

SecretFly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Lowe was almost an AB but lacked in certain areas. When you get to that level youre a very accomplished player. You probably think hes better than most of our Super rugby wingers for the very fact hes playing Irish rugby. Well, he aint. Journeyman here, star there.

He did have to up his defensive game to meet Irish rugby standards - especially when Leinster ups the intensity at European level.  Can't be having whizz kids that can't defend at that level.  Now if he says he could handle those duties well enough before leaving New Zealand then he'd probably be lying because it was evidently a weak point.

Yes very good point fly...thats a sign of the different focus the NH and SH place on the game. Here it was more his inconsistency across the board but his attacking game when on was top notch, it just wasnt as sharp as guys like Naholo, Reiko and others. His defence wasnt great but not a key reason for not making the ABs, first and foremost we want our wingers to attack, its just others were better.

Our backs want to run with the ball more than anything else so thats what will be coming through now hes sorting his poorer areas out.

Collapse2005 wrote:Its kind of funny how Ebop and Taylorman keep banging on about NZs depth and yet Sam Cane who lets face it is good but not great has been replaced by a guy contracted to the Panasonic Knights. In other words Steve Hansen had to go to the NZRU board to select an overseas contracted player and break their own selection rules. That said I suspect Todd might be a better 7 than Cane, so interested to see how he goes in November.

All teams have areas in their depth where they aren't as stocked as others. Including NZ, hooker and 7 are NZs gaps IMO. NZs back up 10s are also a bit light on international experience too but no more so than any other country.

Just because we cant always churn out another McCaw or Jones doesnt mean our flankers are 'poor'

Ive yet to see a poor one play for NZ. I dont rate the Irish flankers bar aptly named SOB either but I'd put Ardie Savea or Todd against any of them, any day of the week. Any perceived differences while the side wins can only be negligible. By 'gap' you are drawing a very thin line. Our back row standards have consistently been higher than anyone, even South Africa and thats saying something. 'Gap' is very over rated.

10's light?

Barrett, DMac, Mo'unga..please. Every side will kill to have all 3. Again, wrong. Ireland has more quality depth than that? Nah. Not even close.

Thats only because you literally dont know who the Irish flankers are. I also never described Cane as poor I said he wasnt that good which I reckon you agree with.

Also I said back up 10s, your back up 10s are light on international experience not light although McKensie is probably the lightest 10 in world rugby in terms of weight. Mo'unga the real AB back up 10 only has a few international caps and suffers bad from nerves. He has said so himself in interviews. Wouldnt want him to get the yips would you.

You seem to have a lot of trouble reading what I actually said.

Maybe thats brcause the backup 10 Carter,Cruden,Slade.,Sopanga,Taylor are all playihg in
france now.Last year Slade was rated best 10 in Europe.Jordie Barrett is another 10 if required
Todd was first choice replacement for Cane when available he like Dagg went to japan with"Shags"
blessing he`s always rated hin.Vermulen went too but SA players can be picked anywhere.

alanmackie6 wrote:Maybe thats brcause the backup 10 Carter,Cruden,Slade.,Sopanga,Taylor are all playihg in
france now.Last year Slade was rated best 10 in Europe.Jordie Barrett is another 10 if required
Todd was first choice replacement for Cane when available he like Dagg went to japan with"Shags"
blessing he`s always rated hin.Vermulen went too but SA players can be picked anywhere.

Alan, Sopanga plays in England and last I checked he was terrible for Wasps v Leinster, men vs boys stuff. Carter is 36, he wouldn't be back up to anyone anymore. On what planet was Slade the best rated 10 in Europe? Maybe in cloud cuckoo land. If he was so good he wouldn't be playing for Pau at the bottom of the Top 14.

You can make a case for Cruden alright. Not sure who Taylor is?

Sure Jordie Barrett can play 10 but my point is the ABs are light on international experience in their back up 10s.

Who do you reckon the best 10's in Europe are collapse ?

LordDowlais wrote:Who do you reckon the best 10's in Europe are collapse ?

Sexton, Ford, Russell and Biggar. If Farrell played out half he could potentially be up there too. Who do you think they are?

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Who do you reckon the best 10's in Europe are collapse ?

Sexton, Ford, Russell and Biggar. If Farrell played out half he could potentially be up there too. Who do you think they are?

Well, Farrell would not be there, as good as his kicking is his defence is shocking. Biggar's form seems to have dipped, and I have not seen enough of Ford and Sexton, it's too hard to call.

They do not all have to be European though, I just asked the best in Europe.

Lol. Farrell not in amongst the best fly halfs in europe.comedy gold that. Especially on defence and on comparison to Cruden!

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Who do you reckon the best 10's in Europe are collapse ?

Sexton, Ford, Russell and Biggar. If Farrell played out half he could potentially be up there too. Who do you think they are?

Well, Farrell would not be there, as good as his kicking is his defence is shocking. Biggar's form seems to have dipped, and I have not seen enough of Ford and Sexton, it's too hard to call.

They do not all have to be European though, I just asked the best in Europe.

That's fine, who do you think is better? Of the Kiwis only maybe Cruden would challenge the guys I have mentioned but he is injured at the moment I think or not getting selected as he wasn't playing in Montpellier's latest champions cup game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Farrell not in amongst the best fly halfs in europe.comedy gold that. Especially on defence and on comparison to Cruden!

Farrell isn't playing 10 at the highest level, international level so I don't think he should make the list. I have got to say I agree that his defense isn't great too.

Anyone doubting his defence just doesn't pay attention to the system and the aim imo. Why would he need to play 10 at international level when Cruden doesn't? Farrell outperforms most in Europe every season.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone doubting his defence just doesn't pay attention to the system and the aim imo. Why would he need to play 10 at international level when Cruden doesn't?  Farrell outperforms most in Europe every season.

Cruden has played at the highest level at 10 but isn't eligible anymore so its hard to mark him down for that. Farrell however, is eligible to get selected at 10 but doesn't neither for England nor the Lions. There are reasons for that.

We disagree on the aim of the system, yes he misses tackles when he is employed as a shooter but disrupts the move but he also misses lots of tackles or gives up ground when he isn't the shooter in defense. I would also expect a shooter to nail their man more often that Farrell does in defense. I just don't think he is that effective a defender. I reckon we will have to agree to disagree on Farrells defense.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Farrell not in amongst the best fly halfs in europe.comedy gold that. Especially on defence and on comparison to Cruden!

What has Cruden got to do with it ? I have not mentioned him.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Anyone doubting his defence just doesn't pay attention to the system and the aim imo. Why would he need to play 10 at international level when Cruden doesn't?  Farrell outperforms most in Europe every season.

Cruden has played at the highest level at 10 but isn't eligible anymore so its hard to mark him down for that. Farrell however, is eligible to get selected at 10 but doesn't neither for England nor the Lions. There are reasons for that.

We disagree on the aim of the system, yes he misses tackles when he is employed as a shooter but disrupts the move but he also misses lots of tackles or gives up ground when he isn't the shooter in defense. I would also expect a shooter to nail their man more often that Farrell does in defense. I just don't think he is that effective a defender. I reckon we will have to agree to disagree on Farrells defense.

This.

Spot on.

He is always getting dragged along when he is tackling his opponents. But in his case, he never lets go.

Farrell and C-3PO have a lot in common

If you have followed the conversation lord its pretty obvious where Cruden came into it.
Collapse I'm sure you're well aware that rarely is a team made up of the best player in every position. Farrell is excellent at 10 and 12 and with the players england has it does make perfect sense that he play 12. Personally still think sexton is the best 10 in the world so again made sense that Gatland picks the best 12 next to him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you have followed the conversation lord it pretty obvious where Cruden came into it.
Collapse I'm sure you're well aware that rarely is a team made up of the best player in every position.  Farrell is excellent at 10 and 12 and with the players england has it does make perfect sense that he play 12. Personally still think sexton is the best 10 in the world so again made sense that Gatland picks the best 12 next to him.

Maybe but its hard to know how good he really is at 10 if he doesn't play there for England whereas we have seen Cruden play at a very high level at 10 for NZ though to be fair you could make a solid case for Farrell playing better at 10 in Europe than Cruden right now. That is true.

Collapse2005 wrote:...Maybe but its hard to know how good he really is at 10 if he doesn't play there for England..

If he had never played at 10 for England, then you might have a point about not knowing how he might go. As it is, more than half his Test match starts have been at fly half, so it's not an unfathomable mystery.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:...Maybe but its hard to know how good he really is at 10 if he doesn't play there for England..

If he had never played at 10 for England, then you might have a point about not knowing how he might go. As it is, more than half his Test match starts have been at fly half, so it's not an unfathomable mystery.

No more than half of them werent at 10 although it is close to half its actually less than half and the majority of those caps were early on in his career. He hasnt been a regular at 10 since 2015.

I did already concede to 7.5 that the logic wasnt perfect.

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Who do you reckon the best 10's in Europe are collapse ?

Sexton, Ford, Russell and Biggar. If Farrell played out half he could potentially be up there too. Who do you think they are?

Well, Farrell would not be there, as good as his kicking is his defence is shocking. Biggar's form seems to have dipped, and I have not seen enough of Ford and Sexton, it's too hard to call.

They do not all have to be European though, I just asked the best in Europe.

?  You know enough about Farrell to give an opinion and 'have not seen enough of' Sexton?  He plays with Leinster and at International, Lord.... in the Pro14, where Welsh Regions ply their trade.... Leinster, European rugby royalty, innit. Them.... him.... in blue.... .

He's the big eejit with the loop pass and the always angry expression?  Now do you know him?

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Who do you reckon the best 10's in Europe are collapse ?

Sexton, Ford, Russell and Biggar. If Farrell played out half he could potentially be up there too. Who do you think they are?

Well, Farrell would not be there, as good as his kicking is his defence is shocking. Biggar's form seems to have dipped, and I have not seen enough of Ford and Sexton, it's too hard to call.

They do not all have to be European though, I just asked the best in Europe.

?  You know enough about Farrell to give an opinion and 'have not seen enough of' Sexton?  He plays with Leinster and at International, Lord.... in the Pro14, where Welsh Regions ply their trade.... Leinster, European rugby royalty, innit.  Them.... him.... in blue.... .

He's the big eejit with the loop pass and the always angry expression?  Now do you know him?

He's the best in the business when he isn't injured.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Who do you reckon the best 10's in Europe are collapse ?

Sexton, Ford, Russell and Biggar. If Farrell played out half he could potentially be up there too. Who do you think they are?

Well, Farrell would not be there, as good as his kicking is his defence is shocking. Biggar's form seems to have dipped, and I have not seen enough of Ford and Sexton, it's too hard to call.

They do not all have to be European though, I just asked the best in Europe.

?  You know enough about Farrell to give an opinion and 'have not seen enough of' Sexton?  He plays with Leinster and at International, Lord.... in the Pro14, where Welsh Regions ply their trade.... Leinster, European rugby royalty, innit.  Them.... him.... in blue.... .

He's the big eejit with the loop pass and the always angry expression?  Now do you know him?

Some people don't let lack of knowledge prevent them from having an opinion on Owen Farrell or anything else associated with English rugby. Old Lordy falls into that bucket

He's never really injured. That's just a ploy for when he's cryogenically cottonised to sustain his precious bodily fluids.

Shush about that though - don't want Phil finding out too much detail on that one.

SecretFly wrote:This is getting annoying now.

Stop telling untruths!  Joe IS Irish!  He was a member of Boyzone!  It doesn't get any more Irish than that, so quit hating on his Nationality!

Even the transplanted heads look embarrassed.

Yep, that's why it's so good...you can feel the blushes

...except Joe. Joe looks into it. Little show-off

Collapse2005 wrote:Thats only because you literally dont know who the Irish flankers are. I also never described Cane as poor I said he wasnt that good which I reckon you agree with.

Also I said back up 10s, your back up 10s are light on international experience not light although McKensie is probably the lightest 10 in world rugby in terms of weight. Mo'unga the real AB back up 10 only has a few international caps and suffers bad from nerves. He has said so himself in interviews. Wouldnt want him to get the yips would you.

You seem to have a lot of trouble reading what I actually said.

You mean like the simple kick Sexton fluffed in 2013 that would have nailed the win fir Ireland, those yips you mean? Or the yips that every single Irish team has every world cup quarter. These are the yips you mean?

Iron out the yips and we can rule the world!

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Thats only because you literally dont know who the Irish flankers are. I also never described Cane as poor I said he wasnt that good which I reckon you agree with.

Also I said back up 10s, your back up 10s are light on international experience not light although McKensie is probably the lightest 10 in world rugby in terms of weight. Mo'unga the real AB back up 10 only has a few international caps and suffers bad from nerves. He has said so himself in interviews. Wouldnt want him to get the yips would you.

You seem to have a lot of trouble reading what I actually said.

You mean like the simple kick Sexton fluffed in 2013 that would have nailed the win fir Ireland, those yips you mean? Or the yips that every single Irish team has every world cup quarter. These are the yips you mean?

Or the yips Barrett got against SA this year or the yips Carter got in 2007 v France, yeah those yips. Happens top the best of them.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Thats only because you literally dont know who the Irish flankers are. I also never described Cane as poor I said he wasnt that good which I reckon you agree with.

Also I said back up 10s, your back up 10s are light on international experience not light although McKensie is probably the lightest 10 in world rugby in terms of weight. Mo'unga the real AB back up 10 only has a few international caps and suffers bad from nerves. He has said so himself in interviews. Wouldnt want him to get the yips would you.

You seem to have a lot of trouble reading what I actually said.

You mean like the simple kick Sexton fluffed in 2013 that would have nailed the win fir Ireland, those yips you mean? Or the yips that every single Irish team has every world cup quarter. These are the yips you mean?

Or the yips Barrett got against SA this year or the yips Carter got in 2007 v France, yeah those yips. Happens top the best of them.

Hand on your heart Guns, do you think Ireland are the best team in the world?

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Thats only because you literally dont know who the Irish flankers are. I also never described Cane as poor I said he wasnt that good which I reckon you agree with.

Also I said back up 10s, your back up 10s are light on international experience not light although McKensie is probably the lightest 10 in world rugby in terms of weight. Mo'unga the real AB back up 10 only has a few international caps and suffers bad from nerves. He has said so himself in interviews. Wouldnt want him to get the yips would you.

You seem to have a lot of trouble reading what I actually said.

You mean like the simple kick Sexton fluffed in 2013 that would have nailed the win fir Ireland, those yips you mean? Or the yips that every single Irish team has every world cup quarter. These are the yips you mean?

Or the yips Barrett got against SA this year or the yips Carter got in 2007 v France, yeah those yips. Happens top the best of them.

Hand on your heart Guns, do you think Ireland are the best team in the world?

Hand on your heart can you point out anywhere where I suggested they are or did the voices in your head tell you that?

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Thats only because you literally dont know who the Irish flankers are. I also never described Cane as poor I said he wasnt that good which I reckon you agree with.

Also I said back up 10s, your back up 10s are light on international experience not light although McKensie is probably the lightest 10 in world rugby in terms of weight. Mo'unga the real AB back up 10 only has a few international caps and suffers bad from nerves. He has said so himself in interviews. Wouldnt want him to get the yips would you.

You seem to have a lot of trouble reading what I actually said.

You mean like the simple kick Sexton fluffed in 2013 that would have nailed the win fir Ireland, those yips you mean? Or the yips that every single Irish team has every world cup quarter. These are the yips you mean?

Or the yips Barrett got against SA this year or the yips Carter got in 2007 v France, yeah those yips. Happens top the best of them.

Hand on your heart Guns, do you think Ireland are the best team in the world?

Hand on your heart can you point out anywhere where I suggested they are or did the voices in your head tell you that?

Calm down, take a deep breath, it’s just a simple question

Agreed, whats your answer?

Collapse2005 wrote:Agreed, whats your answer?

Ummm, no, the question was to you

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Agreed, whats your answer?

Ummm, no, the question was to you

I answered it with a question with an implied response, over to you.

Collapse2005 wrote:

ebop wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Agreed, whats your answer?

Ummm, no, the question was to you

I answered it with a question with an implied response, over to you.

Shame, you just don’t really believe do you

I'll answer it.  

Ireland are the best team in the world.    

All but a few probably a notch down from the super duper Individuals New Zealander can nurture...but even more so , as a team then, (overcoming declared Individual failings from rival fan bases) working together as a unit that carries out strategies and clinically holds to tactics .... Ireland is currently the best to this point.  (AI might change that)

ABs are the best group of Individuals, high individual skills creating the cutting points of attack.



I win the prize.  

You should have asked 'What's the best side?' Ebop.  Answer would have been different then.

Provided there are no other losses for either side between now and then the test in November will certainly answer the question as to who the best side in 2018 has been. I think whoever wins that will no doubt be the best at the moment. Id imagine the bookies will have it as about a 10 point win to NZ on form which is probably about right.

Edit: actually Paddy Power has the handicap at +5 at the moment, presumably based on the aggregate score between the two sides in recent games. Plus 10 seems more realistic to me which is still closer than most opponents.

That’s cool. You gotta own it and you’re right Guns and Fly. Ireland are a formidable side. If Ireland beat the ABs in November then I’m a convert and will doff my hat because this game will be ‘the game’. Until then it’s all posturing and a bit of a laugh.

Is England first up?

Thank God if it is. We'll get to see the warm up

NZ have a chance to win the Raeburn shield back from Ireland in November. Ireland are the current holders having taken it off Australia.

SecretFly wrote:Is England first up?

Thank God if it is.  We'll get to see the warm up

Good call, Ireland will get to see England highlight all the AB weaknesses. England were until quite recently considered a very good team. And despite recent results and injuries, probably are still pretty good or thereabouts.

I wouldnt be surprised if England turned the ABs over. They are due a big game and the ABs may not see it coming.

The ABs are taking this tour seriously so if any team beats them it will be a significant win with no excuses. I’m expecting a clean sweep but that isn’t so special.

Any clean sweep is special.

Guess it’s relative and in context but a clean sweep is the expectation. Every single year.

ebop wrote:The ABs are taking this tour seriously so if any team beats them it will be a significant win with no excuses. I’m expecting a clean sweep but that isn’t so special.

Well given the six nations is a stronger competition at the moment certainly in terms of the rankings of the sides and NZ failed to get a clean sweep in the rugby championship it wouldn't be a bad achievement. However, of course in November no teams ever plays all the six nations sides yet interestingly this year England do play all Sanzar sides. Ill be keeping a keen eye on them.