6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

by **LondonTiger** Thu 31 Jan 2019, 1:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

Part 1 - https://www.606v2.com/t68214-6-nations-ireland-v-england-2nd-feb-2019

Details:

Date: Saturday 2nd February 2019
Time: 16:45 GMT
Location: Dublin, Aviva Stadium
Media Coverage: ITV, TV3, BBC (highlights only), Radio 5Live

Officials

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Teams

Ireland

15 Robbie Henshaw, 14 Keith Earls, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 Jacob Stockdale, 10 Johnny Sexton, 9 Conor Murray; 1 Cian Healy, 2 Rory Best, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 4 Devin Toner, 5 James Ryan, 6 Peter O'Mahony, 7 Josh van der Flier, 8 CJ Stander.

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Dave Kilcoyne, 18 Andrew Porter, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 Sean O'Brien, 21 John Cooney, 22 Joey Carbery, 23 Jordan Larmour

England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).

by Guest Sun 03 Feb 2019, 4:45 pm

BamBam wrote:I'm truly stunned to hear that Jacob Rees Miaow thinks that the marginal forward pass by a Welsh player was backwards but the ones by the Irish and English players are forward

Are you stunned because you haven't actually watched them and you're just perpetually bewildered?

Flat: https://youtu.be/Cga-4NP0ioA?t=100

Forward: https://youtu.be/4ic3c_deuIw?t=257

Not that hard...

by No 7&1/2 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 4:47 pm

Why do you consider the slade pass more pivotal than the Healy try anyway miaow? Time in the game? The pass is done to death.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 03 Feb 2019, 4:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'll cop a ban Bam. Really not worth it.

Please listen guys. If I have to delete or edit any more posts there will be bans.

by mikey_dragon Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The England back row has a lot of potential but bar vunipola everyone else is new to international rugby. Will be good to view it up against the huge French pack next week along with the front 5.
I think the best back row for Wales is Shingler tipuric and faletau and they're streets ahead of what you have available.

Yeah agree that they have potential if yesterday is anything to go by, but I certainly think that Wales have better open-sides than most other teams right now - and there are a couple good ones who can’t even make the team. I think if we put two 7s into our back-row it gives us an advantage. If Shingler was available he would walk back into my back-row in place of Moriarty, whilst Faletau would be the bench having been away for so long.

Aside from Curry and Underhill who are both very good players, I think you still need a good back-up, someone like Ollie Robinson looks as if he could step up. Rumours of him going to Exeter Whistle

by No 7&1/2 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:03 pm

Woah dont single me our LT. All I've done is a give a heads up!

by No 7&1/2 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:04 pm

Robinson is decent but not better than other options like earl willis the other curry kvesic. All come a down to the want of the coaches though.

by Collapse2005 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:19 pm

Good opening weekend to the championship. Defo the best tournament in world rugby. Great challenge for Ireland yesterday.

by lostinwales Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:20 pm

It really depends on what you want from a back row, and whoever gets to determine the tempo of the match. The Welsh one on display vs France is faster over the ground than England, but seriously out muscled.

While we are on the subject, what is it with Navidi and giving the ball carrier a shove from the back just before the opposition tackles him?

by king_carlos Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:22 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/02/ireland-england-six-nations-player-ratings

Ratings that stand out for me there are 5/10 for Henshaw and 6/10 for Youngs. I'd have both 2 points higher.

I thought Youngs put in his best performance for a long while. His box kicking was incomparable to when he plays with Tigers, as is often the case. Having the Vunipola's running off him brings the best out of his game, unsurprisingly!

Similarly I thought Henshaw dealt with England's kicking well under a lot of pressure. There were two very well weighted kicks through that he somehow manage to collect, not carry over the line and then keep alive for support to arrive. A tough day to slot into full back and I thought he performed far better than a 5/10 rating.

I'd probably bump Tom Curry up a point to 7/10 as well. The yellow was silly but he did what England needed by leading the line-speed in fringe defence and targeting the break down very cleverly.

by Collapse2005 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:26 pm

Henshaw did ok. His positioning wasnt as great as Kearney's but he did have to cover Earls for some of the game.

by Exiledinborders Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:36 pm

king_carlos wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/02/ireland-england-six-nations-player-ratings

Ratings that stand out for me there are 5/10 for Henshaw and 6/10 for Youngs. I'd have both 2 points higher.

I thought Youngs put in his best performance for a long while. His box kicking was incomparable to when he plays with Tigers, as is often the case. Having the Vunipola's running off him brings the best out of his game, unsurprisingly!

Similarly I thought Henshaw dealt with England's kicking well under a lot of pressure. There were two very well weighted kicks through that he somehow manage to collect, not carry over the line and then keep alive for support to arrive. A tough day to slot into full back and I thought he performed far better than a 5/10 rating.

I'd probably bump Tom Curry up a point to 7/10 as well. The yellow was silly but he did what England needed by leading the line-speed in fringe defence and targeting the break down very cleverly.

That Youngs rating is nonsensical. I have often been critical of Youngs but he was excellent yesterday.

by Geen sport voor watjes Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:40 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Henshaw did ok. His positioning wasnt as great as Kearney's but he did have to cover Earls for some of the game.

Blue magoo alert.

by Collapse2005 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 5:52 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Henshaw did ok. His positioning wasnt as great as Kearney's but he did have to cover Earls for some of the game.
Blue magoo alert.

Red moron alert. Listen to Schmidts post match interview. He confirmed Henshaw had to cover Earls as he suffered a hip pointer early on and tried but couldnt run it off.

by lostinwales Sun 03 Feb 2019, 6:11 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Henshaw did ok. His positioning wasnt as great as Kearney's but he did have to cover Earls for some of the game.
Blue magoo alert.

Red moron alert. Listen to Schmidts post match interview. He confirmed Henshaw had to cover Earls as he suffered a hip pointer early on and tried but couldnt run it off.

I had forgotten the save where he kept the ball the right side of the line to prevent the 5m scrum. He did do some decent things under a lot of pressure, but still think he'd be better in the centers

by carpet baboon Sun 03 Feb 2019, 6:23 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
king_carlos wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/feb/02/ireland-england-six-nations-player-ratings

Ratings that stand out for me there are 5/10 for Henshaw and 6/10 for Youngs. I'd have both 2 points higher.

I thought Youngs put in his best performance for a long while. His box kicking was incomparable to when he plays with Tigers, as is often the case. Having the Vunipola's running off him brings the best out of his game, unsurprisingly!

Similarly I thought Henshaw dealt with England's kicking well under a lot of pressure. There were two very well weighted kicks through that he somehow manage to collect, not carry over the line and then keep alive for support to arrive. A tough day to slot into full back and I thought he performed far better than a 5/10 rating.

I'd probably bump Tom Curry up a point to 7/10 as well. The yellow was silly but he did what England needed by leading the line-speed in fringe defence and targeting the break down very cleverly.
That Youngs rating is nonsensical. I have often been critical of Youngs but he was excellent yesterday.

Well clearly the guardian fella didn't watch the game, I said it this morning Young's was unbelievably good yesterday. Right decisions at the right time done with brilliant accuracy.
Watch him on the intercept try, it's him timing his run around the ruck so he doesn't break stride and flying up on sexton that forces the pass. An outstanding bit of defensive work

by El Radar Sun 03 Feb 2019, 6:52 pm

I'm not entirely sure why the Slade pass is even being debated, the hands go backwards and the ball backwards relative to him, the travel of the ball in that instance is irrelevant. Marginal offside call either way countered by the Healy try and the Vunipola non try.

For what it's worth Itoje should have been yellow carded whilst Curry definitely should not have.

by The Great Aukster Sun 03 Feb 2019, 7:18 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Speaking of commentators just got to the slade try where D'arcy says it's a good job.for England that they didn't check the pass as despite the hands going backwards the ball travels forwards. It's that level of not knowing the laws and how to interpret them that leads to regurgitation by newbies to the game.

A quick reprise of the physics they learnt at school should do the job, if an object is moving forward and a sideways force is applied, it will initially continue to move forwards at the same rate until the forward momentum is dissipated, hence when passed backwards or sideways, the ball will continue to travel forwards at the same rate as the player is moving forwards until that momentum is dissipated.

As can be seen from the footage, the ball goes forward at the same rate as Slade, until the dissipation takes effect and Slade overtakes the ball and starts to slow down himself to get back behind the receiver.

Lesson over.

It's great to have someone who can explain this. Can you enlighten me further though?
Say Slade was running at 8 metres per second and dropped the ball, would it travel 4m forward the same as the pass did?

by lostinwales Sun 03 Feb 2019, 7:36 pm

Depends on flight time. Ignoring drag vs momentum for a second it would take 0.5 s to travel 4m forward. Say it is about 1m above the ground then that law of physics states
distance travelled S = 0.5 * g * time^2 (assuming no intial speed)

Say the ball is 1m above the ground when it is dropped and gravity (what the hell) is 10m/s^2 then time = square root of 0.2, or 0.45s, so it would travel about 3.6m forward.

by king_carlos Sun 03 Feb 2019, 7:49 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Speaking of commentators just got to the slade try where D'arcy says it's a good job.for England that they didn't check the pass as despite the hands going backwards the ball travels forwards. It's that level of not knowing the laws and how to interpret them that leads to regurgitation by newbies to the game.

A quick reprise of the physics they learnt at school should do the job, if an object is moving forward and a sideways force is applied, it will initially continue to move forwards at the same rate until the forward momentum is dissipated, hence when passed backwards or sideways, the ball will continue to travel forwards at the same rate as the player is moving forwards until that momentum is dissipated.

As can be seen from the footage, the ball goes forward at the same rate as Slade, until the dissipation takes effect and Slade overtakes the ball and starts to slow down himself to get back behind the receiver.

Lesson over.
It's great to have someone who can explain this. Can you enlighten me further though?
Say Slade was running at 8 metres per second and dropped the ball, would it travel 4m forward the same as the pass did?

For the ball to travel 4m forward in a hypothetical scenario of Slade running at 8 m/s the ball would need to take half a second to hit the floor. It would also need to be dropped with no other external force applied in order to travel those 4 metres due to inertia. If both of these occurred (ball in the air for 0.5s and no other force applied) then yes it would travel 4m forward.

This rarely happens in rugby as when a ball is dropped by a player running 8 m/s, whilst the ball is travelling forwards at that rate the player will be too. Hence the player will run into the ball before it hits the ground or they will attempt to catch it, knocking the ball up/down/sideways etc.

When a ball is dropped it will also be in the air for much less time than when passed hence you don't the see the effect of inertia nearly as much when balls are fumbled to ground.

The forward pass rules are a mess due largely to how much further the ball is usually passed in the pro era. In games from the 70s the majority of passes are short and shoveled on. Routine 15-20m flat miss passes are a product of improved skills in the professional era. These are where the inertia rule becomes so tough to enforce.

It's an area where I have a lot of sympathy for refs because the game has changed so much and the laws have needed to change with it. Some changes you see in every phase so fans who learnt the game under different laws adapt quickly - tacklers having to release before attacking the ball in the ruck is a good example there. Others aren't seen as often so when they do come to the fore refs then face criticism from a myriad of different fans all viewing things from different eras of laws and interpretations.

Rugby can be a nightmare of a game to ref!

by **LondonTiger** Sun 03 Feb 2019, 8:07 pm

lostinwales wrote:Depends on flight time. Ignoring drag vs momentum for a second it would take 0.5 s to travel 4m forward. Say it is about 1m above the ground then that law of physics states
distance travelled S = 0.5 * g * time^2 (assuming no intial speed)

Say the ball is 1m above the ground when it is dropped and gravity (what the hell) is 10m/s^2 then time = square root of 0.2, or 0.45s, so it would travel about 3.6m forward.

Are we talking about an African or a European swallow.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 03 Feb 2019, 8:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Woah dont single me our LT. All I've done is a give a heads up!

Sorry my wording was bad. Was suggesting people listened to you.

by The Great Aukster Sun 03 Feb 2019, 8:33 pm

king_carlos wrote:
For the ball to travel 4m forward in a hypothetical scenario of Slade running at 8 m/s the ball would need to take half a second to hit the floor. It would also need to be dropped with no other external force applied in order to travel those 4 metres due to inertia. If both of these occurred (ball in the air for 0.5s and no other force applied) then yes it would travel 4m forward.

Thanks for the response KC. The pass was completed and must have remained in the air for at least a second, so why was it only 4m forward rather than 8m?

by lostinwales Sun 03 Feb 2019, 8:44 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
For the ball to travel 4m forward in a hypothetical scenario of Slade running at 8 m/s the ball would need to take half a second to hit the floor. It would also need to be dropped with no other external force applied in order to travel those 4 metres due to inertia. If both of these occurred (ball in the air for 0.5s and no other force applied) then yes it would travel 4m forward.

Thanks for the response KC. The pass was completed and must have remained in the air for at least a second, so why was it only 4m forward rather than 8m?

The ball is going to slow down. That or it was thrown.... BACKWARDS!!!

I could do a CFD simulation of a ball with a couple of assumptions to work out what the drag might be- as CFD is what I do for a living...

by Collapse2005 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 9:10 pm

This has turned to a bit of a nerd convention now. Anyway forward pass doesnt matter. Schmidt set it up so Ireland would lose on purpose. Its a fairly common Kiwi tactic apparently.

by robbo277 Sun 03 Feb 2019, 9:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Healy try and vunipola disallowed/Not given try are more contentious than the application of the forward pass here. As I said though not massive blunders. I didn't see mako hold it up until it was pointed out afterwards and I've seen vunipola s given and ruled out before.

I've seen tries like the Mako one given before, but there was a similar one in the France vs Wales game that was disallowed for the exact same thing. Having seen that Friday night, I knew this one would be chalked off today. I wonder if there's a new directive. There's a lot of focus on the knees, so instead of just reaching out to place the ball propelling your whole body forward when you've been tackled and held.

lostinwales wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
For the ball to travel 4m forward in a hypothetical scenario of Slade running at 8 m/s the ball would need to take half a second to hit the floor. It would also need to be dropped with no other external force applied in order to travel those 4 metres due to inertia. If both of these occurred (ball in the air for 0.5s and no other force applied) then yes it would travel 4m forward.

Thanks for the response KC. The pass was completed and must have remained in the air for at least a second, so why was it only 4m forward rather than 8m?

The ball is going to slow down. That or it was thrown.... BACKWARDS!!!

I could do a CFD simulation of a ball with a couple of assumptions to work out what the drag might be- as CFD is what I do for a living...

Slade may not have been running forward at a rate of 8m/s. If he's running on a diagonal then it wouldn't all be forward momentum or if he slows into the pass then he wouldn't be at top speed on release. And yeah, if his hands force the ball backwards relative to him, then there would be counteracting forces and it wouldn't go forward the full 8m you'd expect if he threw a perfectly flat pass at 8m/s.

by Taylorman Mon 04 Feb 2019, 6:35 am

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Nah as an AB supporter cant agree with that. If you cant be ruthless enough to finish a match on the up then you have major motivation issues.

See, Tman, you're making the mistake of universaling ABs mentality and/or situation again. I think you do it a lot - which is fine, but you have to understand NZ isn't the epicentre around which everything else revolves: the ABs are the ABs, and Scotland are Scotland, rather than a poor version of the ABs.

Hope you get my drift...

Yeah I get your drift, which is to hand out a lesson in mediocrity, which has prevailed in NH rugby for over a hundered years. Its finally seeping through in sides like Ireland and England have been there or abouts several times. Scotland havent, so had a point to prove.

Its not about culture, its about winning in sport, whether youre Ireland, Wales, Oz, SA and yes Scotland. You might think I think rugby revolves around the ABs and NZ rugby but Im not alone. Wales, Ireland and Scotland also think that, because they enlisted coaches for that reason. No one gets into the players psyche in this sport more than the coach. Vern Cotter wasnt called in because he understood the Scottish psyche. He was brought in because he understood winning rugby.

Think youre selling them short, and if theyre thinking that way, they need to change. ABs or not.

You've missed the point entirely.

Nah, I havent. But happy to disagree.

by yappysnap Mon 04 Feb 2019, 7:54 am

Just watching the highlights and a few thoughts:

1. The first Irish try was 100% held up by Mako
2. Slade put together a great selection of passes and kicks
3. Farrell looks a lot more comfy at 10 with another play maker helping
4. That last Irish try seemed a bit forward
5. As Ford runs the ball off the pitch to end the game, the childish little push by Ireland 11 sums up how total this win was

by Collapse2005 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 7:58 am

yappysnap wrote:Just watching the highlights and a few thoughts:

1. The first Irish try was 100% held up by Mako
2. Slade put together a great selection of passes and kicks
3. Farrell looks a lot more comfy at 10 with another play maker helping
4. That last Irish try seemed a bit forward
5. As Ford runs the ball off the pitch to end the game, the childish little push by Ireland 11 sums up how total this win was

Quite a lot of bitterness in one post. Thought England won?

by El Radar Mon 04 Feb 2019, 8:03 am

Bitterness or just a balanced appraisal of how things actually went, a 32-20 scoreline flatters Ireland a lot.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 8:10 am

There was a bit of niggle by Stockdale and POM. For all that England tried to get that going last year Saturday demonstrated it's pressure built in the right way on the pitch which leads to teams not sticking to their own tasks. There were a couple.od silly errors still but they weren't followed up and compounded by bad mistakes after that. Mitchell deserves huge credit as does Borthwick for the way the lineout went.

by Collapse2005 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 8:38 am

El Radar wrote:Bitterness or just a balanced appraisal of how things actually went, a 32-20 scoreline flatters Ireland a lot.

Sounds like a lot of whinging to me. I mean I could also complain about "incidents" in the game but they probably evened themselves out in the game and the team with the better game plan won.

Scoreline reflects England's dominance. Ireland like England last year are a proud side who refused to give up even when the game is over and softened the scoreline with a good try at the end. I have lots of respect for that.

by Collapse2005 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 8:56 am

Jeepers Id hate to see the pity party you lads would throw if you actually lost Hug

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 Feb 2019, 9:05 am

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Woah dont single me our LT. All I've done is a give a heads up!

Sorry my wording was bad. Was suggesting people listened to you.

Not sure if you saw this 7.5 - but again apologies if I caused any anxiety.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 Feb 2019, 9:14 am

yappysnap wrote:Just watching the highlights and a few thoughts:

1. The first Irish try was 100% held up by Mako
2. Slade put together a great selection of passes and kicks
3. Farrell looks a lot more comfy at 10 with another play maker helping
4. That last Irish try seemed a bit forward
5. As Ford runs the ball off the pitch to end the game, the childish little push by Ireland 11 sums up how total this win was

1) Probably but Garces was sure he saw grounding and if the question had been "Any reason I cannot award a try" there was sufficient doubt to not over-rule.
2) Slade had a really good game
3) Being on the front foot probably helped Farrell more than having Slade at 13.
4) Looked ok to me - ball may have travelled forward, but went back from the passer
5) Did not see that.

by LordDowlais Mon 04 Feb 2019, 9:35 am

I just wrote this on the Welsh thread, but I suppose it's relevant here as well:-

This forum is very amusing at times, it really is.

Wales get two tries, one from a fumble and one from an interception and they were gifted, and down to ineptitude, England get two tries, one from an interception and one from a fumble and it is down to world class pressure.

Only on V2. Rolling Eyes

In saying that, England were by far the better side and the score line flattered Ireland. England done their homework. Ireland did not have an answer to them.

by BamBam Mon 04 Feb 2019, 9:43 am

LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Just watching the highlights and a few thoughts:

1. The first Irish try was 100% held up by Mako
2. Slade put together a great selection of passes and kicks
3. Farrell looks a lot more comfy at 10 with another play maker helping
4. That last Irish try seemed a bit forward
5. As Ford runs the ball off the pitch to end the game, the childish little push by Ireland 11 sums up how total this win was

1) Probably but Garces was sure he saw grounding and if the question had been "Any reason I cannot award a try" there was sufficient doubt to not over-rule.
2) Slade had a really good game
3) Being on the front foot probably helped Farrell more than having Slade at 13.
4) Looked ok to me - ball may have travelled forward, but went back from the passer
5) Did not see that.

I agree with most of this, but I did see the push at the end. It wasn't much tbh, the usual handbags when the ball goes over the line and the opposition want the ball back, although obviously this was at the end of the game!

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 Feb 2019, 9:53 am

LD,

North's interception was a good read but a blooming awful pass when France were attacking in the Welsh half and in the lead (just). Slade made a good read when Ireland were pinned back in their own 22 and more than a score behind.

Huget's fumble was made with minimal pressure on him, similar to May for England, unlike May he did not recover it. Stockdale was undone by the bounce and was being tackled as he laid hands on the ball.

So the extreme view of Wales gifted but England world class pressure is rather over the top - I would argue that England had forced errors from Ireland more than Wales had from France for these two tries each.

by LordDowlais Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:02 am

The way I look at it LT, was that Wales were putting so much pressure on the bigger French players in the second half, and they were shattered, thus leading to silly errors. Wales finished the game much stronger.

But as i said, for the game in question on this thread, England were simply better than Ireland on Saturday, and no matter how many "gifted" tries, they deserved their win.

Ireland did not have an answer to England.

by **rodders** Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:05 am

Haven't read back so apologies if I've repeated anything -

Firstly congratulations England, that was a superb performance. Ireland were out muscled and out smarted. As much as I hate to say it, Jones pulled of a masterclass. England pretty much took all Ireland's strengths away, winning the arial battle, dominating territory and winning most of the collisions, which pretty much stifled all of Ireland's attacks.

Although Ireland have lost games under Schmidt that is one of the few times we've been dominated so you have to tip your hat to a better team on the day.

From an Ireland perspective we were disappointing but a lot of that was down to how England played, we just couldn't find an answer to their power and lost a bit of composure at time, trying to play from deep of slow ball, which is exactly what they wanted.

Time and time we kicked to May and he dealt with it superbly, it was like England dealt with plan A and plan B and we were found wanting to work out a solution.

A few players definitely were a bit off the pace - Murray, Sexton, Toner and Henshaw looked like players who haven't played much recently and this wasn't the game to ease back into it. Henshaw did his best but was exposed a few times with England finding space in behind and working him side to side to tire him out. It will be interesting to see if Schmidt brings Kearney back next week or sticks with Henshaw at the back.

Ringrose was probably Ireland's best player, VDF got through a lot of work, O'Brien and Roux did well off the bench and the set piece was solid but other than that we were bested all over the park.

England look a good bet for the slam, for Ireland we need to pick ourselves up quickly or could be looking at 3/4th place finish with a very tough run of fixtures. Thankfully with it being a RWC year there is still plenty to play for.....

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:05 am

El Radar wrote:Bitterness or just a balanced appraisal of how things actually went, a 32-20 scoreline flatters Ireland a lot.

Ah come on, I think we're getting a little carried away.

Up until the 3rd score in the 2nd half, the game was still on a knifes edge. I was pretty tense for most of the game and only relaxed somewhat when we got 2 scores ahead. Yes we were the better side and deserved the win, but I don't think the scoreline particularly flattered anyone.

by Collapse2005 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:08 am

rodders wrote:Haven't read back so apologies if I've repeated anything -

Firstly congratulations England, that was a superb performance. Ireland were out muscled and out smarted. As much as I hate to say it, Jones pulled of a masterclass. England pretty much took all Ireland's strengths away, winning the arial battle, dominating territory and winning most of the collisions, which pretty much stifled all of Ireland's attacks.

Although Ireland have lost games under Schmidt that is one of the few times we've been dominated so you have to tip your hat to a better team on the day.

From an Ireland perspective we were disappointing but a lot of that was down to how England played, we just couldn't find an answer to their power and lost a bit of composure at time, trying to play from deep of slow ball, which is exactly what they wanted.

Time and time we kicked to May and he dealt with it superbly, it was like England dealt with plan A and plan B and we were found wanting to work out a solution.

A few players definitely were a bit off the pace - Murray, Sexton, Toner and Henshaw looked like players who haven't played much recently and this wasn't the game to ease back into it. Henshaw did his best but was exposed a few times with England finding space in behind and working him side to side to tire him out. It will be interesting to see if Schmidt brings Kearney back next week or sticks with Henshaw at the back.

Ringrose was probably Ireland's best player, VDF got through a lot of work, O'Brien and Roux did well off the bench and the set piece was solid but other than that we were bested all over the park.

England look a good bet for the slam, for Ireland we need to pick ourselves up quickly or could be looking at 3/4th place finish with a very tough run of fixtures. Thankfully with it being a RWC year there is still plenty to play for.....

Good summary

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:15 am

Ah you're ok LT! Just my guilty conscience after having a comment removed myself!

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:16 am

The difference between those instances Lord could be down to unenforced errors vs direct pressure.
Though the filthy conditions on Friday in comparison to saturdays games.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The difference between those instances Lord could be down to unenforced errors vs direct pressure.
Though the filthy conditions on Friday in comparison to saturdays games.

Which is not to deny that Wales were putting pressure on France, just different.

Conditions and opponents so different you cannot compare performances anyway. That will have to wait for 3 weeks.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:39 am

Absolutely. Just looking at them though they are different even though you can classify them in the same bracket. Ireland had spent large periods not exiting their half well enough and were at the point of having to roll the dice. They were pressured and pass made to try and get on the outside. Should have been kicked but they needed to try and create a try asap. France 1 bad pass let the Welsh line advance. They were still excited by the break and tried the spectacular pass when it should have been a hard carry and reset. They were leading and in those conditions play in the opposition half.
Huget under a bit of.pressure yes but had time at that level. Conditions partly did him but should really have taken it. Stockdale gets a bad bounce and is tackled at the moment he's gathering.
Same but different.

by **rodders** Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:39 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
El Radar wrote:Bitterness or just a balanced appraisal of how things actually went, a 32-20 scoreline flatters Ireland a lot.

Ah come on, I think we're getting a little carried away.

Up until the 3rd score in the 2nd half, the game was still on a knifes edge. I was pretty tense for most of the game and only relaxed somewhat when we got 2 scores ahead. Yes we were the better side and deserved the win, but I don't think the scoreline particularly flattered anyone.

I agree actually, England were definitely 2 score winners and comfortably better over 80 min.

Ireland got the late score to add a bit of respectability but on the flip side England maybe go a bit of luck with a couple of the scores - a better bounce and Stockdale deals with that kick on the second try and was their a forward pass for England's third?

There was a point were it was in balance but that period before and after half time Ireland were uncharacteristically poor, which exasperated a poor start.

For me England were always in control, deserved of the bonus win, whereas Ireland would probably have been riding their luck to get a point.

by robbo277 Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:52 am

LordDowlais wrote:The way I look at it LT, was that Wales were putting so much pressure on the bigger French players in the second half, and they were shattered, thus leading to silly errors. Wales finished the game much stronger.

But as i said, for the game in question on this thread, England were simply better than Ireland on Saturday, and no matter how many "gifted" tries, they deserved their win.

Ireland did not have an answer to England.

This may be true, but Huget and Vahaamahina were under very little pressure when they made their errors. I agree with LT, it's not fair to say that England was purely down to pressure and Wales just lived off France's mistakes, but in those two individual instances there is a difference in the context.

Fumbles: Stockdale was gathering the ball when he got Jack Nowell in his back and dislodged the ball. Huget just missed it.
Intercepts: Sexton was trying to get his side back in the game and had Youngs rushing him. Vahaamahina had time (too much time?) but he should have just trucked it up. They were two points up, they had the ball, they had the territory, they had the clock. He'll regret his pass, Sexton won't regret his, even if he did get picked off.

Fair play to Wales for getting back in the game, sticking in there, and North's persistence chasing Parkes kick and skill in reading and picking off the intercept and running it in shouldn't be understated. Away wins in Paris aren't easy, no-one thrashes them out there, so Wales should be happy with the result they got. 24-3 in the second half is as good as it gets, regardless of how the tries came.

by dummy_half Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:58 am

Rodders

A very fair summary from an Irish perspective. I'm not sure Ireland played poorly, but they simply weren't allowed to play better - the difference between being 2m over the gain line and 2m behind it all game is huge.

BTW, no way on the current interpretation of the forward pass law that the pass from Slade gets called - we've had plenty of discussion over the years regarding momentum and the meaning of 'thrown forwards', and that was a classic example of the type of pass that travels forward because of momentum; looks OK in real time but when you see in slo-mo it's collected a couple of strides in front of where it's released. I know several of us do not like this interpretation, but at least it is (reasonably) consistently applied.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:08 am

Taken from The Times:

48-8

England made 48 dominant tackles compared with 8 by Ireland. A dominant tackle is: "Where the defender stops the ball carrier on impact and/or drives him backwards"

by eirebilly Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:08 am

No complaints from me, England were by far the hungrier and better team on the day. They nullified all the Irish threats and I have never seen Furlong be knocked back in contact as much as that. CJ was perfectly marshalled as well and did not have the impact he usually does.

Fair dues to the England team, just better organised and got their tactics perfect on the day. Don't think Ireland played that badly just second best at almost every aspect of the game.

Enjoy the win English lads thumbsup

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