England v Scotland 6N Round 5 Saturday 16th March

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England v Scotland
6N Round 5
Saturday 16th March
Twickenham Stadium
London

KO 17.00

Well here we are at the final round of matches and three teams can still come out on top following Ireland's demolition of France this afternoon.

England have the advantage of playing last and will know what they have to do, if Wales have not already wrapped it up with a Grand Slam earlier in the afternoon. That actually might be Scotland's best chance of getting anything out of this game if England get distracted about what is going on else where, particularly if they find playing for second spot a distraction, knowing Wales have already wrapped things up.

On paper, this is only going to be an English win, the only question being by how much.

Scotland have had an awful championship, where just about everything that could have gone wrong. They are only playing for pride, but history tells us that sides that are done at this stage in the competition, rarely have anything left in the tank for the final game.

It is not as if Scotland have any form at Twickenham either, we have not won there since 1983 (did I ever mention that I was there!). We had had a crap season and no-one gave us much of a chance that year either if I remember, then the following year we won the GS. Can I see that happening this time though?

Only in my dreams!

So what do both sides hope to get from the game?

England clearly want a BP victory, some revenge for last year and hopefully a championship. They would also like to show the continued emergence of such players as Cockanasiga, who could be pivotal to them doing well in the WC.

Scotland, despite whatever spin they put on the game, might just be happy with a decent performance and continued development of some of our young starlets. We took another pile of injuries this weekend and getting a half decent competitive side onto the pitch is going to be a challenge in itself. Still, this exposure might be the making of young Hastings, Bradbury, Graham, McDowell, Skinner, Ritchie and anyone else who gets to play, down the line.

Test rugby is a hard old place to earn your living and they will likely be finding that out next weekend.



England


Daly, Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Cole, Shields, Hughes, Spencer, Ford, Te'o



Scotland:

Maitland; Graham, Grigg, Johnson, McGuigan; Russell, Price; Dell, McInally (capt), Nel; Toolis, Gilchrist; Skinner, Watson, Bradbury.

Replacements: Brown, Reid, Berghan, J Gray, Strauss, Laidlaw, Hastings, Harris

I had come round to thinking that Hartley had played his last game for England, George has looked so good and I have never considered Hartley a finisher. I was wrong, Farrell is just not a captain when things start to go wrong, he doesn't have the nouce to change things on the field. Taking off the one person who seemed to be trying to gee up everyone was imo another mistake. Wilson wears his heart on his sleeve, he was constantly cajoling the others to set it up.

Was it me or did Manu come off at half time, I didn't see him in the second half, ball in hand or more especially tackling, so many breaks through the 12 channel and he just wasn't there.

The other player England badly missed was Lawes, Kruis and Launchbury have their strengths, but none cover the park like Lawes, if players are breaking through the centre area, Lawes is the one lock you can guarantee will be there to smash them back, neither K or L have his mobility.

I hate to say it, but once they knew the Wales result, they just seemed like they didn't care anymore, they just couldn't generate any enthusiasm, only when they went behind dis the pride kick in and when they started to play properly they scored. That attitude is just not acceptable in an England shirt and heads need to role to make it clear that 110% in required at all times.

Well done Scotland, I thought your second half spirit deserved the win.

Once again a tread that has nothing to do with Wales is being taken over by Welsh posters only out to score points against England, pathetic really. Enjoy your GS but stay at home if that is all you can do.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Scarpia wrote:England are basically playground bullies. If they can dominate you they will destroy you but when they come up up against someone with the physical strength and/or strength of character to stand up to them they reveal their soft underbelly.

Farrell admitted after the game how shocked they were and he certainly looked it. Ever since Italy exposed England's lack of on-field wit two years ago, they seem vulnerable to getting trapped in unexpected headlights being turned on. Billy V for all his power looked slow and out of position when the onslaught came, maybe Launchbury, Kruis and George in that category too.

England didn't switch off at all, they intended to show Scotland how ruthless a team they had become after hints from both the Wales and Italy games that they were a team that eased off. What shocked Farrell was that the game plan that had been so successful in the first half didn't work more of the same magic in the second - or was he still coming to terms that he couldn't catch McInally?

Also spot on. Players like George, Kruis, Launchbury look dynamic when England are on the front foot - see Launchbury's offload v Wales last year, his dummy for the try yesterday - but slow, ponderous, and frankly overweight when England are struggling. Launchbury looked poor in the Scotland game last year as well.

I do agree they didn't 'switch off' - it was a case of switching 'on' in the wrong way. They thought the game was won and wanted to continue hammering Scotland in the same way. Absolute shambles for England and after the results in the first half of 2018, serious question marks over Eddie Jones once again. The Ireland game, and parts of the ABs performance, are cut down with games like this. It only takes one game like this in a RWC for it all to go horribly wrong.

Well done Scotland.. brilliant comeback.

For the neutral, this was the best, most exciting game yesterday.

For England, what happened...

In hindsight it was a great match not only because of the entertainment but what the coaches have hopefully learnt. Farrell not a great captain having an off day at FH ( second half ) , a need for a more pragmatic leader to play stuff up your jumper for 10 minutes to break up the Scottish momentum and the need to sub players earlier ( Young Farrell and the props )

For the Scots they were brilliant second half ,Russell having problems with the coaches FH tactics they just need to start like that with their more experienced players

Overall a fantastic advert for International rugby.

For all we were brilliant in the second half, you can’t win games of international playing like we did in that first half. Defensively we are a liability at the moment and a draw is probably a fair result at the end of the day.

England can definitely be got at and I think EJ has been sussed our. If Lancaster was still coach I don’t think we would have got back into it the way we did.

Scotlands tries came from English mistakes.

Farrell charged down kick, Nowell stepping out line, Daly missed tackle, May out of position, Farrell crap pass, Daly/Nowell poor positioning/missed tackle.

Not too difficult to see a few patterns developing there to be honest.

Daly we knew about, Nowell is no better in defence than Big Joe, and Farrell Farrell Farrell????? poor captaincy and poor in general. We would have won with Ford on the pitch sooner.

TightHEAD wrote:Scotlands tries came from English mistakes.

Farrell charged down kick, Nowell stepping out line, Daly missed tackle, May out of position, Farrell crap pass, Daly/Nowell poor positioning/missed tackle.

Not too difficult to see a few patterns developing there to be honest.

Daly we knew about, Nowell is no better in defence than Big Joe, and Farrell Farrell Farrell????? poor captaincy and poor in general. We would have won with Ford on the pitch sooner.

By the same token English tries came from Scottish mistakes.

Not sure your point. Mistakes come from pressure a d Scotland had that pressure on.

To say that Scotland tries only came from English mistakes is a little bit dismissive of a half of champagne rugby. (After the special brew of the first)

Some of the Scottish handling and support lines in that second half were brilliant. No doubt.

Has everyone's pulse and blood pressure returned to normal? I'm still in disbelief at that phenomenal phenomenal game. The second half was like the gift that kept on giving. The Russell interception so shortly after his incredible pass out wide to Maitland for Darcy to finish was just magnificent. I couldn't help but clap at England's trys in the first half, it was ruthless stuff and for all of Scotland's incredible work in the 2nd half, England just turned off completely. Absolutely bananas!

England's biggest issue is attitude.

TightHEAD wrote:Scotlands tries came from English mistakes.

Farrell charged down kick, Nowell stepping out line, Daly missed tackle, May out of position, Farrell crap pass, Daly/Nowell poor positioning/missed tackle.

Not too difficult to see a few patterns developing there to be honest.

Daly we knew about, Nowell is no better in defence than Big Joe, and Farrell Farrell Farrell????? poor captaincy and poor in general. We would have won with Ford on the pitch sooner.

When are you going to get it into your head that not everything happens because of England. Other teams have autonomy and effect the outcome of games; it smacks of the most glaring arrogance and ignorance to think everything happens because of something England did/did not do.

England were outplayed and outsmarted and beaten in 80 minutes with only 3 genuine wins in the 6 Nations v Irish, Italy and France. Thats where you are at.

Pie wrote:it smacks of the most glaring arrogance and ignorance to think everything happens because of something [YOUR TEAM] did/did not do.

You must spend all your time thinking rugby fans everywhere are ignorant, and arrogant, then, since since everyone talks about how what their own team did or didn't do affects the result.

That's why you often see or hear boilerplate comments like "All credit it to [THE OPPOSITION], and "That's to take nothing away from [THE OPPOSITION]. They are a small sop, when all you realy want to do is think about what your own team did right and wrong.

Agreed. Also when it's on your teams match thread, it's kind of the place for it.

I never got this going on to other teams threads to get upset about what that teams posters are saying about their own team.

Just seems like you're going out of your way to get offended.

yappysnap wrote:Agreed. Also when it's on your teams match thread, it's kind of the place for it.

I never got this going on to other teams threads to get upset about what that teams posters are saying about their own team.

Just seems like you're going out of your way to get offended.

Offended? For calling out arrogance? Hardly but nice try

I'm just fed up of hearing how everyone playing England doesn't beat them, rather England do something to let the opposition in. Got it now?

I agree with you. England's attitude that the game was done led them to relaxing too much and letting Scotland back in. Apparently Jones is now looking for ways to help that concentration issue.

Pie wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Agreed. Also when it's on your teams match thread, it's kind of the place for it.

I never got this going on to other teams threads to get upset about what that teams posters are saying about their own team.

Just seems like you're going out of your way to get offended.

Offended? For calling out arrogance? Hardly but nice try

I'm just fed up of hearing how everyone playing England doesn't beat them, rather England do something to let the opposition in. Got it now?

Yes seems to be your MO...though Funny, I thought everything happened because it was NZ...better get your story right.

The point about claiming what your team did wrong every time is that thats all you can control when addressing things going forward. If your winger gets beaten by ‘their’ winger the issue is your winger has defensive issues. That the opp. Winger was brilliant is irrelevant, because theres nothing you can do about what others do.

Common sense really. Think youre asking folks to give credit where its due and I dont really think thats your place to demand that.

https://www.606v2.com/t68580-scotland-6-nations-postmortem-and-wc-chat#3791876

Thought I'd pull all our chat together onto one thread and give us a home for the build up to the world cup

Well that was certainly interesting.

What a game that was. All credit to the Scots for dragging themselves back into the game, yes England may have had attitude problems as many are alluding to, but it would have been very easy for Scotland to come out for the 2nd half with their heads down after getting truly battered in the first half.

Its a testament to their team spirit and mental strength to firstly not let the first half affect them, and then really put hammer down when they recognised that England were crumbling, would have had no complaints at all with a loss.

For us, its a disappointing end, despite the fireworks of the first half. If the England team of the first halves against Ireland/Scotland had shown up in two more halves this tournament, we would have won a Grand Slam. As it is, there is room to improve and very clear and obvious faults in temperament/tactical approach at key moments to target that improvement on.

I think we have played the best rugby of any team in the tournament in patches, but patches aren't good enough. Its disappointing to end on a draw when we were confident of beating Scotland, but if it leads to success in November I can live with that

I think Scotland felt so beaten at that point, mentally and tactically - and not just from that England first half - that in truth they'd gone as low as they could go and probably became emotionally numb. With emotions gone they simply started to play the fluid stuff that has become second nature to them. There was a complete 'nothing to lose' serenity about them then
So in other words, like I think I've said on another thread, England probably shoot themselves in the foot at times by being too slick and ruthless in those first 40. When an opposition lose hope they sometimes also lose fear and lose nerves.

BamBam wrote:What a game that was. All credit to the Scots for dragging themselves back into the game, yes England may have had attitude problems as many are alluding to, but it would have been very easy for Scotland to come out for the 2nd half with their heads down after getting truly battered in the first half.

Its a testament to their team spirit and mental strength to firstly not let the first half affect them, and then really put hammer down when they recognised that England were crumbling, would have had no complaints at all with a loss.

For us, its a disappointing end, despite the fireworks of the first half. If the England team of the first halves against Ireland/Scotland had shown up in two more halves this tournament, we would have won a Grand Slam. As it is, there is room to improve and very clear and obvious faults in temperament/tactical approach at key moments to target that improvement on.

I think we have played the best rugby of any team in the tournament in patches, but patches aren't good enough. Its disappointing to end on a draw when we were confident of beating Scotland, but if it leads to success in November I can live with that

I would totally agree with that - I think the win against Ireland was probably the performance of the tournament. The switching off at key times is a strange one, these players don't necessarily do this for their club teams, and there shouldn't be any reason they do it for England.

This is a post solely in the appreciation of Finn Russell's second half - it was truly extraordinary:

1. Inside ball to Johnson for Grahams first try.
2. Huge miss pass of his wrong hand for Grahams second.
3. The read and interception for his own score.
4. The no-look pass to Johnson, when his eyes were fixed on the second line of attack.

He is turning into a very, very special player.

Potty he couldn't have done all that the week before though. I think the views of Farrell vs Russell by both setsvpf fans is interesting though. Had we had swapped those 2 players I think we'd both be stills saying similar things in so much of picking apart weaknesses and focusing on strengths.

That pass to Johnson was just sublime.

I was at work on Saturday night and was showing the highlights to one of my colleagues who is a football fan and does not really get rugby. Just talking him through it made you realise what a bit of skill and beauty it actually was.

You could almost see the smile on his face after he player hits him a micro second after the ball had left his hands. Gotcha!

Mind you Sam Johnson still had some work to do and boy did he do it!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Potty he couldn't have done all that the week before though. I think the views of Farrell vs Russell by both setsvpf fans is interesting though. Had we had swapped those 2 players I think we'd both be stills saying similar things in so much of picking apart weaknesses and focusing on strengths.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at? I like both players, who obviously play the game in different ways - in many ways if you could merge their skill sets you would probably have the perfect 10.

Regarding Russell, the overwhelming narrative is that for every moment of brilliance their is a mistake - in reality, he is a lot less error prone than is made out and is becoming more consistent since his move to Racing.

BigGee wrote:That pass to Johnson was just sublime.

I was at work on Saturday night and was showing the highlights to one of my colleagues who is a football fan and does not really get rugby. Just talking him through it made you realise what a bit of skill and beauty it actually was.

You could almost see the smile on his face after he player hits him a micro second after the ball had left his hands. Gotcha!

Mind you Sam Johnson still had some work to do and boy did he do it!

It really was - the level of skill and awareness of space required to pull that off, knowing a 20st BR is about to smash you, is really incredible.

I think he has been our best player this championship.

Ha.not sure why my auto correct tho is potty is the more likely word I was going for than pity there! My point was at the moment Farrell seems to be getting a whole load of stick whereas Russell is being built up by the media following Saturday. I like Russell a lot but it brings to mind If and trateing 2 imposters just the same.

EST wrote:

BigGee wrote:That pass to Johnson was just sublime.

I was at work on Saturday night and was showing the highlights to one of my colleagues who is a football fan and does not really get rugby. Just talking him through it made you realise what a bit of skill and beauty it actually was.

You could almost see the smile on his face after he player hits him a micro second after the ball had left his hands. Gotcha!

Mind you Sam Johnson still had some work to do and boy did he do it!

It really was - the level of skill and awareness of space required to pull that off, knowing a 20st BR is about to smash you, is really incredible.

I think he has been our best player this championship.  

Undoubtably. Also a very good argument for being the player of the tournament, though I am very comfortable with it being given to Alan Wyn Jones, who was just immense throughout, rather than being eye catching in the way Finn is. FR also need to be given great credit for his defence, he puts in some great tackles and never shirks it.

I am really hoping he has truly come of age as a player in this tournament. If there was a Lions team leaving next week, surely he would not be overlooked this time around.

BigGee wrote:

EST wrote:

BigGee wrote:That pass to Johnson was just sublime.

I was at work on Saturday night and was showing the highlights to one of my colleagues who is a football fan and does not really get rugby. Just talking him through it made you realise what a bit of skill and beauty it actually was.

You could almost see the smile on his face after he player hits him a micro second after the ball had left his hands. Gotcha!

Mind you Sam Johnson still had some work to do and boy did he do it!

It really was - the level of skill and awareness of space required to pull that off, knowing a 20st BR is about to smash you, is really incredible.

I think he has been our best player this championship.  

Undoubtably. Also a very good argument for being the player of the tournament, though I am very comfortable with it being given to Alan Wyn Jones, who was just immense throughout, rather than being eye catching in the way Finn is. FR also need to be given great credit for his defence, he puts in some great tackles and never shirks it.

I am really hoping he has truly come of age as a player in this tournament. If there was a Lions team leaving next week, surely he would not be overlooked this time around.

I think in many ways this will be seen as a pivotal season in his career - leading a star studded Racing side, becoming more consistent at international level and assuming a leadership role in the Scotland team.

As for the bold section, I would hope he would be impossible to ignore.

EST wrote:This is a post solely in the appreciation of Finn Russell's second half - it was truly extraordinary:

1. Inside ball to Johnson for Grahams first try.
2. Huge miss pass of his wrong hand for Grahams second.
3. The read and interception for his own score.
4. The no-look pass to Johnson, when his eyes were fixed on the second line of attack.

He is turning into a very, very special player.

That was genius. He's a joy to watch.

Pie wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Scotlands tries came from English mistakes.

Farrell charged down kick, Nowell stepping out line, Daly missed tackle, May out of position, Farrell crap pass, Daly/Nowell poor positioning/missed tackle.

Not too difficult to see a few patterns developing there to be honest.

Daly we knew about, Nowell is no better in defence than Big Joe, and Farrell Farrell Farrell????? poor captaincy and poor in general. We would have won with Ford on the pitch sooner.

When are you going to get it into your head that not everything happens because of England. Other teams have autonomy and effect the outcome of games; it smacks of the most glaring arrogance and ignorance to think everything happens because of something England did/did not do.
.

Isn't this what Coaches do?
They reanalyse the game and see what 'their team' did wrong. Scotland did nothing special apart from not give up. English mistakes from three players contributed to most of their tries.

Daly is not a Full back to rely on in defence.
Nowell continues to have suspect defence.
Farrell (like Sexton) is seriously out of form and contributed the most to Scotland's performance with poor decision making, poor kicking, poor passing and bad tackling.

Based on the above I'd drop all three and replace with Brown, Cokanasiga/Ashton and Ford.

You are just fishing.

Has anyone seen the "tackle" Tuilagi made on Johnson around the 28 minute mark when Scotland were close to the England line. Almost took is head off. Hopefully there will be a citing.

cakeordeath wrote:Has anyone seen the "tackle" Tuilagi made on Johnson around the 28 minute mark when Scotland were close to the England line. Almost took is head off. Hopefully there will be a citing.

Why it was legal?

go and make a cup of tea.

TightHEAD wrote:

They reanalyse the game and see what 'their team' did wrong. Scotland did nothing special apart from not give up. English mistakes from three players contributed to most of their tries.

.

I don't think that many would agree with that, some of the Scottish tries (pretty much all of them in the second half) were indeed very special and will live long in the memory of everyone that saw them.

It was not just a question of us not giving up, we tried to win the game as well and almost did!

TightHEAD wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:Has anyone seen the "tackle" Tuilagi made on Johnson around the 28 minute mark when Scotland were close to the England line. Almost took is head off. Hopefully there will be a citing.

Why it was legal?

go and make a cup of tea.

Johnson ducked to avoid being decapitated. If he had not then he would have been carried off and Tuilangi would have walked.

He was reckless and lucky, probably for both parties that he got away with it.

England almost won the 2007 RWC.

But alas they did not.

I believe had Farrell been taken off at halftime then England would have won.

And because he ducked it wasn't a red card.

TBH if you can't jump a tackle you shouldn't be allowed to duck one!

TightHEAD wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:Has anyone seen the "tackle" Tuilagi made on Johnson around the 28 minute mark when Scotland were close to the England line. Almost took is head off. Hopefully there will be a citing.

Why it was legal?

go and make a cup of tea.

I dislike tea as much as I dislike players who try to behead another player. So no thanks

Calm down, it didn't happen.

You see worse at U10 games.

Genuine question Tighthead - have you seen the incident?

TightHEAD wrote:Calm down, it didn't happen.

You see worse at U10 games.

Just a small point. I made an comment on something I had seen during the game. You however decided to attack me personally by telling me to "go make a cup of tea" so if anyone needs to calm down it is you

How come in the hundreds of strangers I’ve spoken to at rugby games all across the country there is only a handful that have been ********* yet a foray round the international section of these boards during six nations sees adults turn into chauvinistic pig-headed morons. As an aside The worst offender I’ve met was the Cornish Pirates fan who was shouting and swearing at players and fans from the touch line while his child stood around looking embarrassed.

As an extension of this I’ve had to unfollows Scottish rugby stuff on social media as it seems to attract a frankly bizarre section of society that seem to see rugby as an extension of our nation’s politics.

cakeordeath wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:Calm down, it didn't happen.

You see worse at U10 games.

Just a small point. I made an comment on something I had seen during the game. You however decided to attack me personally by telling me to "go make a cup of tea" so if anyone needs to calm down it is you

Calm down fella, since when has suggesting someone to make a cup of tea become a form of personal attack on an online forum?

Don't ever go on Twitter.

...................and I think you will find Manu hasn't been cited, and rightly so.

Not seen the incident, so can not comment

Farrell should have been a red - but seems to have a charmed life

Overall, a game of 2 halfs, where the first England played exceptionally well and Scotlands defence could not cope

The second, Scotland played exceptionally well and England's defence could not cope

Overall, I think a draw was about right, but would have to say there should be a special chuffty badge for the Scotland team to come back into a game where most of us would have dropped our heads

Great game to watch

Christ, where to start with that one? Firstly, well played Scotland. The belief to come back from that far behind was, well, beyond belief. I honestly think there is no way England (and possibly any other team in the World) could have turned that around. To say Ford's try was a relief is criminal understatement.

That said, England were sublime for periods of the first half. The back-of-the-hand delivery from Slade to May for his try was the stuff of legend - had we gone on to win. Obviously we didn't, and the focus is now, rightly, elsewhere.

Mental fortitude on display - one side had it in spades, the other were sadly lacking. As an England fan (and avowed supported of Farrell), it was galling to see him implode, and pretty much take the side with him.

Other bits - we failed to adapt once again, gave the ball away cheaply (and kept kicking it to the danger runners), and apparently forgot what "defend" and "tackle" mean. It's not the end of the World, it was a hell of a game, but EJ has work to do.

R!skysports wrote:
Farrell should have been a red - but seems to have a charmed life

People making this comment are judging him on past poor tackles.

Never a Red card or a yellow.
The Ref got it correct lets praise that and say well done to him.

https://twitter.com/jimhamilton4/status/1107637224672317441

Big Jim Hamilton is just hilarious!

TightHEAD wrote:

R!skysports wrote:
Farrell should have been a red - but seems to have a charmed life

People making this comment are judging him on past poor tackles.

Never a Red card or a yellow.
The Ref got it correct lets praise that and say well done to him.

I am not complaining and I would not have liked to have seen the game decided on a card, but we have all seen reds given for less than that under the new regulations. It was a shoulder to the head, whether he meant it or not!

Anyone got a link to a gif / video of the Farrell hit in question?

(I was on a stag do, and had drunk rather a lot by this point!)