EPCR Champions Cup Final

First topic message reminder :

Leinster Rugby  v  Saracens

Date: Sat 11 May 2019  17:00 (BST)
Venue: St James' Park


Leinster
15. Rob Kearney, 14. Jordan Larmour, 13. Garry Ringrose, 12. Robbie Henshaw, 11. James Lowe, 10. Johnny Sexton (c), 9. Luke McGrath, 1. Cian Healy, 2. Sean Cronin, 3. Tadhg Furlong, 4. Devin Toner, 5. James Ryan, 6. Scott Fardy, 7. Sean O'Brien, 8. Jack Conan.

Replacements: 16. James Tracy, 17. Jack McGrath, 18. Michael Bent, 19. Rhys Ruddock, 20. Max Deegan, 21. Hugh O'Sullivan, 22. Ross Byrne, 23. Rory O'Loughlin,


Saracens

15. Alex Goode, 14. Liam Williams, 13. Alex Lozowski, 12. Brad Barritt (c), 11. Sean Maitland, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Spencer, 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Jamie George, 3. Titi Lamositele, 4. Will Skelton, 5. George Kruis, 6. Maro Itoje, 7. Jackson Wray, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: 16. Joe Gray, 17. Richard Barrington, 18. Vincent Koch, 19. Nick Isiekwe, 20. Schalk Burger, 21. Richard Wigglesworth, 22. Nick Tompkins, 23. David Strettle,


Referee: Jérome Garcès (France)
AR1: Romain Poite (France)
AR2: Pascal Gauzère (France)
TMO: Philippe Bonhoure (France)

Broadcasters: BT Sport 2 / beIN SPORTS / FR2 / Channel 4 / Virgin Media

Sean OBrien was anonymous

Collapse2005 wrote:Sean OBrien was anonymous

Agree with that, he did not stand out at all.

It is looking a little bit like London Irish have paid an awful lot of money for a player who is looking more and more that he may be past his best.

O'Brien had a decent game against Toulouse but really he has looked a shadow of his once awesome self this season, unfortunately it looks like injuries and age have taken their toll.

He's still a good player but if Leavy and VDF are fit it would be hard to see him in the Leinster 23.

Rugby Fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:..The addition of Liam Williams has risen their back three play another notch. Scary to think Daly is going to be added to that back line next season.

I was just thinking that Daly doesn't quite fit the Saracens model. He wants to be in the centre but, for all his speed and skill, he isn't known for the kind of dog, and uncompromising tackling which you see from Barritt and Lozowski (or from Williams in the back three, for that matter). Perhaps he will develop that side of his game, or we could see Saracens try to tweak their game plan.

How good would it be for England if Saracens were able to retain his threat ball in hand but make him an agressive tackler and defence leader from 13?

I imagine theyll tweak the gameplan a little, and they have plenty of bosh in other positions

Collapse2005 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Great game but Leinster were just a little off our best and got a couple of unlucky breaks.Well done Sarries played some great stuff and were suffocating and aggressive in both attack and defense.

From a Leinster perspective we were close and could have won if we kicked it out for half time and took tje 5 on 2 overlap early in the 2nd half.  That's a 14 point  swing at a crucial time and kept Saracens in it when we could have killed them off.

We also had a certain 3 points when Wiliams made an illegal turnover in front of the posts, Kearney should never have been pinged for the penalty that led to the first try he was trapped by the Sarries players and Williams made a knock on before the penalty and yellow card to Fardy. Small things and Saracens can probably point to similar decisions that went against them but if one or two of these go our way it would have been a different game.

We were close but needed to be a little better to get it done.

Yeah I also thought the penalty on Kearney was very soft

Clutching and straws lads. Not even close

Expert analysis there,thanks for your input.

rodders wrote:O'Brien had a decent game against Toulouse but really he has looked a shadow of his once awesome self this season, unfortunately it looks like injuries and age have taken their toll.

He's still a good player but if Leavy and VDF are fit it would be hard to see him in the Leinster 23.  

They probably should have started Ruddock ahead of him.

As a neutral, I thought it was a pretty brutal, intense affair - in a good way.

The Saracens defence was in Leinster's faces, and I thought that the result went the right way.

From an England perspective (for I am English), I thought Kruis and Billy were outstanding. As a former back rower I loved Billy's try. You knew what he was going to do, and couldn't stop him regardless. Great stuff.

Also, how good is Liam Williams? Best FB in the NH by a distance, I would contend.

Yeah Williams is class as was Billy V.

That's was a more comfortable win than the score suggest.

Leinster were on their knees for the last 20 mins

geoff999rugby wrote:That's was a more comfortable win than the score suggest.

Leinster were on their knees for the last 20 mins

Leinster were attacking for at least 10 of the last 20 minutes, they just couldnt get through.

Because they were physically second best and losing collisions ever time

geoff999rugby wrote:Because they were physically second best and losing collisions ever time

That's true. I think the first half was about even Stevens and Sarries won the second both on the score board and every which way which a 20-10 scoreline reflects more or less bang on.

I think Leavy would have made a difference as O'Brien has been non-existent this year. Good enough final.

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:That's was a more comfortable win than the score suggest.

Leinster were on their knees for the last 20 mins

Leinster were attacking for at least 10 of the last 20 minutes, they just couldnt get through.

Yeah I'm kind off with Geoff, Saracens definitely upped the anti in the last 15 min and Leinster looked out on their feet. They got on top of Leinsters scrum once Furlong went off and the weight of the collisions, which was pretty even up to then, seemed to take their toll.

Once they got the 2 score lead Sarries looked well in control and comfortable defending. That said if Leinster had of retained their lead at half time the game might have been different and they wouldn't have been forced to play out of their own half.

Sarries bench made a difference too, whereas Leinster looked weaker when Bent, Tracy etc. came on.

Physically Saracens just seem on a different level, like Toulon a few seasons ago, for example James Lowe has looked unplayable this season and he caused them no problems at all and the ease with which Billy V blasted over Ruddock, Sexton and McGrath was frightening.

Both these sides seem a different level to the rest of Europe, it's hard to see anyone else challenging next season.

So glad the salary cap abusers beat the Irish super power.

BigGee wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Sean OBrien was anonymous

Agree with that, he did not stand out at all.

It is looking a little bit like London Irish have paid an awful lot of money for a player who is looking more and more that he may be past his best.

I always thought SOB was massively over rated by the Irish, for years he was hanging on to that performance against Australia in the world cup. I have never really seen him be that much of a game changer and far too often went missing in big games, especially at international level.

TightHEAD wrote:So glad the salary cap abusers beat the Irish super power.

That is one way to look at it. You could also look at the way both teams have developed based primarily on a very strong academy.  If spending money was the only reason for success then Bath and Montpelier (among others) would have been a threat.

Now of course Bath have a decent academy, just a shame it is called London Irish.

LordDowlais wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Sean OBrien was anonymous

Agree with that, he did not stand out at all.

It is looking a little bit like London Irish have paid an awful lot of money for a player who is looking more and more that he may be past his best.

I always thought SOB was massively over rated by the Irish, for years he was hanging on to that performance against Australia in the world cup. I have never really seen him be that much of a game changer and far too often went missing in big games, especially at international level.

He did score "that try" for the Lions, mind you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szt6CBoQ0zY

LordDowlais wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:Sean OBrien was anonymous

Agree with that, he did not stand out at all.

It is looking a little bit like London Irish have paid an awful lot of money for a player who is looking more and more that he may be past his best.

I always thought SOB was massively over rated by the Irish, for years he was hanging on to that performance against Australia in the world cup. I have never really seen him be that much of a game changer and far too often went missing in big games, especially at international level.

Not just the Irish, Richie McCaw also rated him very highly:
https://www.the42.ie/sean-obrien-tough-ireland-argentina-4332079-Nov2018/

and NZ reporters:
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/sean-obrien-lions-127053
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11751745 "scarcely believable Sean O'Brien"

and Gatland to select him for 5 Lions tests from a possible 6. I mean if the Wales head coach who was notorious for selecting Welsh guys over other nationalities picks him surely that tells you all you need to know?

Maybe its just you who didnt rate him?

SOB has been a great player, no doubt about it. No shame that age and injury are catching up on him after all that he has done for Leinster and Ireland.

yappysnap wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

king_carlos wrote:..The addition of Liam Williams has risen their back three play another notch. Scary to think Daly is going to be added to that back line next season.

I was just thinking that Daly doesn't quite fit the Saracens model. He wants to be in the centre but, for all his speed and skill, he isn't known for the kind of dog, and uncompromising tackling which you see from Barritt and Lozowski (or from Williams in the back three, for that matter). Perhaps he will develop that side of his game, or we could see Saracens try to tweak their game plan.

How good would it be for England if Saracens were able to retain his threat ball in hand but make him an agressive tackler and defence leader from 13?

I imagine theyll tweak the gameplan a little, and they have plenty of bosh in other positions

I've been thinking this too. Saracens also have Tompkins who I rate really highly. I just don't see where Daly fits at the moment, unless they see him as a winger which I really doubt. If he is played in the centre and therefore reduces Lozowski or Tompkin's playing time, I could see one of them moving on.

And malins could.find himself down the pecking order if they decide Goode is good enough cover at fly half.

Saracens were the better side and deserved the victory. Didn't think Leinster played smart at all. Saracens looked like they had another gear in them if it ever was going to be required. Fair dues on a pretty exceptional run throughout the entire competition.

TightHEAD wrote:So glad the salary cap abusers beat the Irish super power.

A backhanded compliment for you Leinster folk from Tight-head, the most unlikely of sources.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And malins could.find himself down the pecking order if they decide Goode is good enough cover at fly half.

You might be right, he could get himself into a Jamie George situation where Sarries don't properly trust him as first choice until he is into his mid/late 20s. He probably wouldn't be starting fly half/ full back at most Premiership clubs just yet, but if he waits too long he risks missing the boat. Perhaps Wasps would be a good fit with Willie Le Roux heading to Japan? Gopperth must be getting on now and Sapoaga doesn't seem to be hitting his straps. Maybe Sale? Their squad is very small.

Just thinking aloud.

TBH we could use Malins. With Ford away he would get plenty of game time or could play FB. I woudl be worried by his goal kicking though.

Im sure we could find a place for Malins....and he'd love this great little city of ours...

Cumbrian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:And malins could.find himself down the pecking order if they decide Goode is good enough cover at fly half.

You might be right, he could get himself into a Jamie George situation where Sarries don't properly trust him as first choice until he is into his mid/late 20s.  He probably wouldn't be starting fly half/ full back at most Premiership clubs just yet, but if he waits too long he risks missing the boat.  Perhaps Wasps would be a good fit with Willie Le Roux heading to Japan? Gopperth must be getting on now and Sapoaga doesn't seem to be hitting his straps.  Maybe Sale? Their squad is very small.

Just thinking aloud.

We (Wasps) have recruited pretty well to cover WLR leaving, in Minozzi, the Italian FB. Gopps is 34, I think, and you're right about Sopoaga, but we've got a lad called Billy Seale who played pretty well when he featured this season, before it ending prematurely with a nasty broken ankle. Assuming Searle and Gopps get and stay fit, and Sopoaga beds in (his pal Malakai Fekitoa rocking up next season might help), then I think FH is one area we're reasonably secure in. We've got Jacob Umaga in the academy too, and I think he's looked good when I've seen him.

It was a great final, hard fought and the better team won so congrats to Sarries.

Kruis was absolutely outstanding, he is some player.

For me though, Leinster were well in the game but as soon as Cronin went off, just lost that bit extra up front.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Expert analysis there,thanks for your input.

True. I just read Neil Francis. It was the refs fault

Got to love Goode's three day celebration, in full kit throughout.

Good lad!

Rinsure wrote:Got to love Goode's three day celebration, in full kit throughout.

Good lad!

Any links?

Just Google him and a plethora of stories.

Jees he really is happy with the win

Celebrate the win, learn from the losses. Simple mantra, but one Sarries have deeply instilled in their DNA

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Expert analysis there,thanks for your input.

True. I just read Neil Francis. It was the refs fault

The motto of a Munster fan.

Cheeky