England World Cup Warm Ups

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England Wales 11th August
Wales England 17th August
England Ireland 24th August
England Italy 6th September.

Squad for the world cup is due 2nd September so theres a chance the 1st 3 could be used for selection purposes and likely to see some combos not considered 1st choice.

BBC saving me typing:

England: Daly; McConnochie, Slade, Francis, Watson; Ford, Heinz; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Ewels, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Singleton, Marler, Williams, Kruis, Ludlam, Youngs, Marchant, Cokanasiga.

Wales: L Williams; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owens, Francis, Beard, Jones, Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Dee, Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, T Williams, Biggar, Watkin.

McConnochie is definitely out alongside Nowell and Slade. This makes our backs options much easier to pick, as there are fewer to select from.

This leaves us with backs options as below (minutes played against Wales in brackets)

Youngs (69)
Heinz (91)
Ford (141)
Farrell (28)
Tuilagi (25)
Francis (126)
Joseph (159)
Watson (150)
Cokanasiga (160)
May (0)
Daly (160)

Suggests we're due Farrell, Tuilagi and May from the start, possibly Youngs as well. We then need an option at 13, 14 and 15. If it were me I'd probably go Daly at 13, Cokanasiga at 14 and Watson at 15 to trial a slightly different set up but one that could be forced during a game.

I'd then probably have Heinz, Ford and Joseph on the bench with Francis the odd man out. Then we can trial Ford / Farrell / Tuilagi at some point in the second half.

Forwards we're near enough a clean bill of health.

Who's the next cab in the rank wing wise is nowell and McConnochie are not available for the wc? Ashton, Solomona. Perhaps eddie has seen NFL and is in discussions with wadey!

Yoda wrote:Who's the next cab in the rank wing wise is nowell and McConnochie are not available for the wc? Ashton, Solomona. Perhaps  eddie has seen NFL and is in discussions with wadey!

If just one is ruled out, then quite possibly we will see the replacement coming from elsewhere on the pitch. If both are ruled out then with teh four remaining back 3 players all arguably better wingers than anything else, we would probably see Brown come in. After that perhaps Thorley as unlike Ashton and Solomona he was included in training squads earlier in teh summer.

Yoda wrote:Who's the next cab in the rank wing wise is nowell and McConnochie are not available for the wc? Ashton, Solomona. Perhaps  eddie has seen NFL and is in discussions with wadey!

If it comes to that then I bloody well hope it's Brown. We need a proper fullback.

Option of using Joseph as emergency wing cover and adding a player somewhere else too

Poorfour wrote:

Yoda wrote:Who's the next cab in the rank wing wise is nowell and McConnochie are not available for the wc? Ashton, Solomona. Perhaps  eddie has seen NFL and is in discussions with wadey!

If it comes to that then I bloody well hope it's Brown. We need a proper fullback.

Seconded. Although I agree with LT that it's more likely to be somewhere else on the field and "fill-in" on the wing. Daly has done very little in the warm-ups to settle my nerves about having him as our primary fullback.

Rinsure wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Yoda wrote:Who's the next cab in the rank wing wise is nowell and McConnochie are not available for the wc? Ashton, Solomona. Perhaps  eddie has seen NFL and is in discussions with wadey!

If it comes to that then I bloody well hope it's Brown. We need a proper fullback.

Seconded. Although I agree with LT that it's more likely to be somewhere else on the field and "fill-in" on the wing. Daly has done very little in the warm-ups to settle my nerves about having him as our primary fullback.

Maybe, but he's been no more shaky than in his previous outings at 15. Unless Jones was banking on a late uptick in ability, then there's nothing he's done here that will rule him out IMO.

Aye. Eddie has decided that what he brings (the "x-factor" as outlined in an article posted to here yesterday) outweighs the shortcomings.

robbo277 wrote:Maybe, but he's been no less shaky than in his previous outings at 15. Unless Jones was banking on a late uptick in ability, then there's nothing he's done here that will rule him out IMO.

He's been a little better - was more competitive for the early high balls. My bigger worry is that Wales knew how to exploit his defensive fragility. It will be interesting to see if Ireland have worked him out as well. Though I doubt it will change anything unless there's an injury that rules someone out of the RWC.

I'd like to see how a May/Daly/Watson trio would do under a high ball barrage

That looks like our first choice at the moment, none of them are dominant in the air but all have shown they can secure the high ball, would having those two either side of Daly offer a bit more aerial presence there?

Poorfour wrote:

robbo277 wrote:Maybe, but he's been no less shaky than in his previous outings at 15. Unless Jones was banking on a late uptick in ability, then there's nothing he's done here that will rule him out IMO.

He's been a little better - was more competitive for the early high balls. My bigger worry is that Wales knew how to exploit his defensive fragility. It will be interesting to see if Ireland have worked him out as well. Though I doubt it will change anything unless there's an injury that rules someone out of the RWC.

Sorry, meant to say no MORE shaky. I.e. it's not like he's dipped in performance. Eddie has seen him offer this at International level before and seems happy that he's found what he's after, at least when stacked up against the alternatives.

As LT says, Eddie is happy his plus points outweigh his shortcomings. As his shortcomings haven't worsened, it's unlikely Eddie's opinion of him would have soured, so I'd say it's very unlikely we'd see Brown, even if Nowell or McConnochie was ruled out.

BamBam wrote:I'd like to see how a May/Daly/Watson trio would do under a high ball barrage

That looks like our first choice at the moment, none of them are dominant in the air but all have shown they can secure the high ball, would having those two either side of Daly offer a bit more aerial presence there?

A little harsh on Watson, who I think was competitive under the high ball against Wales, who are among the best in the business at the moment. But since the intent seems to be to use Watson as a winger...

Wales's recent success has been built on defence. They may well be the most obdurate defensive unit in world rugby right now, and they have won a lot of games they could have lost by simply not conceding points.

England's defence is currently a form of attack: when they turn it on they're so aggressive that they force errors and turnovers. But it's got holes in it, especially if a team can get the ball out wide in the red zone.

Yeah maybe slightly harsh on Watson, I was thinking of Daly's known weakness and May has always been better chasing attacking kicks than defending against high balls. I still think that is our best back 3, would really like to see Watson at FB and Daly on the wing against Ireland to test it out as an option

Ireland certainly tested Watson at FB at Twickenham last year. On that occasion he was found a wanting - thought the kicking was good, forcing him to turn. It is much easier if you can run forwards and jump for those defensive balls, but that is hard to do when the kicking side can compete for the ball and the defending player is on the back foot.

LondonTiger wrote:Ireland certainly tested Watson at FB at Twickenham last year. On that occasion he was found a wanting - thought the kicking was good, forcing him to turn. It is much easier if you can run forwards and jump for those defensive balls, but that is hard to do when the kicking side can compete for the ball and the defending player is on the back foot.

Which brings us back to Brown. The defensive aspects of fullback are all about being in the right place at the right time, and Brown is streets ahead of any of the other candidates else in that regard. I just don't understand why Eddie values that so little. I could understand having Daly or Watson as the primary option but taking Brown for games against teams we know will use the high ball.

Maybe that's what McConnochie is supposed to bring - positioning matters even more in 7s. But until we see him in action...

I posted this on the Wales thread (because mikey_dragon claimed that Eddie did not know what his first choice squad was), but it belongs here and I'd be interested to see if there are any big points of disagreement:

I think, with a couple of quibbles, most fans would guess that his preferred XXIII is:
Mako George Sinckler
Itoje Kruis
Wilson Billy Curry
Youngs Farrell
Manu Slade
May Daly Nowell

Marler Cowan-Dickie Cole
Lawes Underhill
Heinz Ford Watson

You could make a case for starting Marler, swapping the locks (and Launchbury) around, putting Francis over Ford and for JJ or Cokanasiga as the final bench spot. Many of those are horses for courses type choices; the core of the team is pretty clear.

As I see it, he's only got a handful of selection problems left:
- How many of his flankers will actually be fit at any point in time.
- Who is the backup to Billy at 8 (by default it's Wilson - but that puts a huge load on a guy who will be playing a lot)
- Getting a proper fullback out of the players he's picked.

Its very close to what I'd assume Eddie would pick, as well as being almost exactly what I would go for.

I'd love to see how a Billy/Curry/Underhill back row would work, and want to see Watson at FB, but other than that I wouldn't question that line up one bit if we managed to put it out in our big games

Not 100% sure that Nowell would be ahead of Watson - especially if Watson is in the form pre-injury.

From what I have seen, o am nit sure that either Kruis or Itoje are ahead of Lawes either. Neither have done a lot in the time they have had.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:From what I have seen, o am nit sure that either Kruis or Itoje are ahead of Lawes either. Neither have done a lot in the time they have had.

In Eddie's head I suspect they are his first choice pairing, especially considering that Lawes I think has only played back row so far.

Kruis is seen as the anchor for the setpiece, but on current form I would not mind seeing Lawes ahead of Itoje

Lawes and Kruis partnering one another is certainly something I hope to see over the next two warm-ups. If Curry, Underhill and Vunipola play in the back row together it would be a useful option for sure.

Given the club partnership that George, Itoje and Kruis have I would expect them to start at full strength with Lawes on the bench. I just as happily see Lawes start but he has had greater impact from the bench than the other three locks in my opinion. I think his carrying tends to standout more when coming on as a substitute.

Marler and Mako could be back in a matchday 23 together against Ireland which will be great to see.

If I was to try the impossible and predict a Jones XV then I might put Ford-Farrell-Tuilagi in the midfield. With Ford playing well against Wales I think he might give Farrell a game at 12. It's a tactic I could see him using to close out games when Ford comes off the bench.

Predicting Eddie is foolish, but we do need our 1st choice side to have a decent hit out in these warm up matches. Plus all those who have not started need game time. Therefore I would like to see Marler, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Itoje, Underhill, Billy, Curry, Youngs, Farell, Manu, JJ, May, Daly, Watson.
Bench: Mako, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Lawes, Wilson, Heinz, Ford, Joe.

Then more of a mix and match in the final warm up game. No longer can we protect players. They all need a decent hit out.

Te'o is off to Toulon so if there were an injury to Tuilagi now I'm guessing someone like Devoto may have a strong chance. Him and Brown must have got both barrels from Jones if hes walked away before the wc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Te'o is off to Toulon so if there were an injury to Tuilagi now I'm guessing someone like Devoto may have a strong chance. Him and Brown must have got both barrels from Jones if hes walked away before the wc.

Also need to take into account that he is not currently being paid by anyone. This way he gets a few months pay and keeps himself in the shop window for whatever the next move turns out to be.

With Marchant on the standby list Te'o will know he was down the list.

It's been widely reported that Te'o instigated the brawl so quite possible he's borne more of the brunt from the coaches than Brown.

If Nowell or McConnonchie are ruled out I could see Brown being called up.

Were a centre injured then Jones could realistically call up a player to cover elsewhere as Farrell can cover 12 and Daly 13.

Brown's version seems to be that he wasn't drinking and told Te'o to calm down, and got punched for his concern.

If that is the case, I would be both surprised and disappointed if it was used as an excuse to drop him. I think it's more likely that Te'o was behaving that way in reaction to having seen the writing on the wall in the selections, while Brown still theoretically had a chance.

Given the fitness concerns about both the back row and back three, I wouldn't be surprised to see at least one call up from the reserve list. And I would be quite relieved if fate forced Eddie's hand.

Assuming the team for Sat is announced today... I'm thinking likely 1pm?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Seriously though I hope watson plays there against ireland, dominates and offers plenty of counter attacking. If jones has highlighted speed of the full back as a priority nowell does not tick the box.

Watson was pretty ropey at 15 for England last time he was there. Imo he's better as a 2nd 15 on the wing, less pressure and more chance of a cross kick to him.

BamBam wrote:We're all passionate fans and get wrapped up in the competitiveness of the game, so for me this was a thought provoking read

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/19/kearnan-myall-england-players-mental-health-training-camp

That's the second time this week I've seen ex players talk about how amateur a lot of the coaching is from coaches who grew up in the amateur game and still carry all that (out of date) ethos with them.

yappysnap wrote:

BamBam wrote:We're all passionate fans and get wrapped up in the competitiveness of the game, so for me this was a thought provoking read

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/19/kearnan-myall-england-players-mental-health-training-camp

That's the second time this week I've seen ex players talk about how amateur a lot of the coaching is from coaches who grew up in the amateur game and still carry all that (out of date) ethos with them.

What was the first?

Watson is a class winger. Watson is a better full back than daly while still having the key skills jones is looking for.

The thing I think Watson is missing that Daly has is the ability to come into the line and create that overlap opportunity, I've said it plenty of times but I really think Daly is one of the best around at just picking his moment and giving the winger (normally May!) a free run in

Watson may well be able to do it, but I see him more as a finisher than having that little bit of extra creativity, maybe that's what Eddie prefers with Daly

It might just be that Daly has that skill from all his time at centre, while Watson has always primarily been a winger

BamBam wrote:The thing I think Watson is missing that Daly has is the ability to come into the line and create that overlap opportunity, I've said it plenty of times but I really think Daly is one of the best around at just picking his moment and giving the winger (normally May!) a free run in

Watson may well be able to do it, but I see him more as a finisher than having that little bit of extra creativity, maybe that's what Eddie prefers with Daly

It might just be that Daly has that skill from all his time at centre, while Watson has always primarily been a winger

Fair analysis, and I'd agree that's what Jones really values in Daly. Does this better than Watson, Brown, anyone we have really.

Shame Daly is rotten under the high ball.

TightHEAD wrote:Shame Daly is rotten under the high ball.

It's not just the high ball. A good fullback controls the space at the back and limits the options for the opposition by their positioning off the ball. If they are standing in the right place they can force a running attack into a specific channel or reduce the odds of a successful kick chase to the point where it's not an option. Daly simply doesn't do that. He doesn't seem to have the innate positional sense.

I think the last time I saw Watson at fullback was in the provincial games on the Lions tour, but I thought he was very promising. His positioning was consistently good enough that he looked like an option for the tests (though with Williams and Halfpenny available it's not surprising that he wasn't - even though Williams' high ball performance was dire).

Watson doesn't have Daly's reading of space in attack - but it's quite possible for them to shift around when it's on.

(For what it's worth - i.e. close to zero - Brown had that positional aspect nailed pretty much from his Quins debut as a teenager. He was so obviously a top class fullback that he was pretty much first choice from his first game. And for a fun game, rewatch the squad announcement and count how many of the England clips show Brown on the shoulder of the featured player.)

Just spotted this, which is as close as you will get from World Rugby to "Monsieur Gauzere ballsed it up."

Immediate Law Change

Does that take us into Scottish Moral Victory territory?

It was just obviously a gap in the laws which hadn't been considered when bringing through new safety laws. I'm glad it's been done as as i said after the game I wouldn't want any coaches delaying checks or players coming off to ensure that the defence is set.
It's just coincidence that it always happens to us!

Poorfour wrote:Just spotted this, which is as close as you will get from World Rugby to "Monsieur Gauzere ballsed it up."

Immediate Law Change

Does that take us into Scottish Moral Victory territory?

At least it didn't happen to you in a 6n game. Remember Wales' illegal quick lineout v Ireland when they weren't allowed to do it?

Also it isn't the first time World Rugby has made a rule change after an England game. Remember England v Italy? Does Eddie Jones have a bat phone to Bill Beaumont in world rugby?

That was just a bad mistake from the officials. Harsh to point the finger this time. Just one of those things.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That was just a bad mistake from the officials. Harsh to point the finger this time. Just one of those things.

Was it really a mistake if they have changed to rules after the game?

You can say it's a mistake from an admin point of view in the respect there was a gap in the laws. For the official (s) I the game they shouldn't really be having to make stuff up as they go along.

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:That was just a bad mistake from the officials. Harsh to point the finger this time. Just one of those things.

Was it really a mistake if they have changed to rules after the game?

Common sense says if you call time off and a player is being taking off for a mandatory HIA you shouldn't restart the game until a replacement has come onto the pitch. If it wasn't written down then it was a mistake by the lawmakers not to and a mistake by the referee to not apply this common sense. No great harm done though and all cleared up now before the main event.

In other news I see that James Haskell has signed for......wait for it...……….

Bellator the MMA fighting organisation. Look forward to watching him fight.

Poorfour wrote:Just spotted this, which is as close as you will get from World Rugby to "Monsieur Gauzere ballsed it up."

Immediate Law Change

Does that take us into Scottish Moral Victory territory?

It was an unwritten/gentlemanly rule and not very sporting to restart the game, the Ref did balls it up. We all knew it.

IRELAND: Rob Kearney; Jordan Larmour, Garry Ringrose, Bundee Aki, Jacob Stockdale; Ross Byrne, Conor Murray; Cian Healy, Rory Best, Tadhg Furlong; Iain Henderson, Jean Kleyn; Peter O’Mahony, Josh van der Flier, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Sean Cronin, Jack McGrath, Andrew Porter, Devin Toner, Tadhg Beirne, Luke McGrath, Jack Carty, Andrew Conway.

Strong team. If England do go down the route of a mixture of starters and b players you might fancy a couple of quid on ireland to go to number 1.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Strong team. If England do go down the route of a mixture of starters and b players you might fancy a couple of quid on ireland to go to number 1.

England will have to be on their game to beat that side, even at HQ. With the slight caveat that Ireland need to get back on the horse after their 6 Nations

Other than Ryan and Sexton, is that more or less the best starting line up available?

The English forwards will be far too strong for Ireland.

I do not know why, but the six nations game in Cardiff, the Welsh forwards dominated the Irish, but the same forwards had to fight against the English forwards who, in my opinion shaded it over the last two games.