Pro14 is dead...

First topic message reminder :

Well we are nearing the end of the normal season and going into the knock out stages, and thanks to Premier Sports I can know say with confidence that my earlier prediction has materialised and the day has killed the Pro14.

They promised 1 game on FreeSports every week. Well unless you follow Zebre or the Kings you’ve not had that game. The Ospreys have not had one game shown on FreeSports. As for free to air coverage on S4C that has also been hit or miss, with them banning the red button English cometary, and again covering games with little interest.

So , since the conception of the league, this is the first season I’ve not been able to follow with interest. No (little) live coverage of games, no magazine show I’ve been able to watch to keep up with the league. I’ve managed to get to minimum Ospreys home games this season, due to family commitments. Basically, only rugby I’ve been able to follow has been the 6 Nations.

Thanks, Pro14, you played a stormer selling out. Enjoy the cash injection it brought, as it won’t last...

TBH the Premiership is the same as any other league, the best teams can play some exciting running rugby (and stick the ball up the jumper when required) just like Leinster or Glasgow are in the PRO14, the quality falls off in the middle and lower clubs though in exactly the same way, and whilst the relegation battle is exciting, with the second tier nearly always being a shoo in for the relegated team then it's more a game of musical chairs.

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I like it because it's rugby. If you're missing out on enjoying rugby - and, by extension, life - because of some tired allegiance to a sense of nationalism defined by its opposition to anything English, that's just sad.

As for the actual rugby, things changed around 2013-14. Suddenly it went from fairly laboured, 10-man rugby for the most part to something quite enjoyable to watch: two big packs really going for it, but with the ball being moved wide and high scoring games being played out as a result. An influx of SH players - Willie Le Roux, JP Peterson stick out in my mind as being symbolic of the change - who were genuinely really good, rather than journeymen played a big part in that, but it wasn't the only reason, for sure.

It's gone back to being a bit more boring now as teams are tightening up - particularly with the jeopardy over relegation this year, the rise of clubs like Bristol upsetting the order that was being established etc. But it's still often a decent standard to watch.

Disagree entirely that the Pro14 has surpassed it: Leinster and Munster literally play like English Premiership teams. Leinster play like Exeter in my opinion, it's really not that different in terms of tactics and style. Only Glasgow - and sometimes the Scarlets - can really lay claim to the notion that they play more exciting/creative rugby than anything in the Premiership.

But all rugby has its place. Glasgow got hammered by Saracens' power; it's now up to Leinster to see what they can do.

Anyway, maybe watch some Premiership highlights once in a while. There are some good players and team out there - although I've found that the editing on those videos is often shocking. 20 seconds of watching a player lining up a kick, only the last 2 phases of a multi phase try etc. But anyway, it's free to watch on the internet, so...

Zzzzz. God you are your usual boring patronising self. Couldn't be arsed reading beyond your opening line.

Well done. Next year you'll be able to manage 2 lines in one lesson Good job Collapse, showing marked improvement.

You want to know if the Pro14 is dead or not? Just look at the description on this forum.

"For all your club needs - from the RaboPro12 to the Aviva Premiership, talk about it in here."

"Discuss all things Rugby Union here. From the 6 Nations to the Heineken Cup and S15."

Someone should tell the ERCC and Super Rugby too then

Agreed

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I like it because it's rugby. If you're missing out on enjoying rugby - and, by extension, life - because of some tired allegiance to a sense of nationalism defined by its opposition to anything English, that's just sad.

As for the actual rugby, things changed around 2013-14. Suddenly it went from fairly laboured, 10-man rugby for the most part to something quite enjoyable to watch: two big packs really going for it, but with the ball being moved wide and high scoring games being played out as a result. An influx of SH players - Willie Le Roux, JP Peterson stick out in my mind as being symbolic of the change - who were genuinely really good, rather than journeymen played a big part in that, but it wasn't the only reason, for sure.

It's gone back to being a bit more boring now as teams are tightening up - particularly with the jeopardy over relegation this year, the rise of clubs like Bristol upsetting the order that was being established etc. But it's still often a decent standard to watch.

Disagree entirely that the Pro14 has surpassed it: Leinster and Munster literally play like English Premiership teams. Leinster play like Exeter in my opinion, it's really not that different in terms of tactics and style. Only Glasgow - and sometimes the Scarlets - can really lay claim to the notion that they play more exciting/creative rugby than anything in the Premiership.

But all rugby has its place. Glasgow got hammered by Saracens' power; it's now up to Leinster to see what they can do.

Anyway, maybe watch some Premiership highlights once in a while. There are some good players and team out there - although I've found that the editing on those videos is often shocking. 20 seconds of watching a player lining up a kick, only the last 2 phases of a multi phase try etc. But anyway, it's free to watch on the internet, so...

Maybe watch some Pro14 highlights once in a while, there are some good players and teams out there. You know that Zebre beat Bristol and Benetton beat Harlequins in this years CC. I think some people have it in their heads that the mid to lower teams are of far higher quality than the mid and lower teams in the pro14 for some reason. Just look at Cardiff winning the CC last season and Glasgow, Edinburgh and Scarlets reaching the semis in recent times.

Not a great year for the premiership in the Heineken this year
4 teams finished bottom, Bath only won one and Exeter lost more than they lost
By contrast 5 of the 7 Pro14 teams were QFs and Cardiff won as many as Exeter
Saracens have been carrying the rest of the league, in Europe, for a few years now.

geoff999rugby wrote:Not a great year for the premiership in the Heineken this year
4 teams finished bottom, Bath only won one and Exeter lost more than they lost
By contrast 5 of the 7 Pro14 teams were QFs and Cardiff won as many as Exeter
Saracens have been carrying the rest of the league, in Europe, for a few years now.

DREADFUL year for Exeter...!

In Europe it was, which is what I said.
Again they failed to translate Domestic results into European results

They have qualified for Europe in 6 of the last 7 years and have NEVER won more than they have lost in the Group stages
For all their success on the Domestic stage they are not cutting it in the European arena

My view is this is because superb coaching is turning some unexceptional but decent players in excellent team players who play a key role in a team environment.
I'll give you two examples, the Ulstermen Whitten and Steenson.
This is good enough domestically but comes up short in Europe

Don't forget though geoff, the GP teams don't rotate their players and put out their best XV every game

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I like it because it's rugby. If you're missing out on enjoying rugby - and, by extension, life - because of some tired allegiance to a sense of nationalism defined by its opposition to anything English, that's just sad.

As for the actual rugby, things changed around 2013-14. Suddenly it went from fairly laboured, 10-man rugby for the most part to something quite enjoyable to watch: two big packs really going for it, but with the ball being moved wide and high scoring games being played out as a result. An influx of SH players - Willie Le Roux, JP Peterson stick out in my mind as being symbolic of the change - who were genuinely really good, rather than journeymen played a big part in that, but it wasn't the only reason, for sure.

It's gone back to being a bit more boring now as teams are tightening up - particularly with the jeopardy over relegation this year, the rise of clubs like Bristol upsetting the order that was being established etc. But it's still often a decent standard to watch.

Disagree entirely that the Pro14 has surpassed it: Leinster and Munster literally play like English Premiership teams. Leinster play like Exeter in my opinion, it's really not that different in terms of tactics and style. Only Glasgow - and sometimes the Scarlets - can really lay claim to the notion that they play more exciting/creative rugby than anything in the Premiership.

But all rugby has its place. Glasgow got hammered by Saracens' power; it's now up to Leinster to see what they can do.

Anyway, maybe watch some Premiership highlights once in a while. There are some good players and team out there - although I've found that the editing on those videos is often shocking. 20 seconds of watching a player lining up a kick, only the last 2 phases of a multi phase try etc. But anyway, it's free to watch on the internet, so...

Well said.

The English Premiership is a fantastic competition. I always watch the Friday night Premiership game instead of whatever dirge the Pro14 has to offer. And my team plays in the Pro14.

I think we can finally put the argument to be on what league is better, seeing as CVC assessed the English premiership as being 1.8 times more valuable than the Pro14.

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Well said.

The English Premiership is a fantastic competition. I always watch the Friday night Premiership game instead of whatever dirge the Pro14 has to offer. And my team plays in the Pro14.

I think we can finally put the argument to be on what league is better, seeing as CVC assessed the English premiership as being 1.8 times more valuable than the Pro14.

Where does quality show on the balance sheet?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I like it because it's rugby. If you're missing out on enjoying rugby - and, by extension, life - because of some tired allegiance to a sense of nationalism defined by its opposition to anything English, that's just sad.

As for the actual rugby, things changed around 2013-14. Suddenly it went from fairly laboured, 10-man rugby for the most part to something quite enjoyable to watch: two big packs really going for it, but with the ball being moved wide and high scoring games being played out as a result. An influx of SH players - Willie Le Roux, JP Peterson stick out in my mind as being symbolic of the change - who were genuinely really good, rather than journeymen played a big part in that, but it wasn't the only reason, for sure.

It's gone back to being a bit more boring now as teams are tightening up - particularly with the jeopardy over relegation this year, the rise of clubs like Bristol upsetting the order that was being established etc. But it's still often a decent standard to watch.

Disagree entirely that the Pro14 has surpassed it: Leinster and Munster literally play like English Premiership teams. Leinster play like Exeter in my opinion, it's really not that different in terms of tactics and style. Only Glasgow - and sometimes the Scarlets - can really lay claim to the notion that they play more exciting/creative rugby than anything in the Premiership.

But all rugby has its place. Glasgow got hammered by Saracens' power; it's now up to Leinster to see what they can do.

Anyway, maybe watch some Premiership highlights once in a while. There are some good players and team out there - although I've found that the editing on those videos is often shocking. 20 seconds of watching a player lining up a kick, only the last 2 phases of a multi phase try etc. But anyway, it's free to watch on the internet, so...

Well said.

The English Premiership is a fantastic competition. I always watch the Friday night Premiership game instead of whatever dirge the Pro14 has to offer. And my team plays in the Pro14.

I think we can finally put the argument to be on what league is better, seeing as CVC assessed the English premiership as being 1.8 times more valuable than the Pro14.

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

It's more valuable, because it's better, has a larger quantity of good teams. Has more good matches. Is more sellable around the world. The English premiership exists in a bigger market - and it only has 1 nation in it. The pro14 can't even compete with it despite it having teams from 6 countries and 2 continents in it!

You are hugely, massively and tragically in denial.

Nascar is good by the way. I don't believe I'm a redneck.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

It's more valuable, because it's better, has a larger quantity of good teams. Has more good matches. Is more sellable around the world. The English premiership exists in a bigger market - and it only has 1 nation in it. The pro14 can't even compete with it despite it having teams from 6 countries and 2 continents in it!

You are hugely, massively and tragically in denial.

Nascar is good by the way. I don't believe I'm a redneck.

I felt like a primary school teacher marking homework trying to read that

The Premiership has 12 teams, 13 shareholders. In what world is 13 a larger quantity of teams?

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

It's more valuable, because it's better, has a larger quantity of good teams. Has more good matches. Is more sellable around the world. The English premiership exists in a bigger market - and it only has 1 nation in it. The pro14 can't even compete with it despite it having teams from 6 countries and 2 continents in it!

You are hugely, massively and tragically in denial.

Nascar is good by the way. I don't believe I'm a redneck.

I felt like a primary school teacher marking homework trying to read that

The Premiership has 12 teams, 13 shareholders. In what world is 13 a larger quantity of teams?

I think you need to re-read.

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

It's more valuable, because it's better, has a larger quantity of good teams. Has more good matches. Is more sellable around the world. The English premiership exists in a bigger market - and it only has 1 nation in it. The pro14 can't even compete with it despite it having teams from 6 countries and 2 continents in it!

You are hugely, massively and tragically in denial.

Nascar is good by the way. I don't believe I'm a redneck.

I felt like a primary school teacher marking homework trying to read that

The Premiership has 12 teams, 13 shareholders. In what world is 13 a larger quantity of teams?

I think you need to re-read.

Define good

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

It's more valuable, because it's better, has a larger quantity of good teams. Has more good matches. Is more sellable around the world. The English premiership exists in a bigger market - and it only has 1 nation in it. The pro14 can't even compete with it despite it having teams from 6 countries and 2 continents in it!

You are hugely, massively and tragically in denial.

Nascar is good by the way. I don't believe I'm a redneck.

I felt like a primary school teacher marking homework trying to read that

The Premiership has 12 teams, 13 shareholders. In what world is 13 a larger quantity of teams?

I think you need to re-read.

Is that plum still getting things wrong?

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

It's more valuable, because it's better, has a larger quantity of good teams. Has more good matches. Is more sellable around the world. The English premiership exists in a bigger market - and it only has 1 nation in it. The pro14 can't even compete with it despite it having teams from 6 countries and 2 continents in it!

You are hugely, massively and tragically in denial.

Nascar is good by the way. I don't believe I'm a redneck.

I felt like a primary school teacher marking homework trying to read that

The Premiership has 12 teams, 13 shareholders. In what world is 13 a larger quantity of teams?

I think you need to re-read.

Define good

Why do I need to do that? You called him out on his primary school level writing and you’ve responded with primary school level reading and comprehension! Don’t try to deflect!

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

It's more valuable, because it's better, has a larger quantity of good teams. Has more good matches. Is more sellable around the world. The English premiership exists in a bigger market - and it only has 1 nation in it. The pro14 can't even compete with it despite it having teams from 6 countries and 2 continents in it!

You are hugely, massively and tragically in denial.

Nascar is good by the way. I don't believe I'm a redneck.

I felt like a primary school teacher marking homework trying to read that

The Premiership has 12 teams, 13 shareholders. In what world is 13 a larger quantity of teams?

I think you need to re-read.

Is that plum still getting things wrong?

Was there not a clear message on here about name calling last week...yet here we are?

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

Since when does somethings monetary value determine how "good" it is?

Nascar is probably one of the most valuable sports in the world but it would bore the pants of most people who aren't rednecks. The English premiership just exists in a bigger market than the pro14 for now.

It's more valuable, because it's better, has a larger quantity of good teams. Has more good matches. Is more sellable around the world. The English premiership exists in a bigger market - and it only has 1 nation in it. The pro14 can't even compete with it despite it having teams from 6 countries and 2 continents in it!

You are hugely, massively and tragically in denial.

Nascar is good by the way. I don't believe I'm a redneck.

I felt like a primary school teacher marking homework trying to read that

The Premiership has 12 teams, 13 shareholders. In what world is 13 a larger quantity of teams?

I think you need to re-read.

Define good

Why do I need to do that? You called him out on his primary school level writing and you’ve responded with primary school level reading and comprehension! Don’t try to deflect!

Who's trying to deflect?

He's linking the intangible to the tangible and offers nothing to substantiate his claim of who is and isn't good and basically is saying that CVC are of the same opinion as him . Are Newcastle a good team? They were last season are they suddenly not this season?

I asked him where on the balance sheet quality is shown and might that be because he has no clue what he's talking about?

As Geoff already pointed out, if the English teams are so good their performances at the same level say otherwise and would say there are more Pro14 teams but no I should focus on and guess what his opinion of good is

geoff999rugby wrote:In Europe it was, which is what I said.

It was just a comment on the type. 'Lost more than they lost'.

I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the premiership doesn't have better sides that the Pro 14.

Collapse2005 wrote:I would have thought it was pretty obvious that the premiership doesn't have better sides that the Pro 14.

Anything with the Irish in it is better

The two best sides are Leinster and Saracens, think most would agree with that. After that, there's a tier of teams such as Munster, Ulster, Exeter, Glasgow who can all beat each other on their day

Assuming that would be the teams described as "good teams", think its fair to say that Pro14 has more quality at the top end of the league.

I do think that the bottom end of the GP is better than the equivalent in the Pro14 though

BamBam wrote:The two best sides are Leinster and Saracens, think most would agree with that. After that, there's a tier of teams such as Munster, Ulster, Exeter, Glasgow who can all beat each other on their day

Assuming that would be the teams described as "good teams", think its fair to say that Pro14 has more quality at the top end of the league.

I do think that the bottom end of the GP is better than the equivalent in the Pro14 though

That all depends when you are asking, that's why I mentioned Newcastle. They have won as many in their last 5 games as they did in the previous 14. Are they a good team now? Were they a good team before? What makes a good team? Is it results? Performances?

I'd base it on results over more than one season, performance in both Europe and the domestic league.

Newcastle for me would be ranked somewhere around 20th if I was to put together BamBam's ranking of the Pro14/GP teams

If I was a fan of a middling English club I would not want to face any of Leinster/Munster/Glasgow in a 1 off game to save my life

Similarly if I was a fan of a middling Pro14 team, I wouldn't want to face Saracens/Exeter in the same situation

Not very scientific but its about all I've got

Newcastle also won in Toulon and at home to Montpelier during their GP losing run. I firmly believe they would finish top of a pool that featured them, Zebre, Dragons & Kings.

If CVC get their way, then this kind of thing could happen from the 22/23 season.

LondonTiger wrote:
If CVC get their way, then this kind of thing could happen from the 22/23 season.

Let's hope so.

This site is interesting. Not sure on the methodology they use, and SH fans will (with some metit) claim that the table seems to under-reward SR performances.

http://www.rugbyranker.com/

Looking purely at GP & Pro14 we have:

Leinster
Saracens
Munster
Exeter
Glasgow
Ulster
Gloucester
Edinburgh
Connacht
Northampton
Sale
Cardiff
Bath
Benetton
Quins
Scarlets
Worcester
Ospreys
Wasps
Bristol
Newcastle
Leicester
Cheetahs
Zebre
Dragons
Kings

It should be noted that London Irish are ranked between Cheetahs and Zebre

BamBam wrote:The two best sides are Leinster and Saracens, think most would agree with that. After that, there's a tier of teams such as Munster, Ulster, Exeter, Glasgow who can all beat each other on their day

Assuming that would be the teams described as "good teams", think its fair to say that Pro14 has more quality at the top end of the league.

I do think that the bottom end of the GP is better than the equivalent in the Pro14 though

Probably a reasonable assessment.

`Bottom line is there isn't much difference however, it is my view that the Pro14 shades it at the moment with greater potential for improvement and growth.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:
If CVC get their way, then this kind of thing could happen from the 22/23 season.

Let's hope so.

Not replacing GP and Pro14 as you want, but replacing EPCR as the contracts with that organisation end in 2022. A draft proposal suggests the domestic leagues would end before the 6Ns with some form of full playoffs to end the season in April and May between the GP and Pro14 teams.

LondonTiger wrote:This site is interesting. Not sure on the methodology they use, and SH fans will (with some metit) claim that the table seems to under-reward SR performances.

http://www.rugbyranker.com/

Looking purely at GP & Pro14 we have:

Leinster
Saracens
Munster
Exeter
Glasgow
Ulster
Gloucester
Edinburgh
Connacht
Northampton
Sale
Cardiff
Bath
Benetton
Quins
Scarlets
Worcester
Ospreys
Wasps
Bristol
Newcastle
Leicester
Cheetahs
Zebre
Dragons
Kings

It should be noted that London Irish are ranked between Cheetahs and Zebre

Seems about right. I don't think the super rugby sides would dominate the top NH sides at all but I think it is reasonable to claim Crusaders are the top side in the world at the moment.

I don't think it's a million miles away, but it does feel a bit...form-based?

For instance, the Scarlets are a prime example of a good club that has underperformed massively this season for quite a few different reasons. You'd expect them to be much, much better next season. Can you quantify the things that have tripped them up this year in whatever metric used to judge that? Probably not - you can't factor in 'the coach got the Wales job', 'everyone got injured', presumably?

But you can look and see that they won the league 2 years ago, got to the final last year, and the semis in Europe as well. Yet they're behind the Blues (who, admittedly, won a Euro trophy, but 2nd tier), Connacht, Benneton, Edinburgh, and even Ulster with their shocking year last year? Look across to England, and Quins, Sale, Bath, Northampton, and Gloucester are all deemed better?

Not so sure about that. And that's not just a case of being a fan - it's knowing that 'other things' come in to play. Where Bennetton will be delighted with their league position, for instance, the Scarlets are disgusted/devastated. This doesn't really seem to take longer term ability, success, and (crucially) potential in to account in a way that seems satisfactory.

I don't think there's any issue with the top 5 (apart from Munster, I'd bump them down to 5th and probably have them 'outside' the top 4, so to speak), but beneath that, it just feels a bit like sliding over the current league positions, with a bit of Europe factored in as well. Which obviously hinders Champions Cup teams, and helps the teams in the Challenge Cup: because one is losing more frequently to the likes of Toulouse etc., the other is beating a bunch of Siberian farmers.

I think the comment above got it right - not too much difference between Saracens and Leinster, Exeter and Glasgow at the top of the Pro14. Munster, Ulster, Scarlets (bar this year) are at least on a par with Wasps (at their best), and can probably go a level above Gloucester, Quins, Bath, Leicester (when they're not imploding) etc. - basically, whoever's putting up a good fight for 3rd spot. That group of teams is probably marginally better than the other two Welsh teams (at the moment, Ospreys were once in that top tier), Connacht, Benneton, typically Edinburgh but maybe they've now joined the tier above. Those Pro14 teams are better than the lower tiers of the Premiership who, bar the typical whipping boy, are all around a similar standard.

This year, there is no whipping boy as Bristol obviously poured money in to ensuring they stood the best chance of staying up. That said, I'd still make Newcastle some way better than Dragons, Zebre, the SA teams.

It's more the fact that, as a competition, the Premiership doesn't have those 'why are we even here' games the Pro14 does. Every game is a fight - even if it's a horrible standard, in a different way to the Pro14 - because of relegation. That alone makes it a better comp: that's irrefutable.

I don't actually think the Pro14 is dead at all. It's a good premise, and has been - at times, mainly before the Italians joined - a really good competition. It just needs treating properly/seriously. It needs tweaking. There's no way you can have Leinster playing at the same 'level' as Dragons, Kings etc. If it needs to be a top tiered conference system with England joining, so be it.

BUT, as pointed out on the other thread, there are staggered kick-off times this weekend - so certain teams will know exactly what they need to do where others are playing 'blind', so to speak.

That's the sort of influence Premier Sports has. It's also a case of the league not really being treated all that seriously - just like the changing of th fixture list, and the different kick-off times, a few more viewing figures matter more than the integrity of what is (OBVIOUSLY) a hallmark of a serious and 'fair' competition.

Poor stuff from the Pro14.

Doesn't the 6N have staggered kick offs every week?

miaow wrote:I don't actually think the Pro14 is dead at all. It's a good premise, and has been - at times, mainly before the Italians joined - a really good competition. It just needs treating properly/seriously. It needs tweaking. There's no way you can have Leinster playing at the same 'level' as Dragons, Kings etc. If it needs to be a top tiered conference system with England joining, so be it.

BUT, as pointed out on the other thread, there are staggered kick-off times this weekend - so certain teams will know exactly what they need to do where others are playing 'blind', so to speak.

That's the sort of influence Premier Sports has. It's also a case of the league not really being treated all that seriously - just like the changing of th fixture list, and the different kick-off times, a few more viewing figures matter more than the integrity of what is (OBVIOUSLY) a hallmark of a serious and 'fair' competition.

Poor stuff from the Pro14.

I guess Premier Sports had the same influence last season too

miaow wrote:I don't actually think the Pro14 is dead at all. It's a good premise, and has been - at times, mainly before the Italians joined - a really good competition. It just needs treating properly/seriously. It needs tweaking. There's no way you can have Leinster playing at the same 'level' as Dragons, Kings etc. If it needs to be a top tiered conference system with England joining, so be it.

BUT, as pointed out on the other thread, there are staggered kick-off times this weekend - so certain teams will know exactly what they need to do where others are playing 'blind', so to speak.

That's the sort of influence Premier Sports has. It's also a case of the league not really being treated all that seriously - just like the changing of th fixture list, and the different kick-off times, a few more viewing figures matter more than the integrity of what is (OBVIOUSLY) a hallmark of a serious and 'fair' competition.

Poor stuff from the Pro14.

Spot on. The denial on this forum is on another level.

Every time there are officiating bias issues, kick off time issues etc - there is always a poor excuse.

Yes it happens in the the 6 Nations. That doesn't mean it's right. It's just another reason why CVC valued the english premiership at 1.8 times the value of the pro14. The Pro14 isn't a serious league. It's a breeding ground for the Unions to prime their players for test rugby.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

miaow wrote:I don't actually think the Pro14 is dead at all. It's a good premise, and has been - at times, mainly before the Italians joined - a really good competition. It just needs treating properly/seriously. It needs tweaking. There's no way you can have Leinster playing at the same 'level' as Dragons, Kings etc. If it needs to be a top tiered conference system with England joining, so be it.

BUT, as pointed out on the other thread, there are staggered kick-off times this weekend - so certain teams will know exactly what they need to do where others are playing 'blind', so to speak.

That's the sort of influence Premier Sports has. It's also a case of the league not really being treated all that seriously - just like the changing of th fixture list, and the different kick-off times, a few more viewing figures matter more than the integrity of what is (OBVIOUSLY) a hallmark of a serious and 'fair' competition.

Poor stuff from the Pro14.

Spot on. The denial on this forum is on another level.

Every time there are officiating bias issues, kick off time issues etc - there is always a poor excuse.

Yes it happens in the the 6 Nations. That doesn't mean it's right. It's just another reason why CVC valued the english premiership at 1.8 times the value of the pro14. The Pro14 isn't a serious league. It's a breeding ground for the Unions to prime their players for test rugby.

Except your argument is that some teams know what they need to do going into a game, that's also the same when teams kick off at the same time so maybe you should work on your own soft arguments first

RugbyFan100 wrote:

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

miaow wrote:If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I like it because it's rugby. If you're missing out on enjoying rugby - and, by extension, life - because of some tired allegiance to a sense of nationalism defined by its opposition to anything English, that's just sad.

As for the actual rugby, things changed around 2013-14. Suddenly it went from fairly laboured, 10-man rugby for the most part to something quite enjoyable to watch: two big packs really going for it, but with the ball being moved wide and high scoring games being played out as a result. An influx of SH players - Willie Le Roux, JP Peterson stick out in my mind as being symbolic of the change - who were genuinely really good, rather than journeymen played a big part in that, but it wasn't the only reason, for sure.

It's gone back to being a bit more boring now as teams are tightening up - particularly with the jeopardy over relegation this year, the rise of clubs like Bristol upsetting the order that was being established etc. But it's still often a decent standard to watch.

Disagree entirely that the Pro14 has surpassed it: Leinster and Munster literally play like English Premiership teams. Leinster play like Exeter in my opinion, it's really not that different in terms of tactics and style. Only Glasgow - and sometimes the Scarlets - can really lay claim to the notion that they play more exciting/creative rugby than anything in the Premiership.

But all rugby has its place. Glasgow got hammered by Saracens' power; it's now up to Leinster to see what they can do.

Anyway, maybe watch some Premiership highlights once in a while. There are some good players and team out there - although I've found that the editing on those videos is often shocking. 20 seconds of watching a player lining up a kick, only the last 2 phases of a multi phase try etc. But anyway, it's free to watch on the internet, so...

Well said.

The English Premiership is a fantastic competition. I always watch the Friday night Premiership game instead of whatever dirge the Pro14 has to offer. And my team plays in the Pro14.

I think we can finally put the argument to be on what league is better, seeing as CVC assessed the English premiership as being 1.8 times more valuable than the Pro14.

You're not really a Scarlets fan though, are you?

6Ns is a bit different to the Pro14 with staggered kick-off times.

It's a 3 fixture weekend, over a short period of time, where nearly all viewers want to watch all games. Invariably, the staggering of the fixtures doesn't have too much bearing on the end result - where only really the title matters, if we're honest, in terms of serious jeopardy/the players going all out.

It fits in with the inherent 'unfair' nature of the tournament - 3:2 in terms of home:away fixtures, or vice versa; the run of fixtures, where you play Italy, who you play either side of the break weeks. The 6Ns an anomaly in that it isn't fair, but it works, as it's often reversed the season after as much as possible.

What you don't do is judge the 6Ns like you would a club/league competition as they're very different beasts. That would be very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very silly.

If nothing else, staggering the games seems to come from this desire to have derbies on the last week of the tournament, as if it 'maintains' interest right to the very end. I'm not really sure about that one bit. In Wales, you get the big day at the MS, so they've used the staggered games to cash in there.

But more than that, for the actual paying TV audience, what Leinster, Munster, or Glasgow fan is thinking: "right, fantastic, I've just seen my team confirm where they're going to be in the league - I cannot WAIT to sit back down and tune in to see what Zebre do against Treviso, or the Blues against the Ospreys! What riveting stuff!"

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
You're not really a Scarlets fan though, are you?

Eh?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
You're not really a Scarlets fan though, are you?

Eh?

You never post anything about them, even when they were making finals and winning a league. You never post about them in HC threads. You only ever post about how bad the pro14 is. Some fan..

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
You're not really a Scarlets fan though, are you?

Eh?

You never post anything about them, even when they were making finals and winning a league. You never post about them in HC threads. You only ever post about how bad the pro14 is. Some fan..

I post about the Scarlets on the Scarlets forum and Twitter etc etc. I barely post about Wales on the international sub forum here either. Are you going to accuse me of not being Welsh too?

Scenario 1
Leinster, Munster or Glasgow fan sits down to watch his team confirm where his team is going to finish in the league, then either goes out and carries on with his life or watches another team in the league, because he is a rugby fan and there are other games on

Scenario 2
Leinster, Munster or Glasgow fan sits down to watch his team confirm where his team is going to finish in the league, then has to carry on with his life because there is no rugby to watch as all the games are at the same time

Anyone who thinks that the Leinster, Munster or Glasgow fan is affected adversely in either scenario must be a massive massive massive massive massive massive massive clot

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
You're not really a Scarlets fan though, are you?

Eh?

You never post anything about them, even when they were making finals and winning a league. You never post about them in HC threads. You only ever post about how bad the pro14 is. Some fan..

I post about the Scarlets on the Scarlets forum and Twitter etc etc. I barely post about Wales on the international sub forum here either. Are you going to accuse me of not being Welsh too?

Wouldn't surprise me. I pop onto the Scarlets forum a bit and they don't half give out about the league between them all than you do here.

The Zebre v Benetton game is on after the Scarlets play.

Zebre and Benetton are owned by the same organisation. That organisation will know exactly who would benefit most form a win ....zebre or benetton?

That's just one example. An example that involves the team I support by the way. The Scarlets.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me. I pop onto the Scarlets forum a bit and they don't half give out about the league between them all than you do here.

As is their right. Perhaps you should try digesting some of it. You might then understand why we feel the way we do.

miaow wrote:6Ns is a bit different to the Pro14 with staggered kick-off times.

It's a 3 fixture weekend, over a short period of time, where nearly all viewers want to watch all games. Invariably, the staggering of the fixtures doesn't have too much bearing on the end result - where only really the title matters, if we're honest, in terms of serious jeopardy/the players going all out.

It fits in with the inherent 'unfair' nature of the tournament - 3:2 in terms of home:away fixtures, or vice versa; the run of fixtures, where you play Italy, who you play either side of the break weeks. The 6Ns an anomaly in that it isn't fair, but it works, as it's often reversed the season after as much as possible.

What you don't do is judge the 6Ns like you would a club/league competition as they're very different beasts. That would be very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very silly.

If nothing else, staggering the games seems to come from this desire to have derbies on the last week of the tournament, as if it 'maintains' interest right to the very end. I'm not really sure about that one bit. In Wales, you get the big day at the MS, so they've used the staggered games to cash in there.

But more than that, for the actual paying TV audience, what Leinster, Munster, or Glasgow fan is thinking: "right, fantastic, I've just seen my team confirm where they're going to be in the league - I cannot WAIT to sit back down and tune in to see what Zebre do against Treviso, or the Blues against the Ospreys! What riveting stuff!"

So because you wouldn't enjoy those games means others wouldn't?

The only derbies that need facilitated are the Welsh ones, seems everything is being designed to suit the Welsh then