Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

I think its a done deal -no doubt he will be sat with the owner tonight
Villa should be a big big club remember going to cup semis there but probably need an owner willing to throw in some quick money .
No messing around in football these days from any of the owners.

[Diggers]

I don't really see the point in marching.

Ok, so if you wanted to see political change happen what strategies would you use or recommend others to use in order to go about making that change happen?

Vote in a chuffing election/referendum?

If only that referendum had laid out  clear choices where there could be no disagreement. Leave with no deal = tear up the Good Friday Agreement. Was that on the ballot?

No, but it was a pretty clear binary choice wasn't it?

Isn't that the confusion. If it was so clearly binary, why are we where we are at? Even leave voters can't agree what sort of leave they want, it's not like they all want a no deal exit.

Not my problem. Maybe it was just me, but it seemed pretty obvious at the time. In/out; details (obviously ) to be sorted out after result known. Clearly, there were loads of options possible on that basis. If people didn't know what that meant, or could include, surely the safe vote was to remain wasn't it? Better on the inside p!ssing out.
Too many are assuming people voted out because they're thick/didn't know what they were voting for - perhaps they knew damned well? Scary eh?

I still don't understand your point, or rather, what your fair solution is to make it all "OK". As far as I can see you're just moaning at everyone's opinion.

My point, insofar as this post makes one, is that the result was 'out'. My solution? Honour the referendum result? Nothing, now, is going to make it all 'OK'.

So you think we should leave without a deal?

[kwinigolfer]

Must be mac and super flying this plane
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47691478

Actually a pretty good metaphor for Brexit . . . . . . Possibly with Cameron at the controls.

[navyblueshorts]

I don't really see the point in marching.

Ok, so if you wanted to see political change happen what strategies would you use or recommend others to use in order to go about making that change happen?

Vote in a chuffing election/referendum?

If only that referendum had laid out  clear choices where there could be no disagreement. Leave with no deal = tear up the Good Friday Agreement. Was that on the ballot?

No, but it was a pretty clear binary choice wasn't it?

Isn't that the confusion. If it was so clearly binary, why are we where we are at? Even leave voters can't agree what sort of leave they want, it's not like they all want a no deal exit.

Not my problem. Maybe it was just me, but it seemed pretty obvious at the time. In/out; details (obviously ) to be sorted out after result known. Clearly, there were loads of options possible on that basis. If people didn't know what that meant, or could include, surely the safe vote was to remain wasn't it? Better on the inside p!ssing out.
Too many are assuming people voted out because they're thick/didn't know what they were voting for - perhaps they knew damned well? Scary eh?

I still don't understand your point, or rather, what your fair solution is to make it all "OK". As far as I can see you're just moaning at everyone's opinion.

My point, insofar as this post makes one, is that the result was 'out'. My solution? Honour the referendum result? Nothing, now, is going to make it all 'OK'.

So you think we should leave without a deal?

Hah. Nice try. I said I think the referendum result needs to be respected. Parliament could accept May's deal and the DUP go hang. Parliament could cancel A50. Parliament could allow no deal to happen. Parliament could allow for an A50 extension ad infinitum. Parliament could approve a second referendum. Parliament could call a GE. Parliament could give us a referendum on May's deal, but presumably the alternative would be 'remain'. Sure there are other options too. There are consequences for all of them though and I think many people banging on about new referenda or GEs need to be honest and recognise that, which they aren't.

Personally, I don't think a no deal scenario can be anything but bad. Certainly, in the short to medium term.

There are no nice solutions now. One lot are almost certainly going to be royally f***ed off come the end. Only silver lining I can see is a complete re-think of our political system and the traditional parties etc.

[navyblueshorts]

Must be mac and super flying this plane
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47691478

Actually a pretty good metaphor for Brexit . . . . . . Possibly with Cameron at the controls.

Methinks the pilot might be up for a bit of 'training'.

[McLaren]

Navy

That list is full of entitled people who cashed in on their privilege to get establishment jobs. And it's from the Express. :yikes:

Is there a more anti intellectual paper? I am surprised Diana's ghost wasn't on the list.

I want to see a list of the physicists, biologists, poets, authors (of proper stuff), mathematicians, youtube science creators, left wing comedians (think the class of Stewart Lee), English footballers with no yellow cards, philosophers etc who are real intellectuals.

[Diggers]

I don't really see the point in marching.

Ok, so if you wanted to see political change happen what strategies would you use or recommend others to use in order to go about making that change happen?

Vote in a chuffing election/referendum?

If only that referendum had laid out  clear choices where there could be no disagreement. Leave with no deal = tear up the Good Friday Agreement. Was that on the ballot?

No, but it was a pretty clear binary choice wasn't it?

Isn't that the confusion. If it was so clearly binary, why are we where we are at? Even leave voters can't agree what sort of leave they want, it's not like they all want a no deal exit.

Not my problem. Maybe it was just me, but it seemed pretty obvious at the time. In/out; details (obviously ) to be sorted out after result known. Clearly, there were loads of options possible on that basis. If people didn't know what that meant, or could include, surely the safe vote was to remain wasn't it? Better on the inside p!ssing out.
Too many are assuming people voted out because they're thick/didn't know what they were voting for - perhaps they knew damned well? Scary eh?

I still don't understand your point, or rather, what your fair solution is to make it all "OK". As far as I can see you're just moaning at everyone's opinion.

My point, insofar as this post makes one, is that the result was 'out'. My solution? Honour the referendum result? Nothing, now, is going to make it all 'OK'.

So you think we should leave without a deal?

Hah. Nice try. I said I think the referendum result needs to be respected. Parliament could accept May's deal and the DUP go hang. Parliament could cancel A50. Parliament could allow no deal to happen. Parliament could allow for an A50 extension ad infinitum. Parliament could approve a second referendum. Parliament could call a GE. Parliament could give us a referendum on May's deal, but presumably the alternative would be 'remain'. Sure there are other options too. There are consequences for all of them though and I think many people banging on about new referenda or GEs need to be honest and recognise that, which they aren't.

Personally, I don't think a no deal scenario can be anything but bad. Certainly, in the short to medium term.

There are no nice solutions now. One lot are almost certainly going to be royally f***ed off come the end. Only silver lining I can see is a complete re-think of our political system and the traditional parties etc.

I wasn't trying to corner you, or maybe a bit. But really there has to be a solution of sorts, so there has to be debate, so there has to opinion. So I don't really see how that can be disparaged in whatever form people choose to present it.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

That list is full of entitled people who cashed in on their privilege to get establishment jobs.  And it's from the Express.  

Is there a more anti intellectual paper?  I am surprised Diana's ghost wasn't on the list.

I want to see a list of the physicists, biologists, poets, authors (of proper stuff), mathematicians, youtube science creators, left wing comedians (think the class of Stewart Lee), English footballers with no yellow cards, philosophers  etc who are real intellectuals.

True. I did say I hadn't read it!

[navyblueshorts]

I don't really see the point in marching.

Ok, so if you wanted to see political change happen what strategies would you use or recommend others to use in order to go about making that change happen?

Vote in a chuffing election/referendum?

If only that referendum had laid out  clear choices where there could be no disagreement. Leave with no deal = tear up the Good Friday Agreement. Was that on the ballot?

No, but it was a pretty clear binary choice wasn't it?

Isn't that the confusion. If it was so clearly binary, why are we where we are at? Even leave voters can't agree what sort of leave they want, it's not like they all want a no deal exit.

Not my problem. Maybe it was just me, but it seemed pretty obvious at the time. In/out; details (obviously ) to be sorted out after result known. Clearly, there were loads of options possible on that basis. If people didn't know what that meant, or could include, surely the safe vote was to remain wasn't it? Better on the inside p!ssing out.
Too many are assuming people voted out because they're thick/didn't know what they were voting for - perhaps they knew damned well? Scary eh?

I still don't understand your point, or rather, what your fair solution is to make it all "OK". As far as I can see you're just moaning at everyone's opinion.

My point, insofar as this post makes one, is that the result was 'out'. My solution? Honour the referendum result? Nothing, now, is going to make it all 'OK'.

So you think we should leave without a deal?

Hah. Nice try. I said I think the referendum result needs to be respected. Parliament could accept May's deal and the DUP go hang. Parliament could cancel A50. Parliament could allow no deal to happen. Parliament could allow for an A50 extension ad infinitum. Parliament could approve a second referendum. Parliament could call a GE. Parliament could give us a referendum on May's deal, but presumably the alternative would be 'remain'. Sure there are other options too. There are consequences for all of them though and I think many people banging on about new referenda or GEs need to be honest and recognise that, which they aren't.

Personally, I don't think a no deal scenario can be anything but bad. Certainly, in the short to medium term.

There are no nice solutions now. One lot are almost certainly going to be royally f***ed off come the end. Only silver lining I can see is a complete re-think of our political system and the traditional parties etc.

I wasn't trying to corner you, or maybe a bit. But really there has to be a solution of sorts, so there has to be debate, so there has to opinion. So I don't really see how that can be disparaged in whatever form people choose to present it.

Yep. Agree with that. I was just suggesting that petitions and marches aren't really worth getting excited about really, especially when numbers for both don't approach referendum outcomes.

As you say, has to be a solution somehow, but there's going to be a lot of pain for a lot of people however it ends up.

[JAS]

Got to be honest all this “Brexiteers are knuckle dragging thickos” and “Remoaners are timid snowflakes” doesn’t really add anything constructive. A high proportion of both sides are neither thick or over sensitive. Some people have researched the whole thing more than others, some haven’t researched at all. There are valid reasons on both sides. The main reason it’s all got ugly is that it was I’ll conceived and ill planned from the outset. Added to that as the process has evolved it’s pretty clear that our politicians have been less than honest with us. Some of us have been pretty clear for decades that politicians lie through their teeth on a regular basis, to others that have newly engaged in politics they’re shocked. So while the politicians struggle to finish off what they started, the disillusioned British public have entered into a mass slanging match blaming the other side than the one they voted for.

[super_realist]

Navy

That list is full of entitled people who cashed in on their privilege to get establishment jobs.  And it's from the Express.  

Is there a more anti intellectual paper?  I am surprised Diana's ghost wasn't on the list.

I want to see a list of the physicists, biologists, poets, authors (of proper stuff), mathematicians, youtube science creators, left wing comedians (think the class of Stewart Lee), English footballers with no yellow cards, philosophers  etc who are real intellectuals.

Left wing comedians? Are you serious Mac?

[super_realist]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

[pedro]

Left wing comedians? Are you serious Mac?

Corbyn? Black comedy perhaps.

[Diggers]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

You do crack me up, you set yourself up so many times to look a plum. Let's take this post, I've never had a go at the millions of millennials, right or left wingers that they may be. In fact I've defended them. In this post you call all of those people, regardless of knowing nothing about them, sniveling. Hmm, which of us is a hater? You've written off everyone who believes in a religion. You called an unborn child a brat. Hmm, which of us is a hater?
The thing is, I wouldn't expect you to understand why people enjoy a march, simply because you don't have full access to a complete range of emotions. I can understand why it would be confusing for you. A bit like spotting a good footballer, or it slowly dawning on you that your Brexit opinion is exactly the same as Corbyn's.

[JAS]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

The left are indeed quite intolerant, intolerant of entitled elitists holding the country to ransome. The establishment elite pretty much have the press and media all sewn up to their narrative (highly right wing) so putting the counter arguments becomes a more forceful task than it should be. Some see that as intolerant. What the left is not, is intolerant to a sense of fairness in society. It’s the right who are intolerant, intolerant of anyone who gets in the way of selfish greed, intolerant of minorities, intolerant of foreigners etc etc

[McLaren]

Super

I am intolerant of those with right wing stances because they have harmful ideas?

If you are rational, skeptical and anti religious like you claim to be how come you are so tolerant of the right?

[navyblueshorts]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

The left are indeed quite intolerant, intolerant of entitled elitists holding the country to ransome. The establishment elite pretty much have the press and media all sewn up to their narrative (highly right wing) so putting the counter arguments becomes a more forceful task than it should be. Some see that as intolerant. What the left is not, is intolerant to a sense of fairness in society. It’s the right who are intolerant, intolerant of anyone who gets in the way of selfish greed, intolerant of minorities, intolerant of foreigners etc etc

Bit of a sweeping generalisation methinks.

Super

I am intolerant of those with right wing stances because they have harmful ideas?...

Ditto. The implied suggestion that 'the Left' never have harmful ideas doesn't fly either, I'm afraid.

[JAS]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

The left are indeed quite intolerant, intolerant of entitled elitists holding the country to ransome. The establishment elite pretty much have the press and media all sewn up to their narrative (highly right wing) so putting the counter arguments becomes a more forceful task than it should be. Some see that as intolerant. What the left is not, is intolerant to a sense of fairness in society. It’s the right who are intolerant, intolerant of anyone who gets in the way of selfish greed, intolerant of minorities, intolerant of foreigners etc etc

Bit of a sweeping generalisation methinks.

Super

I am intolerant of those with right wing stances because they have harmful ideas?...

Ditto. The implied suggestion that 'the Left' never have harmful ideas doesn't fly either, I'm afraid.

Strangely enough I’m having a debate with my half sister at the minute (she’s as right as I am left) and yes there are one or two valid points among the general bilge. Her biggest beef tends to be the trend toward forced political correctness which she sees as the facist left thought police :-p It’s a good debate!!

[Diggers]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

The left are indeed quite intolerant, intolerant of entitled elitists holding the country to ransome. The establishment elite pretty much have the press and media all sewn up to their narrative (highly right wing) so putting the counter arguments becomes a more forceful task than it should be. Some see that as intolerant. What the left is not, is intolerant to a sense of fairness in society. It’s the right who are intolerant, intolerant of anyone who gets in the way of selfish greed, intolerant of minorities, intolerant of foreigners etc etc

Bit of a sweeping generalisation methinks.

Super

I am intolerant of those with right wing stances because they have harmful ideas?...

Ditto. The implied suggestion that 'the Left' never have harmful ideas doesn't fly either, I'm afraid.

Strangely enough I’m having a debate with my half sister at the minute (she’s as right as I am left) and yes there are one or two valid points among the general bilge. Her biggest beef tends to be the trend toward forced political correctness which she sees as the facist left thought police :-p It’s a good debate!!

I've just been having a chat with another teacher (32 and you would say pretty liberal young mum) who voted leave. Strangely, at least to me, quite a few at my school seem to have, which considering one of the main advocates was Gove (a man they all despise and don't trust). She just said she was drawn in by all the 350 million stuff, as were the other teachers she chatted to who voted leave.
To cut a long story short she thinks it was a massive mistake (this debate was on the back of a text from her husband who said that 4.2 billion has now been spent on this - guess what though, he'd voted leave as well).
and so do the other teachers. I've not met that many people who have changed sides as most I know are ardent remainers who are now even more entrenched. All very anecdotal but gives me hope it it does go to a referendum again, not that I feel that's looking likely.

[dynamark]

No new referendum my remaining friend. Parliament would be up in flames.
My experience was that no one gave a stuff about the money it was more to do with independence, law making ,courts .immigration .I have no wish to be part of a federal European state with it s own army we are very capable of organising ourselves and being good friends and neighbours

[Diggers]

Ah, the Treaty of Lisbon federal army. Complete and utter bollox I’m afraid Dyna, that’s up there with the 350 million and wonky banana fallacies. I thought tempi was meant to be about Project Fear?
Well we may well end up with a “deal” nobody wants, everyone thinks is rubbish and is so bad it’s creator has to quit to get it through. A deal that potentially leaves us more tied to Europe but with no say.
Genius.

[super_realist]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

You do crack me up, you set yourself up so many times to look a plum. Let's take this post, I've never had a go at the millions of millennials, right or left wingers that they may be. In fact I've defended them. In this post you call all of those people, regardless of knowing nothing about them, sniveling. Hmm, which of us is a hater? You've written off everyone who believes in a religion. You called an unborn child a brat. Hmm, which of us is a hater?
The thing is, I wouldn't expect you to understand why people enjoy a march, simply because you don't have full access to a complete range of emotions. I can understand why it would be confusing for you. A bit like spotting a good footballer, or it slowly dawning on you that your Brexit opinion is exactly the same as Corbyn's.

Of course I have a go at millennials, and when I do I'm talking about the pathetic, simpering ones who no platform people and who are the real intolerant ones in society, of course I have a go at religion, it's legalised madness, harmful to society and a completely ridiculous and indefensible thing to hold a belief in. Why would you respect or give deference to something so backward and absurd? Religion deserves no more respect than someone who believes paedophilia is ok. You can respect their right to hold any belief they like, but giving respect and special treatment for anything like that is contrary to the good of society.

You mightn't have had a go at millennials, but you have a go at anyone who doesn't follow your stance on Brexit and politics in general, which is why so many people can't stand the militant remainers. You sound like the sort of person who supported Independence in Scotland, you can't respect the vote of the other person.

It's hilarious you claim I have no access to emotions, you don't know me in the slightest. This is a forum, it's about making a point, not mollycoddling people and constantly being empathetic.

I certainly can spot a good footballer and what would make a good footballer, I've been saying for years the hapless English youth should be going abroad to play football. Look what's happening now, you seem to think that because I made a bad prediction about the bottom end of the most over-rated league in Europe that it means I know nothing about football, and because you're some sort of armchair fan that it makes you some sort of expert, now that's the funny thing.

[dynamark]

Confirmatory referendum rejected by the house even though Labour whipped its mp's for support
A few brave souls abstained and voted in conscience . Lets hope that's the end of that

[Diggers]

Confirmatory referendum rejected by the house even though Labour whipped its mp's for support
A few brave souls abstained and voted in conscience . Lets hope that's the end of that

If Mays deal goes through it will be the end of it, if it doesn't it won't be.

[Diggers]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

You do crack me up, you set yourself up so many times to look a plum. Let's take this post, I've never had a go at the millions of millennials, right or left wingers that they may be. In fact I've defended them. In this post you call all of those people, regardless of knowing nothing about them, sniveling. Hmm, which of us is a hater? You've written off everyone who believes in a religion. You called an unborn child a brat. Hmm, which of us is a hater?
The thing is, I wouldn't expect you to understand why people enjoy a march, simply because you don't have full access to a complete range of emotions. I can understand why it would be confusing for you. A bit like spotting a good footballer, or it slowly dawning on you that your Brexit opinion is exactly the same as Corbyn's.

Of course I have a go at millennials, and when I do I'm talking about the pathetic, simpering ones who no platform people and who are the real intolerant ones in society, of course I have a go at religion, it's legalised madness, harmful to society and a completely ridiculous and indefensible thing to hold a belief in. Why would you respect or give deference to something so backward and absurd? Religion deserves no more respect than someone who believes paedophilia is ok. You can respect their right to hold any belief they like, but giving respect and special treatment for anything like that is contrary to the good of society.

You mightn't have had a go at millennials, but you have a go at anyone who doesn't follow your stance on Brexit and politics in general, which is why so many people can't stand the militant remainers. You sound like the sort of person who supported Independence in Scotland, you can't respect the vote of the other person.

It's hilarious you claim I have no access to emotions, you don't know me in the slightest. This is a forum, it's about making a point, not mollycoddling people and constantly being empathetic.

I certainly can spot a good footballer and what would make a good footballer, I've been saying for years the hapless English youth should be going abroad to play football. Look what's happening now, you seem to think that because I made a bad prediction about the bottom end of the most over-rated league in Europe that it means I know nothing about football, and because you're some sort of armchair fan that it makes you some sort of expert, now that's the funny thing.

And the rant goes on...

[Diggers]

I definitely moan, I've no problem with being called a moaner. What I'm not is a bitter and twisted people hater. I can imagine that a million people gathered together would be a bit of a nightmare for you, especially if they were having a good time.

You absolutely do, or at least you give the impression you do. You appear to hate everyone who has a different opinion to you and is of a different political persuasion. You are a perfect example of how intolerant the left actually is, despite their belief they are actually tolerant. If I didn't know you were in your 50's, I'd presume you were a snivelling millennial.

You do crack me up, you set yourself up so many times to look a plum. Let's take this post, I've never had a go at the millions of millennials, right or left wingers that they may be. In fact I've defended them. In this post you call all of those people, regardless of knowing nothing about them, sniveling. Hmm, which of us is a hater? You've written off everyone who believes in a religion. You called an unborn child a brat. Hmm, which of us is a hater?
The thing is, I wouldn't expect you to understand why people enjoy a march, simply because you don't have full access to a complete range of emotions. I can understand why it would be confusing for you. A bit like spotting a good footballer, or it slowly dawning on you that your Brexit opinion is exactly the same as Corbyn's.

Of course I have a go at millennials, and when I do I'm talking about the pathetic, simpering ones who no platform people and who are the real intolerant ones in society, of course I have a go at religion, it's legalised madness, harmful to society and a completely ridiculous and indefensible thing to hold a belief in. Why would you respect or give deference to something so backward and absurd? Religion deserves no more respect than someone who believes paedophilia is ok. You can respect their right to hold any belief they like, but giving respect and special treatment for anything like that is contrary to the good of society.

You mightn't have had a go at millennials, but you have a go at anyone who doesn't follow your stance on Brexit and politics in general, which is why so many people can't stand the militant remainers. You sound like the sort of person who supported Independence in Scotland, you can't respect the vote of the other person.

It's hilarious you claim I have no access to emotions, you don't know me in the slightest. This is a forum, it's about making a point, not mollycoddling people and constantly being empathetic.

I certainly can spot a good footballer and what would make a good footballer, I've been saying for years the hapless English youth should be going abroad to play football. Look what's happening now, you seem to think that because I made a bad prediction about the bottom end of the most over-rated league in Europe that it means I know nothing about football, and because you're some sort of armchair fan that it makes you some sort of expert, now that's the funny thing.

One English footballer who is in the England squad has gone abroad. One. Are you trying to cite that as some brilliant prediction. All of the young players making an impact came through the youth set ups that have been so successful. The ones you utterly mocked with your somewhat disturbing children comments about 18 and 19 year olds. You don't even know enough about football to understand that.
Liverpool being rubbish, England should not bother going to the world cup, Sterling a waste of money who is really weak (that really showed you up), Stones being completely useless, Crystal Palace going down. Trippier being a thug...sorry, that's just one of your weirdy hater foibles rather than a football thing.  That's just off the top of my head. See that's the thing, if you really are a low handicap golfer (I don't think you are) I'd have no problem admitting you'd know way more about the technical aspects of the game, I know people on here watch a great deal more golf, live and on TV, and have a vast array of knowledge about the game I don't come close to having. I can admit that, it's not an issue. I've watched and played football all my life, I enjoy it (you hate it...there's that word again...) and I know from the way you talk about the game you simply don't have a scooby about any of it. Why would you. But you can't admit that, because you can't see it. You are utterly lacking in any self awareness.

[JAS]

Surely if the house can’t agree on anything the logical solution is to change the makeup of the house, in other words a GE.

The fact is we live in a representative democracy and the current make up of that representation is deadlocked, there is only one realistic way to unlock it.

We can bleat all we like about the “will of the people” and listen to the threats of the rabid brexiteers foaming at the mouth. We either put our trust in parliamentary democracy or we don’t.

How can one “advisory vote” which admittedly was sold as something completely different, cause this level of dysfunction.

[Diggers]

Surely if the house can’t agree on anything the logical solution is to change the makeup of the house, in other words a GE.

The fact is we live in a representative democracy and the current make up of that representation is deadlocked, there is only one realistic way to unlock it.

We can bleat all we like about the “will of the people” and listen to the threats of the rabid brexiteers foaming at the mouth. We either put our trust in parliamentary democracy or we don’t.

How can one “advisory vote” which admittedly was sold as something completely different, cause this level of dysfunction.

I'm not sure how a GE works. How do the parties agree a manifesto to run on that the public can believe is true for every sandidate? If a Tory candidate knocks on your door do you have to ask which Brexit option they want to go for? Same for Labour really. Knock them all you like but at least the SNP and Liberals seem to agree as a group as to what they want.

[navyblueshorts]

Surely if the house can’t agree on anything the logical solution is to change the makeup of the house, in other words a GE.

The fact is we live in a representative democracy and the current make up of that representation is deadlocked, there is only one realistic way to unlock it.

We can bleat all we like about the “will of the people” and listen to the threats of the rabid brexiteers foaming at the mouth. We either put our trust in parliamentary democracy or we don’t.

How can one “advisory vote” which admittedly was sold as something completely different, cause this level of dysfunction.

Nah. No guarantee a GE will change anything. Much as I think it's fraught with risk, I think one option we might end up with is another referendum asking: May's deal or Remain. Problems around Qs on ballot, but something of that ilk is going to happen I think, especially after Monday's Commons debates/votes. If that does happen, especially if 'remain' were to win (maybe it should be couched as 2/3 majority to count?), there's going to be a lot of fury.

[McLaren]

Of course I have a go at millennials, and when I do I'm talking about the pathetic, simpering ones who no platform people and who are the real intolerant ones in society

Are you even sure you mean millenials?  From what I can gather the term refers to those born between 1981 and 1996, but the no platforming you reference is a mostly US college campus issue.  Most millenials have long since left college.  Why does a US college problem even bother you so much? Did one of your heros like Harris or Jordan Petterson get no platformed?

of course I have a go at religion, it's legalised madness, harmful to society and a completely ridiculous and indefensible thing to hold a belief in. Why would you respect or give deference to something so backward and absurd? Religion deserves no more respect than someone who believes paedophilia is ok.

Believing religious claims deserves no respect, and neither do any other poorly evidenced claims such as austerity to alleviate recession, intelligent design, flat earth etc but to say any of these are on the same level as pedophilia is absurd.  Yes they all deserve no respect but pedophilia deserves active repulsion. (Although I would say anti vaxxers are as bad as pedophilia) Such absurd comparisons do nothing to show those afflicted by religion the light.

I certainly can spot a good footballer and what would make a good footballe

Why are you so keen to be thought of as someone who knows about football? You don't watch it, follow it, like it or take any interest in it.  It is clear from you posting on the subject you have no knowledge of the pro game and  have probably never played to any great level.

But that is fine, you are allowed to be naive about something for which you make no effort to learn about.

[pedro]

Pedophilia is not a choice nor stupidity, it’s a disease. Some just manage to surpress it, others don’t.

[McLaren]

Unless the EU offered May a new deal that no one is aware of, how can a MV3 even take place, because without a new EU offer MP's will be voting on exactly the same deal again. Which apparently can't happen.

[McLaren]

Pedophilia is not a choice nor stupidity, it’s a disease. Some just manage to surpress it, others don’t.

Do you manage to "suppress" it?

[dynamark]

That s a bit risky pedro bit lost as to what to say.
Back to brexit we have to decide do we trust the people in a referendum(ultimate democratic vote)or do we trust the house of commons 9our elected reps0.
three years ago the mps decided to ask us in the referendum so as far as I can see the people have it as the speaker would say.

[Diggers]

Unless the EU offered May a new deal that no one is aware of, how can a MV3 even take place, because without a new EU offer MP's will be voting on exactly the same deal again. Which apparently can't happen.

I think that's debatable, in theory Parliament could vote again to take control and as part of the process and put the motion forward again. Also, Bercow has said before their would be no parliamentary development without breaking precedent so he's a bit tied by that. If there really was a strong chance it would pass, one way or another they would get it on the agenda. At the moment that doesn't look likely, some fervent Brexiteers desperately hoping that the default position of quit with no deal applies on April 12th. I still think no deal is the least likely of any outcome personally, but if they are so blinkered to believe it then that's fine by me.

[NedB-H]

Surely if the house can’t agree on anything the logical solution is to change the makeup of the house, in other words a GE.

The fact is we live in a representative democracy and the current make up of that representation is deadlocked, there is only one realistic way to unlock it.

We can bleat all we like about the “will of the people” and listen to the threats of the rabid brexiteers foaming at the mouth. We either put our trust in parliamentary democracy or we don’t.

How can one “advisory vote” which admittedly was sold as something completely different, cause this level of dysfunction.

We’ve got in this mess from having a referendum, further evidence that referenda are terrible ideas and another one will solve naff all. Sooner or later it’s going to come down to getting some sort of policy through Parliament, they should have made progress to that yesterday but Umunna and his idiot mates torpedoed that; after all their talk of needing to build consensus politics they voted down every option that wasn’t remain, when Clarke’s motion would have passed with their votes. And Ken Clarke is hardly a Brexiteer.

The whole mess should have triggered an election as soon as the deal first got voted down. The two standard solutions when a Government can’t get support from its Parliament for its policies are to change the direction of Government, by replacing the leadership, or calling an election. We could have had either of those but the backbench Tories who caused everything to grind to a halt bottled both votes. The stasis now is entirely their fault.

[Diggers]

Surely if the house can’t agree on anything the logical solution is to change the makeup of the house, in other words a GE.

The fact is we live in a representative democracy and the current make up of that representation is deadlocked, there is only one realistic way to unlock it.

We can bleat all we like about the “will of the people” and listen to the threats of the rabid brexiteers foaming at the mouth. We either put our trust in parliamentary democracy or we don’t.

How can one “advisory vote” which admittedly was sold as something completely different, cause this level of dysfunction.

We’ve got in this mess from having a referendum, further evidence that referenda are terrible ideas and another one will solve naff all. Sooner or later it’s going to come down to getting some sort of policy through Parliament, they should have made progress to that yesterday but Umunna and his idiot mates torpedoed that; after all their talk of needing to build consensus politics they voted down every option that wasn’t remain, when Clarke’s motion would have passed with their votes. And Ken Clarke is hardly a Brexiteer.

The whole mess should have triggered an election as soon as the deal first got voted down. The two standard solutions when a Government can’t get support from its Parliament for its policies are to change the direction of Government, by replacing the leadership, or calling an election. We could have had either of those but the backbench Tories who caused everything to grind to a halt bottled both votes. The stasis now is entirely their fault.

The original referendum was indeed bad, that doesn't mean all referendum are. Plenty of examples of how they are used positively, interestingly they are usually successful when not binary, and when they actually take place over several votes.
I would say again, how does either party decide on how they agree what goes on their manifesto re Brexit? Only select candidates who agree with one idea, local constituencies won't agree to deselect certain ERG MP's just because PLP amy (or may not) want them to? Who gets to decide that? Especially for the Tories.

[McLaren]

Really the charade of delivering what the 17.4m dumb fcks voted for should be dropped.  If MP's were really delivering what those fools wanted the debate wouldn't be around economic agreements with the EU and other minor details it would be about deporting "foreigners" and cracking down on multiculturalism,a and a whole host of other nastiness.

Because make no mistake the current mess is just the start, post brexit the parties will have to decide just how draconian they want to make their policies to fit in with an unshackled England, who can go as right wing as they want without the correcting influence of being part of the EU. The minor tweaking of the trade agreement will be a forgotten footnote once the real horror unfolds.  And always remember that support for capital punishment hovers around 50% in he UK.

[NedB-H]

Surely if the house can’t agree on anything the logical solution is to change the makeup of the house, in other words a GE.

The fact is we live in a representative democracy and the current make up of that representation is deadlocked, there is only one realistic way to unlock it.

We can bleat all we like about the “will of the people” and listen to the threats of the rabid brexiteers foaming at the mouth. We either put our trust in parliamentary democracy or we don’t.

How can one “advisory vote” which admittedly was sold as something completely different, cause this level of dysfunction.

We’ve got in this mess from having a referendum, further evidence that referenda are terrible ideas and another one will solve naff all. Sooner or later it’s going to come down to getting some sort of policy through Parliament, they should have made progress to that yesterday but Umunna and his idiot mates torpedoed that; after all their talk of needing to build consensus politics they voted down every option that wasn’t remain, when Clarke’s motion would have passed with their votes. And Ken Clarke is hardly a Brexiteer.

The whole mess should have triggered an election as soon as the deal first got voted down. The two standard solutions when a Government can’t get support from its Parliament for its policies are to change the direction of Government, by replacing the leadership, or calling an election. We could have had either of those but the backbench Tories who caused everything to grind to a halt bottled both votes. The stasis now is entirely their fault.

The original referendum was indeed bad, that doesn't mean all referendum are. Plenty of examples of how they are used positively, interestingly they are usually successful when not binary, and when they actually take place over several votes.
I would say again, how does either party decide on how they agree what goes on their manifesto re Brexit? Only select candidates who agree with one idea, local constituencies won't agree to deselect certain ERG MP's just because PLP amy (or may not) want them to? Who gets to decide that? Especially for the Tories.

What are your examples of successful referenda Digs? They only work when the vote reinforces the option the people in power wanted all along. As much as I hate agreeing with super we’d be in a very similar mess to the one we have now if Scotland had voted for independence. Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system. The downside was that the positive reinforcement Cameron got from those meant he blundered into a fatal third referendum.

If anyone thinks a second EU vote is a good idea, answer two questions: firstly what options do you put on the paper? And secondly what counts as a big enough margin to act upon? As a remainer I wouldn’t be comfortable telling Brexiters their decision was getting overturned on a 52/48 the other way.

I’m not blind enough to think that a GE will be a perfect fix, of course it might not work. But at least at this late stage parties will have to be clear on exactly what their course of action is, unlike the last GE where they got by on vague Brexit promises which different factions of MPs took to mean whatever they liked. It’d be a lot harder now to vote against a specific withdrawal plan that your own party had run an election based exactly on.

[navyblueshorts]

We’ve got in this mess from having a referendum, further evidence that referenda are terrible ideas and another one will solve naff all. Sooner or later it’s going to come down to getting some sort of policy through Parliament, they should have made progress to that yesterday but Umunna and his idiot mates torpedoed that; after all their talk of needing to build consensus politics they voted down every option that wasn’t remain, when Clarke’s motion would have passed with their votes¹. And Ken Clarke is hardly a Brexiteer.

The whole mess should have triggered an election as soon as the deal first got voted down². The two standard solutions when a Government can’t get support from its Parliament for its policies are to change the direction of Government, by replacing the leadership, or calling an election. We could have had either of those but the backbench Tories who caused everything to grind to a halt bottled both votes. The stasis now is entirely their fault.

¹What difference would that have made? A minor vote in favour of that option? No-one would take that seriously. If it had been, say, >500 for that motion, I can see that May might have felt she had to listen. A majority in single figures on a non-binding motion? Pretty useless.
²Would there have been enough time to run a GE from then and sort out Brexit thereafter? That's assuming, of course, that a GE result would actually change anything in the dynamic of the Commons. No guarantees.

[McLaren]

Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system.

Why do you think having a PR system would be a mess? (and the referendum was actually for AV, but in my view a step in the right direction)

[Diggers]

Surely if the house can’t agree on anything the logical solution is to change the makeup of the house, in other words a GE.

The fact is we live in a representative democracy and the current make up of that representation is deadlocked, there is only one realistic way to unlock it.

We can bleat all we like about the “will of the people” and listen to the threats of the rabid brexiteers foaming at the mouth. We either put our trust in parliamentary democracy or we don’t.

How can one “advisory vote” which admittedly was sold as something completely different, cause this level of dysfunction.

We’ve got in this mess from having a referendum, further evidence that referenda are terrible ideas and another one will solve naff all. Sooner or later it’s going to come down to getting some sort of policy through Parliament, they should have made progress to that yesterday but Umunna and his idiot mates torpedoed that; after all their talk of needing to build consensus politics they voted down every option that wasn’t remain, when Clarke’s motion would have passed with their votes. And Ken Clarke is hardly a Brexiteer.

The whole mess should have triggered an election as soon as the deal first got voted down. The two standard solutions when a Government can’t get support from its Parliament for its policies are to change the direction of Government, by replacing the leadership, or calling an election. We could have had either of those but the backbench Tories who caused everything to grind to a halt bottled both votes. The stasis now is entirely their fault.

The original referendum was indeed bad, that doesn't mean all referendum are. Plenty of examples of how they are used positively, interestingly they are usually successful when not binary, and when they actually take place over several votes.
I would say again, how does either party decide on how they agree what goes on their manifesto re Brexit? Only select candidates who agree with one idea, local constituencies won't agree to deselect certain ERG MP's just because PLP amy (or may not) want them to? Who gets to decide that? Especially for the Tories.

What are your examples of successful referenda Digs? They only work when the vote reinforces the option the people in power wanted all along. As much as I hate agreeing with super we’d be in a very similar mess to the one we have now if Scotland had voted for independence. Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system. The downside was that the positive reinforcement Cameron got from those meant he blundered into a fatal third referendum.

If anyone thinks a second EU vote is a good idea, answer two questions: firstly what options do you put on the paper? And secondly what counts as a big enough margin to act upon? As a remainer I wouldn’t be comfortable telling Brexiters their decision was getting overturned on a 52/48 the other way.

I’m not blind enough to think that a GE will be a perfect fix, of course it might not work. But at least at this late stage parties will have to be clear on exactly what their course of action is, unlike the last GE where they got by on vague Brexit promises which different factions of MPs took to mean whatever they liked. It’d be a lot harder now to vote against a specific withdrawal plan that your own party had run an election based exactly on.

New Zealand recently, where I believe they voted using a preference system. They are used quite regularly in many US states, clearly the cantons in Switzerland use them regularly. There are plenty of possible options, no deal and Mays deal, customs union or revoke 50. I'm not saying it's ideal, like I've said the other day I'd possibly prefer a soft Brexit put through Parliament (I believe that could have been achieved if it weren't for May). Just that referendums don't have to be as shockingly awful as ours was.
Still don't see how the Tories actually agree their Brexit policy for a GE, that's pretty much impossible surely.

[navyblueshorts]

Really the charade of delivering what the 17.4m dumb fcks voted for should be dropped.  If MP's were really delivering what those fools wanted the debate wouldn't be around economic agreements with the EU and other minor details it would be about deporting "foreigners" and cracking down on multiculturalism,a and a whole host of other nastiness.

Because make no mistake the current mess is just the start, post brexit the parties will have to decide just how draconian they want to make their policies to fit in with an unshackled England, who can go as right wing as they want without the correcting influence of being part of the EU. The minor tweaking of the trade agreement will be a forgotten footnote once the real horror unfolds.  And always remember that support for capital punishment hovers around 50% in he UK.

You demonstrate, again and again, why opinions are entrenched. Don't you understand? Don't you get how this works? Don't you understand what voting means? Don't you understand that you have to accept democratic outcomes that you don't agree with? Don't you understand that your opinion, expressed as you started off, is no way whatsoever to convince people that the decision should be re-visited? Jesus wept...

I don't even necessarily disagree with your thesis in the second paragraph, although the capital punishment is over-egging it a bit I suspect.

[navyblueshorts]

What are your examples of successful referenda Digs? They only work when the vote reinforces the option the people in power wanted all along. As much as I hate agreeing with super we’d be in a very similar mess to the one we have now if Scotland had voted for independence. Likewise if we’d voted for a PR system. The downside was that the positive reinforcement Cameron got from those meant he blundered into a fatal third referendum.

If anyone thinks a second EU vote is a good idea, answer two questions: firstly what options do you put on the paper? And secondly what counts as a big enough margin to act upon? As a remainer I wouldn’t be comfortable telling Brexiters their decision was getting overturned on a 52/48 the other way.

I’m not blind enough to think that a GE will be a perfect fix, of course it might not work. But at least at this late stage parties will have to be clear on exactly what their course of action is, unlike the last GE where they got by on vague Brexit promises which different factions of MPs took to mean whatever they liked. It’d be a lot harder now to vote against a specific withdrawal plan that your own party had run an election based exactly on.

Switzerland does OK, last time I looked...

[McLaren]

Navy

When I said

Really the charade of delivering what the 17.4m dumb fcks voted for should be dropped. 

I am saying that the parties are not actually carrying out the "will of the people", if they were then the current debate wouldn't be around trade deals and small print about how we talk to the EU in the future. So I hope you will agree I have understood what leave voters voted for better than most.  I am saying that leave voters are not getting what they wanted yet.  As I say they will however in the coming years.

My post was a warning about what delivering the will of the 17.4m would actually look like.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

When I said

Really the charade of delivering what the 17.4m dumb fcks voted for should be dropped. 

I am saying that the parties are not actually carrying out the "will of the people", if they were then the current debate wouldn't be around trade deals and small print about how we talk to the EU in the future. So I hope you will agree I have understood what leave voters voted for better than most.  I am saying that leave voters are not getting what they wanted yet.  As I say they will however in the coming years.

My post was a warning about what delivering the will of the 17.4m would actually look like.

I get that, but your "delivering what the 17.4m dumb fcks voted for" is explicitly accusing 17.4m people of being "dumb fcks". Not a great way of beginning to persuade them to re-consider.

[McLaren]

Not sure I would even try to get them to reconsider. It's not for me to point out the obvious.

[navyblueshorts]

Not sure I would even try to get them to reconsider. It's not for me to point out the obvious.

But that's just it - it's precisely for you, and people like you (including in the Commons), to persuade those 17.4m that they should re-consider. You can't simply stand there, insult them and expect them to listen.

[Diggers]

Not sure I would even try to get them to reconsider. It's not for me to point out the obvious.

But that's just it - it's precisely for you, and people like you (including in the Commons), to persuade those 17.4m that they should re-consider. You can't simply stand there, insult them and expect them to listen.

Maybe by holding a big, peaceful march?

[McLaren]

Not that I have the status or platform to do it, but I just wouldn't count myself as a campaigner or whatever you want to call it. Brexit will happen and destroy our nation, for that reason alone I feel justified in handing out harsh criticism to those that delivered this.

[Diggers]

I don't think it will destroy it, but it will change it and make it less a place I want to live or have any kind of pride in.

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