November tests general

First topic message reminder :


The list is below. Any predictions as to what might happen?
https://www.autumn-internationals.co.uk/2018/


WEEK 1
Saturday 3rd November 2018

-Japan v New Zealand
Ajinomoto Stadium, Tokyo
Kick off: 5:45am

-Wales v Scotland
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:45pm

-England v South Africa
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Ireland v Italy
Soldier Field, Chicago
Kick off: 8:00pm



WEEK 2
Saturday 10th November 2018

-Italy v Georgia
Stadio Artemio Franchi, Florence
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Fiji
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v New Zealand
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v Australia
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v Argentina
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v South Africa
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 3
Saturday 17th November 2018

-Italy v Australia
Stadio Euganeo, Padua
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Wales v Tonga
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Japan
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Scotland v South Africa
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v New Zealand
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 7:00pm

-France v Argentina
Stade Pierre-Mauroy, Lille
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 4
Saturday 24th November 2018

-Italy v New Zealand
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Kick off: 2:00pm

-Scotland v Argentina
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 2:30pm

-England v Australia
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 3:00pm

-Wales v South Africa
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off: 5:20pm

-Ireland v USA
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
Kick off: 6:30pm

-France v Fiji
Stade de France, Paris
Kick off: 7:45pm



WEEK 5
Saturday 1st December 2018

-Barbarians v Argentina
Twickenham Stadium, London
Kick off: 2:30pm

The Great Aukster wrote:So Unions devalue the cachet of their own jersey by tying players that they don't really need, but do so before some other Union grabs them.

You do understand the concept of ‘nationality’ don’t you? We’re not talking about clubs here. You make it sound like a player that has one cap for his country isn’t proud of that. Like he would happily trade in that one cap for his country for some other random nation that bought him out and gave him an extra 2-3 years of extra money. You have a weird outlook. I reckon you think you’re Irish but you’re probably English....for a price

In my view people take identities too seriously. I mean in terms of nationality for something you havent chosen or earned but were born into it seems a bit of an oddity that people take it so seriously. Im proud to be Irish but its not the be all and end all.

Lots of Irish manage to identify very strongly with Liverpool or Manchester etc on the one hand but fanitically proud to be Irish on the other. Identity can seemingly be as powerful as it is illogical at times.

Collapse2005 wrote:In my view people take identities too seriously. I mean in terms of nationality for something you havent chosen or earned but were born into it seems a bit of an oddity that people take it so seriously. Im proud to be Irish but its not the be all and end all.

Lots of Irish manage to identify very strongly with Liverpool or Manchester etc on the one hand but fanitically proud to be Irish on the other. Identity can seemingly be as powerful as it is illogical at times.

Yeah... and Ireland International (football) are shyte because of it. Players playing in League of Ireland are even beginning to brave it out and speak their mind (thankfully)....and quite a few of them are better players than the boys we take in from the Glory Premiership and underling Leagues of England.

So there is always a price for dropping your allegiances onto teams from another Nation. Perfectly free to do so but you then reap what you sow - or don't sow as the case might more accurately be described. In Ireland we have a vibrant Rugby Union game (local heros are International heros) and a big part of the reason is that we don't worship Toulon, Racing, Exeter or Saracens every week. We have our own stars, and our own are good enough.

Thats true in part but the onus is very much on the FAI to make football in Ireland strong and they have completely failed from the top to the bottom. You cant blame English football for that when you see sides like Iceland and Croatia playing well. Its human nature not to want to identify with a shambles although Id still prefer to go to a LOI game than a premiership game.

ebop wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:So Unions devalue the cachet of their own jersey by tying players that they don't really need, but do so before some other Union grabs them.

You do understand the concept of ‘nationality’ don’t you? We’re not talking about clubs here. You make it sound like a player that has one cap for his country isn’t proud of that. Like he would happily trade in that one cap for his country for some other random nation that bought him out and gave him an extra 2-3 years of extra money. You have a weird outlook. I reckon you think you’re Irish but you’re probably English....for a price

Don't think Nacewa is especially proud of his one Fiji cap.

The Great Aukster wrote:

alanmackie6 wrote:Those one hit wonders recruited for NH sides ,Reihana,Regan King,Waldron have been
good servants to the clubs who signed them on.

Collapse2005 wrote:Morally reprehensible? Bit harsh no. A tad shady maybe but not that bad IMO.

My post was in response to Alan's comment above.

Larger countries attract economic migrants over the years with for example 10% of the UK population (excluding NI) eligible to apply for an Irish passport.
Some players could play for several countries and undoubtedly Unions cap players to secure them for their playing pool. Once capped the player is tied for life and may never be capped again because some other player will receive a single cap in the next lower tier game to tie them for life.

So Unions devalue the cachet of their own jersey by tying players that they don't really need, but do so before some other Union grabs them.
The standard of rugby is also devalued because smaller nations have no access to those otherwise eligible players tied by a single cap to another.
Capping players just to deposit them in a player vault is bad for the game IMO.

And pinching players like Shields youre saying has no moral reprehensibility at all, but for Hensen to cap him, and no one is saying anyone is doing this to stop them playing for someone else, is?

Anyone who gets selected for the ABs has a chance to show he has what it takes to go on. It is that players responsibility to 1- accept the selection, with the full knowledge that they cannot play for any other country, and, 2- make the most of their chances.

If you can find something morally reprehensible in that then you must side with the view that picking players before theyve had a chance to play for their own country is the same, ie Lowe, Shields.

Otherwise, youre full of it.

Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

For the same reason anyone selecting a player that qualified and lived in NZ his whole life morally reprehensible. Auks point.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

The Oracle wrote:Geez, must have been a struggle to pick that team if Lydiate and Tipuric made it from Wales! They honestly were nothing special yesterday at all. A stodgy stop-start win for Wales. Sure, the defensive effort was good but I saw nothing of note from those two.

Lydiate did better than I thought he would, not sure if he should remain in the team yet though. Also thought Hamish Watson was better than Tipuric, but then again Watson actually plays like a flanker.

Dillon Lewis was good but not sure if he was the best of the weekend. He still struggles come scrum time.

Ah so you dnt think it's morally reprehensible then Taylor.
By countries biltong you muddy the water. Some unions do certainly.

Yeah unions

Then yes some do. They're pretty open about it. I backed the rfu s call that the amount of compensation should be reviewed but it didn't get much traction.

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Yes, Ireland have an ‘Exiles’ programme, designed specifically to probe the globe for players that might qualify for Ireland.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so you dnt think it's morally reprehensible then Taylor.
By countries biltong you muddy the water. Some unions do certainly.

Yeah I do. Theres just nothing I can do about it. But your style of discussion is boring, designed to poke and jab and never say anything that has any depth of knowledge about the game itself. So Ill leave you to it. Your rugby knowledge in general is grossly lacking, non informative and boring. You feed off others rather than having your own thoughts. Go fill your boots.

Lol. Coming from the guy who admits he's ignorant of half the world.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Coming from the guy who admits he's ignorant of half the world.

Exactly my point. Nothing.

Lol. You're getting a bit over excited Taylor. Big couple of games coming up for you lot over the next couple of week afterall.

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

Don’t forget the agents of these players (the players discussed on this thread and previous threads, not just the two SA players you just mentioned). The agents seem to be flying under the radar a bit in these discussions. It would be hugely naive for any of us not to think that at times it is the agent doing the marketing and pushing of the players and their attributes in the general direction of the welcoming unions. Don’t let these snakes get away without at least a bit of vitriol!

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

The nature of professionalism is that it's a competitive market.  You also have to bear in mind that if NH sides didn't give contracts to SA players then where would their careers go?  Particularly bearing in mind the quota system, admittedly I don't know to what extremes the quota system is being enforced.  Some of the guys we are taking on had no hope in the SA system.

Take a guy like Rob Herrring, wasn't even a Super Rugby player in SA, now he plays international rugby.  Do I feel bad about what we've done with Rob Herring?  Not remotely, we haven't robbed SA of a player that even now most South African fans have never heard of and we've given a decent guy an opportunity.  The counter to that might be someone like CJ Stander, although it is clear from what Stander has said in the past that there is some animosity between himself and SA based around the opportunities he was given in South Africa.

All in all it is what it is, I do feel for South Africa, but if you don't identify guys that are good enough or appreciate them enough and they gamble by going elsewhere, well that's life.

Also, it is not always the union doing the exploiting. In England and France it is more or less a club decision to make an offer, separate to the union. Same for Wales pretty much although I think there’s some sort of agreement that signings need to be ratified by the WRU as part of the deal on funding.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

The nature of professionalism is that it's a competitive market.  You also have to bear in mind that if NH sides didn't give contracts to SA players then where would their careers go?  Particularly bearing in mind the quota system, admittedly I don't know to what extremes the quota system is being enforced.  Some of the guys we are taking on had no hope in the SA system.

Take a guy like Rob Herrring, wasn't even a Super Rugby player in SA, now he plays international rugby.  Do I feel bad about what we've done with Rob Herring?  Not remotely, we haven't robbed SA of a player that even now most South African fans have never heard of and we've given a decent guy an opportunity.  The counter to that might be someone like CJ Stander, although it is clear from what Stander has said in the past that there is some animosity between himself and SA based around the opportunities he was given in South Africa.

All in all it is what it is, I do feel for South Africa, but if you don't identify guys that are good enough or appreciate them enough and they gamble by going elsewhere, well that's life.

All well and good, but then don't go harping on that NH rugby is closing the gap, or getting stronger without offering any evidence of what it is actually closing that gap or getting stronger, with. There's blame , ambiguity and naivety flying all around this issue. Its not good, so stop pretending that its 'normal fare'.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

The nature of professionalism is that it's a competitive market.  You also have to bear in mind that if NH sides didn't give contracts to SA players then where would their careers go?  Particularly bearing in mind the quota system, admittedly I don't know to what extremes the quota system is being enforced.  Some of the guys we are taking on had no hope in the SA system.

Take a guy like Rob Herrring, wasn't even a Super Rugby player in SA, now he plays international rugby.  Do I feel bad about what we've done with Rob Herring?  Not remotely, we haven't robbed SA of a player that even now most South African fans have never heard of and we've given a decent guy an opportunity.  The counter to that might be someone like CJ Stander, although it is clear from what Stander has said in the past that there is some animosity between himself and SA based around the opportunities he was given in South Africa.

All in all it is what it is, I do feel for South Africa, but if you don't identify guys that are good enough or appreciate them enough and they gamble by going elsewhere, well that's life.

Stander is a case in point, he had a discussion with Jake White, and based on that discussion he took the first plane out.

Look, I understand this is professional rugby, I understand players woll take opportunities to earn big bucks.

Yet when it is one way traffic all the time it starts to piss you off.

The Oracle wrote:Also, it is not always the union doing the exploiting. In England and France it is more or less a club decision to make an offer, separate to the union. Same for Wales pretty much although I think there’s some sort of agreement that signings need to be ratified by the WRU as part of the deal on funding.

Does it matter whether whether it is the unions or the clubs?

The net effect is the same.

To your original point yes it matter as clubs will not necessarily find it advantageous to pick up an English qualified player if they are looking to cover international breaks.

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

Its not just ireland though is it?

Try Europe's collective financial clout of a GDP more than ten times that of South Africa.

Paints a different picture then, doesn't it?

Biltong wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

The nature of professionalism is that it's a competitive market.  You also have to bear in mind that if NH sides didn't give contracts to SA players then where would their careers go?  Particularly bearing in mind the quota system, admittedly I don't know to what extremes the quota system is being enforced.  Some of the guys we are taking on had no hope in the SA system.

Take a guy like Rob Herrring, wasn't even a Super Rugby player in SA, now he plays international rugby.  Do I feel bad about what we've done with Rob Herring?  Not remotely, we haven't robbed SA of a player that even now most South African fans have never heard of and we've given a decent guy an opportunity.  The counter to that might be someone like CJ Stander, although it is clear from what Stander has said in the past that there is some animosity between himself and SA based around the opportunities he was given in South Africa.

All in all it is what it is, I do feel for South Africa, but if you don't identify guys that are good enough or appreciate them enough and they gamble by going elsewhere, well that's life.

Stander is a case in point, he had a discussion with Jake White, and based on that discussion he took the first plane out.

Look, I understand this is professional rugby, I understand players woll take opportunities to earn big bucks.

Yet when it is one way traffic all the time it starts to piss you off.

At the end of the day the South Africa has decided to handicap itself further with these quotas. The more it's enforced, the more players will leave and better ones too.

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

Its not just ireland though is it?

Try Europe's collective financial clout of a GDP more than ten times that of South Africa.

Paints a different picture then, doesn't it?

Dangerous telling some of us we're a United States of Europe, Bilt.  We ain't.  I'm Irish.  We still have our own economy and do our own tax... and were shafted a while back by our European pals to take onboard crippling debt to save some sleazy European Banks.  That's not the rest of them that had to accept the debt, just us and one or two other Nations that were shafted by Mafiosi banks.  

I'm Irish.  The EU isn't my country.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

Its not just ireland though is it?

Try Europe's collective financial clout of a GDP more than ten times that of South Africa.

Paints a different picture then, doesn't it?

Dangerous telling some of us we're a United States of Europe, Bilt.  We ain't.  I'm Irish.  We still have our own economy and do our own tax... and were shafted a while back by our European pals to take onboard crippling debt to save some sleazy European Banks.  That's not the rest of them that had to accept the debt, just us and one or two other Nations that were shafted by Mafiosi banks.  

I'm Irish.  The EU isn't my country.

I am South African, and we are losing players to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy.

So whether you see yourself as Irish doesn't change the fact that the collective economy of Europe is ripping the arse out of our rugby stock.

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

Its not just ireland though is it?

Try Europe's collective financial clout of a GDP more than ten times that of South Africa.

Paints a different picture then, doesn't it?

Dangerous telling some of us we're a United States of Europe, Bilt.  We ain't.  I'm Irish.  We still have our own economy and do our own tax... and were shafted a while back by our European pals to take onboard crippling debt to save some sleazy European Banks.  That's not the rest of them that had to accept the debt, just us and one or two other Nations that were shafted by Mafiosi banks.  

I'm Irish.  The EU isn't my country.

I am South African, and we are losing players to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy.

So whether you see yourself as Irish doesn't change the fact that the collective economy of Europe is ripping the arse out of our rugby stock.

Not the collective economy of Europe, obviously. For a start the uk is 1 economy. So it’s 4 countries (UK, Ireland, France and Italy) out of 27 in Europe? And the it’s nothing to do with the countries’ economies. It’s the finances of the clubs, which are not linked to the countries’ economies.

The Oracle wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

Its not just ireland though is it?

Try Europe's collective financial clout of a GDP more than ten times that of South Africa.

Paints a different picture then, doesn't it?

Dangerous telling some of us we're a United States of Europe, Bilt.  We ain't.  I'm Irish.  We still have our own economy and do our own tax... and were shafted a while back by our European pals to take onboard crippling debt to save some sleazy European Banks.  That's not the rest of them that had to accept the debt, just us and one or two other Nations that were shafted by Mafiosi banks.  

I'm Irish.  The EU isn't my country.

I am South African, and we are losing players to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy.

So whether you see yourself as Irish doesn't change the fact that the collective economy of Europe is ripping the arse out of our rugby stock.

Not the collective economy of Europe, obviously. For a start the uk is 1 economy. So it’s 4 countries (UK, Ireland, France and Italy) out of 27 in Europe? And the it’s nothing to do with the countries’ economies. It’s the finances of the clubs, which are not linked to the countries’ economies.  

You are nitpicking, I listed six countries.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

NZ has 4 million. 2 of our players just got nominated best try of the year for NH countries. Several players and coaches have won the 6N and GS.

Which part of this argument applies to us then, or is that a whole different set of excuses? Oh hang on, Tongan schoolboys, yes, thats where it evens it all up, I forgot.

Anyway, I dont want to start that merry go round again. Gets nowhere anyway.

Biltong wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

Its not just ireland though is it?

Try Europe's collective financial clout of a GDP more than ten times that of South Africa.

Paints a different picture then, doesn't it?

Dangerous telling some of us we're a United States of Europe, Bilt.  We ain't.  I'm Irish.  We still have our own economy and do our own tax... and were shafted a while back by our European pals to take onboard crippling debt to save some sleazy European Banks.  That's not the rest of them that had to accept the debt, just us and one or two other Nations that were shafted by Mafiosi banks.  

I'm Irish.  The EU isn't my country.

I am South African, and we are losing players to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy.

So whether you see yourself as Irish doesn't change the fact that the collective economy of Europe is ripping the arse out of our rugby stock.

Not the collective economy of Europe, obviously. For a start the uk is 1 economy. So it’s 4 countries (UK, Ireland, France and Italy) out of 27 in Europe? And the it’s nothing to do with the countries’ economies. It’s the finances of the clubs, which are not linked to the countries’ economies.  

You are nitpicking, I listed six countries.

You said the ‘collective economy of Europe’. That is 27 countries including the likes of Spain, Germany, Poland, etc. Clearly it is not the collective economy of Europe. Just was when we talk about South Africa we’re not talking about the collective economy of the whole of Africa.

Plus, as I said it is nothing to do with the economy of the countries really. You think Westminster gives the clubs in Wales or England money?!

Biltong wrote:

I am South African, and we are losing players to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy.

So whether you see yourself as Irish doesn't change the fact that the collective economy of Europe is ripping the arse out of our rugby stock.

Well I try to be sympathetic a lot of the time; - but again I'm telling you - you think we don't have our own problems clinging to our own players when we can't match the pay rates in the English Premiership and the French Top 14.

We have our own problems. We're not all able to pay the same wages as each other. French rugby ain't Irish rugby. It's not that I 'see myself as Irish' - it's what I am. Our economies are different. It's always a struggle to keep inventing inducements and creating little rules to keep Irish players in Ireland playing for Irish teams.

So you're South African and you have your presumed problems holding onto players. I'm Irish and we're busy trying to keep systems going to keep our players. I am not Scottish, Welsh, English, Italian or French. I'm Irish...and SA far outweighs Ireland in wealth and population density

.... find solutions to at least drop us (the Irish) out of the equation. Beat our best offers at least. That's a start.... then move on to wherever the hell else you want to move onto - Scotland, England, France.

Offer the players more than we (in Ireland) can offer them first. Try that, and see how it goes. The money is there - it's just not being spent.

The Oracle wrote:

Biltong wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would selecting someone who has qualified to play for england his entire life be morally reprehensible?

Qualified via parentage I assume.

Do European countries roam the register of rugby players in the SH to find traces of parentage to link them to the NH?

Thus realing the investment other nations made in players?

Can't blame south african players for looking elsewhere when these quotas are supposedly being enforced by the government. Those two young lads that joined the Munster academy  last year couldn't get out of south africa quick enough!

Yup, and Munster gleefully accepted them, you can't help but feel SA rugby is being exploited by other unions though, can you?

SA is being exploited by lots of things.... but ...............

it has a population of nearly 58 million.  Ireland has about 6 million
SA is about 14 times the size of Ireland = rich in raw resources, wealthier... diamonds on tap, I'm sure plenty of billionaires on tap too....

Sometimes, you can't always be blaming everyone else for any hassles that's happening in a given sport in SA.  Surely a larger funding structure can be effected through sponsorships, Broadcasting rights, private investment etc.  
Surely there's more than enough potential in SA to get its house in order and make any outside offers coming from a little Nation like Ireland absolutely laughable and obsolete.  SA should have a League of it's own that should have the financial punch of the English Premiership or the French Top 14.  Four Irish Provinces can't really be blamed for the complexities in SA that seems to drag SA players away from their own shores in numbers.

Its not just ireland though is it?

Try Europe's collective financial clout of a GDP more than ten times that of South Africa.

Paints a different picture then, doesn't it?

Dangerous telling some of us we're a United States of Europe, Bilt.  We ain't.  I'm Irish.  We still have our own economy and do our own tax... and were shafted a while back by our European pals to take onboard crippling debt to save some sleazy European Banks.  That's not the rest of them that had to accept the debt, just us and one or two other Nations that were shafted by Mafiosi banks.  

I'm Irish.  The EU isn't my country.

I am South African, and we are losing players to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy.

So whether you see yourself as Irish doesn't change the fact that the collective economy of Europe is ripping the arse out of our rugby stock.

Not the collective economy of Europe, obviously. For a start the uk is 1 economy. So it’s 4 countries (UK, Ireland, France and Italy) out of 27 in Europe? And the it’s nothing to do with the countries’ economies. It’s the finances of the clubs, which are not linked to the countries’ economies.  

You are nitpicking, I listed six countries.

You said the ‘collective economy of Europe’. That is 27 countries including the likes of Spain, Germany, Poland, etc. Clearly it is not the collective economy of Europe. Just was when we talk about South Africa we’re not talking about the collective economy of the whole of Africa.

Plus, as I said it is nothing to do with the economy of the countries really. You think Westminster gives the clubs in Wales or England money?!

Focus oracle, it isn't that hard, move on to the six nations' unions I mentioned.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

I am South African, and we are losing players to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy.

So whether you see yourself as Irish doesn't change the fact that the collective economy of Europe is ripping the arse out of our rugby stock.

Well I try to be sympathetic a lot of the time; - but again I'm telling you - you think we don't have our own problems clinging to our own players when we can't match the pay rates in the English Premiership and the French Top 14.

We have our own problems. We're not all able to pay the same wages as each other.  French rugby ain't Irish rugby.  It's not that I 'see myself as Irish' - it's what I am.  Our economies are different.  It's always a struggle to keep inventing inducements and creating little rules to keep Irish players in Ireland playing for Irish teams.

So you're South African and you have your presumed problems holding onto players.  I'm Irish and we're busy trying to keep systems going to keep our players.  I am not Scottish, Welsh, English, Italian or French.  I'm Irish...and SA far outweighs Ireland in wealth and population density

.... find solutions to at least drop us (the Irish) out of the equation.  Beat our best offers at least.  That's a start.... then move on to wherever the hell else you want to move onto - Scotland, England, France.

Offer the players more than we (in Ireland) can offer them first.  Try that, and see how it goes.  The money is there - it's just not being spent.

The GDP of SA per capita is way below that of Ireland, so disposable wealth is relative.

So biltong you brought this up linked to shields and whether it's morally reprehensible: do you think england picking him is thus?

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

I am South African, and we are losing players to Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, France, Italy.

So whether you see yourself as Irish doesn't change the fact that the collective economy of Europe is ripping the arse out of our rugby stock.

Well I try to be sympathetic a lot of the time; - but again I'm telling you - you think we don't have our own problems clinging to our own players when we can't match the pay rates in the English Premiership and the French Top 14.

We have our own problems. We're not all able to pay the same wages as each other.  French rugby ain't Irish rugby.  It's not that I 'see myself as Irish' - it's what I am.  Our economies are different.  It's always a struggle to keep inventing inducements and creating little rules to keep Irish players in Ireland playing for Irish teams.

So you're South African and you have your presumed problems holding onto players.  I'm Irish and we're busy trying to keep systems going to keep our players.  I am not Scottish, Welsh, English, Italian or French.  I'm Irish...and SA far outweighs Ireland in wealth and population density

.... find solutions to at least drop us (the Irish) out of the equation.  Beat our best offers at least.  That's a start.... then move on to wherever the hell else you want to move onto - Scotland, England, France.

Offer the players more than we (in Ireland) can offer them first.  Try that, and see how it goes.  The money is there - it's just not being spent.

Beating offers is a waste of time. Our players get sucked into the NRL, the NH, Japan when theyre not even Mitre 10 or Super rugby players, let alone All Blacks, and they get picked up for more than an AB's salary.

We should start paying them higher than AB salaries? We cant aford to take that kind of risk, and we need to focus on the top level. Not saying Ireland can either but the net difference between Ireland and SA/ NZ far outweighs on the Irish side (and the english. Welsh, Scottish, Japan, Oz NRL side- all of them, far greater net across them all). Last Irish AB we had was Gallagher, 30 years ago.

Taylorman wrote:

NZ has 4 million. 2 of our players just got nominated best try of the year for NH countries. Several players and coaches have won the 6N and GS.

Which part of this argument applies to us then, or is that a whole different set of excuses? Oh hang on, Tongan schoolboys, yes, thats where it evens it all up, I forgot.

Oh I'm game enough for you too Taylor...so just be more direct in the direct point your putting to me and I'll answer it.  

In advance, I'll repeat that I'm not French or English and we have our own battles trying to keep Irish players in Ireland.  You don't give a schidt about those battles to be sure to be sure - I do.  Got our own problems. So I can only take so much persecution complex coming from the greatest Rugby playing Nation on the planet.

Now,  if you want to build a Trump wall around New Zealand and forcefully repatriate Gatland and Schmidt and put them on trial for treason... well, that's a New Zealand governmental issue, and I'll leave all that jazz to the Kiwi electorate.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So biltong you brought this up linked to shields and whether it's morally reprehensible: do you think england picking him is thus?

Sorry, but my comments have nothing to do with Shields.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So biltong you brought this up linked to shields and whether it's morally reprehensible: do you think england picking him is thus?

The initial morally reprehensible comment was brought up by a NH supporter in regards with Hansen capping 'one match wonders' in order to prevent them from playing for other countries.

And you responded to the point about Taylor finding shields morally reprehensible by asking whether countries then unions researched lineage. Fair assumption given your further thoughts to ask you about whether you too find it so.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And you responded to the point about Taylor finding shields morally reprehensible by asking whether countries then unions researched lineage. Fair assumption given your further thoughts to ask you about whether you too find it so.

Again, no, my response was I can think of a number of things in world rugby that are morally reprehensible, but what Hansen was doing isn't one of them.

You need to do your honework, seperate comments on diffrent issues. I am tired of repeating myself.

I have not made one comment in regards to Shields anywhere.

Biltong wrote:




Focus oracle, it isn't that hard, move on to the six nations' unions I mentioned.

I’m focusing pretty hard. I think that’s the issue as I’m focusing on what you actually said! Maybe you mis-typed! You mentioned twice ‘the collective economy of Europe’ and how it is ‘ripping the arse out of our rugby stock’. Now it’s the 6 undividual nations rather than all of Europe. Ok. Well that’s a different, far inferior picture to the whole of Europe. And ‘Europe’ isn’t a pot of money, anyway.

Moving on... On my own nation, if you can’t match the financial ‘might’ of Wales then you’re in trouble! We even lose the likes of Rhys Priestland and Jamie Roberts! Who the hell wants them?! We simply can’t match the financial clout of England or France either, and probably Ireland but they don’t tend to go for our players, so it’s not all one way trafffic. But I do get the anger and frustration.[/quote]

Sorry, kept buggering up the quote function on my iPad!

SecretFly wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

NZ has 4 million. 2 of our players just got nominated best try of the year for NH countries. Several players and coaches have won the 6N and GS.

Which part of this argument applies to us then, or is that a whole different set of excuses? Oh hang on, Tongan schoolboys, yes, thats where it evens it all up, I forgot.

Oh I'm game enough for you too Taylor...so just be more direct in the direct point your putting to me and I'll answer it.  

In advance, I'll repeat that I'm not French or English and we have our own battles trying to keep Irish players in Ireland.  You don't give a schidt about those battles to be sure to be sure - I do.  Got our own problems.  So I can only take so much persecution complex coming from the greatest Rugby playing Nation on the planet.

Now,  if you want to build a Trump wall around New Zealand and forcefully repatriate Gatland and Schmidt and put them on trial for treason... well, that's a New Zealand governmental issue, and I'll leave all that jazz to the Kiwi electorate.

Reason I dont care is that you are both doing it to us- France even more so. So youre grabbing our players to fill your own gaps. Why on earth would we then care for your plight if you are both plundering us and we arent doing it to neither? Geez. Im not English or French or Irish either, Im kiwi, and we are getting shafted by you ALL, and not getting a bean back.