Political round up.............

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Soft thread split, hard thread split, no-deal thread split. Who gives a sh!t as long as we get a thread split by the 15:35 deadline.

navyblueshorts wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The supreme court's ruling on the lawfulness of the recent prorogation of parliament is due early next week.

I've tried to follow it despite being at work, but I thought Lord Keen's argument (for the government) here was pretty weak:



Lord Keen says proroguing Parliament doesn't prevent the government and prime minister being held to account.

“It’s a fact that for a period prorogation will affect accountability in Parliament but it doesn’t prevent accountability beyond Parliament," he says.

He argues the prime minister can still be held to account by the public and the media and in upcoming party conferences.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49751323

Nothing confirmed but smart money is on Gov losing. Must be tough when a former Conservative PM is fighting for the other side.

The main problems are that
1) depending on the wording of the ruling they may try and prorogue again straight away
2) its conference season - so Labour and Cons won't want to go back for a couple of weeks anyway.

Any other time in history it would mean governmental resignations all round and maybe even the odd attempt to 'do the decent thing' with a loaded revolver. These days - probably nothing.

Some hope. They'd screw that up as well...

Monty python upper class twit of the year... To be honest considering how thick their skulls are and how small the target actually blowing their brains out would be quite an achievement.

Duty281 wrote:Labour have been trending downwards in the polls since Johnson became Tory Leader, with the LDs going the opposite way, so little surprise to see Labour down to 3rd in that latest YouGov poll. But in the next election, even if Labour do win fewer votes nationally than the LDs, they will still almost certainly win a far greater number of seats thanks to the joys of FPTP.

Incidentally, the Tories have led in every poll but one since Johnson became leader, with the three most recent polls putting the Tories lead at 9, 9 and 12 percent respectively. And they've still got the BP vote to plunder.

You are correct and its astonishing, really. I do wonder how well the polls will match reality, but we have a government that cannot do a single thing right, and yet they are still on course to be the single largest party if a GE was to be held tomorrow.

I wonder how the Labour party will be able to sell coming 3rd as yet another great victory for the messiah.

Bit rich Tories criticising kids for taking a day off to fight for Climate change...When their Party has just given themselves five weeks off from Parliament.

What's really interesting to me is that whatever happens with Brexit - and Brexit with a deal is probably the closest thing to a good result as we can hope for, in terms of leaving the least number of people furious - we're not going back to the status quo. That's gone now. There's so much in play politically.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Bit rich Tories criticising kids for taking a day off to fight for Climate change...When their Party has just given themselves five weeks off from Parliament.

I find it pretty funny how touchy people get about the children striking.

It's also sad how much flak Greta Thunberg gets. She's accomplished more in her 16 years than a lot of these leaders and "columnists" have in their entire lives.

Think about it. People are talking so much more about climate change now, since she started these movements, than before. People just can't take that hers is a completely selfless message. She's not interested in being famous. But if her fame leads to climate change finally being dealt with then she's all for it.

And then you get howling conscience-vacuums like Julia Hartley-Brewer attacking her on Twitter, and boasting that she'd booked the family on a long-haul flight.

Imagine being fortunate enough to have a platform, and some degree of influence, and using it to mock a young girl who's literally trying to save the world.

Imagine people being irritated by the disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion and all those associated with that group.

Soul Requiem wrote:Imagine people being irritated by the disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion and all those associated with that group.

Imagine not understanding the concept of civil disobedience.

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Imagine people being irritated by the disruption caused by Extinction Rebellion and all those associated with that group.

Imagine not understanding the concept of civil disobedience.

You outdo your ability to be inane every single day, imagine being perfectly happy with families having holidays abroad disrupted because it's the liberal thing to do.

I also assume you had your daily commute to work in London disrupted too?

If that's what it takes to get stuff done regarding climate change then I'm all for it.

She's doing a magnificent job. The science is there. The most qualified people on the planet are in unanimous agreement about how much do-do we're in. She's trying to do something about it.

And the usual pond life is complaining about their commute as if it matters.

So on one hand you complain about people not being able to survive in the current economical climate but you're perfectly happy to see the same people out of pocket because some idiots want to cause disruption for the sake of it. She's doing a magnificent job achieving nothing, bravo.

There's taking a long-haul flight and there's boasting about taking a long-haul flight, revelling in the damage such travel does.

Either you accept that there's a serious problem that requires change to combat it, or you don't.

You're talking about her. You're talking about the issue, saying she's doing a bad job while being seemingly completely unaware of the hilarious irony.

I'd say she's doing a pretty good job.

Also, apparently caring about the less well-off while being a supporter of Brexit. Irony again.

Am I a supporter or Brexit or am I a supporter of following through on the referendum?

Strange how you jump to conclusions all the time without taking a breath and actually thinking for once. I also don't think you quite understand what irony is, bless you.

Save your blessings, chief.

You failing to address the actual argument, as usual, says it all.

I've addressed the actual argument, you just disagree with it and have no understanding of it. It's very easy to talk about issues that have no effect on your life, apparently travel disruption doesn't matter but then it wouldn't if you weren't personally affected by it.

Climate change is a problem as is our propensity for using and discarding plastic, I work in the latter industry and can safely say there is a reluctance for change on the whole but a handful of companies are in the midst of actual change.

You haven't addressed the argument. You say she's doing a "magnificent job achieving nothing, bravo".

But here you are talking about the very issue that it's her mission to get people talking about.

You understand it's working, yes? Slowly but surely. She's already raised so much more awareness than anybody else ever has.

She spoke to US Congress yesterday, for crying out loud. A 16 year old girl put them all in their place when they tried the usual platitudes and she got so much publicity for it.

I was talking about the issue long before she came onto the scene or do you think everyone talking about the environment is as a result of one person? It's such a fickle argument, is it working or does simply suit your agenda to think it is?

China is ultimately the only country that can make a difference, talking to countries already doing something isn't really action.

lostinwales wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The supreme court's ruling on the lawfulness of the recent prorogation of parliament is due early next week.

I've tried to follow it despite being at work, but I thought Lord Keen's argument (for the government) here was pretty weak:



Lord Keen says proroguing Parliament doesn't prevent the government and prime minister being held to account.

“It’s a fact that for a period prorogation will affect accountability in Parliament but it doesn’t prevent accountability beyond Parliament," he says.

He argues the prime minister can still be held to account by the public and the media and in upcoming party conferences.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-49751323

Nothing confirmed but smart money is on Gov losing. Must be tough when a former Conservative PM is fighting for the other side.

The main problems are that
1) depending on the wording of the ruling they may try and prorogue again straight away
2) its conference season - so Labour and Cons won't want to go back for a couple of weeks anyway.

Any other time in history it would mean governmental resignations all round and maybe even the odd attempt to 'do the decent thing' with a loaded revolver. These days - probably nothing.

Some hope. They'd screw that up as well...

Monty python upper class twit of the year... To be honest considering how thick their skulls are and how small the target actually blowing their brains out would be quite an achievement.

Pr4wn wrote:You haven't addressed the argument. You say she's doing a "magnificent job achieving nothing, bravo".

But here you are talking about the very issue that it's her mission to get people talking about.

You understand it's working, yes? Slowly but surely. She's already raised so much more awareness than anybody else ever has.

She spoke to US Congress yesterday, for crying out loud. A 16 year old girl put them all in their place when they tried the usual platitudes and she got so much publicity for it.

She's trendy. It'll pass. It's hard to like the yoof banging on about this (for all I agree that a lot more needs doing on the climate) and other things when they have none of the daily concerns of the rest of the World. I'm sure their carbon footprint etc is zero or even negative. The lot of them.

She'll probably be given some Nobel or something eventually.

Sorry. It's Friday, the week for me has pretty much been utter scheisse (Monday excepted), I can't avoid some unpaid overtime this evening and I want to go home.

Pointing out slight hypocrisy in children who are simply worried about the planet they'll inherit from us idiots is pretty desperate.

They're doing more than most. Doing what they can. If the best that the naysayers can come up with is that they were maybe driven to the protest then they've pretty much won the argument already.

Pr4wn wrote:Pointing out slight hypocrisy in children who are simply worried about the planet they'll inherit from us idiots is pretty desperate.

They're doing more than most. Doing what they can. If the best that the naysayers can come up with is that they were maybe driven to the protest then they've pretty much won the argument already.

such a cop out remark, you've not responded to a single point that Navy rightfully addressed.

My point is so what if they were driven there? They're doing more about the biggest crisis facing the world than anybody else, especially the fully-grown adults that can only muster contempt for their caring about their future. This after being complicit in ruining it.

My point is that at least they're doing something more than pathetically complaining about their commute.

They're not actually doing a thing are they and it's hardly pathetic of people to complain about having difficulty getting to work.

Protesting isn't "not actually doing a thing". Did Gandhi not actually do a thing? How about the Suffragettes? Martin Luther King and the civil rights protesters?

And in the grand scheme of things, with these kids literally protesting to save the world, of course complaining about your commute pathetic.

So you decide what is and what isn't acceptable? You also decided whether my day should be disrupted by others despite the fact you apparently live on the other side of the planet and are discussing things you simply do not understand.

You're doing those names a massive disservice by calling them protesters and again another show of your staggering lack of understanding, personally think that's insulting to the civil rights movement to even compare it to today. Today is nothing more than some kids wanting the day off of school.

I don't really care about your day, sorry. It's exactly the point I'm making. Your day doesn't matter and nobody cares about it. Compared to what these kids are having the stones to stand up for, it's completely insignificant. The fact that you're making this argument personal, rather than sticking to the topic - as usual - shows your desperation.

Gandhi engaged in civil disobedience, just as these kids are. Your entire second paragraph manages to say absolutely nothing of substance, other than Mark Francois levels of hyperbole.

The stones to stand up for? Taking a day off of school, christ that's great stuff that is, doing your usual of realising your argument is redundant and resorting to ad hominems, now that is genuine irony.

Gandhi lived by his words. I wonder how many of these kids are going to forego learning to drive, travelling by plane, refuse to purchase from multinationals and I wonder how many rely on their mobile phones, computers and various other electronic devices. You know all those things that would make an actual difference.

You do genuinely amuse me

Soul Requiem wrote:The stones to stand up for? Taking a day off of school, christ that's great stuff that is, doing your usual of realising your argument is redundant and resorting to ad hominems, now that is genuine irony.

Gandhi lived by his words. I wonder how many of these kids are going to forego learning to drive, travelling by plane, refuse to purchase from multinationals and I wonder how many rely on their mobile phones, computers and various other electronic devices. You know all those things that would make an actual difference.

You do genuinely amuse me  

Point and laugh all you like, chief. These kids are out on the streets protesting to try to save the world and you're complaining about your commute and accusing them of future hypocrisy.

So actual change doesn't matter but protesting does.

My commute doesn't matter but the cleaners does, she's late for work or even worse can't get there at all she doesn't get paid and it then spirals and that's happening to multiple low earners because of this but it's alright you don't care about them.

No, I don't really care about you or them. The world is more important.

You clearly haven't been paying attention to any protests if you think that these kids can achieve change immediately.

But make no mistake, if they keep at it, keep going, they'll achieve change. They're the future electorate, the future economy. If your answer is just to sneer at them then I feel sorry for you.

So all the time you've spent complaining about social injustice is meaningless drivel, glad to clear that up.

Importance is not binary. There can be varying degrees of importance. Social mobility and social justice are very important. Climate change is the most important talking/action point in the world right now.

I can’t believe I even have to explain this. Jesus wept.

Arguably the funniest thing I’ve seen on this forum is HH moaning that his commute was affected.

Aside from that, I see Labour are trying to off Tom Watson. How that party is managing to make the Conservatives look more stable than them is a fascinating example of shooting yourself in the foot

rumour is Corbyns going so the urgency is to stop Watson inheriting the leaders role.

but yeah. The Tories have been offering Labour open goals for years now and they just cant take any of them.

GSC wrote:rumour is Corbyns going so the urgency is to stop Watson inheriting the leaders role.

Have you seen who the anointed successor is? Long-Bailey (Wrong Daily). You just could not make it up

guess they werent content with just being irrelevant during brexit

Duty281 wrote:Labour have been trending downwards in the polls since Johnson became Tory Leader, with the LDs going the opposite way, so little surprise to see Labour down to 3rd in that latest YouGov poll. But in the next election, even if Labour do win fewer votes nationally than the LDs, they will still almost certainly win a far greater number of seats thanks to the joys of FPTP.

Incidentally, the Tories have led in every poll but one since Johnson became leader, with the three most recent polls putting the Tories lead at 9, 9 and 12 percent respectively. And they've still got the BP vote to plunder.

Labour's real problem is people do not really know where they stand on Brexit. There are far too many mixed messages being sent out from them on what is the biggest political issue the UK has known since the end of World War Two. The Tories will pick up voters who support a No Deal Brexit. The Lib Dems have categorically said they would hold a second referendum and so their appealing to Remainers and doing well for it in the polls and in recent by-elections etc. Labour need to get off the fence on this issue.

Pr4wn wrote:Protesting isn't "not actually doing a thing". Did Gandhi not actually do a thing? How about the Suffragettes? Martin Luther King and the civil rights protesters?...

Very valid arguments, however...

Pr4wn wrote:My point is so what if they were driven there? They're doing more about the biggest crisis facing the world than anybody else, especially the fully-grown adults that can only muster contempt for their caring about their future. This after being complicit in ruining it...

A less great point. Of course, no adult is doing anything, at all, are they? As for the 'ruining it' remark, the self-same Greta Thunbergs of the World would also have 'ruined it', had they been born 50 years ago.

Pr4wn wrote:No, I don't really care about you or them. The world is more important.

You clearly haven't been paying attention to any protests if you think that these kids can achieve change immediately.

But make no mistake, if they keep at it, keep going, they'll achieve change. They're the future electorate, the future economy. If your answer is just to sneer at them then I feel sorry for you.

This is an important point. If they keep their interest and actually do start to live, purchase, work, start businesses etc with the climate in mind, that really would be something.

lostinwales wrote:

GSC wrote:rumour is Corbyns going so the urgency is to stop Watson inheriting the leaders role.

Have you seen who the anointed successor is? Long-Bailey (Wrong Daily). You just could not make it up

Really? That would explain why she's constantly being shoved in front of the cameras. Is that the best they've got??

Thornberry got sent to the doghouse for backing remain a while ago I think.

That or McDonnell who probably has just as much baggage as Corbyn

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Labour have been trending downwards in the polls since Johnson became Tory Leader, with the LDs going the opposite way, so little surprise to see Labour down to 3rd in that latest YouGov poll. But in the next election, even if Labour do win fewer votes nationally than the LDs, they will still almost certainly win a far greater number of seats thanks to the joys of FPTP.

Incidentally, the Tories have led in every poll but one since Johnson became leader, with the three most recent polls putting the Tories lead at 9, 9 and 12 percent respectively. And they've still got the BP vote to plunder.

Labour's real problem is people do not really know where they stand on Brexit. There are far too many mixed messages being sent out from them on what is the biggest political issue the UK has known since the end of World War Two. The Tories will pick up voters who support a No Deal Brexit. The Lib Dems have categorically said they would hold a second referendum and so their appealing to Remainers and doing well for it in the polls and in recent by-elections etc. Labour need to get off the fence on this issue.

True, but that requires real leadership. Difficult with Corbyn there, given he appears to be a Momentum/Unions stooge.

Yes Brexit has hurt Labour...Too much peeing about.

Problem is the marginals are leave seats and the members are mainly remainers..

Two very different polls out..

Opinium.
Con 37
Lab 22
Lib 17

Yougov
Con 30
Lab 23
Lib 22

One poll has a Tory majority of 200..

The other a Hung Parliament..

Go figure..

I agree the current education system isn't good for social mobility, but that should be changed by perhaps increasing tax on private schools and then spending the money to improve state schools.

This policy from Labour is not pragmatic, and also chilling:

1/ The state should not have a right to ban people from setting up non state sanctioned education. Open to abuse by authoritarians.

2/ The policy will mean government will have to pay for education for all those kids who were taught by private schools. Will mean less money per pupil unless they increase education budget.

3/ Compulsory confiscation of private property is authoritarian.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:My point is so what if they were driven there? They're doing more about the biggest crisis facing the world than anybody else, especially the fully-grown adults that can only muster contempt for their caring about their future. This after being complicit in ruining it...

A less great point. Of course, no adult is doing anything, at all, are they? As for the 'ruining it' remark, the self-same Greta Thunbergs of the World would also have 'ruined it', had they been born 50 years ago.

But they weren't born 50 years ago, so they didn't ruin it.

My point is that there are still so many people who are, rather than actually trying to do anything positive to solve this crisis, just slagging off these kids.

Stupid policy from Labour abolishing private schools..

I believe in choice....Looks like the policy is based on jealousy whether it is or isn't..Not a good look.

However I do agree with removing their charitable status...

As for their Deputy Leader debacle...Shambles...

If you are going to try to get rid....Do it....If you back down you lose twice as he is stronger and you look like muppets..

Should have got rid of him...He is poison and always has been since he schemed 24/7 against Blair also.

As someone who wants anyone but Johnson it is depressing stuff..

Pr4wn wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Pr4wn wrote:My point is so what if they were driven there? They're doing more about the biggest crisis facing the world than anybody else, especially the fully-grown adults that can only muster contempt for their caring about their future. This after being complicit in ruining it...

A less great point. Of course, no adult is doing anything, at all, are they? As for the 'ruining it' remark, the self-same Greta Thunbergs of the World would also have 'ruined it', had they been born 50 years ago.

But they weren't born 50 years ago, so they didn't ruin it.

My point is that there are still so many people who are, rather than actually trying to do anything positive to solve this crisis, just slagging off these kids.

Fine, but you miss my point. These climate protesters are the same as you, me, Soul etc. They're just of their time and we're a product of ours. Your casual slagging off of all adults is pretty cheap, and more importantly, pretty inaccurate.
I suspect the majority slagging off these kids are doing so because of the general hypocrisy of the majority of protestors and the fact those criticising have their own lives to get on with, filled with the mundane, but important, things such as getting paid, raising kids, worrying about health, retirement etc etc.
Rather than p!ssing off a large proportion of people trying to get on with their daily lives, these protestors could practice what they preach and point out to the various companies why they're not buying smart phones, taking holidays abroad, eating meat etc etc etc. You know, hit those companies in the pocket. Some of them undoubtedly are, but I suspect the majority haven't even thought about it.