England vs Ireland, Part 2

For continuing discussion of Ireland vs England in Round 3 of the Six Nations

Previous thread; https://www.606v2.com/t51752-england-vs-ireland

Ireland have released various players to the provinces; starting for Ulster against the Scarlets on Friday are Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave and Iain Henderson. Leinster have named Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Martin Moore, Mike McCarthy, Rhys Ruddock, Jordi Murphy, Eoin Reddan, Ian Madigan and Fergus McFadden in their team to face Newport-Gwent Dragons. Tommy O'Donnell and Felix Jones will feature for Munster.

There's a lot of competition, mainly for the spots on the bench and possible starts later in the tournament. Can Madigan oust Paddy Jackson? Can Jordi Murphy or Rhys Ruddock force their way in ahead of Tommy O'Donnell? Can McFadden or Simon Zebo force their way into the back three? Who will replace the injured Dan Tuohy; Iain Henderson, Mike McCarthy or Donnacha Ryan? The latter is back from injury and likely to play some part for Munster.

Dan Tuohy has been ruled out of the tournament while Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald and Tommy Bowe are still injured and everyone is praying Johnny Sexton doesn't pick up a knock; he's expected to be riding the pine for Racing Metro.

Any English posters want to update us on their squad?

Ireland are going to get destroyed. They're a bunch of over rated wannabes and their coach is living off past glories built on the success of a squad he had built for him by his predecessors.   

Look out for Nowell, he'll be the one rewriting Ashtons book on wing play   

Must have got rowdy back on the old thread.  Closed Down.  Good stuff guys, you finally did your duty on the agro front.  
No respectable match-up of significance should get by without a thread being locked due to fury and blood injuries.. (blood capsules not allowed as a substitute)

Anyway.... Yappy.  100% agree with you.  Spot on!

Not rowdy, just long. Thought I might as well do the transition when I'm here.

SecretFly wrote:
Anyway.... Yappy.  100% agree with you.  Spot on!

It's people like you that are ruining this site!

I got the impression Scrumpy wasn't to pleased that we want to beat other teams more. We're finally getting on after 800 years and he wants to be hated again.

But ye haven't insulted our President in ages. And haven't even invaded any other countries in a year or two now. Yer gettin' soft lads.

It's true, the real grudge match for Ireland being with Wales doesn't sit well with some English fans as it reflects the uncomfortable truth that Wales have been a better team that England for a little while now.

I do think England will be a better team than Wales by the next RWC though. England are on the rise, I'd be thoroughly looking forward to their World Cup meeting with Wales if I didn't know that it'll mean us poor mods will be wading through an incredible amount of Poopie

Notch wrote:For continuing discussion of Ireland vs England in Round 3 of the Six Nations

Previous thread; https://www.606v2.com/t51752-england-vs-ireland

Ireland have released various players to the provinces; starting for Ulster against the Scarlets on Friday are Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave and Iain Henderson. Leinster have named Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Martin Moore, Mike McCarthy, Rhys Ruddock, Jordi Murphy, Eoin Reddan, Ian Madigan and Fergus McFadden in their team to face Newport-Gwent Dragons. Tommy O'Donnell and Felix Jones will feature for Munster.

There's a lot of competition, mainly for the spots on the bench and possible starts later in the tournament. Can Madigan oust Paddy Jackson? Can Jordi Murphy or Rhys Ruddock force their way in ahead of Tommy O'Donnell? Can McFadden or Simon Zebo force their way into the back three? Who will replace the injured Dan Tuohy; Iain Henderson, Mike McCarthy or Donnacha Ryan? The latter is back from injury and likely to play some part for Munster.

Dan Tuohy has been ruled out of the tournament while Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald and Tommy Bowe are still injured and everyone is praying Johnny Sexton doesn't pick up a knock; he's expected to be riding the pine for Racing Metro.

Any English posters want to update us on their squad?

Nothing exciting going on in the squad at the moment. Following an interview today Lancs has pretty much confirmed that the starting XV will be the same again. He has however, said that the bench is a different matter.

Unfortunately the one change a lot of fans wanted to see was Webber coming onto the bench but he's now injured. He could've added a lot of carrying and excellent defence around the ruck.

The players I'd like to see included are Ben Youngs, George Ford and Anthony Watson. Youngs' box kicking is very good and I'd back him to raise his game significantly at HQ. GF had another excellent game for Bath last weekend and still offers some pitching radically different from Farrell. His place kicking must improve however.

Watson is more of an unknown for all but he's a far better sub option than Barritt or Goode. He's great under the high ball and has excellent pace. If we need to hammer home the advantage these three are the lads to do it in the back line. Forwards to remain the same with Attwood adding much needed maul stopping power.

Notch wrote:It's true, the real grudge match for Ireland being with Wales doesn't sit well with some English fans as it reflects the uncomfortable truth that Wales have been a better team that England for a little while now.

I do think England will be a better team than Wales by the next RWC though. England are on the rise, I'd be thoroughly looking forward to their World Cup meeting with Wales if I didn't know that it'll mean us poor mods will be wading through an incredible amount of Poopie

Not sure about that. I don't see Wales having beaten Australia and NZ yet.

Gosh we are on pt 2 already ?

Feckless Rogue wrote:I got the impression Scrumpy wasn't to pleased that we want to beat other teams more. We're finally getting on after 800 years and he wants to be hated again.

But ye haven't insulted our President in ages. And haven't even invaded any other countries in a year or two now. Yer gettin' soft lads.

What's to insult... everyone loves Bilbo. One of the best out of LOTR.

Notch wrote:It's true, the real grudge match for Ireland being with Wales doesn't sit well with some English fans as it reflects the uncomfortable truth that Wales have been a better team that England for a little while now.

I do think England will be a better team than Wales by the next RWC though. England are on the rise, I'd be thoroughly looking forward to their World Cup meeting with Wales if I didn't know that it'll mean us poor mods will be wading through an incredible amount of Poopie

I think that is possibly one of the problems for many Welsh fans as they can't understand why we don't see them as our main rival. Ask most England fans who we absolutely must beat at any cost.... if we only won one match the whole year... who would it be?

 They will most likely say Australia or France.

I would also support anyone else playing them... Ireland, Scotland etc. And have done.

In addition to the above... I nearly fell off my sofa screaming at Ireland to beat New Zealand.

Notch wrote:Any English posters want to update us on their squad?

Think I saw that Yarde might theoretically be back in consideration. Don't think he'd just be thrown back in though. Personally still feel either side could win big, Ireland marginally the more likely to do so by virtue of experience. England with a lot of promise but will have to show a more complete game than we have so far. Hard to know what to take from the Scotland game even now, but winning at Twickenham certainly isn't beyond us, I think.   

Chjw131 wrote:Nothing exciting going on in the squad at the moment. Following an interview today Lancs has pretty much confirmed that the starting XV will be the same again. He has however, said that the bench is a different matter.

Manu is back.

Manu perhaps number 22 and Barrett to drop out?

Chjw131 wrote:

Notch wrote:It's true, the real grudge match for Ireland being with Wales doesn't sit well with some English fans as it reflects the uncomfortable truth that Wales have been a better team that England for a little while now.

I do think England will be a better team than Wales by the next RWC though. England are on the rise, I'd be thoroughly looking forward to their World Cup meeting with Wales if I didn't know that it'll mean us poor mods will be wading through an incredible amount of Poopie

Not sure about that. I don't see Wales having beaten Australia and NZ yet.

That doesn't have anything to do with the price of cheese I'm afraid.

England have a 4-3 record against Wales across the last five years, and are deservedly higher in the world rankings so there's a strong argument England are the better side overall. But when it comes to the Six Nations in that period Wales have a Grand Slam and a championship win with 4 victories, whereas England only have a championship win (again with four victories). Going back further, Wales have had two slams in the period since the last English slam.

Sport is a cruel world, and its defined by trophies. Believe me, I'd love it if it weren't because it would mean Ireland were the best of the Home Unions since the Six Nations started- we've won a lot of games, but we haven't won the trophies that make that stat worth anything. It's the fact Wales are the reigning champions and the most recent team to win the Slam, alongside the other two slams they've won since 2005, that makes them the bigger scalp than England right now. I do expect England to be more successful than Wales over the next 5 years but who knows what'll happen? It'll be a big ask for any side to get 3 slams and a championship in the next 8 years. That record makes them the team to beat in NH rugby.

Of course there's nothing between England and Wales really. Nor between Ireland and either team. It's how close in quality the sides are that makes this a great tournament, in spite of the fact the rugby often isn't the best.

Metal Tiger wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Nothing exciting going on in the squad at the moment. Following an interview today Lancs has pretty much confirmed that the starting XV will be the same again. He has however, said that the bench is a different matter.

Manu is back.

Is he? lasat I heard he was still a doubt even coming off the bench against newcastle let alone starting tests
England dont need him, why risk it?

Notch wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Notch wrote:It's true, the real grudge match for Ireland being with Wales doesn't sit well with some English fans as it reflects the uncomfortable truth that Wales have been a better team that England for a little while now.

I do think England will be a better team than Wales by the next RWC though. England are on the rise, I'd be thoroughly looking forward to their World Cup meeting with Wales if I didn't know that it'll mean us poor mods will be wading through an incredible amount of Poopie

Not sure about that. I don't see Wales having beaten Australia and NZ yet.

That doesn't have anything to do with the price of cheese I'm afraid.

England have a 4-3 record against Wales across the last five years, and are deservedly higher in the world rankings so there's a strong argument England are the better side overall. But when it comes to the Six Nations in that period Wales have a Grand Slam and a championship win with 4 victories, whereas England only have a championship win (again with four victories). Going back further, Wales have had two slams in the period since the last English slam.

Sport is a cruel world, and its defined by trophies. Believe me, I'd love it if it weren't because it would mean Ireland were the best of the Home Unions since the Six Nations started- we've won a lot of games, but we haven't won the trophies that make that stat worth anything. It's the fact Wales are the reigning champions and the most recent team to win the Slam, alongside the other two slams they've won since 2005, that makes them the bigger scalp than England right now. I do expect England to be more successful than Wales over the next 5 years but who knows what'll happen? It'll be a big ask for any side to get 3 slams and a championship in the next 8 years. That record makes them the team to beat in NH rugby.

Of course there's nothing between England and Wales really. Nor between Ireland and either team. It's how close in quality the sides are that makes this a great tournament, in spite of the fact the rugby often isn't the best.

I completely take your point Notch and had you said that Wales were a better side than England in this Championship then yes hands down they're run away winners in that regard.

What you actually said though was that 'it reflects the uncomfortable truth that Wales have been a better team than England for a little while now'. I don't think the results taken in the round remotely reflect that. I'm not saying England are by far and away a better team but we've consistently been competitive with, and been able to beat SH sides including the sport's best ever team.

If you were referring purely to the 6N then apologies for jumping the gun!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Nothing exciting going on in the squad at the moment. Following an interview today Lancs has pretty much confirmed that the starting XV will be the same again. He has however, said that the bench is a different matter.

Manu is back.

Is he? lasat I heard he was still a doubt even coming off the bench against newcastle let alone starting tests
England dont need him, why risk it?

Got to agree with PSW let's let Manu get some good game time under his belt. There's no point in rushing him back in and the expectation on him will be absurd.

The thing is C, we never play England in the autumn internationals or the summer for obvious reasons. Only time we'd ever play them outside the 6N is rugby world cup warm-ups, which aren't really always proper test matches anyway.

So when I'm thinking who's the bigger scalp for Ireland, I tend to just ignore the games against the SH because they aren't really relevant to the 6N. I thought it was an unwritten rule that all NH bragging rights are determined by the 6N?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Nothing exciting going on in the squad at the moment. Following an interview today Lancs has pretty much confirmed that the starting XV will be the same again. He has however, said that the bench is a different matter.

Manu is back.

Is he? lasat I heard he was still a doubt even coming off the bench against newcastle let alone starting tests
England dont need him, why risk it?

Shhhhhhh!   

Yappy got it straight away but then my petard gets hoisted by a fellow Tiger!    

Notch wrote:I thought it was an unwritten rule that all NH bragging rights are determined by the 6N?

It is. But rules are broken pretty easily in 606 when it comes to braggng rights. There's always a stat that says you're wrong and I'm right...even though the same stat says I'm wrong and you're right. Depends on who is using it.

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:I thought it was an unwritten rule that all NH bragging rights are determined by the 6N?

It is.  But rules are broken pretty easily in 606 when it comes to braggng rights.  There's always a stat that says you're wrong and I'm right...even though the same stat says I'm wrong and you're right.  Depends on who is using it.

87% of people know that 62% of statistics are made up.

Lies.
Damned Lies.
And statistics.

Ok run out of shoite quotes now.

Not to mentioned that 37% of proven statistics are wrong 82% of the time (statistically)

I for one am impressed that you guys have maxed out a match thread a week befor the game kicks off. I think this is partially due to the fantastic work done by the mods this year who despite my initial reservations have turned out to have found a nice balance. Who's with me on a round of applause?   

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not to mentioned that 37% of proven statistics are wrong 82% of the time (statistically)

I for one am impressed that you guys have maxed out a match thread a week befor the game kicks off. I think this is partially due to the fantastic work done by the mods this year who despite my initial reservations have turned out to have found a nice balance. Who's with me on a round of applause?   

why don't you have your nose surgically removed from their collective r$%^&m.  

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not to mentioned that 37% of proven statistics are wrong 82% of the time (statistically)

I for one am impressed that you guys have maxed out a match thread a week befor the game kicks off. I think this is partially due to the fantastic work done by the mods this year who despite my initial reservations have turned out to have found a nice balance. Who's with me on a round of applause?   

why don't you have your nose surgically removed from their collective r$%^&m.  

Yikes. Credit where it's due! Nothing more.

What has happened to you GE, have you found religion?

No, but I found a huge beetle the size of my foot in the bed this morning. Scared the crap out of me. First of all I thought my foot and turned black and fallen off.

you on holiday?

or in prison?

Yeah. Former. Limited internet. I get about three hours per day so I have to think more carefully about what I say.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Yeah. Former. Limited internet. I get about three hours per day so I have to think more carefully about what I say.

it doesn't show

Glad to see you were up so early to start spreading the love.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not to mentioned that 37% of proven statistics are wrong 82% of the time (statistically)

I for one am impressed that you guys have maxed out a match thread a week befor the game kicks off. I think this is partially due to the fantastic work done by the mods this year who despite my initial reservations have turned out to have found a nice balance. Who's with me on a round of applause?   

why don't you have your nose surgically removed from their collective r$%^&m.  

Yikes. Credit where it's due! Nothing more.

Theres always someone who has to prove you wrong isnt there!

Notch wrote:The thing is C, we never play England in the autumn internationals or the summer for obvious reasons. Only time we'd ever play them outside the 6N is rugby world cup warm-ups, which aren't really always proper test matches anyway.

So when I'm thinking who's the bigger scalp for Ireland, I tend to just ignore the games against the SH because they aren't really relevant to the 6N. I thought it was an unwritten rule that all NH bragging rights are determined by the 6N?

Not when it suits!

Metal Tiger wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Nothing exciting going on in the squad at the moment. Following an interview today Lancs has pretty much confirmed that the starting XV will be the same again. He has however, said that the bench is a different matter.

Manu is back.

That will be the first time in over a decade (14 years) that England will field exactly the same team three games in a row in the 6N. If they pick the same team four times in a row they equal their record which they have only ever done three times before. The last time being in 1995.

GunsGerms wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Nothing exciting going on in the squad at the moment. Following an interview today Lancs has pretty much confirmed that the starting XV will be the same again. He has however, said that the bench is a different matter.

Manu is back.

That will be the first time in over a decade (14 years) that England will field exactly the same team three games in a row in the 6N. If they pick the same team four times in a row they equal their record which they have only ever done three times before. The last time being in 1995.

It's nice to see some consistency for once, even though not all the selections would be my choice. It looks like the pack is particularly settled which is nice to see, the back-line could be taking shape. It'll certainly be interesting to see who forces their way back in when all are fit.

I have a feeling Parling and Wade may struggle. Attwood always seemed a far better bench option and whilst I think Wade is an awesome player there's only room for one maverick in Lancs' teams and Jonny May may be it.

The reason Scotland lost to England was because England were very, very good. Most other teams would have struggled. Ireland at HQ must be terrifying for Ireland especially with a green coach. Swing low...

Yeah, there is always a fear factor when any Nation plays itself at HQ.  

Meanwhile, Ireland put a better score on Scotland having only played one half (2nd).  Respect for England? - most definitely.  Terrified? - Absolutely.  
Heaslip is even saying on Twitter that he really doesn't want to go.  He's hoping he picks up an injury in training that gets him out of it

englandglory4ever wrote:The reason Scotland lost to England was because England were very, very good. Most other teams would have struggled. Ireland at HQ must be terrifying for Ireland especially with a green coach. Swing low...

The way things are going theyll be able to get a boat door to door, no need for the coach

I believe the world champs at underwater rugby are the Swedes. Maybe we need to look to expand the 6N

englandglory4ever wrote:The reason Scotland lost to England was because England were very, very good.

Nothing to do with Scotland being woeful? Not even a tiny bit? that was one of if not the worst scotland performance I have ever seen

englandglory4ever wrote: Most other teams would have struggled. Ireland at HQ must be terrifying for Ireland especially with a green coach. Swing low...

Really? England were decent and workmanlike but hardly amazing. Well drilled, made few mistakes but didn't show a huge amount of incisiveness in the backs bar Burrell who ran some fine angles and care who looked very lively indeed. Nothing there to threaten the Irish especially given the irish demolition of Wales - and the manner of it. If ireland perform as well again especially at the breakdown where I have hardly seen a better performance then england will find it very difficult to get enough possession and territory. Sexton is in imperious form and will make a huge difference. Of course if Farrell can live up to his hype and ply with more variety he could make life hard for ireland. I don't see much between the teams really but I think Ireland could well win and would have them as slight favourites.

Thought Farrell, Twelvetrees, May and Nowell all did well to be fair TJ. Not to mention the man of the match.

But it is true that England rarely got out of 2nd gear. The best Scottish defender was the pitch though.

The match doesnt tell us much apart from the fact that England defense and control is right up there, and that the Hartley/Lawes combo is very strong in the lineout.

englandglory4ever wrote:The reason Scotland lost to England was because England were very, very good. Most other teams would have struggled. Ireland at HQ must be terrifying for Ireland especially with a green coach. Swing low...

Ireland are so good they are afraid of themselves? If I was Paul O'Connell or Cian Healy I probably would be afraid of myself.

Twickers holds no fear for Ireland. Most of the team have won there before. Even when Ireland were dreadful in the 90s they still managed a win on occasion there. Nothing to fear really.

Farrell is improving game on game but still not in Sextons class. 36 a very mixed bag as was Nowell and May - all my opinion over the two games. Scotland were so woeful its hard to see how good the england performance was really.
I think the potential of this England team is greater than the Irish team but the Irish are at their peak now - England still need to climb to it. The way the Irish seemed to instictivly know whether to attack the breakdown or stand off it, and the unpredictability of this for their opponents was absolutely outstanding. I think this will allow them to take turnover ball off england and sexton will keep the England back 3 honest and force them to play deep.

We will see - and I am quite prepared to have to eat my words.

Can I be the first to say - England for the grand slam in 2015? BY then they should be the complete team and will be as good as many england fans think they are.

Scotland like Wales were made to look poor because of the excellence of their opponents. Scotland over watered the pitch in the hope of slowing us down but it couldn't stop England. Wales believed their own hype too much. They should have got the message now. As long as our pack turns up revved up we should be too much for the leprechauns.

englandglory4ever wrote:Scotland like Wales were made to look poor because of the excellence of their opponents. Scotland over watered the pitch in the hope of slowing us down but it couldn't stop England. Wales believed their own hype too much. They should have got the message now. As long as our pack turns up revved up we should be too much for the leprechauns.

Yes my lad - if England play to their best it's going to be a comfortable win for rugby's birthplace.   

Swing Low!!!!!

I'm almost starting to be for England myself!

You guys are doing a great sale's pitch. Keep it coming but no foot in my doorway please.... just talk from the roadside gate...I'll hear you.

englandglory4ever wrote:Scotland like Wales were made to look poor because of the excellence of their opponents. Scotland over watered the pitch in the hope of slowing us down but it couldn't stop England. Wales believed their own hype too much. They should have got the message now. As long as our pack turns up revved up we should be too much for the leprechauns.

Scotland looked poor because they were. As simple as that. If Scotland play like that against Italy they will be well beaten. I have been following Scottish rugby since the 70s and while we have had plenty of disappointments in that time I cannot remember a worse performance.

SecretFly wrote:Swing Low!!!!!  

I'm almost starting to be for England myself!  

You guys are doing a great sale's pitch.  Keep it coming but no foot in my doorway please.... just talk from the roadside gate...I'll hear you.

But its raining awful hard out here. Can't we get inside? just for a minute?