Pro14 is dead...

First topic message reminder :

Well we are nearing the end of the normal season and going into the knock out stages, and thanks to Premier Sports I can know say with confidence that my earlier prediction has materialised and the day has killed the Pro14.

They promised 1 game on FreeSports every week. Well unless you follow Zebre or the Kings you’ve not had that game. The Ospreys have not had one game shown on FreeSports. As for free to air coverage on S4C that has also been hit or miss, with them banning the red button English cometary, and again covering games with little interest.

So , since the conception of the league, this is the first season I’ve not been able to follow with interest. No (little) live coverage of games, no magazine show I’ve been able to watch to keep up with the league. I’ve managed to get to minimum Ospreys home games this season, due to family commitments. Basically, only rugby I’ve been able to follow has been the 6 Nations.

Thanks, Pro14, you played a stormer selling out. Enjoy the cash injection it brought, as it won’t last...

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Zebre v Benetton game is on after the Scarlets play.

Zebre and Benetton are owned by the same organisation. That organisation will know exactly who would benefit most form a win ....zebre or benetton?

That's just one example. An example that involves the team I support by the way. The Scarlets.

So now there are accusations of match fixing?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me. I pop onto the Scarlets forum a bit and they don't half give out about the league between them all than you do here.

As is their right. Perhaps you should try digesting some of it. You might then understand why we feel the way we do.

You don't seem to understand the point I made there, anyway, Every argument has been countered numerous times let alone once. The same arguments have come up about the league ever since I joined the site.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me. I pop onto the Scarlets forum a bit and they don't half give out about the league between them all than you do here.

As is their right. Perhaps you should try digesting some of it. You might then understand why we feel the way we do.

You don't seem to understand the point I made there, anyway, Every argument has been countered numerous times let alone once. The same arguments have come up about the league ever since I joined the site.

Your initial point was that you don't think I am being honest when I say I am a Welsh Scarlets fan.

I can't make you believe anything.

But it's safe to say the denial and delusion on this site runs all the way up to being convinced people are lying about who they are on the internet to make a point. You're that deluded that you think I am prepared to do that.

Utterly tragic.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me. I pop onto the Scarlets forum a bit and they don't half give out about the league between them all than you do here.

As is their right. Perhaps you should try digesting some of it. You might then understand why we feel the way we do.

You don't seem to understand the point I made there, anyway, Every argument has been countered numerous times let alone once. The same arguments have come up about the league ever since I joined the site.

Your initial point was that you don't think I am being honest when I say I am a Welsh Scarlets fan.

I can't make you believe anything.

But it's safe to say the denial and delusion on this site runs all the way up to being convinced people are lying about who they are on the internet to make a point. You're that deluded that you think I am prepared to do that.

Utterly tragic.

No I don't think you are a fan because I've never seen a fan take such little interest in their team and spend so much time bashing a league their supposed team plays in. I think everyone recognises there are issues with the league, heck there's issues with every league across every sport but some of the things that are brought up here are comical to say the least.

Also most fans want to discuss how their team is doing, talk about the next game, transfers etc etc. You might try it sometime instead of this constant negativity.

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Zebre v Benetton game is on after the Scarlets play.

Zebre and Benetton are owned by the same organisation. That organisation will know exactly who would benefit most form a win ....zebre or benetton?

That's just one example. An example that involves the team I support by the way. The Scarlets.

If only the Scarlets had played 20 games already this season in which they could have made the result of an Italian derby 2 hours later than the Scarlets own final game a moot point. But no its the fault of the league

BamBam wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Zebre v Benetton game is on after the Scarlets play.

Zebre and Benetton are owned by the same organisation. That organisation will know exactly who would benefit most form a win ....zebre or benetton?

That's just one example. An example that involves the team I support by the way. The Scarlets.

If only the Scarlets had played 20 games already this season in which they could have made the result of an Italian derby 2 hours later than the Scarlets own final game a moot point. But no its the fault of the league

Well given Benetton are going in knowing a BP win guarantees them 3rd it's the same for them whenever the games are played especially as Edinburgh play after them

You've taken too many Bams to the head

Irish Londoner wrote:And as all the "PrO'14" threads have done we come around to the inevitable question "What do the Welsh want?"

Wales can't sustain a professional league of the standard of the PRO14 much less the Gallagher or Top14 internally so that's a non-starter.

The English don't want them, they dropped the AW cup and are moving towards ringfencing the Premiership and bringing in Welsh clubs ahead of any of the English side would cause mayhem.

I agree the "conference system" of the PRO14 as it stands is a bit confusing - I'd rather it became a formal two division competition with promotion/relegation between the two, might be possible when we get to a "PRO16" - two divisions of 8.

It seems that attendances in Wales are reasonably stable, the national team is doing great and there are games on FTA television, certainly a lot more than the Gallagher has, together with coverage of the regional league.

So what would improve things in Wales.

And a week later there's still no answer.

miaow wrote:You've taken too many Bams to the head

Whereas you could do with a few

marty2086 wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Zebre v Benetton game is on after the Scarlets play.

Zebre and Benetton are owned by the same organisation. That organisation will know exactly who would benefit most form a win ....zebre or benetton?

That's just one example. An example that involves the team I support by the way. The Scarlets.

If only the Scarlets had played 20 games already this season in which they could have made the result of an Italian derby 2 hours later than the Scarlets own final game a moot point. But no its the fault of the league

Well given Benetton are going in knowing a BP win guarantees them 3rd it's the same for them whenever the games are played especially as Edinburgh play after them

Personally I feel that the League should have resisted TV overtures and had all the games at the same time in the final round. 

However Benetton know exactly what they need to guarantee their progress irrelevant of what Scarlets do. As pointed out 5 points and they are in the 1/4 final, thus the main gripe seems to be that the Italians will fix the game. Probably best I do not express my contempt for this conspiracy theory.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:And as all the "PrO'14" threads have done we come around to the inevitable question "What do the Welsh want?"

Wales can't sustain a professional league of the standard of the PRO14 much less the Gallagher or Top14 internally so that's a non-starter.

The English don't want them, they dropped the AW cup and are moving towards ringfencing the Premiership and bringing in Welsh clubs ahead of any of the English side would cause mayhem.

I agree the "conference system" of the PRO14 as it stands is a bit confusing - I'd rather it became a formal two division competition with promotion/relegation between the two, might be possible when we get to a "PRO16" - two divisions of 8.

It seems that attendances in Wales are reasonably stable, the national team is doing great and there are games on FTA television, certainly a lot more than the Gallagher has, together with coverage of the regional league.

So what would improve things in Wales.

And a week later there's still no answer.

You won't get an answer either, they want to join the English but the English don't want that so basically anything other than that isn't good enough

LondonTiger wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:The Zebre v Benetton game is on after the Scarlets play.

Zebre and Benetton are owned by the same organisation. That organisation will know exactly who would benefit most form a win ....zebre or benetton?

That's just one example. An example that involves the team I support by the way. The Scarlets.

If only the Scarlets had played 20 games already this season in which they could have made the result of an Italian derby 2 hours later than the Scarlets own final game a moot point. But no its the fault of the league

Well given Benetton are going in knowing a BP win guarantees them 3rd it's the same for them whenever the games are played especially as Edinburgh play after them

Personally I feel that the League should have resisted TV overtures and had all the games at the same time in the final round. 

However Benetton know exactly what they need to guarantee their progress irrelevant of what Scarlets do. As pointed out 5 points and they are in the 1/4 final, thus the main gripe seems to be that the Italians will fix the game. Probably best I do not express my contempt for this conspiracy theory.

Who said it was to do with tv though?

Irish Londoner wrote:And a week later there's still no answer.

Wrong, there's an explanation a few pages back.

miaow wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:In Europe it was, which is what I said.

It was just a comment on the type. 'Lost more than they lost'.

No problem

miaow wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:And a week later there's still no answer.

Wrong, there's an explanation a few pages back.

There's a lot of stuff about how bad the refereeing is/how biased referees are against Welsh teams and how it's wrong that the competition is based in Ireland as this proves it's run for their benefit (hint: tax breaks), but nothing about what Welsh rugby actually needs to do to get people in and for it's teams to perform better.

Irish Londoner wrote:nothing about what Welsh rugby actually needs to do to get people in and for it's teams to perform better.

To get people in: It's nearly impossible. It's an unsellable league to Welsh rugby fans. You've been told this countless times. Even after the Scarlets won the thing, crowds waned again a few months on.

To perform better: The Welsh teams need bigger budgets. Like Leinster have.

I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

That would be interesting wouldn't it. If say the cap was introduced at £6.5m for next season.

Will never happen, as it would reveal too much about Irish rugby finances.

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not viable in the Pro 14

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not viable in the Pro 14

Why not ?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not viable in the Pro 14

Why not ?

Why can a wage cap not be introduced to govern across different contractual setups and different circumstances?

You do realise wage caps in other leagues are there to prevent overspending?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

That would be interesting wouldn't it. If say the cap was introduced at £6.5m for next season.

Will never happen, as it would reveal too much about Irish rugby finances.

What would it reveal exactly?

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:nothing about what Welsh rugby actually needs to do to get people in and for it's teams to perform better.

To get people in: It's nearly impossible. It's an unsellable league to Welsh rugby fans. You've been told this countless times. Even after the Scarlets won the thing, crowds waned again a few months on.

To perform better: The Welsh teams need bigger budgets. Like Leinster have.

The issue is not really the league though.

Welsh rugby is unable to support a purely domestic league. Having chosen to go down the "Regional" route there do seem to be more people watching professional club rugby than before the creation of the Celtic League. Attendances are a little higher now than at the start of the regions, but not by much. Glasgow and Edinburgh though have grown hugely in that time.

It is easy to blame the league. That is like politicians blaming immigrants/EU/US/any outsider when there are fundamental domestic issues. In the end until Welsh Club Rugby puts it's own house in order, there is no league in the world that could make things right.

2 of the 4 locations are not densely populated. Newport sort of are but it's 20 minutes away from Cardiff - it's basically a satellite town in many ways. That said, the biggest (average and overall) crowd attends the region located in the smallest town, by quite some margin. Why? Identity and history with Llanelli RFC, something they've done well to spread throughout Carmarthenshire, Pembrokeshire etc. in a way the other regions simply haven't (the clubs like Neath, Ponty etc. have to take some blame here). As well as recent success.

Packing in the crowds like Belfast and Dublin get is out of the question apart from in Cardiff and Swansea in the short term - however, those two have very good football teams in a way the Irish locations do not. Scotland does have the football thing - and see how their attendances mirror the Welsh. However, what they do have in their favour is much bigger populations to draw from (not just Gla and Edin but the surrounding towns as most of the country, approx 6m, lives there). They also aren't hampered by the fact Wales has DEEP localism in much of South Wales when it comes to rugby. Many fans have simply wound down supporting club rugby/gone hyper-local with their families, village clubs etc., and support Wales in internationals, instead of jumping 'up' to support a region. Scotland doesn't have this problem - nor does Ireland, by the looks of it, where the history has allowed for more successful 'regionalism' and a feeder team structure to occur. Blame colonialism and the fact most of Wales' settlements and infrastructure are built around exploitative industry, particularly in South Wales, rather than having at least SOME locations built harmoniously by and for the people (if you want that, go to the north/rural Wales i.e. tiny, tiny populations like Machynlleth, Bangor etc.).

Other posters need to realise this fundamental point. It's a socio-cultural one that seems utterly lost on people: the regions aren't like the Irish provinces in any identifiable sense.

Now, Cardiff has a population that absolutely should have built on the huge city they have. No excuses there. They still can - it just needs the blazers swept out and a modern business approach not steeped in amateurism and egotism to grow the region. That appears to tentatively happening now. Swansea have bigger issues but they could do it as well, as they showed in the early years of the Ospreys (although now the novelty's worn off/the football club's won a major trophy and got to th PL, it's hard to maintain the interest, it seems).

The first step is making the regions solvent. None of them are, really, but the Scarlets are best placed to simply through the fact they made a wonderful business decision pre-recession to build their own stadium. They're the only region of the 4 who owns their own stadium, so profits from concerts, shows etc. benefit them. The other 4 see no such profit. That is such an obvious thing.

Once they're financially stable (and that's the discussion going on now - there appears to be no sign of this happening soon and it's more about survival than stability) things go from there: making and building the teams that will compete on a regular basis with the Irish at their best, which happens sometimes, but in reality not nearly enough, and is getting worse. Winning teams will help build success and bring in a new set of fans less burdened by parochial bitterness towards the regions (although wouldn't count on it). But this is miles away from happening, as I said.

All in all, Welsh rugby has issues that papering over them doesn't really help - and the league feels like it's doing exactly that. Whatever happens to the structure of the rugby season - and it will be very different in 10 years' time, no doubt - Wales needs to make sure they've prioritised their existence as a major player, but it feels like that's not happening with the Pro14.

LondonTiger wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:nothing about what Welsh rugby actually needs to do to get people in and for it's teams to perform better.

To get people in: It's nearly impossible. It's an unsellable league to Welsh rugby fans. You've been told this countless times. Even after the Scarlets won the thing, crowds waned again a few months on.

To perform better: The Welsh teams need bigger budgets. Like Leinster have.

The issue is not really the league though.

Welsh rugby is unable to support a purely domestic league. Having chosen to go down the "Regional" route there do seem to be more people watching professional club rugby than before the creation of the Celtic League. Attendances are a little higher now than at the start of the regions, but not by much. Glasgow and Edinburgh though have grown hugely in that time.

It is easy to blame the league. That is like politicians blaming immigrants/EU/US/any outsider when there are fundamental domestic issues. In the end until Welsh Club Rugby puts it's own house in order, there is no league in the world that could make things right.

I agree about this. It's easier to look at what is (legitimately) hampering us from the outside, rather than sort the much bigger internal issues. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem with the league.

miaow wrote:All in all, Welsh rugby has issues that papering over them doesn't really help - and the league feels like it's doing exactly that. Whatever happens to the structure of the rugby season - and it will be very different in 10 years' time, no doubt - Wales needs to make sure they've prioritised their existence as a major player, but it feels like that's not happening with the Pro14.

I agree with the bold bits, but when it comes to the bits in italics I would say that it is not the Leagues job to fix the underlying domestic issues of any of the constituent Unions. I would argue that decisions are not being made by the League to favour any union over another - just that some Unions have developed more/quicker in the last decade.

miaow wrote:

The first step is making the regions solvent. None of them are, really, but the Scarlets are best placed to simply through the fact they made a wonderful business decision pre-recession to build their own stadium. They're the only region of the 4 who owns their own stadium, so profits from concerts, shows etc. benefit them. The other 4 see no such profit. That is such an obvious thing.

Once they're financially stable (and that's the discussion going on now - there appears to be no sign of this happening soon and it's more about survival than stability) things go from there: making and building the teams that will compete on a regular basis with the Irish at their best, which happens sometimes, but in reality not nearly enough, and is getting worse. Winning teams will help build success and bring in a new set of fans less burdened by parochial bitterness towards the regions (although wouldn't count on it). But this is miles away from happening, as I said.

The Scarlets, and other 3 regions could quite easily be solvent / sustainable or whatever term you want to call it. They just have to slash each of their wage budgets by c£1.5m per year. But they would then be the bottom 4 teams in the pro14. Then the crowds would be even worse than they are now. Then they would make even less money and attract fewer decent players. Then they would have an even worse team. And get worse and worse and worse.

LondonTiger wrote:

miaow wrote:All in all, Welsh rugby has issues that papering over them doesn't really help - and the league feels like it's doing exactly that. Whatever happens to the structure of the rugby season - and it will be very different in 10 years' time, no doubt - Wales needs to make sure they've prioritised their existence as a major player, but it feels like that's not happening with the Pro14.

I agree with the bold bits, but when it comes to the bits in italics I would say that it is not the Leagues job to fix the underlying domestic issues of any of the constituent Unions. I would argue that decisions are not being made by the League to favour any union over another - just that some Unions have developed more/quicker in the last decade.

Your last sentence is a contradiction of sorts. Because the league is owned by the Unions.

Guess which is the only pro14 nations teams that aren't owned by the Unions? Therefore, by definition, the league is set up BY and FOR, the owners of the Irish, Italian, Scottish, South African teams but not the Welsh teams.

miaow, just to add to your post, Wales has over three times the amount of rugby clubs that Ireland have with half the population.

People in Wales cannot be in two places at once, nor can they afford to be in two places at once. If you think about it, we are not just talking about the fans, we are talking about people who are part of each club as well.

Players aside, you will have wives, daughters, sons, mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, grandparents and volunteers who will all either go and watch their family or be part of the people organising the food or the kits and the what not.

Through all the age grades of each club, and the people playing, sometimes there must be at least 50+ people, perhaps more involved in each rugby club in Wales. Add all those people up, and that is three times the amount of people in Wales committed to rugby outside the regions, with half the population of Ireland.

These are people who would watch the regions on tele as well might I add, in the clubhouse or at home.

There are over three hundred rugby clubs in Wales, I would imagine that is a lot of people, there are currently 73,444 registered rugby players in Wales, and that is without all the people attached who are not playing. No wonder the regions cannot get huge crowds.

LondonTiger wrote:

miaow wrote:All in all, Welsh rugby has issues that papering over them doesn't really help - and the league feels like it's doing exactly that. Whatever happens to the structure of the rugby season - and it will be very different in 10 years' time, no doubt - Wales needs to make sure they've prioritised their existence as a major player, but it feels like that's not happening with the Pro14.

I agree with the bold bits, but when it comes to the bits in italics I would say that it is not the Leagues job to fix the underlying domestic issues of any of the constituent Unions. I would argue that decisions are not being made by the League to favour any union over another - just that some Unions have developed more/quicker in the last decade.

No, it's not. Which is why the criticisms are there from the Welsh as their teams (which have big issues) are playing in a cross-country league that is ambivalent to them and pro-Irish. The suspicion is (rightly or wrongly) were Wales to join up with England, not only would it make more sense logistically in terms of travel and support, it would also create better/deeper rivalries (I think the rivalry between Ireland and Wales since the Celtic League shows this to be true) with English clubs, but almost certainly more money as England is 'the' place where rugby stands the best chance of success. Anglo-centric world, as If said earlier. Whether that's feasible is a totally different point, but that's the frustration: throwing their lot in to a tournament that is poorer than what may have existed with England, and still treats one country more favourably than all the others.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

miaow wrote:

The first step is making the regions solvent. None of them are, really, but the Scarlets are best placed to simply through the fact they made a wonderful business decision pre-recession to build their own stadium. They're the only region of the 4 who owns their own stadium, so profits from concerts, shows etc. benefit them. The other 4 see no such profit. That is such an obvious thing.

Once they're financially stable (and that's the discussion going on now - there appears to be no sign of this happening soon and it's more about survival than stability) things go from there: making and building the teams that will compete on a regular basis with the Irish at their best, which happens sometimes, but in reality not nearly enough, and is getting worse. Winning teams will help build success and bring in a new set of fans less burdened by parochial bitterness towards the regions (although wouldn't count on it). But this is miles away from happening, as I said.

The Scarlets, and other 3 regions could quite easily be solvent / sustainable or whatever term you want to call it. They just have to slash each of their wage budgets by c£1.5m per year. But they would then be the bottom 4 teams in the pro14. Then the crowds would be even worse than they are now. Then they would make even less money and attract fewer decent players. Then they would have an even worse team. And get worse and worse and worse.

Yeah, I don't really call that sustainable...

Id happily swap the Welsh teams for some of the better SA sides. I think the Welsh sides will only be happy when they are part of the English leagues for some reason. Their loss.

LordDowlais wrote:miaow, just to add to your post, Wales has over three times the amount of rugby clubs that Ireland have with half the population.

People in Wales cannot be in two places at once, nor can they afford to be in two places at once. If you think about it, we are not just talking about the fans, we are talking about people who are part of each club as well.

Players aside, you will have wives, daughters, sons, mothers, fathers, uncles, aunts, grandparents and volunteers who will all either go and watch their family or be part of the people organising the food or the kits and the what not.  

Through all the age grades of each club, and the people playing, sometimes there must be at least 50+ people, perhaps more involved in each rugby club in Wales. Add all those people up, and that is three times the amount of people in Wales committed to rugby outside the regions, with half the population of Ireland.

These are people who would watch the regions on tele as well might I add, in the clubhouse or at home.

There are over three hundred rugby clubs in Wales, I would imagine that is a lot of people, there are currently 73,444 registered rugby players in Wales, and that is without all the people attached who are not playing. No wonder the regions cannot get huge crowds.

So Ireland has just over 100 rugby clubs?

https://www.irishrugby.ie/playing-the-game/club/club-map/

Then you have https://web.archive.org/web/20151017151754/http://www.gaa.ie/clubzone/club-info/membership/

Totally agree LD. Just because there are thousands of plastic Munster/Leinster fans all over Ireland (used to be Munster, now seems to be Leinster) that doesn't mean it's the same in Wales. The football crowds attract those sort of fans.

Collapse2005 wrote:Id happily swap the Welsh teams for some of the better SA sides. I think the Welsh sides will only be happy when they are part of the English leagues for some reason. Their loss.

I've enjoyed the regions playing the Irish teams. In the early days of the Celtic League it felt truly enjoyable. But the league's become bloated and messy - adding the Italians was good but they needed to progress quicker/better. Treviso were looking good in 2012/13 but then nearly went bust as the French and English teams demanded more favourable Heineken Cup terms (that's worked well...). It's a good sign that Treviso are developing again but, still, they seem to be packed with lots of project players: lots from the SH but also O'Shea's having his influence with the Italian team and bringing over a few Irish boys as well.

Now, with the SAs added, it's just a mess. Not clear, not consistent, anything but a 'good' league. 3 nations worked well - 5 doesn't. Look at Super Rugby. Messy.

That's not even considering the fact that one team in particular - Leinster - is so far ahead of any other team in the league in terms of infrastructure and budget. Leinster should not be in the same league as the Dragons or Zebre. It's just dense.

As it keeps being mentioned, how exactly does the pro14 favour the Irish?

miaow wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Id happily swap the Welsh teams for some of the better SA sides. I think the Welsh sides will only be happy when they are part of the English leagues for some reason. Their loss.

I've enjoyed the regions playing the Irish teams. In the early days of the Celtic League it felt truly enjoyable. But the league's become bloated and messy - adding the Italians was good but they needed to progress quicker/better. Treviso were looking good in 2012/13 but then nearly went bust as the French and English teams demanded more favourable Heineken Cup terms (that's worked well...). It's a good sign that Treviso are developing again but, still, they seem to be packed with lots of project players: lots from the SH but also O'Shea's having his influence with the Italian team and bringing over a few Irish boys as well.

Now, with the SAs added, it's just a mess. Not clear, not consistent, anything but a 'good' league. 3 nations worked well - 5 doesn't. Look at Super Rugby. Messy.

That's not even considering the fact that one team in particular - Leinster - is so far ahead of any other team in the league in terms of infrastructure and budget. Leinster should not be in the same league as the Dragons or Zebre. It's just dense.

I've no issue with the Italians being there. At least they are committed.

They have also been involved in the champions cup since its inception which is longer that the English and Scottish clubs and yet people constantly complain about them.

There is no reason why the bigger Welsh sides cant compete with Leinster. Leinster v Ospreys Pro14 final in 2012 was the greatest league club final in rugby history. Just shows you when they are arsed the Welsh sides can be good.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

That would be interesting wouldn't it. If say the cap was introduced at £6.5m for next season.

Will never happen, as it would reveal too much about Irish rugby finances.

What would it reveal - that Irish clubs pay more in wages than Welsh ones? Stop the press on that one!

In other news Saracens pay higher wages than Falcons......

Irish Londoner wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

That would be interesting wouldn't it. If say the cap was introduced at £6.5m for next season.

Will never happen, as it would reveal too much about Irish rugby finances.

What would it reveal - that Irish clubs pay more in wages than Welsh ones? Stop the press on that one!

In other news Saracens pay higher wages than Falcons......

Do they though? Or do Saracens just kindly buy houses for their players?

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not viable in the Pro 14

Why not ?

Why can a wage cap not be introduced to govern across different contractual setups and different circumstances?

You do realise wage caps in other leagues are there to prevent overspending?

What has different contractual setups got to do with anything ? The league can impose a cap, perhaps to make it more competitive. Would you be apposed to a salary cap in the Pro14 ?

miaow wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

miaow wrote:All in all, Welsh rugby has issues that papering over them doesn't really help - and the league feels like it's doing exactly that. Whatever happens to the structure of the rugby season - and it will be very different in 10 years' time, no doubt - Wales needs to make sure they've prioritised their existence as a major player, but it feels like that's not happening with the Pro14.

I agree with the bold bits, but when it comes to the bits in italics I would say that it is not the Leagues job to fix the underlying domestic issues of any of the constituent Unions. I would argue that decisions are not being made by the League to favour any union over another - just that some Unions have developed more/quicker in the last decade.

No, it's not. Which is why the criticisms are there from the Welsh as their teams (which have big issues) are playing in a cross-country league that is ambivalent to them and pro-Irish. The suspicion is (rightly or wrongly) were Wales to join up with England, not only would it make more sense logistically in terms of travel and support, it would also create better/deeper rivalries (I think the rivalry between Ireland and Wales since the Celtic League shows this to be true) with English clubs, but almost certainly more money as England is 'the' place where rugby stands the best chance of success. Anglo-centric world, as If said earlier. Whether that's feasible is a totally different point, but that's the frustration: throwing their lot in to a tournament that is poorer than what may have existed with England, and still treats one country more favourably than all the others.

The Welsh fans are bang on regarding this, they would have more money and probably more visiting fans if they played in the English League. On the other hand so would the Scottish and Irish clubs. Unfortunately no-one in Welsh rugby has offered a single reason (other than dewy eyed nostalgia for the amateur age, when Bath came over the bridge and played Cardiff, Ponty, Neath and Scarlets in the space of a week and the craic was mighty) as to what the English clubs would get out of the arrangement.

There are 4 Welsh club sides and one national side that feature in the exact same leagues and competitions as the Irish sides and fairly similar fan bases and therefore similar opportunities for earnings. If any rumours about Irish players getting paid more than Welsh players are true they it is only really evidence that Irish rugby is better managed than Welsh rugby rather than any inequity in how each set is treated. The odd exception to that is some Irish players have had their contracts sponsored by businessmen in the past but that is quite rare.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not viable in the Pro 14

Why not ?

Why can a wage cap not be introduced to govern across different contractual setups and different circumstances?

You do realise wage caps in other leagues are there to prevent overspending?

What has different contractual setups got to do with anything ? The league can impose a cap, perhaps to make it more competitive. Would you be apposed to a salary cap in the Pro14 ?

And of course if the salary cap was around where the Irish clubs are currently running at anyway the Welsh would all be on here complaining that Welsh teams can't afford to pay to the top of the cap. What you're really asking for is if the Irish wouldn't mind playing their players a lot less so that the Welsh teams might be more competitive.

Irish Londoner wrote:

miaow wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

miaow wrote:All in all, Welsh rugby has issues that papering over them doesn't really help - and the league feels like it's doing exactly that. Whatever happens to the structure of the rugby season - and it will be very different in 10 years' time, no doubt - Wales needs to make sure they've prioritised their existence as a major player, but it feels like that's not happening with the Pro14.

I agree with the bold bits, but when it comes to the bits in italics I would say that it is not the Leagues job to fix the underlying domestic issues of any of the constituent Unions. I would argue that decisions are not being made by the League to favour any union over another - just that some Unions have developed more/quicker in the last decade.

No, it's not. Which is why the criticisms are there from the Welsh as their teams (which have big issues) are playing in a cross-country league that is ambivalent to them and pro-Irish. The suspicion is (rightly or wrongly) were Wales to join up with England, not only would it make more sense logistically in terms of travel and support, it would also create better/deeper rivalries (I think the rivalry between Ireland and Wales since the Celtic League shows this to be true) with English clubs, but almost certainly more money as England is 'the' place where rugby stands the best chance of success. Anglo-centric world, as If said earlier. Whether that's feasible is a totally different point, but that's the frustration: throwing their lot in to a tournament that is poorer than what may have existed with England, and still treats one country more favourably than all the others.

The Welsh fans are bang on regarding this, they would have more money and probably more visiting fans if they played in the English League.  On the other hand so would the Scottish and Irish clubs. Unfortunately no-one in Welsh rugby has offered a single reason (other than dewy eyed nostalgia for the amateur age, when Bath came over the bridge and played Cardiff, Ponty, Neath and Scarlets in the space of a week and the craic was mighty) as to what the English clubs would get out of the arrangement.

I take it you cannot remember the old merit league ? There were constant fixtures between Welsh and English sides.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

That would be interesting wouldn't it. If say the cap was introduced at £6.5m for next season.

Will never happen, as it would reveal too much about Irish rugby finances.

Well it would reveal Ulster can fit under that cap - but the myth that somehow we pay 8/9 million will continue in some deluded heads.
And yes I am including CC's

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not viable in the Pro 14

Why not ?

Why can a wage cap not be introduced to govern across different contractual setups and different circumstances?

You do realise wage caps in other leagues are there to prevent overspending?

What has different contractual setups got to do with anything ? The league can impose a cap, perhaps to make it more competitive. Would you be apposed to a salary cap in the Pro14 ?

And of course if the salary cap was around where the Irish clubs are currently running at anyway the Welsh would all be on here complaining that Welsh teams can't afford to pay to the top of the cap. What you're really asking for is if the Irish wouldn't mind playing their players a lot less so that the Welsh teams might be more competitive.

No it would stop sides like Munster and Connacht spending more than what they earn.

If the Welsh think they have been taken advantage of by the Irish what makes them think that the English clubs would be offering fairer terms?

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not viable in the Pro 14

Why not ?

Why can a wage cap not be introduced to govern across different contractual setups and different circumstances?

You do realise wage caps in other leagues are there to prevent overspending?

What has different contractual setups got to do with anything ? The league can impose a cap, perhaps to make it more competitive. Would you be apposed to a salary cap in the Pro14 ?

Is that a serious question? You don't under stand that across the different countries within the Pro14 there are different contractual setups?

I can't support or oppose something I don't know the fictional details of

Do the Welsh regions still impose a cap on themselves? Did that make them more competitive amongst themselves?

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I wonder if there would ever be any opposition to a wage cap in the Pro14 ?

As has been pointed out numerous times, it's not viable in the Pro 14

Why not ?

Why can a wage cap not be introduced to govern across different contractual setups and different circumstances?

You do realise wage caps in other leagues are there to prevent overspending?

What has different contractual setups got to do with anything ? The league can impose a cap, perhaps to make it more competitive. Would you be apposed to a salary cap in the Pro14 ?

And of course if the salary cap was around where the Irish clubs are currently running at anyway the Welsh would all be on here complaining that Welsh teams can't afford to pay to the top of the cap. What you're really asking for is if the Irish wouldn't mind playing their players a lot less so that the Welsh teams might be more competitive.

No it would stop sides like Munster and Connacht spending more than what they earn.

How much more are they paying than they earn?

Irish Londoner wrote:

miaow wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

miaow wrote:All in all, Welsh rugby has issues that papering over them doesn't really help - and the league feels like it's doing exactly that. Whatever happens to the structure of the rugby season - and it will be very different in 10 years' time, no doubt - Wales needs to make sure they've prioritised their existence as a major player, but it feels like that's not happening with the Pro14.

I agree with the bold bits, but when it comes to the bits in italics I would say that it is not the Leagues job to fix the underlying domestic issues of any of the constituent Unions. I would argue that decisions are not being made by the League to favour any union over another - just that some Unions have developed more/quicker in the last decade.

No, it's not. Which is why the criticisms are there from the Welsh as their teams (which have big issues) are playing in a cross-country league that is ambivalent to them and pro-Irish. The suspicion is (rightly or wrongly) were Wales to join up with England, not only would it make more sense logistically in terms of travel and support, it would also create better/deeper rivalries (I think the rivalry between Ireland and Wales since the Celtic League shows this to be true) with English clubs, but almost certainly more money as England is 'the' place where rugby stands the best chance of success. Anglo-centric world, as If said earlier. Whether that's feasible is a totally different point, but that's the frustration: throwing their lot in to a tournament that is poorer than what may have existed with England, and still treats one country more favourably than all the others.

The Welsh fans are bang on regarding this, they would have more money and probably more visiting fans if they played in the English League.  On the other hand so would the Scottish and Irish clubs. Unfortunately no-one in Welsh rugby has offered a single reason (other than dewy eyed nostalgia for the amateur age, when Bath came over the bridge and played Cardiff, Ponty, Neath and Scarlets in the space of a week and the craic was mighty) as to what the English clubs would get out of the arrangement.

Easy points for the league table?

Other than that, the square root of feck all. They'd just be whining about not being able to watch on BBC Wales