Political round up.............

First topic message reminder :

Soft thread split, hard thread split, no-deal thread split. Who gives a sh!t as long as we get a thread split by the 15:35 deadline.

All the opposition Parties have accepted a GE after No Deal has been stopped.

Bless you...Try to keep up !!

You mean when no deal has been delayed, I've never known an opposition openly admit they can't win an election before. Embarrassing.

Let me explain.. All the opposition Parties want a GE after No Deal...and... with a newly found majority of 48..

Correct the opposition can call one whenever they like as they have more MPs..

If a Childish...Mysogynistic...Racist...Bigot is worried about Oct 31 and wants to cash in before...

Tough doggy doodle doodie doo..

The guy you speak of (Corbyn) knows he won't win so is running scared. The only real difference will be a Tory majority or a Tory/Farage coalition.

Moving on....

Survation...Generally regarded as the gold standard...

Con 27
Lab 24
Lib 22

The above poll would result in a new GE taking place straight after it..

I imagine nailed on tactical voting from the leave and remain sides make polling a bit kamikaze...

Comres has Labour level...Opinium has the Tories 13 ahead.

The way I see it that the opposition don't want a GE until it is off the table, as agreeing to one gives the government the power to choose the date, and then parliament can be shutdown at their choosing.

This then enables them to ensure parliament isn't sitting as the clock ticks over 31st October.

For me the clear answer is for the opposition parties to put aside their differences, compromise so that they can call a vote in no-confidence and form a national unity government

Soul Requiem wrote:If the opposition lacks the integrity to accept a general election then this is what you get.

Utter nonsense. This was what we were going to get anyway. This Government, and this PM in particular, have shown themselves to be utterly untrustworthy. I wouldn't trust them to sit the right way on a toilet seat. No-one, repeat, no-one, trusts a word uttered by them so why would anyone believe them re. a no-deal Brexit or that they won't pull a fast one if opposition parties fall for the trap?

No, Johnson et al have made their beds. They can lie in them.

Oh, more on 'trust':

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49833221

Lies, lies, lies and more lies. I know that's the raison d'etre of politicians in the main, but this lot appear to be about as low as you can get.

The depressing fact is that we have a wet blanket as Opposition 'leader'....

navyblueshorts wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:If the opposition lacks the integrity to accept a general election then this is what you get.

Utter nonsense. This was what we were going to get anyway. This Government, and this PM in particular, have shown themselves to be utterly untrustworthy. I wouldn't trust them to sit the right way on a toilet seat. No-one, repeat, no-one, trusts a word uttered by them so why would anyone believe them re. a no-deal Brexit or that they won't pull a fast one if opposition parties fall for the trap?

No, Johnson et al have made their beds. They can lie in them.

You speak for the whole electorate then do you? I fully expect to see the Conservatives with no seats at the next general election or is that just a personal opinion that you're trying to extrapolate needlessly.

Soul Requiem wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:If the opposition lacks the integrity to accept a general election then this is what you get.

Utter nonsense. This was what we were going to get anyway. This Government, and this PM in particular, have shown themselves to be utterly untrustworthy. I wouldn't trust them to sit the right way on a toilet seat. No-one, repeat, no-one, trusts a word uttered by them so why would anyone believe them re. a no-deal Brexit or that they won't pull a fast one if opposition parties fall for the trap?

No, Johnson et al have made their beds. They can lie in them.

You speak for the whole electorate then do you? I fully expect to see the Conservatives with no seats at the next general election or is that just a personal opinion that you're trying to extrapolate needlessly.

What's the electorate got to do with the point at hand? I, along with preceding comments in the thread (and indeed your own to which I replied), was talking about Parliament and its current behaviour. Keep to the issue; we aren't distracted by your lack of comprehension and/or deliberate attempts to get off the point you've been pinned to .

Moving the goalposts

Not sure it's cowardice. In fact, he knows he is being continually labelled weak by a game-playing Tory party, but there is more of an emphasis on doing what is right for the country. Weird though it might seem for politicians to act with the best interests of the public in mind.

Think Boris is acting at his most disgusting over this, and the Tories have reached a real low.

Soul Requiem wrote:If the opposition lacks the integrity to accept a general election then this is what you get.

Its been explained countless times why they’re not accepting a GE right now.

I am so very glad that Parliament was recalled so they could get to the important business of shouting and screaming at each other in their various ways. Worthy cause.

Meanwhile it's another day closer to Brexit. Most interesting thing about yesterday's sitting was Johnson saying he wouldn't seek an article 50 extension, as in keeping with the Benn Act.

Because he has enough wiggle room to say he'll have a deal by then so he wont have to ask.

I very much doubt Boris is going to martyr himself and be found in contempt, it's not really his style to endure any hardship

Duty281 wrote:I am so very glad that Parliament was recalled so they could get to the important business of shouting and screaming at each other in their various ways. Worthy cause.

Meanwhile it's another day closer to Brexit. Most interesting thing about yesterday's sitting was Johnson saying he wouldn't seek an article 50 extension, as in keeping with the Benn Act.

Yes, it would have been better if Parliament continued to be prorogued unlawfully wouldn't it

Johnson is thick as mince, but he's surrounded by slippery little snakes. I hope the Benn Act is watertight for all our sake's

I think Boris's bluster will play well to the ardent Brexiteers, but ostracise the moderate Tories (already a diminished element of the Parliamentary party). Shoring their vote up from the UKIP / Brexit Party fringe, but potentially at the loss of the centre ground. I don't think trying to ape Trump will play well here, especially as BoJo has to remember he is not a President.

Corbyn is in a difficult position, as a new GE is so unpredictable, and his attempt to be all things to all men (other than the hard Brexit voters) is making him appear indecisive and failing to please anyone much. By comparison, the clarity of the Lib Dems position must be attractive to many remainers.

The refusing an election until after the A50 extension request is probably sensible from a policy perspective, but appears to be political gamesmanship (then again the Tories insistence on an immediate election are exactly the same).

Opinion polls are all over the place, so no trust can really be put in them. Also, I think they are permanently playing catch-up to the situation on the ground.

I am amazed at the Brexiteers ability to hold mutually exclusive positions simultaneously over at least 2 issues:

Firstly: Boris's claim that prorogation was not about Brexit but was about introducing new domestic legislation via a Queen's speech, and then argue that the judgment agains him was the Court interfering with the Brexit negotiations.

Secondly: Leaving the EU was about taking back control of our democracy and legal system. When the UK Parliament and Supreme Court don't support their most extreme positions, that it is Parliament and the Court that are wrong.

See Claudius is now being accused of burning £50 notes in front of Homeless People while at Uni...

I can believe it..

Sad thing is....It is the kind of behaviour that endears him to the bitter....cheap...haters that stick up for him..

Heaven help the UK..

41% according to a new poll think he is doing a good job..

Yes if you are working class and struggling blame the immigrants that run the NHS and are a net positive on the Economy..

Deary me and they moan that 16 year olds are too young to vote !!!

Think Boris in general is pushing him into a corner. Playing the brexit at any costs might work on the head bangers and Tory MPs desperate to survive brexit.

Even if he gets no deal, what happens when the head bangers dont need him anymore and the rest of the party think hes a man sausage. Particularly if a scapegoat is required in post Brexit Britain...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:See Claudius is now being accused of burning £50 notes in front of Homeless People while at Uni...

I can believe it..

Sad thing is....It is the kind of behaviour that endears him to the bitter....cheap...haters that stick up for him..

Heaven help the UK..

41% according to a new poll think he is doing a good job..

Yes if you are working class and struggling blame the immigrants that run the NHS and are a net positive on the Economy..

Deary me and they moan that 16 year olds are too young to vote !!!

What are the figures for that when we take out the top 10%?

it probably becomes less positive because that's what happens when you take out the highest numbers from a sample

Everyone has the right to reply...All opinions welcome..

GSC wrote:it probably becomes less positive because that's what happens when you take out the highest numbers from a sample

Precisely, so using an overall figure is pretty useless.

Soul Requiem wrote:

GSC wrote:it probably becomes less positive because that's what happens when you take out the highest numbers from a sample

Precisely, so using an overall figure is pretty useless.

No, removing the top 10% is "pretty useless" because then it doesn't reflect the reality of the situation with regard to immigration.

Soul Requiem wrote:If the opposition lacks the integrity to accept a general election then this is what you get.

Despite your pitiful lack of willingness to even try to understand the situation, the very least the British public should expect from their Prime Minister would be that he would act with a little dignity after being recalled to Parliament after unlawfully proroguing it.

Soul Requiem wrote:

GSC wrote:it probably becomes less positive because that's what happens when you take out the highest numbers from a sample

Precisely, so using an overall figure is pretty useless.

That's one of the most stupid things that I've ever read.

Soul Requiem wrote:You mean when no deal has been delayed, I've never known an opposition openly admit they can't win an election before. Embarrassing.

Everybody wants a GE. It is just timing and Boris can't control that.

It is very simple. A GE is both a way around the Benn act and offers the chance of forcing a no deal Brexit without input from Parliament. So a GE will only take place when there is no danger of a no deal Brexit happening on the 31st.

If BloJo gets a deal past parliament before then all well and good - but the chances of that are minimal.

It's not just BloJo's language and attitude that stinks here. Gove came in and talked solid BS for an hour on Brexit prep before hand, directly contradicting statements about buisness preparations from trade bodies.

He answered a question the impact of losing access to EU criminal databases by saying that border forces would get increased powers. What kind? Will he negotiate with the elder gods to grant new border forces telepathy? Maybe we could form a future crimes squad?

There's no point in explaining something to somebody who doesn't want to understand it.

Pr4wn wrote:There's no point in explaining something to somebody who doesn't want to understand it.

Yes. And a big reason for why we are where we are. A lot of people seemed to buy some of the lies after which they just shut down any critical facilities. It is like a cult, and any problem or hiccup on the path to the promised land is down to the evil actions of the non believers.

It is not far off being like one of those doomsday cults claiming the end of the world will occur on a given day without knowing what to do when it doesn't happen.

People who have a desire to leave supported by genuine reasons are fine, but they seem in short supply these days.

Fairly clear Boris is just trying to aggravate the other parties into giving him an election. Fortunately they dont seem to be taking the bait and all that really happens is the public sees is a man who really doesnt seem to have any moral boundaries or principles.

dont know if that's enough to convert many Tory/Brexit voters but it isnt winning any

I don’t think it’s even trying to aggravate other parties. I think he’s stoking the flames of rivalry in the Brexiteers and, most specifically, the No Deal zealots in the country.

It’s kinda like watching Jose Mourinho. He’s clearly a c***, but fans will back their man unequivocally till he’s all of a sudden their man to blame.

Boris cant even get a 3 day recess for a party conference

GSC wrote:Boris cant even get a 3 day recess for a party conference

He's an idiot. Should have thought of that before the prorogation attempt. Can't say I'm sorry for him.

Johnsons sister Rachel believes the Prime Minister may be losing control of his behavior because he’s coming “under intense pressure from the people who have invested billions in shorting the £ & British economy for a no deal Brexit”.

Time to go home to the Red Dragon....

Some food for thought....

Boris Johnson.....Yougov..

Is he competent ??
Yes 33%
No 50%

Is he honest ??
Yes 22%
No 52%

Is he authentic or putting on an act ??
Authentic 30%
Putting on an act 50%

Is he in touch with ordinary People ??
Yes 26%
No 56%

But...........

Is he decisive ??
Yes 54%
No 29%

Is he strong or weak
Strong 46%
Weak 36%

Is he likeable ??
Yes 40%
No 45%

"He's dishonest, incompetent, putting on an act and out of touch, but by god I like the guy"

Johnson confirms to the 1922 committee that not only will they continue to use language like “surrender bill” but they will actually increase their usage.

This is a Bannonesque mobilising of the troops. This is ‘us vs them’ fear mongering. This is a culture war now. Coupled with the attacks on the judiciary this is the beginning of the facist takeover of British politics.

He's just trying to set up the most divisive election possible.

Samo wrote:Coupled with the attacks on the judiciary this is the beginning of the facist takeover of British politics.

Like you, I am appalled at the behaviour and rhetoric of Boris Johnson and the Tories.
However I disagree it is a beginning of a fascist takeover, I think that's unreasonable and hyperbolic.

The descent into fascism is not an instant one, it's far more gradual than people realise.

Curious that a poster would display concern that a politician would use the word 'surrender' against his political enemies, then proceed to accuse said politician/political party of initiating the beginning of a fascist takeover.

Pr suggests the descent into fascism is not instant but much more cloaked, slow burning and sly.  It's true to an extent.  All oppressive ideologies to a degree can take their time but of course revolutions can be quicker too.  

But one of the main weapons used to advance any ideology of oppression, is the control of language; telling people what the can say, and more importantly of course, what they can't say.
Are Boris Johnson's political enemies now trying to dictate what language he gets to use to confront them, whilst they choose freely from their lexicon the language they feel best suits him?  

Back to the contemplation of the term Fascist.

Shame on opposition Mps who knew Jo Cox and receive death threats laced with Claudius language like "traitor' to want it toned down..

We should all donate to the EDL to fight these fascists.

More of the usual whataboutery dross.

Nobody is "telling" anyone what they can and cannot say. It's the usual deliberate hyperbole from you. Various members of the house ASKED the PM to tone down his rhetoric to prevent violence. This isn't about censorship.

Just yesterday, one of the MPs that requested that Johnson tone it down had her constituency office attacked by a violent opponent of her Brexit stance.

To compare this request to fascism makes you look rather daft, Fly. Not matter how much you try to obfuscate the truth.

I'd suggest that Boris refusing to admit the power of his words whilst carefully choosing his language is someone looking to control the language used, especially in the press (the biggest weapon one can have)

Labour won a seat off the Tories last night because they both lost vote share to the Lib Dems and Labour lost less..

Tories were well up in Tory seats and well down in Labour ones..

The next GE will depend on how well the smaller Parties do and where they do it..

It Must Be Love wrote:

Samo wrote:Coupled with the attacks on the judiciary this is the beginning of the facist takeover of British politics.

Like you, I am appalled at the behaviour and rhetoric of Boris Johnson and the Tories.
However I disagree it is a beginning of a fascist takeover, I think that's unreasonable and hyperbolic.

Personally I am wary of declaring one thing or another, but some would say it's not the beginning as its been going on for a while. You have to ask yourself how political debate has been dragged so far from its normal frame of reference that the Lib Dems are dangerous extremists, that the supreme court judges were biased, and that somehow Gove was right about preparations and the automotive trade body are wrong 'because you can always find some remoaner to disagree' (Rees Mogg in parliament)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49850484?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story

At long last it is starting to dawn on them that they need to see past their differences, and that it doesn't really matter which of them leads, they just need to agree for long enough to have someone agree the extension and then call the GE.

Worst case scenario is probably 1 month of someone they don't really want, who actually won't able to push anything through that hasn't been agreed on, as they won't get a majority for it.

Just need the other opposition parties to come to the same conclusion and we can sort this mess once and for all

Tories are worried that Corbyn or a Labour grandee may try to push through votes at 16 and then call a GE..

Women and Johnson...

Honest......19%

Authentic..28%

Likeable....36%

Strong......43%

Competent.30%

Women get marked down in polls because historically more Men vote......Looks like the next GE could be in their hands..

Will they turn up ??

Afro

I think Labour in particular are still very aware of the potential electoral maths - push BoJo out now by a vote of no confidence and he becomes a martyr to the Brexit cause, especially as one of the few jobs that any interim administration would have to do is apply for an extension to the A50 deadline. Mobilises every pro-Brexit voter to the Conservative cause.

If they can wait until late October (on the assumption that Boris can't pull a rabbit from the hat and produce a deal that Parliament will agree to), then Boris has the choice of either having to ask the EU for the extension he swore would never happen (and so looking weak to the possible Brexit Party voters) or going against the Benn Act, which will likely see another Supreme Court judgement against him - it has also been suggested (by a former Head of the Supreme Court) that under such circumstances of the PM blatantly ignoring the legislation, the Court could appoint a proxy who would fulfil the requirements of the legislation.

Of course there is always the elephant in the room that there is no deal available with the EU that would come close the being as beneficial as our current full membership - in reality the only coherent positions are Brexit with no deal (which has issues in particular relating to the Irish border and Good Friday Agreement requirements, and which undoubtedly leads to short and medium term issues, but has greater scope for global trade deals subsequently) or to stop the Article 50 process and retain membership on existing terms.

Not really sure what the best solution really is - Could we accept that the leave negotiations have been an ominshambles, and terminate the process, so going back to full membership with the option to reinitiate the A50 process at some future point when we have a better idea of where we want to be at the end of it?

The last option would be best. Ideally throw in a Royal commission or suchlike to look at the reality of the situation, maybe with the promise of another vote. I.e. what they should have done in the first place.

I know the uncertainty is hugely damaging, but time is probably the only cure. if we can find a stable position then things should improve. The value of the pound certainly goes up any time it looks like Brexit is not going to happen. There is always going to be a Eurosceptic side, but in terms of actual numbers we must pretty much be at or past the high point now.

I think an actual benefit of PR would be bringing some brexit MP's into parliament. They'd end up being under a lot more scrutiny than when they can just bay from the sidelines.