November tests general

First topic message reminder :


The list is below. Any predictions as to what might happen?
https://www.autumn-internationals.co.uk/2018/


WEEK 1
Saturday 3rd November 2018

-Japan v New Zealand
Ajinomoto Stadium, Tokyo
Kick off: 5:45am

-Wales v Scotland
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:45pm

-England v South Africa
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Ireland v Italy
Soldier Field, Chicago
Kick off: 8:00pm



WEEK 2
Saturday 10th November 2018

-Italy v Georgia
Stadio Artemio Franchi, Florence
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Fiji
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v New Zealand
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v Australia
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v Argentina
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v South Africa
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 3
Saturday 17th November 2018

-Italy v Australia
Stadio Euganeo, Padua
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Wales v Tonga
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Japan
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Scotland v South Africa
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v New Zealand
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 7:00pm

-France v Argentina
Stade Pierre-Mauroy, Lille
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 4
Saturday 24th November 2018

-Italy v New Zealand
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Argentina
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Australia
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v South Africa
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v USA
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v Fiji
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 5
Saturday 1st December 2018

-Barbarians v Argentina
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 2:30pm

SecretFly wrote:Anyway, since it's been brought up, what teams are showing...for everyone.

Yep, I'll admit, Ireland have a B team up for their first game.

What kind of team does Wales, England, Scotland etc have up?

Fly - it's in Chicago so it's an exhibition match as our learned Kiwi friends tell us. Conor O'Shea has obliged by putting out his B/C team same as New Zealand did the last time. They brought the A-Team to Dublin and duly err.. hammered Ireland.

Chicago should be more of a Potatoes and Pasta mash-up, I mean match-up, and we'll learn more about the RWC possibles by the end of it.

Oh, and Browney and the boys will pocket a €1m cheque for their efforts.

Okay, so maybe I erred on the side of caution when I claimed it was a B team

Apologies... I of course meant we are sending a Potato team but didn't want to let the Pastas in on our tactics.

Pot Hale wrote:All valid points, but the fact that the All Blacks requested to extend their stay in Japan and arranged Saturday’s money-spinning fixture makes this look like having your cake and eating it. Granted Hansen’s first-choice XV could pull Japan apart but if this match is to warrant Test status it was incumbent on the head coach to sprinkle at least a few star names among his selection. Alas, second-string sides playing Test matches is a trend we are only going to see more of.."

Money spinning is pretty important these days. You have to pay players enough so they don’t leave and pretend to be from another country for a couple of years. Guess the ABs playing Japan this weekend will always be kiwis now and that’s reassuring that some of them have made that call at such a young age.

ebop wrote:Guns, welcome back

Never left. Collapse2005

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

ebop wrote:Guns, welcome back

Never left. Collapse2005

Jared Diamond

Taylorman wrote:...That someone can write such an article rather than admire the very astute manner in which Hansen has managed this is beyond me...

It's not as if everyone in New Zealand is entirely happy with such a large squad being selected. I listened to Scotty Stevenson, and it didn't seem to sit well with him. On the same show, Mils Muliaina thought it was just the way the game is now, and recommended the fringe players don't hold back when it comes to grabbing All Blacks stash, because they probably won't get another chance.

I don't have a problem with managing players (although I recall Clive Woodward was slammed by many when he took 45 players on a Lions tour, so it would be a bit rich if any of the same people who did that are happy with 51 All Blacks). I do think the scheduling stinks. If the schedule is too tight to play the matches with a single squad, then don't play them. In the same position, I'm fairly sure the RFU would try and do the same as the NZRU, and I wouldn't like it then either

ebop wrote:

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

ebop wrote:Guns, welcome back

Never left. Collapse2005

Jared Diamond

Well spotted.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:...That someone can write such an article rather than admire the very astute manner in which Hansen has managed this is beyond me...

It's not as if everyone in New Zealand is entirely happy with such a large squad being selected. I listened to Scotty Stevenson, and it didn't seem to sit well with him. On the same show, Mils Muliaina thought it was just the way the game is now, and recommended the fringe players don't hold back when it comes to grabbing All Blacks stash, because they probably won't get another chance.

I don't have a problem with managing players (although I recall Clive Woodward was slammed by many when he took 45 players on a Lions tour, so it would be a bit rich if any of the same people who did that are happy with 51 All Blacks). I do think the scheduling stinks. If the schedule is too tight to play the matches with a single squad, then don't play them. In the same position, I'm fairly sure the RFU would try and do the same as the NZRU, and I wouldn't like it then either

Pipe dream for unions like us that need the money. Made worse by having to backfill even faster these days with players continuously leaving.

Other kiwis playing this weekend that I know of - Gareth Anscombe for Wales, Ben Te’o and Brad Shields for England, the Chiefs Michael Leitch plotting Japans first win over NZ due to the weakened selection. Bundi Aki for Ireland. Throw in Schmidt coaching Ireland, Hartley who is actually one that didnt start his pro career in Nz for a change, leaving at 15 after playing with guys like Liam Messam at school.

All novel pursuits for these guys but point is our players are everywhere. Our resident teams can hardly go anywhere where they dont meet other kiwi coaches or players on the other side.

Its put our young guys on alert as pros. They all know if they can get within a sniff of a Super rugby contract theyre also in line for a possible AB main or fringe type match (e.g Japan or NZ Maori if they qualify) or failing that an overseas contract.

It is because of that ‘readiness’ to step up possibly anywhere in the world that Hansen can push them onto the scene earlier. They have to mature as players younger and quicker these days because theyre all on a processing line that is pushing into production faster and faster to meet not only local but increasing global demands.

Some kiwis might not like the handing out of jerseys on that basis but the reality is its a necessity that can be managed the way Hansen is doing so. Hats off to him I say. Conservatives may not like it, best for the position etc but if we’d held that line last few years we’d have lost several more tests and would have many more burnt out players, and probably more departures...why do it tough here when overseas money beckons.

The other sneaky thing is Hansen gets to dissuade a whole bunch of players wanting international careers overseas...get em capped now early and maybe theyll stay. Just as Ireland have an Exile programme, hunting out pkayers globally tgat might qualify for Ireland, we should do similarly. Cap as many players who’s parentage allows a second international team, Shields the obvious one to have slipped through there, Hansen could have easily have given him half a test on an end of year tour.

All the Kiwis playing this weekend.... "throw in Schmidt"........



Yeah, throw him in...why not, he adds numbers to the argument.  Missed the longest serving Kiwi though, Gatland.  He's been playing for Wales for 11 years.  But Schmidt might last the full 80 still so I get where you're coming from, Taylor

SecretFly wrote:All the Kiwis playing this weekend.... "throw in Schmidt"........



Yeah, throw him in...why not, he adds numbers to the argument.  Missed the longest serving Kiwi though, Gatland.  He's been playing for Wales for 11 years.  But Schmidt might last the full 80 still so I get where you're coming from, Taylor

True ha ha, Gatlands been gone so long hes part of the furniture. Im sure Ive missed a few players as well, Japan may have a couple more. Thats the reality for us though. We’re everywhere. Dont know how we manage such a presence and through all that its even more prevelent in the English and French club scene. There they really are everywhere. Similar for SA.

Makes it interesting for us I guess though I never get used to seeing kiwis in funny looking jerseys.

I watched Gatland play for the ABs vs Leinster in Landsdowne road on the late 80s along with Frano Bottica. First time I saw the ABs play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArQG96L8nTE

ebop wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Quote from Guardian article: "....All valid points, but the fact that the All Blacks requested to extend their stay in Japan and arranged Saturday’s money-spinning fixture makes this look like having your cake and eating it. Granted Hansen’s first-choice XV could pull Japan apart but if this match is to warrant Test status it was incumbent on the head coach to sprinkle at least a few star names among his selection. Alas, second-string sides playing Test matches is a trend we are only going to see more of.."

Money spinning is pretty important these days. You have to pay players enough so they don’t leave and pretend to be from another country for a couple of years. Guess the ABs playing Japan this weekend will always be kiwis now and that’s reassuring that some of them have made that call at such a young age.

Spot on - that seems to be the obvious motivation or at least objective for the NZRU.    The absence of a New Zealand A team through which younger players could be capped has always struck me as odd.  I know there was/is one hanging around but hasn't played a match in yonks.     The more of these matches that NZ undertake - particularly against Tier 2 nations - the better, in my book.

The game is about team management,5 games including 3Rd bledisloe which frankly
is a pain.Aus match was a run up for next year .resting players ,fielding a second goal
kicker taking points on offer etc.
Japan is giving a lot young players a game.before they join the M aoris tour,not even
televised.
A team awaits England and Ireland then the Italy game for the rest of squad,totally
logical.
How would it help to field a side tha might beat japan by 80points then lose to England
,Ireland due to injuries incurred?
Also it means the young guns can`t be easily poached.

alanmackie6 wrote:The game is about team management,5 games including 3Rd bledisloe which frankly
is a pain.Aus match was a run up for next year .resting players ,fielding a second goal
kicker taking points on offer etc.
Japan is giving a lot young players a game.before they join the M aoris tour,not even
televised.
A team awaits England and Ireland then the Italy game for the rest of squad,totally
logical.
How would it help to field a side tha might beat japan by 80points then lose to England
,Ireland due to injuries incurred?
Also it means the young guns can`t be easily poached.

I guess that's why NZ has a lot of 1 and 2 cap wonders over the last 10 years. Cheapens the jersey a bit though no?

You talk about poaching? Lol.

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

alanmackie6 wrote:The game is about team management,5 games including 3Rd bledisloe which frankly
is a pain.Aus match was a run up for next year .resting players ,fielding a second goal
kicker taking points on offer etc.
Japan is giving a lot young players a game.before they join the M aoris tour,not even
televised.
A team awaits England and Ireland then the Italy game for the rest of squad,totally
logical.
How would it help to field a side tha might beat japan by 80points then lose to England
,Ireland due to injuries incurred?
Also it means the young guns can`t be easily poached.

I guess that's why NZ has a lot of 1 and 2 cap wonders over the last 10 years. Cheapens the jersey a bit though no?

Give it a rest, you are just trying to stir.

The AB jersey is the most respected jersey in world rugby, hence your comment is nonsense

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

alanmackie6 wrote:The game is about team management,5 games including 3Rd bledisloe which frankly
is a pain.Aus match was a run up for next year .resting players ,fielding a second goal
kicker taking points on offer etc.
Japan is giving a lot young players a game.before they join the M aoris tour,not even
televised.
A team awaits England and Ireland then the Italy game for the rest of squad,totally
logical.
How would it help to field a side tha might beat japan by 80points then lose to England
,Ireland due to injuries incurred?
Also it means the young guns can`t be easily poached.

I guess that's why NZ has a lot of 1 and 2 cap wonders over the last 10 years. Cheapens the jersey a bit though no?

Not at all.  Ireland does the exact same as it tries out players and then drops them into Wolfhounds or altogether if they don't make the mark - e.g. O'Halloran, Ah You, Adeolokun, Matt Healy, Adam Byrne, Rory O'Loughlin, Dave Heffernan, Kieran Treadwell, Billy Holland, Sean Reidy, Robin Copeland, Dominic Ryan, Noel Reid, etc, etc.

That's true not sure to the same extent though. This match is set to break a century long record for most new caps in a game if all 8 new caps start.

Collapse2005 wrote:That's true not sure to the same extent though. This match is set to break a century long record for most new caps in a game if all 8 new caps start.

That was then this is now, a hundred years ago the All Blacks used to play 4 or 5 tests a year, now they play 14 or 15 Further a hundred years ago the International calendar didnt have teams playing tests on consecutive weekends on different Continents.

Collapse2005 wrote:That's true not sure to the same extent though. This match is set to break a century long record for most new caps in a game if all 8 new caps start.

Since Jan 2000, there have been 50 Ireland players capped who have 5 caps or less - mainly 1s and 2s.

Schmidt had a record-equalling of 8 caps in Ireland's game vs Canada this time two years ago.  Kidney did the same in May 2009.  The first time was against England in 1908.  There were 7 against New Zealand in Nov 1997 and 7 against Japan in 2005.

PS - 69 New Zealand players have been capped with 5 caps or less since Jan 2000.

Pot Hale wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:That's true not sure to the same extent though. This match is set to break a century long record for most new caps in a game if all 8 new caps start.

Since 2000, there have been 50 Ireland players capped who have 5 caps or less - mainly 1s and 2s.

Schmidt had a record-equalling of 8 caps in Ireland's game vs Canada this time two years ago.  Kidney did the same in May 2009.

By my calculation there have only been 33 for Ireland to NZ's 54 since 2000. These figures include non cap matches too.

Didn't know about the Canada game.

Drop them in if they're ready. If that means 8 in the one team when trying to manage an AI season and still learn what you have as backup...let it be.

I've always disliked the old adage "If you play them too early you might ruin them."

I say "So?" If you wait until you feel they're mature enough to take the shock of high end International then you might find out you've invested too much time and money in a dud or two. Just because you wait doesn't mean you're always going to unearth a gem.

One of the big matches of the series will probably go under many people's radar. It's Italy Vs Georgia.


There's been a lot of talk about Georgia replacing Italy in the 6 nations. The Georgians have been bulling to play this game for a while now. Meanwhile the Italians are very aware of the importance of this game and that's why they're playing a second string against Ireland. Its definitely one of the matches to watch.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:That's true not sure to the same extent though. This match is set to break a century long record for most new caps in a game if all 8 new caps start.

Since 2000, there have been 50 Ireland players capped who have 5 caps or less - mainly 1s and 2s.

Schmidt had a record-equalling of 8 caps in Ireland's game vs Canada this time two years ago.  Kidney did the same in May 2009.

By my calculation there have only been 33 for Ireland to NZ's 54 since 2000. These figures include non cap matches too.

That's nice - I have 50 and 69 including 2000.

Thats nice well done

GunsGermsV2 wrote:

alanmackie6 wrote:The game is about team management,5 games including 3Rd bledisloe which frankly
is a pain.Aus match was a run up for next year .resting players ,fielding a second goal
kicker taking points on offer etc.
Japan is giving a lot young players a game.before they join the M aoris tour,not even
televised.
A team awaits England and Ireland then the Italy game for the rest of squad,totally
logical.
How would it help to field a side tha might beat japan by 80points then lose to England
,Ireland due to injuries incurred?
Also it means the young guns can`t be easily poached.

I guess that's why NZ has a lot of 1 and 2 cap wonders over the last 10 years. Cheapens the jersey a bit though no?

Depends how cheap the comment is. How many one hit wonders and non wonders have Ireland had the last ten years. Plenty more Id say, given most of our one hitters won their tests. Yours?

Mind you, gets a bit confusing discussing things with Jekyll and Hyde though.

Pot Hale wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:That's true not sure to the same extent though. This match is set to break a century long record for most new caps in a game if all 8 new caps start.

Since 2000, there have been 50 Ireland players capped who have 5 caps or less - mainly 1s and 2s.

Schmidt had a record-equalling of 8 caps in Ireland's game vs Canada this time two years ago.  Kidney did the same in May 2009.

By my calculation there have only been 33 for Ireland to NZ's 54 since 2000. These figures include non cap matches too.

That's nice - I have 50 and 69 including 2000.

Its called innovation, self belief.

Oh and in all those figures how many went elsewhere to play professional rugby from both sides, given we’re comparing that is, given one of the reasons you need to select new players is when others retire or leave.

NZ's second string had a mixed bag. As anticipated they scored a lot of points, TBH more than I expected, but managed to concede 5 tries. While it is not unusual for a scratch side to struggle in defence, cannot see Hansen being impressed by that aspect.

LondonTiger wrote:NZ's second string had a mixed bag. As anticipated they scored a lot of points, TBH more than I expected, but managed to concede 5 tries. While it is not unusual for a scratch side to struggle in defence, cannot see Hansen being impressed by that aspect.

He said all up a tick. 8 new players, one hadnt even played Super rugby. He said at times they got caught up in Japans game instead of playing their own. Does show when guys like Laumape play lesser opposition than theyre used to, he found ways to get around them fairly easily, Mission accomplished though, the main side get their prep.

Looking forward to the Bok England match.

Mounga has to be the back up 10 at this stage for NZ. I reckon Jordie Barrett will struggle to get back to the first 15.

Can`t really comment on the match not televised in uk to their shame.To concede
5 tries.but score10 with many players i`ve never heard off.Is some feat this was
all about creating depth and a extended recce for2019 hotels.playing condition's
training facilities etc.All SH sides are doing it probably NH sides too.
Those one hit wonders recruited for NH sides ,Reihana,Regan King,Waldron have been
good servants to the clubs who signed them on.

Capping players to stop them playing again at Test level is morally reprehensible. It is high time World Rugby clamped down on the practice.
One or two caps shouldn't tie a player to a nation, and is enough for both player and selector to see if they have a mutual future.

Morally reprehensible? Bit harsh no. A tad shady maybe but not that bad IMO.

The Great Aukster wrote:Capping players to stop them playing again at Test level is morally reprehensible. It is high time World Rugby clamped down on the practice.
One or two caps shouldn't tie a player to a nation, and is enough for both player and selector to see if they have a mutual future.

You think it’s morally reprehensible that a player plays for the country he is from? That’s a new one. You’d rather the player play for a country he is not from just to earn some extra coin?

The Great Aukster wrote:Capping players to stop them playing again at Test level is morally reprehensible. It is high time World Rugby clamped down on the practice.
One or two caps shouldn't tie a player to a nation, and is enough for both player and selector to see if they have a mutual future.

I can think of a number of other activities in the world of rugby that is morally reprehensible, but that aint one one of them.

Looking forward to the Eng v SA game. Anyone watch GMan's videos on YouTube?

alanmackie6 wrote:Can`t really comment on the match not televised in uk to their shame.

Yeah I can't imagine why the TV companies didn't think that a NZ B team game vs Japan was worthy of spending resources on, maybe there just aren't enough glory hunting fans in the UK? You should spread the word and get some more to join you

Biltong wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Capping players to stop them playing again at Test level is morally reprehensible. It is high time World Rugby clamped down on the practice.
One or two caps shouldn't tie a player to a nation, and is enough for both player and selector to see if they have a mutual future.

I can think of a number of other activities in the world of rugby that is morally reprehensible, but that aint one one of them.

Geez Ill say, yet plundering them when theyve never even been to your country is fine. So glad Hansen wasnt so morally reprehensible by giving Shields a shot. Otherwise how could he ever represent the country his parents left at 3?

One for the ages aukster.

The team v japan had an average age of 23,the a side is27 according to media.
Japan are no mugs these days,what would the full strength side have Scored?.
Jordie barrett is 21 his preferred position 12 .post rwc will start along side his brother
Coles had a good run,Read will be having surgery on his back after AI`s then post
RWC leave the test scene.

https://youtu.be/hyMC8AqnOCk

alanmackie6 wrote:The team v japan had an average age of 23,the a side is27 according to media.
Japan are no mugs these days,what would the full strength side have Scored?.
Jordie barrett is 21 his preferred position 12 .post rwc will start along side his brother
Coles had a good run,Read will be having surgery on his back after AI`s then post
RWC leave the test scene.

Barretts looking at Japan post Wcup. Jordie was clearly thrust into test rugby too quickly. His error rate in tests is too high for the ABs. Needs a good couple of years in Super rugby.

So it looks like NZ and Ireland got to trial/add experience to their respective squads and still win handsomely against their opposition.

And make a bit of moolah too.

Pot Hale wrote:So it looks like NZ and Ireland got to trial/add experience to their respective squads and still win handsomely against their opposition.

And make a bit of moolah too.  

 

Yes and have locks scoring forty meter tries for NZ Maori helps. 32-8 over USA start second half. Was that three matches in Chicago in one day? Black ferns as well.

Sydney morning Heralds team of the weekend:
1. Steven Kitshoff (South Africa)
2. Dane Coles (New Zealand)
3. Dillon Lewis (Wales)
4. Maro Itoje (England)
5. Jackson Hemopo (New Zealand)
6. Dan Lydiate (Wales)
7. Justin Tipuric (Wales)
8. Mark Wilson (England)
9. Ben Youngs (England)
10. Richie Mo'unga (New Zealand)
11. George Bridge (New Zealand)
12. Ngani Laumape (New Zealand)
13. Matt Proctor (NZ)
14. George North (Wales)
15. Jordan Larmour (Ireland)

Geez, must have been a struggle to pick that team if Lydiate and Tipuric made it from Wales! They honestly were nothing special yesterday at all. A stodgy stop-start win for Wales. Sure, the defensive effort was good but I saw nothing of note from those two.

The Oracle wrote:Geez, must have been a struggle to pick that team if Lydiate and Tipuric made it from Wales! They honestly were nothing special yesterday at all. A stodgy stop-start win for Wales. Sure, the defensive effort was good but I saw nothing of note from those two.

Yeah but no team played particularly well. Nice to see Larmour recognised for scoring a hattrick on his full test debut.

The Oracle wrote:Geez, must have been a struggle to pick that team if Lydiate and Tipuric made it from Wales! They honestly were nothing special yesterday at all. A stodgy stop-start win for Wales. Sure, the defensive effort was good but I saw nothing of note from those two.

As Itoje has been included, I have to assume they did not watch the games.

LondonTiger wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Geez, must have been a struggle to pick that team if Lydiate and Tipuric made it from Wales! They honestly were nothing special yesterday at all. A stodgy stop-start win for Wales. Sure, the defensive effort was good but I saw nothing of note from those two.

As Itoje has been included, I have to assume they did not watch the games.

Quite. I thought Mercer was probably the pick of England’s tyro forwards, but Itoje had one of his less effective games. Too many penalties and butchered an overlap in the second half.

I think Marx was Englands best forward

alanmackie6 wrote:Those one hit wonders recruited for NH sides ,Reihana,Regan King,Waldron have been
good servants to the clubs who signed them on.

Collapse2005 wrote:Morally reprehensible? Bit harsh no. A tad shady maybe but not that bad IMO.

My post was in response to Alan's comment above.

Larger countries attract economic migrants over the years with for example 10% of the UK population (excluding NI) eligible to apply for an Irish passport.
Some players could play for several countries and undoubtedly Unions cap players to secure them for their playing pool. Once capped the player is tied for life and may never be capped again because some other player will receive a single cap in the next lower tier game to tie them for life.

So Unions devalue the cachet of their own jersey by tying players that they don't really need, but do so before some other Union grabs them.
The standard of rugby is also devalued because smaller nations have no access to those otherwise eligible players tied by a single cap to another.
Capping players just to deposit them in a player vault is bad for the game IMO.