South African players overseas

First topic message reminder :

In recent weeks I’ve read articles concerning South African rugby, in particular their increasing player drain to clubs in Europe and Japan. Bulls alone are set to lose 6 internationals (3 of them lock forwards) to overseas teams after the World Cup, but we know it’s not just their top players being targeted. It is also their uncapped youngsters and the up & coming players; some of which perhaps targeted for that specific reason given that we are seeing more South Africans represent other countries in rugby. South Africa produces some class players every year and I imagine they’re more affordable than ABs, hence why we might be seeing a lot of them overseas.

I’ll post the articles in the comment section below. I was also interested to know who was playing and where, so we can also perhaps start an ongoing list. We can start with our own teams before moving on to the French teams... Please also include players formerly eligible for SA; examples include:
CJ Stander. South African, signed for Munster and qualified for Ireland via residency. Capped by Ireland.
Paul Willemse. South African-Namibian, first signed for Grenoble before moving to Montpellier and qualified for France via residency. Capped by France.
You may include some more recent past players.

Dragons: Brok Harris, Tiaan Loots
Blues: George Earle (set to move on)
Ospreys: Tom Botha, Hanno Dirksen(?)
Scarlets: Werner Kruger, Uzair Cassiem, David Bulbring (moving onto Japan)

We have Farrell, Ford, Cipriani and Smith as the unquestioned starters at fly half for their clubs when available. Others that are first choice or there or thereabouts are Burns at Bath and Simmonds at Exeter.

How many starting English fly halves do you think is the minimum required to be able to select adequately for the England squad?

And to be fair mikey it's either going to be ford farrell or cirpriani. Then you go to the youngster given chances like smith and Simmonds. Even goode. If you're getting that level of injury status you're going to notice it no matter what you're depth.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So who are these players they are keeping out. Who should be being given a chance and why doesn't jones just select them if they are good enough?

I do not know who they are keeping out, their English equivalents I would presume. Who in turn do not get selected because they are not good enough, I hope that answers that question, as you are not being very clear.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumably you think England should be riding much higher in the rankings you hold dear?

Yes, 100%. A country with England's resources should be as good, or better than everybody else.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Do.you not think it really has limited impact given England still have an abundance of quality too many players already there for limited spaces?

Obviously you do not have an abundance of quality as you are shipping in NEQ players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not like we have 4 teams then clubs signing the likes ofnunderholl or Morgan as relatively recent english examples. Wales would struggle. England with all their clubs? No.

Sorry, I cannot answer this, as I do not understand, or comprehend what you are trying to say.

BamBam wrote:We have Farrell, Ford, Cipriani and Smith as the unquestioned starters at fly half for their clubs when available. Others that are first choice or there or thereabouts are Burns at Bath and Simmonds at Exeter.

Ford and Cipriani are not that good in my opinion. Farrell is a pretty decent fly half though, even if he is a little underwhelming, a bit like Dan Biggar, but weaker in defence. Simmonds I do like the looks of, but is he ready for international rugby yet ?

So you dont know if any foreign players are keeping out people good enough for internationals.
Not sure how much better we'll get but theres certainly loads of talent coming in and more potential for the guys already settled.
You're confusing england the international team with clubs.
And the last point if england only had 4 clubs and those clubs were picking underhill s and morgans it would be more of an issue than having the amount of clubs we do and picking guys like williams.

Yikes if ford and cipriani arent good enough there a shed loads of teams with sub par players. Including the number 2 ranked side in the world.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And the last point if england only had 4 clubs and those clubs were picking underhill s and morgans it would be more of an issue than having the amount of clubs we do and picking guys like williams.

Sorry, look, I honestly do not mean to be rude, I honestly do not, but I do not know what point you are trying to make here. I do not understand what you are saying.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yikes if ford and cipriani arent good enough there a shed loads of teams with sub par players. Including the number 2 ranked side in the world.

I would not pick either of those over Anscombe, Biggar or Patchell.

The simple point of is that england arent limited to picking from 4 clubs (and the side steps wales take for picking foreign based players). Then Wales were blocking welsh players by picking underhill or Morgan it could have been issue linger term. Given english clubs are more numerous it's going to take a helluva lot of players to start and impact us. At the moment it's not coming close.
And lol at picking any of those over ford.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yikes if ford and cipriani arent good enough there a shed loads of teams with sub par players. Including the number 2 ranked side in the world.

I would not pick either of those over Anscombe, Biggar or Patchell.

Which is your prerogative. I however would have Ford over any of those 3 any day of the week. If he had been replaced by pretty much any 10 in the game last season we would have been relegated.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The simple point of is that england arent limited to picking from 4 clubs (and the side steps wales take for picking foreign based players). Then Wales were blocking welsh players by picking underhill or Morgan it could have been issue linger term.  Given english clubs are more numerous it's going to take a helluva lot of players to start and impact us. At the moment it's not coming close.
And lol at picking any of those over ford.

So you are trying to say it is less of an issue for England as you have more room to go around. OK, fine, but that is not really my point.

Everyone on here knows my stance about non qualified players, I do not want to go over that one again. But you could have picked better examples than those two. Ben Morgan was more or less Welsh qualified by the time England capped him, and Underhill was not even on Englands radar until Ospreys developed him, it's not as though we were shipping in ready made players here.

Obviously it is impacting England though, as the two nations with only 4 teams to pick from are ranked higher.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yikes if ford and cipriani arent good enough there a shed loads of teams with sub par players. Including the number 2 ranked side in the world.

I would not pick either of those over Anscombe, Biggar or Patchell.

Which is your prerogative. I however would have Ford over any of those 3 any day of the week. If he had been replaced by pretty much any 10 in the game last season we would have been relegated.

He might have been great for Leicester, but Leicester did not have a very good season, did they ? Also, I cannot remember him doing much in the last 6N, but wasn't Farrell the starting 10 during that campaign ?

Well maes point originally had people like make Billy and Manu excluded hence we can't really count guys who didn't qualify for Wales at any point.again not really bothered by rankings dont see them as a definitive show of how good a team is. Yo come back your point about england being held back by clubs imports who are the fly half being kept out of their respective teams who you consider better than ford and Cipriani?

No 7&1/2 wrote: Yo come back your point about england being held back by clubs imports who are the fly half being kept out of their respective teams who you consider better than ford and Cipriani?

Well Eddie Jones doesn't think Cipriani is good enough:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49071208

Jones doesn't think Cipriani is good enough, or Jones doesn't think a 3rd fly half is the best use of a spot in the 31 man squad and knows he has Slade as an emergency option at 10?

BamBam wrote:Jones doesn't think Cipriani is good enough, or Jones doesn't think a 3rd fly half is the best use of a spot in the 31 man squad and knows he has Slade as an emergency option at 10?

He has not picked him over other players.If he was the all conquering player that you would have us believe, he would be in. I will leave it at that.

This is painful. Which English fly halfs are being kept out of their clubs starting 15s bu foreign players and why would that affect jones not picking then ld?

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Jones doesn't think Cipriani is good enough, or Jones doesn't think a 3rd fly half is the best use of a spot in the 31 man squad and knows he has Slade as an emergency option at 10?

He has not picked him over other players.If he was the all conquering player that you would have us believe, he would be in. I will leave it at that.

I didn't say he was all conquering. I just said that he is one of the English qualified fly halves who is a surefire starter for his club, and is an option available to select for England

That he isn't quite as good as Farrell and Ford is no disgrace

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yikes if ford and cipriani arent good enough there a shed loads of teams with sub par players. Including the number 2 ranked side in the world.

I would not pick either of those over Anscombe, Biggar or Patchell.

Which is your prerogative. I however would have Ford over any of those 3 any day of the week. If he had been replaced by pretty much any 10 in the game last season we would have been relegated.

He might have been great for Leicester, but Leicester did not have a very good season, did they ? Also, I cannot remember him doing much in the last 6N, but wasn't Farrell the starting 10 during that campaign ?

Yes Leicester were abysmal last season which is why Ford is so highly rated. If he can perform so well behind that shambles of a pack then he's one hell of a player. England didn't come away with the 6N did they. Ford didn't have the best summer tour to SA so has been playing catch up, I wouldn't be surprised to see Eddie experiment with a Ford/Farrell/Manu midfield in the warm up games before the world cup.

There's a good conveyor belt of English 10s coming through at the minute. It'll be interesting to see which ones make it, particularly the ones with famous names.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yikes if ford and cipriani arent good enough there a shed loads of teams with sub par players. Including the number 2 ranked side in the world.

I would not pick either of those over Anscombe, Biggar or Patchell.

Which is your prerogative. I however would have Ford over any of those 3 any day of the week. If he had been replaced by pretty much any 10 in the game last season we would have been relegated.

He might have been great for Leicester, but Leicester did not have a very good season, did they ? Also, I cannot remember him doing much in the last 6N, but wasn't Farrell the starting 10 during that campaign ?

Yes Leicester were abysmal last season which is why Ford is so highly rated. If he can perform so well behind that shambles of a pack then he's one hell of a player. England didn't come away with the 6N did they. Ford didn't have the best summer tour to SA so has been playing catch up, I wouldn't be surprised to see Eddie experiment with a Ford/Farrell/Manu midfield in the warm up games before the world cup.

There's a good conveyor belt of English 10s coming through at the minute. It'll be interesting to see which ones make it, particularly the ones with famous names.

There’s a couple welsh ones there too. One of them just joined Northampton academy. I’m not sure if all of them were exiles though. I’m happy for them to be in a good system so long as they come home .

Personally speaking but I didn’t think overseas players really damaged the England team, and the focus at the clubs is still on EQ players. Perhaps less so for Sale, LI, and Bristol who are trying to stay up/get in the top 6. A similar situation has certainly been hurting the France team for a few years now, but I feel I’m also straying away from the subject here.

Munster, always thought that they were smart in their purchasing of South Africans. Some of the lesser known guys who turn out to be really good;
Lock: Jean Kleyn
Back row: Arno Botha
Back row: Chris Cloete

Botha is the only one capped. There was also CJ Stander but we already know about him.

Not sure how accurate this is but has South Africa at 650k players compared to England 340k and France 360k.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rugby_union_playing_countries

When there are only 8 top teams there is always going to be a massive exodus as supply far exceeds demand.  Add in that White South African's are generally big people there will always be demand for them.

It’s wiki, it can’t be that accurate. They had the number of registered players for each playing nation on the old irb website. I’m not sure if they do now that the format has changed. That is a lot of players though. It could be a case of guys playing for enjoyment like we see at pub level in Wales, as well semi-pro.

Still waiting on the detail from you LD.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still waiting on the detail from you LD.

For what ?

Which English fly halfs are being kept out of their clubs starting 15s bu foreign players and why would that affect jones not picking then ld?
Not sure you've really touched upon the cipriani situation since your attempted wum either? May have missed that though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which English fly halfs are being kept out of their clubs starting 15s bu foreign players and why would that affect jones not picking then ld?
Not sure you've really touched upon the cipriani situation since your attempted wum either? May have missed that though.

Go and look for yourself.

This comes across as you don't know any detail and can't back up your view on this. My view is quite clear that this isnt an issue for england as it would be for wales. You say it is but cant provide anything other than generalisations that it must be.
That's ignoring your misunderstanding about what people were saying in relation to cipriani.

No 7&1/2 wrote:This comes across as you don't know any detail and can't back up your view on this. My view is quite clear that this isnt an issue for england as it would be for wales. You say it is but cant provide anything other than generalisations that it must be.
That's ignoring your misunderstanding about what people were saying in relation to cipriani.

I'm sorry but you seem to be fabricating something up to turn the debate in your direction. I have agreed that it isn't as big an issue for England as it would be with Wales. I suggest you either need to read through this topic again to remind yourself of the conversation, or that you do know what has been said and that you are being all you again.

I'd hate to misrepresent you after you did the same to me on your first post on this thread.
You said the situation of the foreign players in the prem cant be good for the national side. Everyone is saying it's not really impacted us at all. Have you come round to this opinion? Have you got any detail at all to reinforce your view? If players like ford and cipriani arent really that good presumably your thoughts are that there are players better being kept put of teams by foreigners. Who are they?

I'm.assuming you just want to love on from cipriani point though as that was weak.
Sort for me being me though. I know youd rather not be questioned on your points as they dont stand up to much.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You said the situation of the foreign players in the prem cant be good for the national side.

No I didn't. I said it's a point worth considering.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If players like ford and cipriani arent really that good presumably your thoughts are that there are players better being kept put of teams by foreigners. Who are they?

I haven't said they are being kept out by foreigners. I have said, that I do not think they are very good. Ford almost got relegated with Leicester, and Eddie Jones himself has not deemed Cipriani good enough.


Look, I am being honest here, I do not mean to demean you in any way, but you really need to keep up. Are you honestly being this ignorant to what I have said on here ? Or are you deliberately trying to convince yourself, and other that I have said these things to suit yourself ?

Your quote is here LD. 'Well there are welsh players playing for English clubs, in key positions that will not be playing for England for a start, not to mention players from other countries, like this thread has suggested, South African taking up key positions, it cannot be good for the national side.'

Now if this isnt what you think and you get annoyed when people then question your position it may be best not to type it out.

It doesn't demean me by you showing limited capacity for discussion LD. You're now trying to say that if you play for a poorer than average team all the players there are poorer than average. A kid knows that s not true so I have to ask myself why you're doing things like that.
Limited understanding of squad number limits add to that.

You're not stupid so why are saying silly things?

Who are these players who are being denied by foreigners. Why would jones not pick them?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ok. That's great. And? Is this you saying that France and england are suffering international woes due to clubs playing foreigners. Cant see it for england.

It's a point worth considering, non qualified players in key positions at the English clubs.

This is the reply I am talking about.

After you had already asserted you felt it's an issue. If you're now not sure that's fine.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your quote is here LD. 'Well there are welsh players playing for English clubs, in key positions that will not be playing for England for a start, not to mention players from other countries, like this thread has suggested, South African taking up key positions, it cannot be good for the national side.'

Now if this isnt what you think and you get annoyed when people then question your position it may be best not to type it out.

How is having players in key positions at clubs in England that cannot represent England good for the national side ? I can't be. I agree, it is not as much of a problem if Wales adopted the same agenda, as we have less clubs, but that is not the point.

LordDowlais wrote:

I haven't said they are being kept out by foreigners. I have said, that I do not think they are very good. Ford almost got relegated with Leicester, and Eddie Jones himself has not deemed Cipriani good enough.

Given that the Leicester fans on here are fairly equivocal that Ford is the reason they didn't get relegated, I'm not sure that is a strong argument.

In Cipriani's case, has Jones deemed him not good enough, or not good enough to be worthy of a spot over Farrell/Ford in a 31 man squad? If a football team had 2 excellent goalkeepers, would the 1 not selected for the 1st 11 be not good enough, or just not quite better than the competition given there's only 1 spot available? Or should the manager force him into the line up somewhere because he is an excellent goalkeeper anyway

So which is it LD as you dont want to be misrepresented. Is it an issue or not? If it is an issue could you answer the questions of which players you think are being kept out of the england set up (presumably those you think are good enough) and why would jones ignore them.

I mean that's the question bam. If you have limited resources and arent chosen it can be a strong indicator you're not very good. If you have an abundance of talent not so much.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So which is it LD as you dont want to be misrepresented. Is it an issue or not? If it is an issue could you answer the questions of which players you think are being kept out of the england set up (presumably those you think are good enough) and why would jones ignore them.

It's a point worth considering. That's what I am saying, and that is what I am standing by, now if you want to consider it then fine, I will debate it with you, but please stop misquoting me.

You see it's pretty hard to complain on people misrepresenting your views when you refuse to be clear in what you mean and indeed flip flap between 2 points. Pretty clear question: do you believe it's an issue or not?

The only quote by the way was a direct lift on what you said. No misquoting.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You see it's pretty hard to complain on people misrepresenting your views when you refuse to be clear in what you mean and indeed flip flap between 2 points. Pretty clear question: do you believe it's an issue or not?  

I could be.

So you dont know. Great. Now that's clear.

The people here seem in the majority (and know the clubs and players involved) to be saying its not an issue.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see how having players that cannot represent England, in key positions at the clubs could not be a problem.

Perhaps, with all the potential there is in England, if they were not using NEQ players, in multiple key positions, at the clubs in the league, England would be where New Zealand are. Number one ranked team by a distance, but they are not. They are 4th, behind countries with a lot less resources.

Just saying, and it's a point worth considering.

Have you considered that the NEQ players have increased the standards of the league, and that an EQ fly half who has had to compete with the likes of Nick Evans, or in Marcus Smith's case was at the same club, may have learnt a few things and is now a better player for it?

There is no benefit having 12 EQ fly halves starting for their sides if they are all 6/10 players at international level. We would rather have three options with the potential to be 9/10s than 12 who are decidedly worse, and if having NEQ players is helping drive that on, then I'm all for it

BamBam wrote:Have you considered that the NEQ players have increased the standards of the league, and that an EQ fly half who has had to compete with the likes of Nick Evans, or in Marcus Smith's case was at the same club, may have learnt a few things and is now a better player for it?

There is no benefit having 12 EQ fly halves starting for their sides if they are all 6/10 players at international level. We would rather have three options with the potential to be 9/10s than 12 who are decidedly worse, and if having NEQ players is helping drive that on, then I'm all for it

Yes I agree, that is a fair point. But if we are being honest here, are all the NEQ players in England of this ilk ? Not all of them in Wales are, and by God we have signed some dross over the years. Even some with the "potential" to be Welsh.

And another flip flap. So you do think it's an issue then. Or do you not know (again). Without a clear position I'm being accused of misrepresenting or Mia quoting you LD. As you did that to me in your first post here I'd like to avoid doing it back as much as I can hence my questions.
It sounds like you're saying it must be but without any detailed knowledge on whether it is: hence you dont know.