Brexit

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Tea anyone?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Shifty wrote:...so they forced it upon people a lot of the countries that were gullible enough to jump off a cliff.

I didn't know that. How did they force it on people? The individual governments of those countries joined without consulting the people?

I was about to suggest you pick up a copy of Norman Lamont's book "in office", it was released in the late 90's long before any of this mess. I bought mine before the referendum off Amazon for £2.81, and £2.80 of that was p+p, sadly when trying to make my point I often say read the book that was published before single currency came about because that way it's proof that everyone knew in advance what was going to happen, knew the consequences, and did it anyway. Sadly i've possibly said this so much on news websites and forums that you now can't get it for less than £16!

A lot of countries joined the ERM and it had massive consequences for everyone, you can watch the Black Wednesday documentary on YouTube to see how it happened. My parents lost their house during that mess. It was the proof that the Euro wouldn't work, despite this many domestic politicians forced this policy on their voters, and Tony Blair wanted to do this to Britain. He even offered to let Gordon Brown become Prime Minister if he would let Tony join the Euro.

This is also a fantastic debate that took place in 1991.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOQB3_L7X3U

Essentially Richard Branson saying how rich it will make him and benefit his aeroplane company, obviously today he lives on his own island off Canada.

While on the other side of it you have the head of the Steel workers warning thousands upon thousands of skilled and well paid jobs will be lost in areas that cannot afford to lose them... Well only Port Talbot is left today, and every other old steel works is now a housing estate, places to live and no where to work!

When you say they forced it on the voters - in what way was it forced? Surely it was simply a decision made by a democratically elected government?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Shifty wrote:...so they forced it upon people a lot of the countries that were gullible enough to jump off a cliff.

I didn't know that. How did they force it on people? The individual governments of those countries joined without consulting the people?

Basically yes, it started with Denmark and France, Denmark rejected the Maastricht Treaty, hence never joined the currency, France got a 51% win, with a majority of about 400,000. After this pretty much everyone realised that if the single currency was done on the basis of a peoples vote across Europe the currency would never happen. Hence why countries simply joined the Euro without asking their populations.

Britain was going to have a people vote on the Maastricht Treaty, but John Major decided to do it via their MP's instead as they knew the people would never pass it.

So basically every decision that a government makes that is not expressly stated in their election manifesto is forced on the population?

It is an odd world we live in.

The Tories have been in power now for nine years with Brexit splitting the country. If we look at the Timeline then Leavers should not vote Tory in the next GE. Why?

Well it was a Tory government that pressed the UK to join the EEC in 1972. People are now bemoaning the UK's lack of steelworks and coal mines and shipyards which is totally of the Tory governments of the 1980s and 1990s doings. And now it is a Tory government who is dragging the UK incompetently towards Brexit.

Boy oh boy the Tories have a lot to answer for.

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is an odd world we live in.

The Tories have been in power now for nine years  with Brexit splitting the country. If we look at the Timeline then Leavers should not vote Tory in the next GE. Why?

Well it was a Tory government that pressed the UK to join the EEC in 1972. People are now bemoaning the UK's lack of steelworks and coal mines and shipyards which is totally of the Tory governments of the 1980s and 1990s doings. And now it is a Tory government who is dragging the UK incompetently towards Brexit.

Boy oh boy the Tories have a lot to answer for.

So, nothing at all with cheap Chinese labour? Nothing to do with the fact that Korea and Japan could produce ships at higher productivity levels and at better cost? Nothing to do with cheaper coal or steel from elsewhere? Nothing to do with the Union nonsense of the 70s in the UK? Of course, the Tories had control over what other Nations were able to do etc. Always 100% their fault for everything. Everywhere. In the entire Universe.

Also, are you suggesting that the Tories' drive to get the UK into the EEC was a bad thing now? Thought you were pro-EU? Come on, be consistent.

Hmm so why is the UK the only country to have had those industries oblitetated. Are you saying other countries weren't to be affected by what you say are the reasons the Tories closed those industries down.

Do keep up I have always said I am ambivalent about the EU. However a No Deal Brexit is just crazy.

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is an odd world we live in.

The Tories have been in power now for nine years  with Brexit splitting the country. If we look at the Timeline then Leavers should not vote Tory in the next GE. Why?

Well it was a Tory government that pressed the UK to join the EEC in 1972. People are now bemoaning the UK's lack of steelworks and coal mines and shipyards which is totally of the Tory governments of the 1980s and 1990s doings. And now it is a Tory government who is dragging the UK incompetently towards Brexit.

Boy oh boy the Tories have a lot to answer for.

People are still bemoaning the death hazard that were coal mines? The closures were also started by Harold Wilson in the 1960's (significant numbers of mining jobs were lost during 1964-1970) and were not reopened when Labour came back into power in 1997, aside from that I think you got everything else wrong too.

I see Dominic Raab has been going around this morning, denying any knowledge of the GE that his government has already briefed the press on.

Good stuff.

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is an odd world we live in.

The Tories have been in power now for nine years  with Brexit splitting the country. If we look at the Timeline then Leavers should not vote Tory in the next GE. Why?

Well it was a Tory government that pressed the UK to join the EEC in 1972. People are now bemoaning the UK's lack of steelworks and coal mines and shipyards which is totally of the Tory governments of the 1980s and 1990s doings. And now it is a Tory government who is dragging the UK incompetently towards Brexit.

Boy oh boy the Tories have a lot to answer for.

People are still bemoaning the death hazard that were coal mines? The closures were also started by Harold Wilson in the 1960's (significant numbers of mining jobs were lost during 1964-1970) and were not reopened when Labour came back into power in 1997, aside from that I think you got everything else wrong too.

I am talking about the mass closures here. And another to throw in the mix was Doctor Beeching's cuts to many railway lines across the UK. Of course another Tory act. In recent years we have seen a number of those lines either re-open or are actively being campaigned to be re-opened.

The mass closures started under Harold Wilson, his Labour government closed more mines than Thatcher's Conservatives, you do have to factor in importance of individual mines which sways towards the Tories but it wasn't a problem solely of their doing. The job loses were debilitating and are still felt in some areas today but the industry was failing and required a huge public bailout that would have affected many more. I'm not condoning the closures but there were reasons why it happened as there were with the Steel industry.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm so why is the UK the only country to have had those industries oblitetated. Are you saying other countries weren't to be affected by what you say are the reasons the Tories closed those industries down.

Do keep up I have always said I am ambivalent about the EU. However a No Deal Brexit is just crazy.

Simple. We aren't the only ones. Go speak to the Rust Belt in the US about steel etc. You ignore productivity cf. Japan/Korea etc, but that doesn't fit your narrative does it? I agree it's not as simple as I might imply, but neither is it solely the fault of the Tories in the UK.

If you said much of interest away from SNP this and SNP that, I'd bother to 'keep up'. By the way, how does this fit your independence droning:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17869349.snps-currency-plan-could-spark-200bn-economic-crisis/

Pr4wn wrote:I see Dominic Raab has been going around this morning, denying any knowledge of the GE that his government has already briefed the press on.

Good stuff.

Has he figured out where Dover and Calais are yet?

Britain has become a Country with a strong service sector and little else...While I'm a strong believer in Unions they have to take some of the blame.....Far easier and less hassle to get things made elsewhere...

Problem is though a strong service sector based economy leaves the South thriving and the North struggling..

If anyone think HS2 will change anything heaven help you..

Services jobs are also fabulously easy to move to another country,

Soul Requiem wrote:Mps voting against the membership should be deselected, that's just basic common sense.

Mps are there to represent Constituencies...

The Tories got 17m votes in 2017...They only have a 100,000 members..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Britain has become a Country with a strong service sector and little else...While I'm a strong believer in Unions they have to take some of the blame.....Far easier and less hassle to get things made elsewhere...

Problem is though a strong service sector based economy leaves the South thriving and the North struggling..

If anyone think HS2 will change anything heaven help you..

Massive waste of money, I struggle to see any benefit of HS2 whatsoever.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm so why is the UK the only country to have had those industries oblitetated. Are you saying other countries weren't to be affected by what you say are the reasons the Tories closed those industries down.

Do keep up I have always said I am ambivalent about the EU. However a No Deal Brexit is just crazy.

Simple. We aren't the only ones. Go speak to the Rust Belt in the US about steel etc. You ignore productivity cf. Japan/Korea etc, but that doesn't fit your narrative does it? I agree it's not as simple as I might imply, but neither is it solely the fault of the Tories in the UK.

If you said much of interest away from SNP this and SNP that, I'd bother to 'keep up'. By the way, how does this fit your independence droning:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17869349.snps-currency-plan-could-spark-200bn-economic-crisis/

I am surprised that you'd expect anything less from a union-backing newspaper. And the man making this claim is working alongside Gordon Brown - a man who will defend the union as he knows his precious Labour would never venture into power again at Westminster without Scottish seats potentially backing them up.

SNP will go in with Labour.....So it isn't the end of the World 'Scotland' for Labour..

9 confirmed rebels today apparently.......Most cabinet members in the last Govt....9 more considering..

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm so why is the UK the only country to have had those industries oblitetated. Are you saying other countries weren't to be affected by what you say are the reasons the Tories closed those industries down.

Do keep up I have always said I am ambivalent about the EU. However a No Deal Brexit is just crazy.

Simple. We aren't the only ones. Go speak to the Rust Belt in the US about steel etc. You ignore productivity cf. Japan/Korea etc, but that doesn't fit your narrative does it? I agree it's not as simple as I might imply, but neither is it solely the fault of the Tories in the UK.

If you said much of interest away from SNP this and SNP that, I'd bother to 'keep up'. By the way, how does this fit your independence droning:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17869349.snps-currency-plan-could-spark-200bn-economic-crisis/

I am surprised that you'd expect anything less from a union-backing newspaper. And the man making this claim is working alongside Gordon Brown - a man who will defend the union as he knows his precious Labour would never venture into power again at Westminster without Scottish seats potentially backing them up.

In other words - "Project Fear" and "we've had enough of experts".

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm so why is the UK the only country to have had those industries oblitetated. Are you saying other countries weren't to be affected by what you say are the reasons the Tories closed those industries down.

Do keep up I have always said I am ambivalent about the EU. However a No Deal Brexit is just crazy.

Simple. We aren't the only ones. Go speak to the Rust Belt in the US about steel etc. You ignore productivity cf. Japan/Korea etc, but that doesn't fit your narrative does it? I agree it's not as simple as I might imply, but neither is it solely the fault of the Tories in the UK.

If you said much of interest away from SNP this and SNP that, I'd bother to 'keep up'. By the way, how does this fit your independence droning:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17869349.snps-currency-plan-could-spark-200bn-economic-crisis/

I am surprised that you'd expect anything less from a union-backing newspaper. And the man making this claim is working alongside Gordon Brown - a man who will defend the union as he knows his precious Labour would never venture into power again at Westminster without Scottish seats potentially backing them up.

My Irony-o-meter is going crazy!

If there's one man in politics who know what he's talking about with regards to the economy it's Gordon Brown.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm so why is the UK the only country to have had those industries oblitetated. Are you saying other countries weren't to be affected by what you say are the reasons the Tories closed those industries down.

Do keep up I have always said I am ambivalent about the EU. However a No Deal Brexit is just crazy.

Simple. We aren't the only ones. Go speak to the Rust Belt in the US about steel etc. You ignore productivity cf. Japan/Korea etc, but that doesn't fit your narrative does it? I agree it's not as simple as I might imply, but neither is it solely the fault of the Tories in the UK.

If you said much of interest away from SNP this and SNP that, I'd bother to 'keep up'. By the way, how does this fit your independence droning:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17869349.snps-currency-plan-could-spark-200bn-economic-crisis/

I am surprised that you'd expect anything less from a union-backing newspaper. And the man making this claim is working alongside Gordon Brown - a man who will defend the union as he knows his precious Labour would never venture into power again at Westminster without Scottish seats potentially backing them up.

That's your answer? I couldn't care less about the paper. What about the claims made? No comment? Didn't think so. Moving on...

Soul Requiem wrote:If there's one man in politics who know what he's talking about with regards to the economy it's Gordon Brown.

Maybe, but he still stuffed it up.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm so why is the UK the only country to have had those industries oblitetated. Are you saying other countries weren't to be affected by what you say are the reasons the Tories closed those industries down.

Do keep up I have always said I am ambivalent about the EU. However a No Deal Brexit is just crazy.

Simple. We aren't the only ones. Go speak to the Rust Belt in the US about steel etc. You ignore productivity cf. Japan/Korea etc, but that doesn't fit your narrative does it? I agree it's not as simple as I might imply, but neither is it solely the fault of the Tories in the UK.

If you said much of interest away from SNP this and SNP that, I'd bother to 'keep up'. By the way, how does this fit your independence droning:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17869349.snps-currency-plan-could-spark-200bn-economic-crisis/

I am surprised that you'd expect anything less from a union-backing newspaper. And the man making this claim is working alongside Gordon Brown - a man who will defend the union as he knows his precious Labour would never venture into power again at Westminster without Scottish seats potentially backing them up.

That's your answer? I couldn't care less about the paper. What about the claims made? No comment? Didn't think so. Moving on...

You must have lead a very sheltered life. Newspapers, for as long as they have existed, have had their own political agenda as have other media outlets. That being the case I question the source/agenda behind the claims made by people evidently with a union bias. Scaremongering worked to a massive degree in 2014 and now it is hitting home to Scots who were told voting No was the only way to protect their place in the EU. Oh dear.

I have posted on here time and time again and said if Scotland were to gain independence there would be tough years ahead financially - I am under no illusion of that. However, the UK with a No Deal Brexit most certainly and probably one with even deals done means equally tough years ahead financially for Scots. That is two financially gloomy roads ahead until stabilisation. One offers independence and self-governing with Scots choosing who governs them and what choices they make in this world. The other offers remaining being shackled to shambolic Westminster governments that Scotland has not voted for ad nauseum with no power to choose what path Scotland takes in this world. No contest.

So you get all your information from pro independent sources and ignore everything else?

Soul Requiem wrote:So you get all your information from pro independent sources and ignore everything else?

No. Experience tells me though whose soundbytes are believable and whose are not.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:So you get all your information from pro independent sources and ignore everything else?

No. Experience tells me though whose soundbytes are believable and whose are not.

Right... So you don't base information and knowledge on it's merits but based upon whether it suits your agenda or not? Definitely seems the way to come to a balanced conclusion.

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:So you get all your information from pro independent sources and ignore everything else?

No. Experience tells me though whose soundbytes are believable and whose are not.

Right... So you don't base information and knowledge on it's merits but based upon whether it suits your agenda or not? Definitely seems the way to come to a balanced conclusion.

Like I said I have experienced too much scaremongering and outright lies in the last few years from certain sources which then makes those sources far less creditable. Why believe habitual liars or scaremongers? Once bitten twice shy.

Dear oh dear...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm so why is the UK the only country to have had those industries oblitetated. Are you saying other countries weren't to be affected by what you say are the reasons the Tories closed those industries down.

Do keep up I have always said I am ambivalent about the EU. However a No Deal Brexit is just crazy.

Simple. We aren't the only ones. Go speak to the Rust Belt in the US about steel etc. You ignore productivity cf. Japan/Korea etc, but that doesn't fit your narrative does it? I agree it's not as simple as I might imply, but neither is it solely the fault of the Tories in the UK.

If you said much of interest away from SNP this and SNP that, I'd bother to 'keep up'. By the way, how does this fit your independence droning:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17869349.snps-currency-plan-could-spark-200bn-economic-crisis/

I am surprised that you'd expect anything less from a union-backing newspaper. And the man making this claim is working alongside Gordon Brown - a man who will defend the union as he knows his precious Labour would never venture into power again at Westminster without Scottish seats potentially backing them up.

That's your answer? I couldn't care less about the paper. What about the claims made? No comment? Didn't think so. Moving on...

You must have lead a very sheltered life. Newspapers, for as long as they have existed, have had their own political agenda as have other media outlets. That being the case I question the source/agenda behind the claims made by people evidently with a union bias. Scaremongering worked to a massive degree in 2014 and now it is hitting home to Scots who were told voting No was the only way to protect their place in the EU. Oh dear.

I have posted on here time and time again and said if Scotland were to gain independence there would be tough years ahead financially - I am under no illusion of that. However, the UK with a No Deal Brexit most certainly and probably one with even deals done means equally tough years ahead financially for Scots. That is two financially gloomy roads ahead until stabilisation. One offers independence and self-governing with Scots choosing who governs them and what choices they make in this world. The other offers remaining being shackled to shambolic Westminster governments that Scotland has not voted for ad nauseum with no power to choose what path Scotland takes in this world. No contest.

I'll ignore the first, but fair play on your last paragraph. I disagree that smaller is better/safer in the modern world, but each to their own.

Soul Requiem wrote:Dear oh dear...

Quite.

Soul Requiem wrote:Dear oh dear...

Well my dear chap it certainly is not Holyrood having lawsuits from various sources being placed against it today - it is Westminster. Says it all really.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Dear oh dear...

Well my dear chap it certainly is not Holyrood having lawsuits from various sources being placed against it today - it is Westminster. Says it all really.

Wow, that's proven me wrong.

30 Tory rebels now apparently...Govt likely to ask Parliament to vote for a GE tomorrow.

Philip Lee defects to Lib Dems, Johnson loses his working majority.

This is all playing directly into Johnsons hands and progressing how he wants it to, the more parliament is seen to be blocking Brexit the easier it will be to win a general election, all the Tory rebels get deselected and he's then able to progress how he wants.

He'll only get an election if he guarantees he won't do a No Deal Brexit before then.

Boris could:
-Give in to Corbyn's demand of letting this anti no-deal Brexit through.
-Then pledge to reverse this bill when he wins election.
-Call election for mid October, present Labour as party of delay
-Win election (maybe majority with DUP and BP)
-Reverse this bill.
-Leave EU 31st Oct as he was planning to.

In fact I have a feeling all these defeats and absurd behaviour from the Tories is a set up, to try and win over BP voters when it comes to an election.
Labour are Frak. Even today's good tactical move of not voting through an election immediately is terrible optics.

Terrible optics is kicking out respected Tories like Ken Clarke and losing heavily in your first test as PM...

People might have voted for Brexit but many didn't vote for No Deal.

Good day for Labour and the rest of the Parties in opposition.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:So you get all your information from pro independent sources and ignore everything else?

No. Experience tells me though whose soundbytes are believable and whose are not.

Right... So you don't base information and knowledge on it's merits but based upon whether it suits your agenda or not? Definitely seems the way to come to a balanced conclusion.

Like I said I have experienced too much scaremongering and outright lies in the last few years from certain sources which then makes those sources far less creditable. Why believe habitual liars or scaremongers? Once bitten twice shy.

Is this some kind of comedy sketch or are you two completely unaware of how hypocritical you both are?

Absolutely fantastic to wake up to Boris' shambolic display in the House yesterday. He was trapped. No longer able to bluster and BS his way out of it.

"We're making good progress" he says but when pushed for evidence he, of course, cannot come up with anything.

I'm not really one to sing the praises of Labour and Corbyn but they've got him right where they want him now. Boris is desperate for an election because it's the only way out for him. All Labour need to do is refuse any election until they receive watertight confirmation that the motion passed yesterday will be signed into law.

Boris, after all the lies, promises, arrogance and bluster, could yet be Britain's shortest-serving PM.

Pr4wn wrote:Absolutely fantastic to wake up to Boris' shambolic display in the House yesterday. He was trapped. No longer able to bluster and BS his way out of it.

"We're making good progress" he says but when pushed for evidence he, of course, cannot come up with anything.

I'm not really one to sing the praises of Labour and Corbyn but they've got him right where they want him now. Boris is desperate for an election because it's the only way out for him. All Labour need to do is refuse any election until they receive watertight confirmation that the motion passed yesterday will be signed into law.

Boris, after all the lies, promises, arrogance and bluster, could yet be Britain's shortest-serving PM.

Not the time to call a GE. Wait and see if the EU grant an extension first. Nothing to stop Johnson calling a GE then changing the date once parliament is dissolved.

They also already control the house and Johnson doesnt have a majority, why accept a GE now when Labour are pretty much in charge right now?

I’ll take that bet that Boris will be the shortest PM ever. It would be the best thing ever. He’s spent his whole career playing the game to get in No 10 and he’s about to become the victim of his own undoing.

Poetic.

Amazing how inept he is when he actually has to take responsibility for his actions.

The same with Rees-Mogg. It was amazing watching members of his own party rattle his cage during his speech last night. You reap what you sow.

Its also amazing to see how much power Parliament had after being told for so long it doesnt have any.

Soul Requiem wrote:This is all playing directly into Johnsons hands and progressing how he wants it to, the more parliament is seen to be blocking Brexit the easier it will be to win a general election, all the Tory rebels get deselected and he's then able to progress how he wants.

Pretty much. Yesterday strengthened his hand, supported his narrative and gave him more ammunition. The trend of the latest polls is the Tories extending their lead, and Labour getting closer to third than first. All Johnson needs now is to do a tactical deal with the Brexit Party to allow him to win a sizeable majority.

The Brexit Party have no MPs.

Johnson also won't be able to get a GE on his terms. He doesn't have control any more.

How you can take a day where Johnson literally lost control of the House as a positive for him is beyond me. Some serious gymnastics involved.

It takes a complete lack of understanding to not see how this played into his hands perfectly, he purges the party gets his general election and then has complete control.

It was a queen sacrifice played to perfection as far as he's concerned.

Pr4wn wrote:The Brexit Party have no MPs.

No, but they a pretty sizeable number of voters - about 3.7-4.7 million.

If Johnson gets BP candidates to stand down in areas where the Tories need to win seats - broadly speaking, southern England and the Midlands - and allows BP candidates a free run at Labour constituencies which the Tories have no hope of winning - mostly northern England and parts of Wales - then that would work out quite well for him.