Political round up.............

by **JuliusHMarx** Fri 23 Nov 2018, 12:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Thread Split! Culture Cup Rules!

by Samo Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:14 pm

Raab is out. Probably the second worst option after Johnson, so thats something.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:29 pm

Samo wrote:Raab is out. Probably the second worst option after Johnson, so thats something.

Another prat out. Remind me again - why is the Dover-Calais link important to us as an island nation?

by Duty281 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 6:54 pm

Unless a scandal engulfs and brings down Boris, it should be plain sailing for him to win the leadership contest. Looking like the final two will be him v Stewart - the latter is disliked by most of the Tory membership, so has little real chance.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 18 Jun 2019, 8:38 pm

Michael Gove calling himself the "Pro relief on Poverty candidate"

Shame he hasn't been in Govt for the last nine years...

Oh wait a minute !!!...

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue 18 Jun 2019, 9:34 pm

Michael Gove has the first three letters of Govt in his surname. For that reason alone, I think he'd do as good a job as Arsene Wenger did at Arsenal.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 19 Jun 2019, 7:25 am

Is it just me or do I hear more Tories current MPs waxing lyrical about BJ merely on the strengths they believe he can win them the next election. That seems to be their raison d'etre and they do not seem to give a stuff by this Tory-made Brexit nightmare.

by SecretFly Wed 19 Jun 2019, 8:24 am

They are a political party. Their very oxygen is Election success... ?

Put it this way; the Tories think Johnson will get them elected? So they have a gut instinct that people (a majority) will still vote for them, WITH the alleged hard Brexiteer champion as their Leader.

In other words, Craig, they don't believe your opinion of them, or indeed of Brexit, is the majority opinion. You say it yourself; they think he can WIN.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 19 Jun 2019, 8:39 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:Michael Gove has the first three letters of Govt in his surname. For that reason alone, I think he'd do as good a job as Arsene Wenger did at Arsenal.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 19 Jun 2019, 8:40 am

SecretFly wrote:They are a political party. Their very oxygen is Election success... ?

Put it this way; the Tories think Johnson will get them elected? So they have a gut instinct that people (a majority) will still vote for them, WITH the alleged hard Brexiteer champion as their Leader.

In other words, Craig, they don't believe your opinion of them, or indeed of Brexit, is the majority opinion. You say it yourself; they think he can WIN.

Yes but what comes first on this political agenda? Brexit has to be negotiated/dealt with before any general election. Well Coco the Clown made a faux pas on that front last night. He revealed he'd keep goods flowing through the Irish Border in event of either No Deal or thereafter negotiation period with the EU. However, his plan to stick with current arrangements for free movement of goods. cannot be as that law only remains with an agreement/deal in place. Evidently, his ideas/plans for Brexit are a train crash waiting to happen. Now this is before we get into his repulsive thoughts and remarks about Muslims, Scots and Scousers. If the Tories believe he is the best man for the job then what does that say about Tory voters.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 19 Jun 2019, 8:40 am

SecretFly wrote:They are a political party. Their very oxygen is Election success... ?

Put it this way; the Tories think Johnson will get them elected? So they have a gut instinct that people (a majority) will still vote for them, WITH the alleged hard Brexiteer champion as their Leader.

In other words, Craig, they don't believe your opinion of them, or indeed of Brexit, is the majority opinion. You say it yourself; they think he can WIN.

True, but they've been getting so much right elsewhere, recently, haven't they?

by SecretFly Wed 19 Jun 2019, 8:55 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
SecretFly wrote:They are a political party. Their very oxygen is Election success... ?

Put it this way; the Tories think Johnson will get them elected? So they have a gut instinct that people (a majority) will still vote for them, WITH the alleged hard Brexiteer champion as their Leader.

In other words, Craig, they don't believe your opinion of them, or indeed of Brexit, is the majority opinion. You say it yourself; they think he can WIN.
True, but they've been getting so much right elsewhere, recently, haven't they?

Well then they'll be proven wrong. It's simple. They'll be either right or wrong, regardless of what internal party choices they make now.

If wrong, then over to Labour, a party fully united in its opposition to Brexit and a million other policy agendas.... Whistle

Or over to Farage. Run for the hills!!!! Run

by SecretFly Wed 19 Jun 2019, 9:05 am

What did Boris say about Scots and Scousers?

by CaledonianCraig Wed 19 Jun 2019, 9:14 am

SecretFly wrote:What did Boris say about Scots and Scousers?

On Scots:-

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-ban-scottish-people-from-being-prime-minister-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

On Scousers:-

Here is what he has to say about Liverpool and its people: "The extreme reaction to Mr Bigley’s murder is fed by the fact that he was a Liverpudlian. Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune — its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union — and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society."

And has expressed views that Liverpool fans were to blame for Hillsborough Disaster despite what court cases have decreed.

by SecretFly Wed 19 Jun 2019, 9:31 am

Well that knocks the Scots and Scousers off his voting list.... or does it? Maybe many (or at least a few) Scots and Scousers laugh at his crude Regionalistic taunts. A Nation that fights together, stays together?

That Election - if Boris leads - will answer some questions.

by CaledonianCraig Wed 19 Jun 2019, 9:35 am

SecretFly wrote:Well that knocks the Scots and Scousers off his voting list.... or does it? Maybe many (or at least a few) Scots and Scousers laugh at his crude Regionalistic taunts. A Nation that fights together, stays together?

That Election - if Boris leads - will answer some questions.

I have no doubts a few unionist Scot Tories will vote for the party regardless but that number will be greatly diminished if many polls recently are to be believed. I'd say that may be the same with Scousers but perhaps he realises that Scotland and Merseyside is not a heartland of Toryism and never will be so he thinks 'What the hell...let's have a laugh at their expense.'

by Samo Wed 19 Jun 2019, 9:52 am

The Tories only saw a surge in votes the last Holyrood elections because they were the only party adamantly against a second Independence vote.

Amazingly, Joe Public actually care very little about most things, which is why popularism is on the rise. Say what they want to hear and you can do anything you want, they’ll still vote for you regardless. Same goes for the Brexit “business” and Corbynites and the MAGA mob.

by SecretFly Wed 19 Jun 2019, 10:04 am

Politicians appealing to popular opinion = populism/evil
Politicians telling the public they (the public) are clueless = good
Politicians appealing for votes = normality
Politicians trying to modulate & moderate public opinion = political science/normality/good
Politicians being told by voters what they demand = populism/evil
Majority decision = good/democracy at work
Majority decision = bad/populism/evil

by **Galted** Wed 19 Jun 2019, 10:44 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:Michael Gove has the first three letters of Govt in his surname. For that reason alone, I think he'd do as good a job as Arsene Wenger did at Arsenal.

Sh*t in Europe but dominant in England for a few years before losing out to wealthy Russians and Middle-Eastern oil money.

by Samo Wed 19 Jun 2019, 7:15 pm

Rory Stewart is out. Cant see past Johnson now, although stranger things have happened.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 19 Jun 2019, 9:20 pm

Stewart was never going to win, but it's a pity he's gone as he seemed to be the only one (maybe Gove as well?) who could have made it nasty for Johnson.

by SecretFly Wed 19 Jun 2019, 11:46 pm

By Gove! It looks like it might be another bad tempered, backstabbing, sniping and undermining shoot-out between Boris and Gove - only this time they'll be on opposite sides.

by SecretFly Wed 19 Jun 2019, 11:51 pm

Like I've said before, you people really are missing a wonderland of fun when it seems all political satire was killed off in the name of ... well, why? Was it because of runaway PC and political satire was deemed offensive to certain politicians?

It's a crime really, because this period in history is much richer than the era Spitting Image thrived in. A crime against humour and history. Boris and Gove are perfect.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 20 Jun 2019, 1:59 pm

Just Johnson...Hunt and Gove now...

If Johnson lends Hunt some support to get rid of Gove and offers Hunt the Exchequer..

He will be PM next week.

Smart move for sure....Be surprised if there is a contest now.

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2019, 2:28 pm

I think the Tories kinda realise that the greater British public won't tolerate another fudge that puts another 'anyone-but' Boris in the General's seat. I think even his arch enemies in ideology and alleged Brexit choice want him in there so that they can have a large Symbolic target to aim at.
Farage too is waiting for the Tories to blink on the October deadline. If Tories pick Hunt, they'll allow Farage to apply the pressure early and to accuse them of choosing again a fastidious civil servant type drone over the Churchillian British Bulldog.
Of course there is always the possibility that Boris has been bluffing all along and if chosen might allow himself to be given yet another long extension on a Leave date. Boris to change spots again and become champion of the Remainers to undercut Watson's Labour and the new smug SDs? Wouldn't surprise me at all really.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Jun 2019, 2:34 pm

SecretFly wrote:I think the Tories kinda realise that the greater British public won't tolerate another fudge that puts another 'anyone-but' Boris in the General's seat. I think even his arch enemies in ideology and alleged Brexit choice want him in there so that they can have a large Symbolic target to aim at.
Farage too is waiting for the Tories to blink on the October deadline. If Tories pick Hunt, they'll allow Farage to apply the pressure early and to accuse them of choosing again a fastidious civil servant type drone over the Churchillian British Bulldog.
Of course there is always the possibility that Boris has been bluffing all along and if chosen might allow himself to be given yet another long extension on a Leave date. Boris to change spots again and become champion of the Remainers to undercut Watson's Labour and the new smug SDs? Wouldn't surprise me at all really.

It wouldn't be a case of the prime minster accepting the offer of an extension. Any extension would have to be requested by the UK government.

I have to say, I'm quite looking forward to the prospect of Boris Johnson being more despised by Mark Francois and Bill Cash than Theresa May was.

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:04 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

It wouldn't be a case of the prime minster accepting the offer of an extension. Any extension would have to be requested by the UK government.

"Allow himself to be given", was my words.
In talks behind closed doors, we all know that the EU (negotiators if not the individual Leadership of the Nations) wants the extensions every bit as much as any Prime Minister might So I'm saying Boris could find ways of spinning it that he was giving every opportunity to having a Deal (kudos to Boris) therefore requesting time to get it done (more delays but kudos to Boris) and being thankful to the EU for 'giving' it go him. They still have to acquiesce.

by dummy_half Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:05 pm

Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

It wouldn't be a case of the prime minster accepting the offer of an extension. Any extension would have to be requested by the UK government.

"Allow himself to be given", was my words.
In talks behind closed doors, we all know that the EU (negotiators if not the individual Leadership of the Nations) wants the extensions every bit as much as any Prime Minister might So I'm saying Boris could find ways of spinning it that he was giving every opportunity to having a Deal (kudos to Boris) therefore requesting time to get it done (more delays but kudos to Boris) and being thankful to the EU for 'giving' it go him. They still have to acquiesce.

However he spins it, the ERG will be furious. It's going to be fantastic. But more fool anyone who takes Boris Johnson at his word.

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:13 pm

dummy_half wrote:Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

Perhaps..... but not for me. Think it's a cop out:- creative comic writers fearful of causing offence to any and all of the activist social/political groupings circling like sharks = bland scripts = no comedy = not viable.

A shame and yes, perhaps even a crime in reality as a society that doesn't allow its sacred cows to be satirised is to me a dangerous society.

by **Pr4wn** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

Perhaps..... but not for me. Think it's a cop out:- creative comic writers fearful of causing offence to any and all of the activist social/political groupings circling like sharks = bland scripts = no comedy = not viable.

A shame and yes, perhaps even a crime in reality as a society that doesn't allow its sacred cows to be satirised is to me a dangerous society.

I suppose it's easier when you were never funny in the first place.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

Perhaps..... but not for me. Think it's a cop out:- creative comic writers fearful of causing offence to any and all of the activist social/political groupings circling like sharks = bland scripts = no comedy = not viable.

A shame and yes, perhaps even a crime in reality as a society that doesn't allow its sacred cows to be satirised is to me a dangerous society.

The best typo I've ever seen was when someone, possibly on these boards, described something or other as a scared cow Laugh

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

Perhaps..... but not for me. Think it's a cop out:- creative comic writers fearful of causing offence to any and all of the activist social/political groupings circling like sharks = bland scripts = no comedy = not viable.

A shame and yes, perhaps even a crime in reality as a society that doesn't allow its sacred cows to be satirised is to me a dangerous society.

I take it you don't read Private Eye (or at least glance at the covers).

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:19 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

Perhaps..... but not for me. Think it's a cop out:- creative comic writers fearful of causing offence to any and all of the activist social/political groupings circling like sharks = bland scripts = no comedy = not viable.

A shame and yes, perhaps even a crime in reality as a society that doesn't allow its sacred cows to be satirised is to me a dangerous society.

The best typo I've ever seen was when someone, possibly on these boards, described something or other as a scared cow

I'm not in the mood for cow jokes.

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:21 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

However he spins it, the ERG will be furious. It's going to be fantastic. But more fool anyone who takes Boris Johnson at his word.

Which politician would you take at his word, Luckless?

It's seldom about what they say. It's really all down to us as individuals. We work on our instincts and our own objectives. If we feel one politician suits our interests at that point in time, then we'll vote for him/her. And most of us won't be shifted from our instincts or interests because other people keep telling us how 'bad' our choice is.
We're kinda worse than politicians because we're the ones that cynically use them for our own personal purposes then drop them quick if a better champion of our ideals turns up.

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:24 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

Perhaps..... but not for me. Think it's a cop out:- creative comic writers fearful of causing offence to any and all of the activist social/political groupings circling like sharks = bland scripts = no comedy = not viable.

A shame and yes, perhaps even a crime in reality as a society that doesn't allow its sacred cows to be satirised is to me a dangerous society.

I take it you don't read Private Eye (or at least glance at the covers).

....reading paper things with print on them???? Nah.... archaic nonsense for old rustic types that maybe voted for Brexit.

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:26 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

Perhaps..... but not for me. Think it's a cop out:- creative comic writers fearful of causing offence to any and all of the activist social/political groupings circling like sharks = bland scripts = no comedy = not viable.

A shame and yes, perhaps even a crime in reality as a society that doesn't allow its sacred cows to be satirised is to me a dangerous society.

I suppose it's easier when you were never funny in the first place.

Now there's a guy that might bring it all back.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
dummy_half wrote:Secretfly

I think political satire was killed off when reality got more weird than anything the humourists could come up with...

Perhaps..... but not for me. Think it's a cop out:- creative comic writers fearful of causing offence to any and all of the activist social/political groupings circling like sharks = bland scripts = no comedy = not viable.

A shame and yes, perhaps even a crime in reality as a society that doesn't allow its sacred cows to be satirised is to me a dangerous society.

I take it you don't read Private Eye (or at least glance at the covers).

....reading paper things with print on them???? Nah.... archaic nonsense for old rustic types that maybe voted for Brexit.

newsthump.com?

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:29 pm

I'll check it out, Julius.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

However he spins it, the ERG will be furious. It's going to be fantastic. But more fool anyone who takes Boris Johnson at his word.

Which politician would you take at his word, Luckless?

It's seldom about what they say. It's really all down to us as individuals. We work on our instincts and our own objectives. If we feel one politician suits our interests at that point in time, then we'll vote for him/her. And most of us won't be shifted from our instincts or interests because other people keep telling us how 'bad' our choice is.
We're kinda worse than politicians because we're the ones that cynically use them for our own personal purposes then drop them quick if a better champion of our ideals turns up.

We now have candidates promising that we'll leave come what may on 31st of October, and not meaning it any more than they meant we'd leave come what may on the 29th of March. 'No deal' is still the bluff it always was. What a waste of time this all is.

by SecretFly Thu 20 Jun 2019, 3:44 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

We now have candidates promising that we'll leave on 31st of October come what may, and not meaning it any more than they meant we'd leave come what may on the 29th of March. 'No deal' is still the bluff it always was. What a waste of time this all is.

That's how easy it is for us to agree.

Who actually means what they say? Over to Farage. Is even Farage serious about what he purportedly wants?

Voters have no choice. They have to guess which politician means most of what he/she says and vote according to instinct.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Jun 2019, 4:09 pm

There are several conviction politicians in Westminster and elsewhere. I think some of the ERG are sincere that they'd be willing for the country to take the hit of leaving without a deal, as irresponsible as that is. But the bottom line in this instance is that it was dishonest even of Raab to say that he'd lead the country out on Hallowe'e without a deal, because he knows parliament won't wear it. What's the use of vowing to do something you know you won't be permitted to do?

We're in dire need of some honesty in government. We won't get it for a while yet.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Jun 2019, 4:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

We now have candidates promising that we'll leave on 31st of October come what may, and not meaning it any more than they meant we'd leave come what may on the 29th of March. 'No deal' is still the bluff it always was. What a waste of time this all is.

That's how easy it is for us to agree.

Who actually means what they say? Over to Farage. Is even Farage serious about what he purportedly wants?

Voters have no choice. They have to guess which politician means most of what he/she says and vote according to instinct.

On Farage, I don't doubt that he wants us to leave the EU, of course he does. My issue with Farage, and a good number of Leave politicians, is that they're minimising (at best) the negative consequences of leaving without a deal. As well as being dishonest, it's also stupid, because if we do actually leave without a deal, we'll see soon enough that they weren't straight with us.

(I accept that if we leave without a deal and things aren't awful, then it's those who said it would be awful who'll be vilified, and deservedly so.)

by **Pal Joey** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 4:40 pm

Yeah, it all boils down to luck of the draw. Sometimes you win other times you lose. Whichever characters are available at any given time frame in any given place; that's what we've got.

It seems nobody is perfect these days (or their flaws are too easily exposed) but right now we have cartoon-like political caricatures of cartoon-like political caricatures in positions of power in important places. And the world can be a violent and dangerous place. The stakes are very high yet it sort of feels like there's a global black comedy (is that term now obsolete?) being acted out, or at least, a never ending soap opera filling the day... day after day.

I can see what Fly is saying about just trying to "enjoy the ride" whilst "protecting yourself" from all the chatter and nonsense. Apart from all the sensible chatter on here of course which has crystal clear qualities most of the time.

I've experienced a few recent examples of completely unexpected (according to the polls) election results. The same as Trump and Brexit. Both times the alternative choice (for my own selfish personal purposes) would have been almost unbearable if the opposition party had won.

I made a pact with family members that I wouldn't get upset if the results didn't go 'my way' and that I'd simply accept the alternative and just get on with life. Try not to think too deeply about it. Luckily; on both occasions the noose was cut from the gallows (so to speak) and I'd wake up the next day thinking: Unbelievable! That was a miracle (for me and the state / country) based on my own selfish purposes and beliefs.

Long story: but basically I felt that current progress shouldn't be interrupted by radical change and more complex policies at a time when we don't know what's around the corner. Just keeping the status quo for now would be better for the people / economy as a whole. Others obviously disagree.
It was a conservative mindset maybe... but I saw it as being more responsible (right at that time... given the set of cartoon characters) and building upon an existing foundation which although not perfect - had some fundamentally good things going for it. You can still do more in many policy areas of course.. and radical ideas can still be accommodated. This is where some folk misunderstand the situation. They believe they're now doomed or everyone else is stupid and cruel. There are many shades of grey in society and everyone needs inclusion and co-operation with others... at work or play. Regardless of who's running the country.

I see politics and the main ideologies like a big old tree with a massive trunk and branches of various sizes spreading out (progressive new ideas, technologies, etc) as you go up higher... finer branches (could be a nasty dictator on that sick looking branch), twigs and leaves (arts, entertainment) at the extremes. Some fall off... others get thicker and stronger and have a major connection back to the main trunk.

But it's all part of one tree system, right?

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Jun 2019, 4:50 pm

Any analogy involving a tree is a good one in my book

I do agree that things are horribly polarised now. We've always had opposing forces, in politics as elsewhere, but it seems so cut-throat at the moment. There's no consideration for the shades of grey you mention, for the compromise that is inevitably what's needed. Sober, rational, boring politicians are out of fashion.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 5:00 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Any analogy involving a tree is a good one in my book

PJ is a top bloak.

by **Pal Joey** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 5:06 pm

Thought I'd spruce things up if it's oak ay with you, Jules.

Just to add to the tree analogy, Lucky.

At the base we have say the ancient Celtic, Greek, Chinese civilisations, knowledge, beliefs, whatever.... which are basis of the world civilisation we find ourselves in at present. We can never deny this reality can we? You can't just chop off parts at the base of the trunk and expect the tree to remain upright and continue growing upwards in its healthiest state.

Consider the Mayans and their culture as an example.They were once a substantial branch which lasted several hundred years - a decent sized branch say halfway up the trunk. It eventually got hit by a storm and broke off... but some of the 'juice' from that scar finds its way back into the trunk and is part of Mexican civilisation today. So the main Mayan branch may be gone but significant elements of its existence continue to this day.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 5:13 pm

I just can't stand the thought of Boris at the 'elm

by **Pal Joey** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 5:25 pm

I was about to ask yew... would Hunt be a better option? I'd be interested to hear you opine on that possibility.

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 5:45 pm

He's not as poplar as Boris, but I'm stumped as to why.

by **Pal Joey** Thu 20 Jun 2019, 6:05 pm

I can't figure it out either. It's enough to make a willow weep. I'm sycamore this nonsense!

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