Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

I think its a done deal -no doubt he will be sat with the owner tonight
Villa should be a big big club remember going to cup semis there but probably need an owner willing to throw in some quick money .
No messing around in football these days from any of the owners.

[McLaren]

I don't think it will destroy it, but it will change it and make it less a place I want to live or have any kind of pride in.

Maybe destroy doesn't fit the bill but all I know is that leaving the EU means the UK will diverge from almost all the political positions I value.

[Diggers]

I don't think it will destroy it, but it will change it and make it less a place I want to live or have any kind of pride in.

Maybe destroy doesn't fit the bill but all I know is that leaving the EU means the UK will diverge from almost all the political positions I value.

Yeah, that's how I feel. I reserve my nationalism for sport.

[Roller_Coaster]

What are your examples of successful referenda Digs? They only work when the vote reinforces the option the people in power wanted all along. As much as I hate agreeing with super we’d be in a very similar mess to the one we have now if Scotland had voted for independence. Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system. The downside was that the positive reinforcement Cameron got from those meant he blundered into a fatal third referendum.

If anyone thinks a second EU vote is a good idea, answer two questions: firstly what options do you put on the paper? And secondly what counts as a big enough margin to act upon? As a remainer I wouldn’t be comfortable telling Brexiters their decision was getting overturned on a 52/48 the other way.

I’m not blind enough to think that a GE will be a perfect fix, of course it might not work. But at least at this late stage parties will have to be clear on exactly what their course of action is, unlike the last GE where they got by on vague Brexit promises which different factions of MPs took to mean whatever they liked. It’d be a lot harder now to vote against a specific withdrawal plan that your own party had run an election based exactly on.

Switzerland does OK, last time I looked...

Hey Switzerland, what do you think about x?

"Neutral"

"What about y?"

"Neutral"

How do you set up your new Ping G410, you know the new first adjustable weight Ping driver, a real fairway finder. Draw or fade setting?

"Neutral"

"Who's holding money beyond the reach of their own tax authorities?"

"F**k off out of our business"

[JAS]

I don't think it will destroy it, but it will change it and make it less a place I want to live or have any kind of pride in.

Maybe destroy doesn't fit the bill but all I know is that leaving the EU means the UK will diverge from almost all the political positions I value.

I’m not sure the country will end up in that bad a state if we leave. If and it’s a big if, we do properly leave obviously there will be a wave of triumphalism from fascist racist right which won’t go down well with the majority and will need firm rebutting over a sustained period. Beyond that and beyond the short term economic hit we will rebuild.

Do you think it’s going to be bad enough for you to consider emigrating Mac?

[JAS]

What are your examples of successful referenda Digs? They only work when the vote reinforces the option the people in power wanted all along. As much as I hate agreeing with super we’d be in a very similar mess to the one we have now if Scotland had voted for independence. Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system. The downside was that the positive reinforcement Cameron got from those meant he blundered into a fatal third referendum.

If anyone thinks a second EU vote is a good idea, answer two questions: firstly what options do you put on the paper? And secondly what counts as a big enough margin to act upon? As a remainer I wouldn’t be comfortable telling Brexiters their decision was getting overturned on a 52/48 the other way.

I’m not blind enough to think that a GE will be a perfect fix, of course it might not work. But at least at this late stage parties will have to be clear on exactly what their course of action is, unlike the last GE where they got by on vague Brexit promises which different factions of MPs took to mean whatever they liked. It’d be a lot harder now to vote against a specific withdrawal plan that your own party had run an election based exactly on.

Switzerland does OK, last time I looked...

Hey Switzerland, what do you think about x?

"Neutral"

"What about y?"

"Neutral"

How do you set up your new Ping G410, you know the new first adjustable weight Ping driver, a real fairway finder. Draw or fade setting?

"Neutral"

"Who's holding money beyond the reach of their own tax authorities?"

"F**k off out of our business"

Actually, speaking of the Swiss...with hindsight we should have got them to run ours. They have loads of votations about all sorts of different subjects on a regular basis (I presume that’s what Navy was pointing out).

Incidentally, all this “we had a vote it would destroy democracy to repeat it” boll0x. I do believe the Swiss have voted at least twice this century on Shengen/free movement. Lo and behold their democracy is still intact.

[McLaren]

Do you think it’s going to be bad enough for you to consider emigrating Mac?

Not sure the attack on multiculturalism will hit Edinburgh all that hard.

[Diggers]

Do you think it’s going to be bad enough for you to consider emigrating Mac?

Not sure the attack on multiculturalism will hit Edinburgh all that hard.

Was at a comedy gig in my home town a few weeks ago, small 200 seater theatre. Very funny Malaysian warm up comic, he asked if anyone was from there. Quickly apparent not a single person of colour in the whole audience. I won't say where I live as it would be Supers idea of paradise...

[navyblueshorts]

Not sure I would even try to get them to reconsider. It's not for me to point out the obvious.

But that's just it - it's precisely for you, and people like you (including in the Commons), to persuade those 17.4m that they should re-consider. You can't simply stand there, insult them and expect them to listen.

Maybe by holding a big, peaceful march?

How is that convincing Brexiteers that they might want to re-consider the merit of leaving the EU? It's nowhere near addressing that.

[navyblueshorts]

Not that I have the status or platform to do it, but I just wouldn't count myself as a campaigner or whatever you want to call it.  Brexit will happen and destroy our nation, for that reason alone I feel justified in handing out harsh criticism to those that delivered this.

Fine. Blame the politicians (all of them) who've allowed this situation to arise. Blame the media. Etc. Don't blame the majority of 'thickos' - by definition (according to you) they would have been unable to work out truth from lie in the campaign, wouldn't they?

[navyblueshorts]

What are your examples of successful referenda Digs? They only work when the vote reinforces the option the people in power wanted all along. As much as I hate agreeing with super we’d be in a very similar mess to the one we have now if Scotland had voted for independence. Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system. The downside was that the positive reinforcement Cameron got from those meant he blundered into a fatal third referendum.

If anyone thinks a second EU vote is a good idea, answer two questions: firstly what options do you put on the paper? And secondly what counts as a big enough margin to act upon? As a remainer I wouldn’t be comfortable telling Brexiters their decision was getting overturned on a 52/48 the other way.

I’m not blind enough to think that a GE will be a perfect fix, of course it might not work. But at least at this late stage parties will have to be clear on exactly what their course of action is, unlike the last GE where they got by on vague Brexit promises which different factions of MPs took to mean whatever they liked. It’d be a lot harder now to vote against a specific withdrawal plan that your own party had run an election based exactly on.

Switzerland does OK, last time I looked...

Hey Switzerland, what do you think about x?

"Neutral"

"What about y?"

"Neutral"

How do you set up your new Ping G410, you know the new first adjustable weight Ping driver, a real fairway finder. Draw or fade setting?

"Neutral"

"Who's holding money beyond the reach of their own tax authorities?"

"F**k off out of our business"

[Diggers]

Not sure I would even try to get them to reconsider. It's not for me to point out the obvious.

But that's just it - it's precisely for you, and people like you (including in the Commons), to persuade those 17.4m that they should re-consider. You can't simply stand there, insult them and expect them to listen.

Maybe by holding a big, peaceful march?

How is that convincing Brexiteers that they might want to re-consider the merit of leaving the EU? It's nowhere near addressing that.

Because it keeps remain as a talking point, people who go on the march talk about the march, the fact that it's carried out in good spirits without extremism will be a positive for some. People who are wavering (the only people you have a chance of winning over and there are plenty) could be impressed with the numbers of both the march and the petition (by contrast their was a leavers march last weekend that attracted about 7 pensioners and a dog). I think it's pretty blinkered to think this has no effect personally. In fact the girl I mentioned yesterday even brought up the petition and march saying it had been one reason why she was definitely changing her mind. I think she's unlikely to be the only person in the country who feels that way.

[dynamark]

Mac I am definitely not dumb and our nation will not be destroyed unless Sturgeon gets her way.
Digs a few small changes but keep your chin up mate.Golf courses will still exist,as will schools and hospitals.Ridiculous gloom is not justified you and many others are looking a bit flaky scared ,whatever.Please stop expecting the state to run everyones life for them.
Its hardly the third world war.

[Diggers]

Mac I am definitely not dumb and our nation will not be destroyed unless Sturgeon gets her way.
Digs a few small changes but keep your chin up mate.Golf courses will still exist,as will schools and hospitals.Ridiculous gloom is not justified you and many others are looking a bit flaky scared ,whatever.Please stop expecting the state to run everyones life for them.
Its hardly the third world war.

I don't think the world will end, Dyna. I just don't see any benefit, I've never had a good reason given for leaving so clearly I'm hardly going to be happy at the prospect. But forgetting economics, you say you want to leave to be a little bit further away from Europe, fair enough, I feel completely the opposite. As Mac said before, Brexit is the antithesis of what I'd like our country to be.
Surely you must see No Deal is a very, very unlikely option (far more unlikely than another referendum I'd say), so the best you can end up with as a Brexiteer is May's turd of a deal that we all have to live with. I can't really see how that would make you happy or make you think the whole process has been worthwhile.

[NedB-H]

Mac I am definitely not dumb and our nation will not be destroyed unless Sturgeon gets her way.
Digs a few small changes but keep your chin up mate.Golf courses will still exist,as will schools and hospitals.Ridiculous gloom is not justified you and many others are looking a bit flaky scared ,whatever.Please stop expecting the state to run everyones life for them.
Its hardly the third world war.

“It’s hardly the Third World War” isn’t the most ringing of endorsements....

[NedB-H]

What are your examples of successful referenda Digs? They only work when the vote reinforces the option the people in power wanted all along. As much as I hate agreeing with super we’d be in a very similar mess to the one we have now if Scotland had voted for independence. Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system. The downside was that the positive reinforcement Cameron got from those meant he blundered into a fatal third referendum.

If anyone thinks a second EU vote is a good idea, answer two questions: firstly what options do you put on the paper? And secondly what counts as a big enough margin to act upon? As a remainer I wouldn’t be comfortable telling Brexiters their decision was getting overturned on a 52/48 the other way.

I’m not blind enough to think that a GE will be a perfect fix, of course it might not work. But at least at this late stage parties will have to be clear on exactly what their course of action is, unlike the last GE where they got by on vague Brexit promises which different factions of MPs took to mean whatever they liked. It’d be a lot harder now to vote against a specific withdrawal plan that your own party had run an election based exactly on.

Switzerland does OK, last time I looked...

Switzerland has done very well out of staying the hell out of the war that defined European economics in the second half of the 20th century. That’ll always help the national economy and quality of life. Not that they don’t still have their problems though, lots of referenda didn’t help with their women getting the vote when everyone else’s did. And it’s the reason your rights as a non-Swiss person are miles worse than an immigrant anywhere else in Europe, though Brexiteers are probably fans of that.

[NedB-H]

Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system.

Why do you think having a PR system would be a mess?  (and the referendum was actually for AV, but in my view a step in the right direction)

My mistake

I think it would have been a disaster on a practical level Mac because it would have been the coalition government implementing it. We’re already seeing with the Fixed Term Parliament Act how the law of unintended consequences is coming down hard on the Lib Dems’ idealistic constitutional meddling. And Brexit is showing how problematic it is implementing a policy which most of the government secretly think is rubbish, which would have been the case with the Tories in the coalition. If we’d voted for reform, we’d have had a government squabbling over the details of how to do it (like Brexit) plus a bunch of incompetents trying to set up a completely new system. Imagine Chris Grayling trying to lay out an AV ballot paper correctly.

On a personal level, I think the current system is the best because, to be blunt, I think the public need the simplest system possible to be engaged with politics. We all have enough interest to be debating politics on a golf forum, but I wouldn’t expect the average “thicko” as you call them to be arsed with getting their head around AV or STV. PR would work but you lose the constituency representative aspect which I’m a fan of, and I wouldn’t back the HoC to ever agree on anything if it was PR elected. A PR House of Lords is a better idea.

[dynamark]

Third world war was probably a wrong line but I'm trying to say it is just not that momentous.
I can go visit to any number of places outside of the EU and buy and sell to same very simply.
Laws,courts,currency (I know we have avoided that so far)regulation can all be under out control but with respect to our neighbours .
Like it or not the vote eligible public gave a decision and that has to happen in some form

[super_realist]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

You do crack me up, you set yourself up so many times to look a plum. Let's take this post, I've never had a go at the millions of millennials, right or left wingers that they may be. In fact I've defended them. In this post you call all of those people, regardless of knowing nothing about them, sniveling. Hmm, which of us is a hater? You've written off everyone who believes in a religion. You called an unborn child a brat. Hmm, which of us is a hater?
The thing is, I wouldn't expect you to understand why people enjoy a march, simply because you don't have full access to a complete range of emotions. I can understand why it would be confusing for you. A bit like spotting a good footballer, or it slowly dawning on you that your Brexit opinion is exactly the same as Corbyn's.

Of course I have a go at millennials, and when I do I'm talking about the pathetic, simpering ones who no platform people and who are the real intolerant ones in society, of course I have a go at religion, it's legalised madness, harmful to society and a completely ridiculous and indefensible thing to hold a belief in. Why would you respect or give deference to something so backward and absurd? Religion deserves no more respect than someone who believes paedophilia is ok. You can respect their right to hold any belief they like, but giving respect and special treatment for anything like that is contrary to the good of society.

You mightn't have had a go at millennials, but you have a go at anyone who doesn't follow your stance on Brexit and politics in general, which is why so many people can't stand the militant remainers. You sound like the sort of person who supported Independence in Scotland, you can't respect the vote of the other person.

It's hilarious you claim I have no access to emotions, you don't know me in the slightest. This is a forum, it's about making a point, not mollycoddling people and constantly being empathetic.

I certainly can spot a good footballer and what would make a good footballer, I've been saying for years the hapless English youth should be going abroad to play football. Look what's happening now, you seem to think that because I made a bad prediction about the bottom end of the most over-rated league in Europe that it means I know nothing about football, and because you're some sort of armchair fan that it makes you some sort of expert, now that's the funny thing.

And the rant goes on...

Corbyn is an ardent Brexiteer, so if anything we both have more in common with May than we do with that revolting Marxist trot Corbyn. He might be now toeing the party rhetoric on Brexit as enforced by the party, but make no mistake, I share virtually no common ground with that c**t, and as a remainer I don't think you do either.

[super_realist]

Of course I have a go at millennials, and when I do I'm talking about the pathetic, simpering ones who no platform people and who are the real intolerant ones in society

Are you even sure you mean millenials?  From what I can gather the term refers to those born between 1981 and 1996, but the no platforming you reference is a mostly US college campus issue.  Most millenials have long since left college.  Why does a US college problem even bother you so much? Did one of your heros like Harris or Jordan Petterson get no platformed?

of course I have a go at religion, it's legalised madness, harmful to society and a completely ridiculous and indefensible thing to hold a belief in. Why would you respect or give deference to something so backward and absurd? Religion deserves no more respect than someone who believes paedophilia is ok.

Believing religious claims deserves no respect, and neither do any other poorly evidenced claims such as austerity to alleviate recession, intelligent design, flat earth etc but to say any of these are on the same level as pedophilia is absurd.  Yes they all deserve no respect but pedophilia deserves active repulsion. (Although I would say anti vaxxers are as bad as pedophilia) Such absurd comparisons do nothing to show those afflicted by religion the light.

I certainly can spot a good footballer and what would make a good footballe

Why are you so keen to be thought of as someone who knows about football? You don't watch it, follow it, like it or take any interest in it.  It is clear from you posting on the subject you have no knowledge of the pro game and  have probably never played to any great level.

But that is fine, you are allowed to be naive about something for which you make no effort to learn about.

Firstly Peterson is a complete pr1ck Mac, I share no beliefs with him.

When I refer to millennials, I refer to those who laughably claim that life is hard for them these days. I'm not sure if that includes your age group, you must be about 30 right now, so I doubt it even though you whine like one.

As for whether I know about football or not, I don't care if I do or not, but it's laughable that people who are nothing more than armchair fans think they have some sort of in depth knowledge of the game. You talk of being a Man United fan, but have admitted in the past you've never even been to Old Trafford. So what do you know about it?
I played for the First X1 at University and played for a local team too, I sincerely doubt that any of us here have ever played at any serious level.

I'm a decent golfer, does that mean I know anything about the golf swing? So why pretend that playing football gives you some sort of indepth knowledge of the game? Plenty managers and coaches didn't play, do you know better than them?

I was comparing religion to paedophilia in regards to them both being bad ideas and when acted upon, but something you can't stop people from holding as beliefs, they are both bad for society. Can you name anything good done by religion that couldn't be done without it?
How about how religion has negatively interfered with gender equality, abortion, gay rights/marriage, education, progress of science etc? Are you really saying that religion isn't repulsive? Not as repulsive as paedophilia as an act, but it's certainly a bad thing for societal health and certainly has had a huge negative impact on society around the world. So in some ways they two are certainly comparable.

I didn't say they were as bad as each other, but considering your terrible grasp of comprehension I wasn't surprised you jumped on that like a 13 year old in a debating contest.

[super_realist]

Do you think it’s going to be bad enough for you to consider emigrating Mac?

Not sure the attack on multiculturalism will hit Edinburgh all that hard.

Was at a comedy gig in my home town a few weeks ago, small 200 seater theatre. Very funny Malaysian warm up comic, he asked if anyone was from there. Quickly apparent not a single person of colour in the whole audience. I won't say where I live as it would be Supers idea of paradise...

 More nonsense from you, and you have the nerve to think I talk rubbish. Why would any migrant move to whatever north east hell-hole you come from? I'm not surprised it's a white's only dump. Things are never so bad that a migrant would want to live there.

I'd rather live in Somalia than South Shields, Stockton or Seaburn, so not surprising they aren't there in numbers is it, and why would you expect a migrant to even attend a parochial local comedy night?

[Diggers]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

You do crack me up, you set yourself up so many times to look a plum. Let's take this post, I've never had a go at the millions of millennials, right or left wingers that they may be. In fact I've defended them. In this post you call all of those people, regardless of knowing nothing about them, sniveling. Hmm, which of us is a hater? You've written off everyone who believes in a religion. You called an unborn child a brat. Hmm, which of us is a hater?
The thing is, I wouldn't expect you to understand why people enjoy a march, simply because you don't have full access to a complete range of emotions. I can understand why it would be confusing for you. A bit like spotting a good footballer, or it slowly dawning on you that your Brexit opinion is exactly the same as Corbyn's.

Of course I have a go at millennials, and when I do I'm talking about the pathetic, simpering ones who no platform people and who are the real intolerant ones in society, of course I have a go at religion, it's legalised madness, harmful to society and a completely ridiculous and indefensible thing to hold a belief in. Why would you respect or give deference to something so backward and absurd? Religion deserves no more respect than someone who believes paedophilia is ok. You can respect their right to hold any belief they like, but giving respect and special treatment for anything like that is contrary to the good of society.

You mightn't have had a go at millennials, but you have a go at anyone who doesn't follow your stance on Brexit and politics in general, which is why so many people can't stand the militant remainers. You sound like the sort of person who supported Independence in Scotland, you can't respect the vote of the other person.

It's hilarious you claim I have no access to emotions, you don't know me in the slightest. This is a forum, it's about making a point, not mollycoddling people and constantly being empathetic.

I certainly can spot a good footballer and what would make a good footballer, I've been saying for years the hapless English youth should be going abroad to play football. Look what's happening now, you seem to think that because I made a bad prediction about the bottom end of the most over-rated league in Europe that it means I know nothing about football, and because you're some sort of armchair fan that it makes you some sort of expert, now that's the funny thing.

And the rant goes on...

Corbyn is an ardent Brexiteer, so if anything we both have more in common with May than we do with that revolting Marxist trot Corbyn. He might be now toeing the party rhetoric on Brexit as enforced by the party, but make no mistake, I share virtually no common ground with that c**t, and as a remainer I don't think you do either.

Whatever makes you feel better JC junior.

[Diggers]

Do you think it’s going to be bad enough for you to consider emigrating Mac?

Not sure the attack on multiculturalism will hit Edinburgh all that hard.

Was at a comedy gig in my home town a few weeks ago, small 200 seater theatre. Very funny Malaysian warm up comic, he asked if anyone was from there. Quickly apparent not a single person of colour in the whole audience. I won't say where I live as it would be Supers idea of paradise...

 More nonsense from you, and you have the nerve to think I talk rubbish. Why would any migrant move to whatever north east hell-hole you come from? I'm not surprised it's a white's only dump. Things are never so bad that a migrant would want to live there.

I'd rather live in Somalia than South Shields, Stockton or Seaburn, so not surprising they aren't there in numbers is it, and why would you expect a migrant to even attend a parochial local comedy night?

I live on the South East Coast of England. Nice to see your hatred for north eastern towns added to the lengthy list.

[Diggers]

Of course I have a go at millennials, and when I do I'm talking about the pathetic, simpering ones who no platform people and who are the real intolerant ones in society

Are you even sure you mean millenials?  From what I can gather the term refers to those born between 1981 and 1996, but the no platforming you reference is a mostly US college campus issue.  Most millenials have long since left college.  Why does a US college problem even bother you so much? Did one of your heros like Harris or Jordan Petterson get no platformed?

of course I have a go at religion, it's legalised madness, harmful to society and a completely ridiculous and indefensible thing to hold a belief in. Why would you respect or give deference to something so backward and absurd? Religion deserves no more respect than someone who believes paedophilia is ok.

Believing religious claims deserves no respect, and neither do any other poorly evidenced claims such as austerity to alleviate recession, intelligent design, flat earth etc but to say any of these are on the same level as pedophilia is absurd.  Yes they all deserve no respect but pedophilia deserves active repulsion. (Although I would say anti vaxxers are as bad as pedophilia) Such absurd comparisons do nothing to show those afflicted by religion the light.

I certainly can spot a good footballer and what would make a good footballe

Why are you so keen to be thought of as someone who knows about football? You don't watch it, follow it, like it or take any interest in it.  It is clear from you posting on the subject you have no knowledge of the pro game and  have probably never played to any great level.

But that is fine, you are allowed to be naive about something for which you make no effort to learn about.

Firstly Peterson is a complete pr1ck Mac, I share no beliefs with him.

When I refer to millennials, I refer to those who laughably claim that life is hard for them these days.  I'm not sure if that includes your age group, you must be about 30 right now, so I doubt it even though you whine like one.

As for whether I know about football or not, I don't care if I do or not, but it's laughable that people who are nothing more than armchair fans think they have some sort of in depth knowledge of the game. You talk of being a Man United fan, but have admitted in the past you've never even been to Old Trafford. So what do you know about it?
I played for the First X1 at University and played for a local team too, I sincerely doubt that any of us here have ever played at any serious level.

I'm a decent golfer, does that mean I know anything about the golf swing? So why pretend that playing football gives you some sort of indepth knowledge of the game? Plenty managers and coaches didn't play, do you know better than them?

I was comparing religion to paedophilia in regards to them both being bad ideas and when acted upon, but something you can't stop people from holding as beliefs, they are both bad for society. Can you name anything good done by religion that couldn't be done without it?
How about how religion has negatively interfered with gender equality, abortion, gay rights/marriage, education, progress of science etc? Are you really saying that religion isn't repulsive? Not as repulsive as paedophilia as an act, but it's certainly a bad thing for societal health and certainly has had a huge negative impact on society around the world. So in some ways they two are certainly comparable.

I didn't say they were as bad as each other, but considering your terrible grasp of comprehension I wasn't surprised you jumped on that like a 13 year old in a debating contest.

There is having a decent working knowledge and there is having no knowledge. You said a few week ago you could compare Zola with Aguero in terms of goal scoring records. That shows firstly no understanding of the history of the game and also a lack of any tactical nous. You think Sterling is a winger and that blinds you to how he actually plays the game, what the modern game is. You would never get that sort of comment from Mac or Davie or Ben or Kwini or Dyna or anyone who knows a bit about the game. You constantly argue that your arguments hold as much validity as anybody else, well that's just nonsense and it's a nonsense for anybody to say about any subject. There are levels of knowledge and yours on football is around that of an 8 year olds...who doesn't really like football.

[Diggers]

Third world war was probably  a wrong line but I'm trying to say it is just not that momentous.
I can go visit  to any number of places outside of the EU and buy and sell to same very simply.
Laws,courts,currency (I know we have avoided that so far)regulation can all be under out control but with respect to our neighbours .
Like it or not the vote eligible public gave a decision and that has to happen in some form

Do you think May's deal should get passed? Well, not a deal anymore not that it ever was, but her proposal. Do you think that would improve everybody's lives from where we were 3 years ago?

[navyblueshorts]

Not sure I would even try to get them to reconsider. It's not for me to point out the obvious.

But that's just it - it's precisely for you, and people like you (including in the Commons), to persuade those 17.4m that they should re-consider. You can't simply stand there, insult them and expect them to listen.

Maybe by holding a big, peaceful march?

How is that convincing Brexiteers that they might want to re-consider the merit of leaving the EU? It's nowhere near addressing that.

Because it keeps remain as a talking point, people who go on the march talk about the march, the fact that it's carried out in good spirits without extremism will be a positive for some. People who are wavering (the only people you have a chance of winning over and there are plenty) could be impressed with the numbers of both the march and the petition (by contrast their was a leavers march last weekend that attracted about 7 pensioners and a dog). I think it's pretty blinkered to think this has no effect personally. In fact the girl I mentioned yesterday even brought up the petition and march saying it had been one reason why she was definitely changing her mind. I think she's unlikely to be the only person in the country who feels that way.

I'm not sure you get my point. Marching is fine (well done), but it isn't any dialogue with Brexiteers and doesn't in any way explain to them why they should re-consider. In fact, all it looks like to many of them is a bunch of sore losers trying to overturn the result of the referendum because they don't accept the outcome. As to the Leaver march, so what? They're the one's who 'won' the referendum - they expect their opinion to be enacted.

[navyblueshorts]

What are your examples of successful referenda Digs? They only work when the vote reinforces the option the people in power wanted all along. As much as I hate agreeing with super we’d be in a very similar mess to the one we have now if Scotland had voted for independence. Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system. The downside was that the positive reinforcement Cameron got from those meant he blundered into a fatal third referendum.

If anyone thinks a second EU vote is a good idea, answer two questions: firstly what options do you put on the paper? And secondly what counts as a big enough margin to act upon? As a remainer I wouldn’t be comfortable telling Brexiters their decision was getting overturned on a 52/48 the other way.

I’m not blind enough to think that a GE will be a perfect fix, of course it might not work. But at least at this late stage parties will have to be clear on exactly what their course of action is, unlike the last GE where they got by on vague Brexit promises which different factions of MPs took to mean whatever they liked. It’d be a lot harder now to vote against a specific withdrawal plan that your own party had run an election based exactly on.

Switzerland does OK, last time I looked...

Switzerland has done very well out of staying the hell out of the war that defined European economics in the second half of the 20th century. That’ll always help the national economy and quality of life. Not that they don’t still have their problems though, lots of referenda didn’t help with their women getting the vote when everyone else’s did. And it’s the reason your rights as a non-Swiss person are miles worse than an immigrant anywhere else in Europe, though Brexiteers are probably fans of that.

Agree, esp. about WWII! However, the rest of your argument doesn't prove referenda in Switzerland 'don't work'. Sorry.

[Diggers]

Not sure I would even try to get them to reconsider. It's not for me to point out the obvious.

But that's just it - it's precisely for you, and people like you (including in the Commons), to persuade those 17.4m that they should re-consider. You can't simply stand there, insult them and expect them to listen.

Maybe by holding a big, peaceful march?

How is that convincing Brexiteers that they might want to re-consider the merit of leaving the EU? It's nowhere near addressing that.

Because it keeps remain as a talking point, people who go on the march talk about the march, the fact that it's carried out in good spirits without extremism will be a positive for some. People who are wavering (the only people you have a chance of winning over and there are plenty) could be impressed with the numbers of both the march and the petition (by contrast their was a leavers march last weekend that attracted about 7 pensioners and a dog). I think it's pretty blinkered to think this has no effect personally. In fact the girl I mentioned yesterday even brought up the petition and march saying it had been one reason why she was definitely changing her mind. I think she's unlikely to be the only person in the country who feels that way.

I'm not sure you get my point. Marching is fine (well done), but it isn't any dialogue with Brexiteers and doesn't in any way explain to them why they should re-consider. In fact, all it looks like to many of them is a bunch of sore losers trying to overturn the result of the referendum because they don't accept the outcome. As to the Leaver march, so what? They're the one's who 'won' the referendum - they expect their opinion to be enacted.

I think you missed my point about the conversations after, which would be dialogue. Well, the leavers may expect that, but it clearly isn't guaranteed, so they are in exactly the same boat as remainers. In fact, the outcome they want is probably the least plausible of all options on the table.

[dynamark]

Digs I haven't read Mays proposal in anywhere enough detail to agree or disagree.But what I do know is we should be leaving today and sadly the house did not wish to carry that through by agreement so it should be out no deal/wto and then for sure things would start to happen very quickly.
Peoples lives improving-I cant see why not but again it is up to the individual to make their own way not relying on the state or external factors to be the provider.Theres no way transport/NHS/food supplies will fail.

[navyblueshorts]

Not sure I would even try to get them to reconsider. It's not for me to point out the obvious.

But that's just it - it's precisely for you, and people like you (including in the Commons), to persuade those 17.4m that they should re-consider. You can't simply stand there, insult them and expect them to listen.

Maybe by holding a big, peaceful march?

How is that convincing Brexiteers that they might want to re-consider the merit of leaving the EU? It's nowhere near addressing that.

Because it keeps remain as a talking point, people who go on the march talk about the march, the fact that it's carried out in good spirits without extremism will be a positive for some. People who are wavering (the only people you have a chance of winning over and there are plenty) could be impressed with the numbers of both the march and the petition (by contrast their was a leavers march last weekend that attracted about 7 pensioners and a dog). I think it's pretty blinkered to think this has no effect personally. In fact the girl I mentioned yesterday even brought up the petition and march saying it had been one reason why she was definitely changing her mind. I think she's unlikely to be the only person in the country who feels that way.

I'm not sure you get my point. Marching is fine (well done), but it isn't any dialogue with Brexiteers and doesn't in any way explain to them why they should re-consider. In fact, all it looks like to many of them is a bunch of sore losers trying to overturn the result of the referendum because they don't accept the outcome. As to the Leaver march, so what? They're the one's who 'won' the referendum - they expect their opinion to be enacted.

I think you missed my point about the conversations after, which would be dialogue. Well, the leavers may expect that, but it clearly isn't guaranteed, so they are in exactly the same boat as remainers. In fact, the outcome they want is probably the least plausible of all options on the table.

I get that, but the only way you're overturning the Ref2016 outcome is to alter the feelings of those people now. You don't get to overturn a democratic outcome like this because you don't like it, first, I'm afraid. Doesn't really matter anyway - too late for any of that. If the vote tonight is lost, it's out with no deal on April 12th or ask (and hope for) a significant extension from the EU27, with all that entails.

[McLaren]

Digs I haven't read Mays proposal in anywhere enough detail to agree or disagree.But what I do know is we should be leaving today and sadly the house did not wish to carry that through by agreement so it should be out no deal/wto and then for sure things would start to happen very quickly.
Peoples lives improving-I cant see why not but again it is up to the individual to make their own way not relying on the state or external factors to be the provider.Theres no way transport/NHS/food supplies will fail.

Dyna you pleaded in an earlier post than this that you were not dumb, yet your argument for taking the risk of massively altering the well being of a whole nation is "I haven't bothered to look into it and have faith that things will be ok".

Has any post ever summed up the rationale of leavers more accurately?

[pedro]

Pedophilia is not a choice nor stupidity, it’s a disease. Some just manage to surpress it, others don’t.

Do you manage to "suppress" it?

Luckily I don't have the inclination. But you can't deny that it must be linked to a persons sexual drive. That's also what they say themselves. Do you think pedos just do it for fun, or beacuse they deliberately want to hurt children? I think it's a bit old school to assume pedos are just premeditated predators. Not that I want to defend it, but I think it's necessary to understand the issue rather than just shame it.
Not so long ago various other sexual "preferences" were also seen as deliberate choices, when of course it's not. Obviously pedophilia is not in the same boat and a very dangerous and repulsive preference, but I think we need to dig one layer deeper to fully understand it and protect society against it.
PS: I'm not a Michael Jackson fan.

[McLaren]

Super

I have never said I haven't been to Old Trafford.  But I am glad to hear you think a visit there is necessary to understand what football is actually about.

Could you maybe address why you are still not willing to accept you might once have but no longer seem to know much about football.  And again I remind you that given your time spent on the game why would you know anything about it.


How have you managed to construe that May is a remainer? I get that she "backed" remain but we have no idea how she actually voted and wouldn't you say her actions now speak larger than a vote 3 years ago?  (Also be the logic of using what you voted for in 2016 JC is a remainer)

[navyblueshorts]

Pedophilia is not a choice nor stupidity, it’s a disease. Some just manage to surpress it, others don’t.

Do you manage to "suppress" it?

Luckily I don't have the inclination. But you can't deny that it must be linked to a persons sexual drive. That's also what they say themselves. Do you think pedos just do it for fun, or beacuse they deliberately want to hurt children? I think it's a bit old school to assume pedos are just premeditated predators. Not that I want to defend it, but I think it's necessary to understand the issue rather than just shame it.
Not so long ago various other sexual "preferences" were also seen as deliberate choices, when of course it's not. Obviously pedophilia is not in the same boat and a very dangerous and repulsive preference, but I think we need to dig one layer deeper to fully understand it and protect society against it.
PS: I'm not a Michael Jackson fan.

Brave post. I'd agree.

[McLaren]

Do you think pedos just do it for fun, or because they deliberately want to hurt children?

Both, depends on the pedophile. This is where I might abandon my leftie roots but why should society go to great lengths to "rehabilitate" someone who didn't pick up the basic principle that you shouldn't touch kids in the first place?  I don't know, but it seems like a waste of peoples time and money if such a simple idea didn't sink in already.

You fancy women, do you uncontrollably molest them, due to sexual desire, regardless of the consent given? No.  So why give some people a pass based on uncontrollable sexual desire. There is no such thing as uncontrollable sexual desire and proposing there is opens up a dangerous precedent for excusing many forms of sexual harassment, not just pedophilia. And remember most offences are by fathers or close relatives who may well be getting a kick out of the misery caused as well as the basic sexual satisfaction. If most of this is unreported and not acted on by authorities how would mollycoddling the few sados unlucky enough to get caught help prevent the vast majority of offences?

Even doing "research" and just looking at pictures is creating a demand for the stuff.  

Also don't flirt with comparing pedophilia to being gay or other perfectly moral forms of sexual preference.

[Diggers]

Digs I haven't read Mays proposal in anywhere enough detail to agree or disagree.But what I do know is we should be leaving today and sadly the house did not wish to carry that through by agreement so it should be out no deal/wto and then for sure things would start to happen very quickly.
Peoples lives improving-I cant see why not but again it is up to the individual to make their own way not relying on the state or external factors to be the provider. Theres no way transport/NHS/food supplies will fail.

I don't see why failing to agree an exit means we crash out. Setting today as a date was an utterly arbitrary decision by Parliament, as easily changes as it was made. If you were have way through a project and had the opportunity to extend the deadline, would you not just do that. It's just common sense surely.

[navyblueshorts]

Do you think pedos just do it for fun, or because they deliberately want to hurt children?

Both, depends on the pedophile. This is where I might abandon my leftie roots but why should society go to great lengths to "rehabilitate" someone who didn't pick up the basic principle that you shouldn't touch kids in the first place?  I don't know, but it seems like a waste of peoples time and money if such a simple idea didn't sink in already.

You fancy women, do you uncontrollably molest them, due to sexual desire, regardless of the consent given? No.  So why give some people a pass based on uncontrollable sexual desire. There is no such thing as uncontrollable sexual desire and proposing there is opens up a dangerous precedent for excusing many forms of sexual harassment, not just pedophilia. And remember most offences are by fathers or close relatives who may well be getting a kick out of the misery caused as well as the basic sexual satisfaction. If most of this is unreported and not acted on by authorities how would mollycoddling the few sados unlucky enough to get caught help prevent the vast majority of offences?

Even doing "research" and just looking at pictures is creating a demand for the stuff.  

Also don't flirt with comparing pedophilia to being gay or other perfectly moral forms of sexual preference.

Really good points re. desire and action; should have thought of that. Shame about the last sentence though.

[dynamark]

Mac Hi You have put quotation marks around something that I did not say which is out of order.Its only a forum
Very few of us have the full picture but I am certain I am not suggesting the whole well being of the nation is at stake I'm 100% sure it is not.This is not Italy or Greece.There is an underlying current with some folk that the government/state/welfare system is responsible for everything and this is fundamentally wrong.As an individual most have the same opportunities and chance in life and need to grasp it.I respect there are a few who need help and we should give it where we can.Politics ,govt policy has made vey little impact on most of our lives .
We can get up go to work cup of tea get education have dinner visit a hospital maybe get a game of golf (although I had to bail out today with a bad back)pub football match home again and what happens in HOP doesn't make an iota of difference.

[Diggers]

Pedophilia is not a choice nor stupidity, it’s a disease. Some just manage to surpress it, others don’t.

Do you manage to "suppress" it?

Luckily I don't have the inclination. But you can't deny that it must be linked to a persons sexual drive. That's also what they say themselves. Do you think pedos just do it for fun, or beacuse they deliberately want to hurt children? I think it's a bit old school to assume pedos are just premeditated predators. Not that I want to defend it, but I think it's necessary to understand the issue rather than just shame it.
Not so long ago various other sexual "preferences" were also seen as deliberate choices, when of course it's not. Obviously pedophilia is not in the same boat and a very dangerous and repulsive preference, but I think we need to dig one layer deeper to fully understand it and protect society against it.
PS: I'm not a Michael Jackson fan.

Brave post. I'd agree.

Ironically enough, the one Jackson song I really like is Human Nature.

[Diggers]

Mac Hi You have put quotation marks around something that I did not say which is  out of order.Its only a forum
Very few of us have the full picture but I am certain I am not suggesting the whole well being of the nation is at stake I'm 100% sure it is not.This is not Italy or Greece.There is an underlying current with some folk that the government/state/welfare system is responsible for everything and this is fundamentally wrong.As an individual most have the same opportunities and chance in life and need to grasp it.I respect there are a few who need help and we should give it where we can.Politics ,govt policy has made vey little impact on most of our lives .
We can get up go to work cup of tea get education have dinner visit a hospital maybe get a game of golf (although I had to bail out today with a bad back)pub football match home again and what happens in HOP doesn't make an iota of difference.

It's your opinion it's fundamentally wrong (and has very little impact). You did, to be fair, think that pretty much every type of welfare should be scrapped, I would argue that is fundamentally incorrect. I also really see why you think govt influence being lessened has anything to do with leaving the EU?
What is certain is we don't know how a hard Brexit would pan out, whatever your assurances, you don't have a clue, nobody does. We do have a much better idea if we remain. We do know we don't have to join a European Army, that is a simple fact.
It just comes down to what you believe, any Brexiteer taking May's deal is, as far as I can see, cutting of their nose to spite all of our faces. It is, undisputedly, a worse place to be, or "deal", than we have currently.

[McLaren]

Mac Hi You have put quotation marks around something that I did not say which is  out of order

I was clearly paraphrasing, and your actual quote was just above.

Also are you confirming that you think being outside the EU will allow the UK government to put in place welfare policies it was not able to inside the EU?

[McLaren]

Navy

I just didn't like the idea that being a pedophile was being talked about as a sexual preference like being homosexual, which was at one point not accepted. There is no rational argument for objecting to homosexuality but there is against pedophilia.

One point of agreement I had with pedro's post is that a better understanding of how to prevent it is needed.

[pedro]

Do you think pedos just do it for fun, or because they deliberately want to hurt children?

Both, depends on the pedophile. This is where I might abandon my leftie roots but why should society go to great lengths to "rehabilitate" someone who didn't pick up the basic principle that you shouldn't touch kids in the first place?  I don't know, but it seems like a waste of peoples time and money if such a simple idea didn't sink in already.

You fancy women, do you uncontrollably molest them, due to sexual desire, regardless of the consent given? No.  So why give some people a pass based on uncontrollable sexual desire. There is no such thing as uncontrollable sexual desire and proposing there is opens up a dangerous precedent for excusing many forms of sexual harassment, not just pedophilia. And remember most offences are by fathers or close relatives who may well be getting a kick out of the misery caused as well as the basic sexual satisfaction. If most of this is unreported and not acted on by authorities how would mollycoddling the few sados unlucky enough to get caught help prevent the vast majority of offences?

Even doing "research" and just looking at pictures is creating a demand for the stuff.  

Also don't flirt with comparing pedophilia to being gay or other perfectly moral forms of sexual preference.

Agree with most you say mac, especially the father/relative thing which is probably the majority. (Although you could also make the same analogy for most r@pes). My point is just that I don't think things are as black and white as some put it, (and this is not a Michel Jackson reference...) especially when it, in many of these cases, is rooted in fysiology. Simple criminals can't distinguish between desire and action as well, yet we rehabilite them all the time. But with pedos you just want to hide them away after thay've done their time because they're morally inferior? Just hope they don't move in on my street.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

I just didn't like the idea that being a pedophile was being talked about as a sexual preference like being homosexual, which was at one point not accepted.  There is no rational argument for objecting to homosexuality but there is against pedophilia.

One point of agreement I had with pedro's post is that a better understanding of how to prevent it is needed.

[dynamark]

Mac I'm certainly not expecting or wanting any more welfare spending -Busy here innit ?
Much rather see a reduction overall mainly through employment.We all know people who genuinely need help and people who are no doubt taking the mick.
Digs I'm not afraid of your unknown I'm confident( we should all be) in our businesses and people to deal with it and come out on top.Its not going to make a massive difference either way.Im not confident in our elected representatives however who have failed to carry out our mandate.

[McLaren]

But why are you connecting welfare spending and whether or not we are a member of the EU?

[Diggers]

Mac I'm certainly not expecting or wanting any more welfare spending -Busy here innit ?
Much rather see a reduction overall mainly through employment.We all know people who genuinely need help and people who are no doubt taking the mick.
Digs I'm not afraid of your unknown I'm confident( we should all be) in our businesses and people to deal with it and come out on top.Its not going to make a massive difference either way.Im not confident in our elected representatives however who have failed to carry out our mandate.

Dyna, business doesn’t negotiate international trade deals or control tariffs.

[Diggers]

Nice to see that lovely chap and all round good egg, Tommy Robinson, out protesting with his UKIP chums.

[dynamark]

Mac I'm not expecting any more welfare to be put in place Id like it to be carefully reviewed and reduced if possible.I have a neighbour who has been pulling around £1500 a month from the welfare system for at least 10 years and he is reasonably fit lives well in a first floor flat and runs a merc.I used to spend my work time in social housing where we were allocating houses on a points based system which was badly flawed.Im guilty as well but people don't wish to speak.
If we walk as we should next month things will soon get sorted out because they will have to be.the sky will not fall in business and govt will deal with it.Just to add Jon Snow on C4 has just live said 'its been an extraordinary day ive never seen so many white people in one place'thats his career over then.What a desperate thing to say but C4 is a little that way trying to be cutting edge

[Diggers]

Dyna, vote Corbyn. He and his party actually give a toss about people and the country will prosper with a more social democrat policy.
Don’t believe me? That’s exactly how I feel about your no deal predictions.
Been watching the news all night, regarding the protest, haven’t seen any non whites. Having to watch Farage now, if he’s your answer I’m very afraid of the question.

[McLaren]

Dyna

I get that you want to reduce the welfare state, but you keep bringing this up in debates about brexit and I am just wondering what you think the two have to do with each other?

[Sponsored content]