Political round up.............

First topic message reminder :

Soft thread split, hard thread split, no-deal thread split. Who gives a sh!t as long as we get a thread split by the 15:35 deadline.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Parliament doesn't need to back no-deal for it to happen. It'll happen automatically on October 31st, as per Article 50, which MPs long ago voted to trigger.

True but if No Deal looks highly imminent I am presuming Labour will roll out their vote of no confidence in the government but cannot see that will happen in time to prevent a No Deal Brexit. Running down of the clock has been the Tories game all along hence multiple attempts to get May's Deal through despite it being crystal clear it had no chance of being accepted. No Deal is exactly the same but if time runs out then it will happen.

Which will be defeated. One thing guaranteed to have the Tories/DUP rally round, and that's Labour trying that dull gambit.

Just finished Robert Peston's most recent book, "WTF?"; pretty interesting read and analysis of where we are now. Think he hits an awful lot of nails, smack, bang on their heads.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Parliament doesn't need to back no-deal for it to happen. It'll happen automatically on October 31st, as per Article 50, which MPs long ago voted to trigger.

True but if No Deal looks highly imminent I am presuming Labour will roll out their vote of no confidence in the government but cannot see that will happen in time to prevent a No Deal Brexit. Running down of the clock has been the Tories game all along hence multiple attempts to get May's Deal through despite it being crystal clear it had no chance of being accepted. No Deal is exactly the same but if time runs out then it will happen.

Which will be defeated. One thing guaranteed to have the Tories/DUP rally round, and that's Labour trying that dull gambit.

Yes I would agree with that. But that just demonstrates how the Tories will put party interests first even before something like preventing a No Deal Brexit.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Parliament doesn't need to back no-deal for it to happen. It'll happen automatically on October 31st, as per Article 50, which MPs long ago voted to trigger.

True but if No Deal looks highly imminent I am presuming Labour will roll out their vote of no confidence in the government but cannot see that will happen in time to prevent a No Deal Brexit. Running down of the clock has been the Tories game all along hence multiple attempts to get May's Deal through despite it being crystal clear it had no chance of being accepted. No Deal is exactly the same but if time runs out then it will happen.

Which will be defeated. One thing guaranteed to have the Tories/DUP rally round, and that's Labour trying that dull gambit.

Yes I would agree with that. But that just demonstrates how the Tories will put party interests first even before something like preventing a No Deal Brexit.

What do you expect? No other party would be any different. It's the standard of politicians we have to put up with.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Parliament doesn't need to back no-deal for it to happen. It'll happen automatically on October 31st, as per Article 50, which MPs long ago voted to trigger.

True but if No Deal looks highly imminent I am presuming Labour will roll out their vote of no confidence in the government but cannot see that will happen in time to prevent a No Deal Brexit. Running down of the clock has been the Tories game all along hence multiple attempts to get May's Deal through despite it being crystal clear it had no chance of being accepted. No Deal is exactly the same but if time runs out then it will happen.

Which will be defeated. One thing guaranteed to have the Tories/DUP rally round, and that's Labour trying that dull gambit.

Yes I would agree with that. But that just demonstrates how the Tories will put party interests first even before something like preventing a No Deal Brexit.

What do you expect? No other party would be any different. It's the standard of politicians we have to put up with.

Ordinarily, I would absolutely agree but Brexit and the prospect of a No Deal Brexit is extraordinary and wholly this situation is a construct of the Tories. Cameron's Tory government asked for the Brexit Referendum and it was one he lost and the die was cast. May's Tory government tied itself into knots and was unable to get a deal agreed and now Johnson's Tory government is positively salivating at the prospect of a No Deal Brexit. Many in the know (some are even Tory MP's) are warning of the disaster a No Deal Brexit would be but regardless the Tories will do what they want as long as they keep the keys to No 10 and to hell with the country's future. In my lifetime I have seen far less incompetent governments kicked out of office than this one. What a wholesomely unmitigated mess we are in.

I don't think Boris will let No Deal Brexit happen, he knows it would be a disaster which would finish his political career and the Conservative hopes for generations to come.

It Must Be Love wrote:I don't think Boris will let No Deal Brexit happen, he knows it would be a disaster which would finish his political career and the Conservative hopes for generations to come.

It's a given. BJ has already said he intends on ripping up the backstop agreement. The EU have already stated the backstop will be at the heart of any deals struck. Result? No Deal Brexit.

It Must Be Love wrote:I don't think Boris will let No Deal Brexit happen, he knows it would be a disaster which would finish his political career and the Conservative hopes for generations to come.

Bit in bold - no it won't.  Politically he has to bring Brexit into effect. If it is a NO DEAL then he needs to find someone to blame for it - and he can just point to the intransigence of the EU and the dithering of Parliament.  David Cameron put Brexit on the table in his 2015 General Election campaign - many conservative voters voted conservative because they wanted to be out of the EU - deal or no deal.  

Anyway it doesn't matter whether Boris Johnson's political career would be ruined or not - it would be completely irrelevant to those not wanting Brexit - because we would have Brexit and a no deal - and we will all have to adapt and get on with things - rather than sitting on our chairs and pointing fingers and getting into fisticuffs.

No name Bertie wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:I don't think Boris will let No Deal Brexit happen, he knows it would be a disaster which would finish his political career and the Conservative hopes for generations to come.

Bit in bold - no it won't.  Politically he has to bring Brexit into effect. If it is a NO DEAL then he needs to find someone to blame for it - and he can just point to the intransigence of the EU and the dithering of Parliament.  David Cameron put Brexit on the table in his 2015 General Election campaign - many conservative voters voted conservative because they wanted to be out of the EU - deal or no deal.  

Anyway it doesn't matter whether Boris Johnson's political career would be ruined or not - it would be completely irrelevant to those not wanting Brexit - because we would have Brexit and a no deal - and we will all have to adapt and get on with things - rather than sitting on our chairs and pointing fingers and getting into fisticuffs.

That works two ways though as in if BJ and his cronies had perhaps rallied behind May's Deal and not voted against it then Brexit would already have been completed so he must accept responsibility.

It Must Be Love wrote:I don't think Boris will let No Deal Brexit happen, he knows it would be a disaster which would finish his political career and the Conservative hopes for generations to come.

The alternative is to remain in the EU, which would finish his political career and destroy the Conservative Party.

Duty281 wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:I don't think Boris will let No Deal Brexit happen, he knows it would be a disaster which would finish his political career and the Conservative hopes for generations to come.

The alternative is to remain in the EU, which would finish his political career and destroy the Conservative Party.

Nah, he will eventually threaten Tory MPs enough to get May's withdrawal agreement (lipstick added) through parliament.

I think tactically it would be better for Boris to try and get May's deal passed before an election. With a small majority, he can tell the Brexiters, 'you either vote this deal through, or I lose a vote of no confidence where Corbyn could become PM and block Brexit completely'.

Let's say come November 1st Britain finds itself outside of the EU with a no deal (this is often raised as the worst case scenario).

The political reality would be Britain is now "alone" and outside the EU.   The question arises under those circumstances what would happen politically in parliament and what would voters do?

I think under those circumstances it is very likely the conservative party would rally around Boris Johnson and his cabinet - with the view that under these political circumstances it would be better to get on with things - driving Britain forward under these new circumstances.

The Labour Party would probably split - with knives out for Jeremy Corbyn who in this entire process has appeared vague in his position.

The conservative voters who had shifted to the Brexit Party and UKIP because of May's failure to implement Brexit will likely flock back to the conservative party and the conservative party will strengthen in the polls.

Labour voters and LibDem voters who were remainers will probably be disenchanted, dejected and less likely to vote.

Right, but then the economy crashes, and UK has no leverage with WTO terms. So Boris then has a choice: prolong the recession by sticking to No Deal, or admit the whole thing was a bluff gone awry and submit to May's withdrawal agreement.

Conservatives' main pitch to voters is a strong economy. That message would be in shreds. Labour would say you can't trust the Tories with the economy, we would have pursued a sensible middle ground of a soft Brexit. Assuming Lib Dems get around 25 seats in the next election, and SNP 45 seats, Labour only need 260 seats for Corbyn to be PM with confidence and supply deal with 2 smaller parties.

It Must Be Love wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:I don't think Boris will let No Deal Brexit happen, he knows it would be a disaster which would finish his political career and the Conservative hopes for generations to come.

The alternative is to remain in the EU, which would finish his political career and destroy the Conservative Party.

Nah, he will eventually threaten Tory MPs enough to get May's withdrawal agreement (lipstick added) through parliament.

I think tactically it would be better for Boris to try and get May's deal passed before an election. With a small majority, he can tell the Brexiters, 'you either vote this deal through, or I lose a vote of no confidence where Corbyn could become PM and block Brexit completely'.

Boris has virtually zero chance of losing a vote of no confidence as all Tory and DUP MPs would vote against such a motion (some of the independents might too!). Equally, Theresa tried the old trick of threatening Tory MPs and applying sweeteners to the deal with no actual success, only a number of hurtful failures. And we all know the EU won't shift substantially on the withdrawal agreement any further, which is fair enough.

Duty281 wrote:
Boris has virtually zero chance of losing a vote of no confidence as all Tory and DUP MPs would vote against such a motion (some of the independents might too!).

If Boris was going for No Deal, then all you need is 1-2 Tory MPs (Stewart, Gawke Clarke, Hammond?) to vote the government down. Boris could argue to the ERG, that if he went for No Deal there would be an immediate election, possibly followed by Corbyn winning in a confidence and supply with Lib Dem/SNP. They could get in and then undo Brexit completely. That could scare the ERG into voting through May's deal.

Duty281 wrote:Equally, Theresa tried the old trick of threatening Tory MPs and applying sweeteners to the deal with no actual success, only a number of hurtful failures. And we all know the EU won't shift substantially on the withdrawal agreement any further, which is fair enough.

Good question: Why can Boris do that when May couldn't? Because the ERG have less leverage with Boris. The next Tory leader is unlikely to be more pro hard-Brexit than Boris (Raab, JRM are both unlikely to reach the final 2 of next Tory leadership contest). So if ERG sabotage Boris they'll probably be left with Gove, who is more moderate on Brexit. So they really have no option.

On the other hand, it looks like Boris may be the victim of his own success in recent polls. Polls today showing Tories in the clear lead over Labour. ERG could say: 'fine we'll take the risk of having government voted down in no confidence along with No Deal, and then in GE we'll win majority along with DUP/Brexit Party. You'll have a mandate to stay on WTO terms with no trade deal with EU.' The question is, would ERG risk Brexit completely just to get No Deal through over May's deal?

Boris getting the vote back from Farage..

Every poll...

Con +10...Brexit -10
Con +7.....Brexit -7
Con +3....Brexit -3

Probably won't need a pact..

The expected poll bounce. Now Johnson can deliver a no-deal Brexit on October 31st and finish off the Brexit Party for good.

Anything is possible...

Surprised with their new leader the Lib Dems didn't bounce..

Must be a disappointment..

Duty281 wrote:

It Must Be Love wrote:I don't think Boris will let No Deal Brexit happen, he knows it would be a disaster which would finish his political career and the Conservative hopes for generations to come.

The alternative is to remain in the EU, which would finish his political career and destroy the Conservative Party.

Another positive to the Remain option. They stack up pretty high, don't they?

Duty281 wrote:The expected poll bounce. Now Johnson can deliver a no-deal Brexit on October 31st and finish off the Brexit Party for good.

And ruin the country for the next 20 years.

I see that Gove is basically admitting Bojo can't do what he said he could i.e. get a better deal. The first in a long line of failed promises.

JuliusHMarx wrote:I see that Gove is basically admitting Bojo can't do what he said he could i.e. get a better deal. The first in a long line of failed promises.

Of course.

It isn't rocket science. BJ has already gone on record that he will rip up the Backstop Agreement whereas the EU have always said that is a must for any agreement - the backstop. No Deal Brexit is what BJ craves with every breath in his body and it is what he will get.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:The expected poll bounce. Now Johnson can deliver a no-deal Brexit on October 31st and finish off the Brexit Party for good.

And ruin the country for the next 20 years.

That's the spirit.

CaledonianCraig wrote:No Deal Brexit is what BJ craves with every breath in his body and it is what he will get.

Lolz.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:The expected poll bounce. Now Johnson can deliver a no-deal Brexit on October 31st and finish off the Brexit Party for good.

And ruin the country for the next 20 years.

That's the spirit.

Better to be realistic than make promises that can't be kept or pretend all will be great when the evidence is overwhelmingly against that.
A pie-in-the-sky, British bulldog approach does no-one any favours.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Anything is possible...

Surprised with their new leader the Lib Dems didn't bounce..

Must be a disappointment..

No-one knows who she is. Problematic.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:The expected poll bounce. Now Johnson can deliver a no-deal Brexit on October 31st and finish off the Brexit Party for good.

And ruin the country for the next 20 years.

That's the spirit.

Better to be realistic than make promises that can't be kept or pretend all will be great when the evidence is overwhelmingly against that.
A pie-in-the-sky, British bulldog approach does no-one any favours.

Substitute dog for something else on the end of bull and you are much closer to the mark.

...... winkle?

SecretFly wrote: ...... winkle?

No. The clue is Boris is full of it.

SecretFly wrote: ...... winkle?

I was gonna go with "shark" myself, but I like your take on it...

...... cojones?

No name Bertie wrote:...... cojones?

Bull cojones? New saying on me that one.

CaledonianCraig wrote: ... No Deal Brexit is what BJ craves with every breath in his body and it is what he will get.

I disagree - he doesn't want a No Deal Brexit - but he is being realistic and reckons the EU are not going to allow any renegotiation of the failed May deal.

Anyway, as I have mentioned, I don't want Brexit - I think we should stay in or go for a phased withdrawal beginning with a full customs union.  I think in hindsight it seems clear to me the political system failed us as well as the media failed us in the period before and during the running of the EU Referendum - and the result was voided with David Cameron's resignation and the fall of his government. There was a certain irresponsibility in the whole process.

No name Bertie wrote:
Anyway, as I have mentioned, I don't want Brexit - I think we should stay in or go for a phased withdrawal beginning with a full customs union.  

Agree with this, a moderate brexit is the only realistic way forward while respecting democracy.

No name Bertie wrote:
I think in hindsight it seems clear to me the political system failed us as well as the media failed us in the period before and during the running of the EU Referendum - and the result was voided with David Cameron's resignation and the fall of his government.  There was a certain irresponsibility in the whole process.

I don't understand why you still believe that Cameron resigning meant the Brexit result was voided.
He had already announced in 2015 that he would resign before the next general election. The referendum loss fast tracked his already planned resignation, as he felt he wouldn't have the credibility or authority to continue as PM (he would have bumped into the same problems as May, derided as a Remainer trying to achieve Brexit). Then in 2017 an election took place where parties who advocated Brexit got 80% of the vote. I don't see anything which has voided it.

No name Bertie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote: ... No Deal Brexit is what BJ craves with every breath in his body and it is what he will get.

I disagree - he doesn't want a No Deal Brexit - but he is being realistic and reckons the EU are not going to allow any renegotiation of the failed May deal.

If he doesn't actually want it, then I certainly don't think he'll put much effort into avoiding it. Partly because he seems to think everything will be OK because we're British (Huzzah!) and partly because he doesn't care two hoots about those who will be worse hit.
All his talk of a 'golden age' is ridiculous, but there are plenty of people who would still support him if he said unicorns would roam wild in the hills and there would be faeries at the end of every garden.

David Cameron never said he would resign before the next general election - that was Theresa May? David Cameron said he would accept the decision and deliver Brexit if that was what the public wanted. Instead he and his government resigned. He was elected on the basis of giving the public an in / out vote. I can't remember why he decided to have an EU Referendum as part of his manifesto pledge - but it later transpired it was internal machinations within the Tory party.

Overall I think there was a lack of information given to the public regarding what everything meant, the extent to which Britain is enmeshed within the EU, an oversimplification of the debate, too much of a focus on personalities, what was required in terms of preparation and infrastructure if Britain was to come out of the EU, Britains preparedness to deal with Brexit ...

Many people were just assuming that David Cameron knew what he was doing when he gave the public a choice. When he and his government resigned - then we realised he didn't know what he was doing - he was gambling - he had cheated the public by making the public believe he knew what he was doing, that Brexit was something easy to implement ...

JuliusHMarx wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote: ... No Deal Brexit is what BJ craves with every breath in his body and it is what he will get.

I disagree - he doesn't want a No Deal Brexit - but he is being realistic and reckons the EU are not going to allow any renegotiation of the failed May deal.

If he doesn't actually want it, then I certainly don't think he'll put much effort into avoiding it. Partly because he seems to think everything will be OK because we're British (Huzzah!) and partly because he doesn't care two hoots about those who will be worse hit.
All his talk of a 'golden age' is ridiculous, but there are plenty of people who would still support him if he said unicorns would roam wild in the hills and there would be faeries at the end of every garden.  

Maybe you and Caledonian Craig are right - if Theresa May's deal was rejected only because he and the Tory "Brexiters" rejected it - then yes it seems he would prefer a no deal to May's deal. So I would stand corrected.

No name Bertie wrote:David Cameron never said he would resign before the next general election - that was Theresa May?  

Yes he did. He said in the build up to the 2015 election that even if he won he would resign before the next one.

No name Bertie wrote:David Cameron said he would accept the decision and deliver Brexit if that was what the public wanted.  Instead he and his government resigned.

 
I think most political commentators and close observers realised that Cameron had no choice but to resign if he lost the EU ref. However, even if you didn't anticipate that, the decision of a remain voting PM to resign shouldn't void the fact the majority of the country voted to Leave.

No name Bertie wrote:Overall I think there was a lack of information given to the public regarding what everything meant, the extent to which Britain is enmeshed within the EU, an oversimplification of the debate, too much of a focus on personalities, what was required in terms of preparation and infrastructure if Britain was to come out of the EU, Britains preparedness to deal with Brexit ...

On this, I couldn't have put it better myself. Oversimplification and misinformation has been rampant.
During the EU ref, Brexit politicians were horrified at the accusation that we would crash out of the EU without a deal, they insisted we would get a deal and Farage continuously cited Norway as a successful model of a country outside the EU.
Now, Brexiters are insisting that only a No Deal is a pure Brexit, and accusing those advocating a Norway style deal (as farage praised during ref) of treachery.
The media can't effectively call it out, as it's completely partisan. Each side has been fine-tuned to ignore opposing viewpoints and regurgitate those who we already agree with. The most hysterical tend to get more media coverage (whether it's Lammy or Francois), and slowly the objective truth is bring irrelevant.

No name Bertie wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

No name Bertie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote: ... No Deal Brexit is what BJ craves with every breath in his body and it is what he will get.

I disagree - he doesn't want a No Deal Brexit - but he is being realistic and reckons the EU are not going to allow any renegotiation of the failed May deal.

If he doesn't actually want it, then I certainly don't think he'll put much effort into avoiding it. Partly because he seems to think everything will be OK because we're British (Huzzah!) and partly because he doesn't care two hoots about those who will be worse hit.
All his talk of a 'golden age' is ridiculous, but there are plenty of people who would still support him if he said unicorns would roam wild in the hills and there would be faeries at the end of every garden.  

Maybe you and Caledonian Craig are right - if Theresa May's deal was rejected only because he and the Tory "Brexiters" rejected it - then yes it seems he would prefer a no deal to May's deal.  So I would stand corrected.

It is crystal clear he wants a No Deal.

Not convinced?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/28/boris-johnson-brexit-qa-can-he-force-through-no-deal

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-vows-no-deal-brexit-by-any-means-necessary-55tjljkfw

CaledonianCraig wrote:
It is crystal clear he wants a No Deal.

Not convinced?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/28/boris-johnson-brexit-qa-can-he-force-through-no-deal

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnson-vows-no-deal-brexit-by-any-means-necessary-55tjljkfw

Boris doesn't give a Poopie about Brexit, forget supporting specific types of Brexit. He'll do what he perceives to be best for his career. If someone manages to drill into him that No Deal Brexit will cause an economic collapse and end his premiership, he'll slither away from that position. Maybe him and his thug sidekick Gavin Williamson will start threatening the ERG to submit. Let's hope so!

Okay I didn't know about the "ERG" - I have just found out it is a "party within a party". It all seems a bit worrying - cloak and dagger politics.

Going even by posts here, it's clear that already many if not most observers both in the UK and in Europe believe Boris Johnson is much more serious about the prospect of a No Deal than was ever believed by 'Peace in our Time' repeat offender Theresa May.
So already a different dynamic scented in the air.... the arrogant certainty drains from the EU politburo.  They know the bully tactics won't work this time.  
Hmmmmm..... they might even have to consider actually Negotiating in the next round of Negotiations.   The shock of it all!  Those ungrateful Brits no longer want to obey the rule of no new negotiations in any new negotiations!!!  Drat!  If it wasn't for those pesky kids!

JuliusHMarx wrote:

All his talk of a 'golden age' is ridiculous, but there are plenty of people who would still support him if he said unicorns would roam wild in the hills and there would be faeries at the end of every garden.  

But such a drugged up decadent and debauched world already exists.  It just gets hidden by the Dark Web...innit.  Electricians have been employed to bring light to it though.  So we'll all soon know what the unicorns and faeries have been up to in the wild hills and hidden gardens.

Arrogant certainty? How so? The EU have explicit rules on countries border checks neighbouring non-EU countries. Hard borders are a guarantee. However, Boris thinks he can get special terms for some reason that does not apply to umpteen other countries across Europe.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Arrogant certainty? How so? The EU have explicit rules on countries border checks neighbouring non-EU countries. Hard borders are a guarantee. However, Boris thinks he can get special terms for some reason that does not apply to umpteen other countries across Europe.

Rules, even explicit ones...change.  It's called time and often called history.  How many rules, pacts and agreements were written down, agreed to and torn up before and during WW2.  We all read about them in our history classes.

Nothing is forever.  The EU only has rules for as long as it agrees with them and only for as long as the EU itself survives in its current format.  The EU doesn't dictate future history it simply tries to negotiate a way through that future.

The threat posed by the UK leaving the EU is far greater than trade deals and movements of people and economics.  And the EU know this.  The threat is to the very survival of the EU itself.  So if they sneer that the UK will suffer in the leaving, they hide their own fear that their own entity might fall to pressures from within and without and shrivel up to be replaced with new concepts for how European Nations might better plan their future as neighbours and trading friends.  Europe fears loss of power and meaning if UK prospers outside their 'protective' embrace.

I suggest you look at how Ireland itself views this. It is their border too and they are realistic to realise Boris lives in the land of GaGa as far as negotiating is concerned. It is quite funny too as BoJo himself touted Brexit as a chance to secure Britain's borders and yet here he is trying to prevent a strengthened border. How curious.

CaledonianCraig wrote:I suggest you look at how Ireland itself views this. It is their border too and they are realistic to realise Boris lives in the land of GaGa as far as negotiating is concerned. It is quite funny too as BoJo himself touted Brexit as a chance to secure Britain's borders and yet here he is trying to prevent a strengthened border. How curious.

I'm Irish.  And unfortunately I have to inform you that just like the UK, there is no single political opinion in Ireland ...though of course, like in most Western countries, there IS an establishment supported 'approved' opinion that gets most traction in mainstream media.  
The EU does not control history.  Their rules only last as long as the majority voice in the EU holds onto them and for as long as the EU itself lasts as a distinct European political entity.
Ireland too..... can turn in an instant.  We already voted twice antiEU in referenda of our own.  All it takes is conditions.  Yet again, UK is a test case that will be watched closely by many Nations in the EU.  The success or otherwise of UKs decision is out there somewhere in the future, not anywhere in the present talk-shop debates about what that future will be.

The point was made again this morning that even if we leave without a deal on 31st October, we'll still want to negotiate a free trade agreement with the EU - most of our trade is with the EU, simple geography dictates that it always will be, and this can't be replaced or offset by trade elsewhere.  And what will reappear when we come to negotiate a free trade agreement? The issue of Irish border. So leaving on Hallowe'en really won't bring an end to things in any meaningful way - we'll just knowingly damage the economy, and then re-enter negotiations.

Off on an undeserved holiday tomorrow....Glad to get away from this depressing Country...USA is no better..

A couple of twonk leaders lowering the reputations..

See Boris is heading to Scotland with the promise of 300 million bribe money to throw around.

Is he going to buy everybody a mars bar each ??

Scotland will be an Independent Country in the next ten years for sure.

With all the 'Sobering' problems that will entail.

SecretFly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:I suggest you look at how Ireland itself views this. It is their border too and they are realistic to realise Boris lives in the land of GaGa as far as negotiating is concerned. It is quite funny too as BoJo himself touted Brexit as a chance to secure Britain's borders and yet here he is trying to prevent a strengthened border. How curious.

I'm Irish.  And unfortunately I have to inform you that just like the UK, there is no single political opinion in Ireland ...though of course, like in most Western countries, there IS an establishment supported 'approved' opinion that gets most traction in mainstream media.  
The EU does not control history.  Their rules only last as long as the majority voice in the EU holds onto them and for as long as the EU itself lasts as a distinct European political entity.
Ireland too..... can turn in an instant.  We already voted twice antiEU in referenda of our own.  All it takes is conditions.  Yet again, UK is a test case that will be watched closely by many Nations in the EU.  The success or otherwise of UKs decision is out there somewhere in the future, not anywhere in the present talk-shop debates about what that future will be.

Very good. However, as it stands the Irish government are in the camp that BoJo is living in a world of fantasy over the backstop issue. It is either a hard border or the backstop agreement but BJ is demanding neither and has no alternative solution in any case. His views on the Irish border were shown up in the only live debate he sat in on the leadership debate. Clueless I would say.