England World Cup Warm Ups

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Don't expect the snazzy pics produced on better match threads!

England Wales 11th August
Wales England 17th August
England Ireland 24th August
England Italy 6th September.

Squad for the world cup is due 2nd September so theres a chance the 1st 3 could be used for selection purposes and likely to see some combos not considered 1st choice.

BBC saving me typing:

England: Daly; McConnochie, Slade, Francis, Watson; Ford, Heinz; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Cole, Launchbury, Ewels, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Singleton, Marler, Williams, Kruis, Ludlam, Youngs, Marchant, Cokanasiga.

Wales: L Williams; North, J Davies, Parkes, Adams; Anscombe, G Davies; Smith, Owens, Francis, Beard, Jones, Wainwright, Tipuric, Moriarty.

Replacements: Dee, Jones, Lewis, Ball, Shingler, T Williams, Biggar, Watkin.

BamBam wrote:Other than Ryan and Sexton, is that more or less the best starting line up available?

Toner, Henshaw and Earls too. Leavy injury.

Leavy definitely a big miss, are the other 3 starters in the first choice line up? Pretty similar to England in that you could pick a few decent locks, Aki / Ringrose / Henshaw all offer different skillsets, I guess Earls usually starts if fit

Id say Henshaw is marginally ahead of Aki. Toner is definitely a starter. Schmidt has picked him more than any other player for Ireland.

England team:

Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Curry, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Tuilagi, Cokanasiga, Daly
Cowan-Dickie, Vunipola, Cole, Lawes, Wilson, Heinz, Francis, Joseph

As close to full strength as we've seen so far. Still probably not quite there.

Billy starts for the third week in a row. Tempting fate, perhaps? Looks a tasty back row, one we've all been looking to see for a while...

A return to the Ford-Farrell axis, and Manu at 13.

Mako on the bench.

Eddie you are making me sweat in these games. Billy V again?

Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

So what point are trying to make ? Do you want the score overturned and the game stricken from history and for Wales to go back to 2nd in the world rankings ?

Good team, yikes.

Rinsure wrote:Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

Can Francis play there? In an emergency?

Sorry I do not know how this has happened, I was just replying on the Wales thread.

LordDowlais wrote:Sorry I do not know how this has happened, I was just replying on the Wales thread.

HIA for LordDowlais.

Can we play on?

Rinsure wrote:Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

Ford or Farrell, both have played there in similar situations, possibly Francis, not seen him at 15, but can play 10, has no problems under the high ball, just not sure about positioning.

robbo277 wrote:

Rinsure wrote:Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

Can Francis play there? In an emergency?

Jonny May has played 15 and arguably is better under the high ball than Daly.

Sharkey06 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Rinsure wrote:Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

Can Francis play there? In an emergency?

Jonny May has played 15 and arguably is better under the high ball than Daly.

The only thing with that is who's your winger if May goes to 15? Joseph? Makes it a double change with 78 minutes gone and two players out of position.

robbo277 wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Rinsure wrote:Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

Can Francis play there? In an emergency?

Jonny May has played 15 and arguably is better under the high ball than Daly.

The only thing with that is who's your winger if May goes to 15? Joseph? Makes it a double change with 78 minutes gone and two players out of position.

Good point, but is probably more of a comment on Eddie's bench selection. I would be happier with May at fullback and Joseph on the wing than vice versa.

Also Manu has International wing experience .......

Sharkey06 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Rinsure wrote:Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

Can Francis play there? In an emergency?

Jonny May has played 15 and arguably is better under the high ball than Daly.

The only thing with that is who's your winger if May goes to 15? Joseph? Makes it a double change with 78 minutes gone and two players out of position.

Good point, but is probably more of a comment on Eddie's bench selection.  I would be happier with May at fullback and Joseph on the wing than vice versa.

Yeah it's not an ideal test bench. His only other option is Watson and he'd be a much better shout than picking both centres. But Eddie is prone to doing strange things.

Most likely event is Daly plays the 80 though, truth be told.

robbo277 wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Rinsure wrote:Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

Can Francis play there? In an emergency?

Jonny May has played 15 and arguably is better under the high ball than Daly.

The only thing with that is who's your winger if May goes to 15? Joseph? Makes it a double change with 78 minutes gone and two players out of position.

Good point, but is probably more of a comment on Eddie's bench selection.  I would be happier with May at fullback and Joseph on the wing than vice versa.

Yeah it's not an ideal test bench. His only other option is Watson and he'd be a much better shout than picking both centres. But Eddie is prone to doing strange things.

Most likely event is Daly plays the 80 though, truth be told.

Fingers crossed then.  I am trying not to get too worked up about these games as they are only warm ups for the World Cup, but I don't see the benefit of running Billy V in particular into the ground.  We know he is irreplaceable in the squad and the risk if he gets injured is we play a no 6 in Wilson out of position or throw in Dombrandt with virtually no experience.  But I am sure Eddie knows best.

There will be a real test for England in the line-out, even with the ridiculously tall Toner on the bench. Ireland have 3 front-line options to England's 2, although with George, Itoje and Kruis England have 3 Saracens at the heart of their line out who should have a good understanding. Eddie has spoken about this area and addressed it before, and it seems like he's deliberately set out to put the line out under stress this week.

The upshot of that is the breakdown work with two open sides has to get better. It can't get much worse than last week, truth be told. But this is a back row Eddie will definitely turn to at some point in Japan, either to start or finish games.

In the backs we've got what is actually a new look 10/12/13, although all the players are familiar. It's the first time Manu has had a proper run at 13 since coming back into international selection and it is a return to the 10/12 that led England Under 20s to the Junior World Cup Final and England seniors to a Grand Slam and a World Record equalling run of wins - their first start together for a year. With Te'o out the squad and now in Toulon, the squad is more balanced if you consider instead of 2x fly halves and 4x centres we have 4x 5/8s and 2x outside centres, because we have the 4 playmakers and then Tuilagi or Joseph as the 13s - offering different threats but neither as a "hit it up" centre.

Those are probably the main areas of interest. Is Daly "safer" at 15 with Sexton not on the pitch?

robbo277 wrote:consider instead of 2x fly halves and 4x centres we have 4x 5/8s and 2x outside centres, because we have the 4 playmakers and then Tuilagi or Joseph as the 13s - offering different threats but neither as a "hit it up" centre.

Agree with virtually all of that, Robbo, but you're considering Slade as a 5/8? I know he's covered 10 before, but has he ever played 12?

I like the look of that team. Its the perfect chance to try out the midfield and back row combinations. Ireland have put out a team strong enough to be a barometer of whether both could work in the biggest games, I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes

Looks like Daly is here to stay at FB, if not trying Watson in this game I can't imagine it'll happen in the tournament. Just another game to get under his belt in that position, the Irish always have a good aerial game and in Stockdale/Kearney two very good chasers who'll put pressure on him

Good for May to get a run out, and very happy to see Mako back fit enough for a place on the bench, hopefully that means he'll be ready to start against Italy. I share the concerns about Billy starting 3 games in a row, but realistically he's going to have to do at least that in the tournament, and we can't really try this flanker pairing with Wilson at 8.

'and we can't really try this flanker pairing with Wilson at 8' Why Bam; fitness concerns?

Wilson isn't fully fit for one, but even if he was I wouldn't want to see it. I think that flanker pairing needs Billy to add his bulk and carrying game, especially when we're also missing Mako up front

Just think for the dual openside approach to work we need our strongest carriers elsewhere in the pack.

What's Curry like in the lineout? He looks light enough to throw up there like Tipuric is used for Wales with a single lifter, but depends what his hands are like I guess

Rinsure wrote:

robbo277 wrote:consider instead of 2x fly halves and 4x centres we have 4x 5/8s and 2x outside centres, because we have the 4 playmakers and then Tuilagi or Joseph as the 13s - offering different threats but neither as a "hit it up" centre.

Agree with virtually all of that, Robbo, but you're considering Slade as a 5/8? I know he's covered 10 before, but has he ever played 12?

I'm pretty sure he has, but not for a few years; in any case, Slade has all the skills to be a 2nd 5/8ths style 12; just lacks the bulk to be a crash ball.

But lots of options by position:
10 - Ford, Farrell, Francis, Flade (sorry, Slade)
12 - Farrell, Francis, Manu, potentially Slade
13 - Slade, Manu, Joseph, Daly, even Farrell at a pinch.

The pack looks pretty interesting, and this is closer to what I expect the pointy end starting XV to be than we've seen so far. I imagine given that the Italy game is going to be a hard one to lose, Eddie will want to sign off on a high, so I expect England to be up for this.

It's the usual list of key contests, though: scrum, lineout, breakdown, high ball, and can England's intensity break down Ireland's structure.

Rinsure wrote:

robbo277 wrote:consider instead of 2x fly halves and 4x centres we have 4x 5/8s and 2x outside centres, because we have the 4 playmakers and then Tuilagi or Joseph as the 13s - offering different threats but neither as a "hit it up" centre.

Agree with virtually all of that, Robbo, but you're considering Slade as a 5/8? I know he's covered 10 before, but has he ever played 12?

Didn't Slade make his debut at 12 Vs the Baabaas? He's played against the Pumas at 12.

BamBam wrote:

What's Curry like in the lineout? He looks light enough to throw up there like Tipuric is used for Wales with a single lifter, but depends what his hands are like I guess

Curry jumps for Sale so he must be passably good.

That's promising, hopefully they've been using him as a back row jumping option in training. After posting the above I went and looked, he's actually heavier than Underhill!

As any amateur rugby player without the benefit of video analysis on your opposition will tell you, the tell-tale sign will be if he comes out in lifting blocks. Image searched "Tom Curry England" and saw plenty of photos of him wearing blocks, so he's considered an option even if he doesn't normally get used.

No 7&1/2 wrote:'and we can't really try this flanker pairing with Wilson at 8' Why Bam; fitness concerns?

More that playing two opensides with a flanker at 8 is a little too lightweight.

Poorfour wrote:

Rinsure wrote:

robbo277 wrote:consider instead of 2x fly halves and 4x centres we have 4x 5/8s and 2x outside centres, because we have the 4 playmakers and then Tuilagi or Joseph as the 13s - offering different threats but neither as a "hit it up" centre.

Agree with virtually all of that, Robbo, but you're considering Slade as a 5/8? I know he's covered 10 before, but has he ever played 12?

I'm pretty sure he has, but not for a few years; in any case, Slade has all the skills to be a 2nd 5/8ths style 12; just lacks the bulk to be a crash ball.

But lots of options by position:
10 - Ford, Farrell, Francis, Flade (sorry, Slade)
12 - Farrell, Francis, Manu, potentially Slade
13 - Slade, Manu, Joseph, Daly, even Farrell at a pinch.

The pack looks pretty interesting, and this is closer to what I expect the pointy end starting XV to be than we've seen so far. I imagine given that the Italy game is going to be a hard one to lose, Eddie will want to sign off on a high, so I expect England to be up for this.

It's the usual list of key contests, though: scrum, lineout, breakdown, high ball, and can England's intensity break down Ireland's structure.

Don't forget Nowell if fit, played 13 for Chiefs to great effect.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Rinsure wrote:

robbo277 wrote:consider instead of 2x fly halves and 4x centres we have 4x 5/8s and 2x outside centres, because we have the 4 playmakers and then Tuilagi or Joseph as the 13s - offering different threats but neither as a "hit it up" centre.

Agree with virtually all of that, Robbo, but you're considering Slade as a 5/8? I know he's covered 10 before, but has he ever played 12?

I'm pretty sure he has, but not for a few years; in any case, Slade has all the skills to be a 2nd 5/8ths style 12; just lacks the bulk to be a crash ball.

But lots of options by position:
10 - Ford, Farrell, Francis, Flade (sorry, Slade)
12 - Farrell, Francis, Manu, potentially Slade
13 - Slade, Manu, Joseph, Daly, even Farrell at a pinch.

The pack looks pretty interesting, and this is closer to what I expect the pointy end starting XV to be than we've seen so far. I imagine given that the Italy game is going to be a hard one to lose, Eddie will want to sign off on a high, so I expect England to be up for this.

It's the usual list of key contests, though: scrum, lineout, breakdown, high ball, and can England's intensity break down Ireland's structure.

Don't forget Nowell if fit, played 13 for Chiefs to great effect.

And was playing very impressive at 15 for Exeter inthe GP final v Saracens until his injury.

He was indeed GF, looked a natural.

True. Nowell can cover 13, 14 and 15. May can cover 11 and 15, sometimes at the same time. Daly can cover 13.

So after picking your RWC squad and losing, this weekend is a must win which explains why he's gone for a very exciting looking side in attack.

Why? It's a warm up match for the WC. Nice to win but no big deal if you dont as long as the preparation helps.

I suppose if you're looking for pure bulk underhill curry and wilson would be a much lighter lineup than last week granted but infinitely better in my eyes.

robbo277 wrote:

Sharkey06 wrote:

robbo277 wrote:

Rinsure wrote:Wilson back from injury onto the bench too.

Interesting bench for the backs. If Daly goes down in the second minute, who goes to 15?

Can Francis play there? In an emergency?

Jonny May has played 15 and arguably is better under the high ball than Daly.

The only thing with that is who's your winger if May goes to 15? Joseph? Makes it a double change with 78 minutes gone and two players out of position.

This is May. He can cover both positions at the same time

Actually it's only a small step up for him to cover both wings and full back, remember Argentina, in getting from wing to wing he will have to go past the position the full back would be. Simples, well if you are Jonny May.

Only real improvement I see is Watson over Cokanasiga and possibly Slade over Farrell...its a great side....England expects.

I am not sure why all the dislike for Daly "under the high ball". I think to use that as a general excuse is wrong - when he's on his own under a Garryowen he's actually pretty solid. It's when he's under pressure with another player going for the ball at the same time that he falters, and his positioning as previously stated is not as good as it should be. His one on one tackling is also poor - he should have flattened Davies in week 1.

Eddie though loves his creativity from his own 22, so I think it'll take either an injury or a monumental game-changing balls up to shift him from there. Jones has made his mind up on Daly - he's already got 2-3 excellent 13s (injury permitting) and 3-4 well-established wingers and wants Daly to play a part in the team so 15 is where he puts him. I don't think he's a good full-back (at least from an International point of view) but as a creative back 3 player, there are few better. That is what Eddie seems to be focussing on. Brown doesn't have the speed (also not in the squad) and Watson is only recently back from injury, with Nowell still a little off. Ain't no other fit players in the squad with International experience there.

Poorfour wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Ireland certainly tested Watson at FB at Twickenham last year. On that occasion he was found a wanting - thought the kicking was good, forcing him to turn. It is much easier if you can run forwards and jump for those defensive balls, but that is hard to do when the kicking side can compete for the ball and the defending player is on the back foot.

Which brings us back to Brown. The defensive aspects of fullback are all about being in the right place at the right time, and Brown is streets ahead of any of the other candidates else in that regard. I just don't understand why Eddie values that so little. I could understand having Daly or Watson as the primary option but taking Brown for games against teams we know will use the high ball.

Maybe that's what McConnochie is supposed to bring - positioning matters even more in 7s. But until we see him in action...

From watching House of Rugby, Browns being left out is almost totally down to what ever happened on that team social with Te'o. Annoying really as he would be very useful with so many shaky fullbacks in our squad.

BamBam wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

BamBam wrote:We're all passionate fans and get wrapped up in the competitiveness of the game, so for me this was a thought provoking read

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/19/kearnan-myall-england-players-mental-health-training-camp

That's the second time this week I've seen ex players talk about how amateur a lot of the coaching is from coaches who grew up in the amateur game and still carry all that (out of date) ethos with them.

What was the first?

On House of Rugby, Haskell, Flannery and Robshaw all mention very amateur coaching at some clubs and Int level with too much focus on beating players up and over training them just "because we've always done it".

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why? It's a warm up match for the WC. Nice to win but no big deal if you dont as long as the preparation helps.

sure...you win a game, then pick your squad and lose the next 2....makes no diff at all. Its a huge game they must win. end of

Why?

Certainly a do not want to lose game. No more a must win match than last week for Wales. Sure some naughty posters suggested it would be the end of the world for Wales to lose, but it would not have been. Of course they won....... 

I am at this game and want a strong performance, and yes want a win. However this is not a win at all costs game. Winning but losing a key player or two to injury would be very much a pyrrhic victory.

Poorfour wrote:True. Nowell can cover 13, 14 and 15. May can cover 11 and 15, sometimes at the same time. Daly can cover 13.

Dont forget flanker...hes a strong scrummager...

yappysnap wrote:

BamBam wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

BamBam wrote:We're all passionate fans and get wrapped up in the competitiveness of the game, so for me this was a thought provoking read

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/19/kearnan-myall-england-players-mental-health-training-camp

That's the second time this week I've seen ex players talk about how amateur a lot of the coaching is from coaches who grew up in the amateur game and still carry all that (out of date) ethos with them.

What was the first?

On House of Rugby, Haskell, Flannery and Robshaw all mention very amateur coaching at some clubs and Int level with too much focus on beating players up and over training them just "because we've always done it".

Could that be a dig at Jones?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

BamBam wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

BamBam wrote:We're all passionate fans and get wrapped up in the competitiveness of the game, so for me this was a thought provoking read

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/aug/19/kearnan-myall-england-players-mental-health-training-camp

That's the second time this week I've seen ex players talk about how amateur a lot of the coaching is from coaches who grew up in the amateur game and still carry all that (out of date) ethos with them.

What was the first?

On House of Rugby, Haskell, Flannery and Robshaw all mention very amateur coaching at some clubs and Int level with too much focus on beating players up and over training them just "because we've always done it".

Could that be a dig at Jones?

No, it wasn't. Haskell and Robshaw couldn't speak highly enough of Jones. They both praised his man management, saying he was very good at working out how to motivate players. They also rate Borthwick.

It would be a well deserved dig at Leicester training.