Brexit

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Tea anyone?

Labour are doing the right thing..

Johnson has sworn Brexit will be sorted by 31st October..

An Election on 15th...Gets a big majority and Johnson is home.

Now he has to solve this riddle and keep Farage support on board..

Yes Labour will look weak for a few weeks but Oct 31 is judgement day and Johnson is still in the box.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Which reminds me of the No Deal paradox someone pointed out the other day: if a no-deal Brexit would so damaging to the EU that the government thinks the threat of it will make them compromise, how can the government expect us to believe there's nothing for us in the UK to fear from it?

Spoil sport! You've wrecked the game now...

The crux of this is that Johnson was shown to be completely untrustworthy in the eyes of the House of Commons. The whole reason that this vote took place was that nobody trusted Johnson to keep his word on not shifting the election date and obeying the will of Parliament to enact this new legislation.

Johnson asked for the House to take his word that he wouldn't move the goalposts, asked the House to trust that progress is being made on Brexit and he was completely humiliated for it. Losing your first three votes as PM is unheard of.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Labour are doing the right thing..

Johnson has sworn Brexit will be sorted by 31st October..

An Election on 15th...Gets a big majority and Johnson is home.

Now he has to solve this riddle and keep Farage support on board..

Yes Labour will look weak for a few weeks but Oct 31 is judgement day and Johnson is still in the box.

How does Corbyn agreeing to an election on October 15th do that?

Because Farage has said he doesn't trust Johnson to get us out on the 31st and his support for him is based on that..

Johnson's fault or not he needs votes from fellow bigots in his sister Brexit Party.

Absolutely No confidence in Boris from Westminster 'politicians'. He's proven to be a right eejit and an embarrassing one for the entire UK. Unfit for office, I should say verily!

Okay.... General Election then?


Hold on a sec now! Let's not be hasty.

All explained above, Secret.

It was plainly obvious to anyone that watched PMQs yesterday why a GE hasn't been agreed upon already.

I'm sorry that it doesn't fit your previously-decided-upon narrative.

SecretFly wrote:Absolutely No confidence in Boris from Westminster 'politicians'.  He's  proven to be a right eejit and an embarrassing one for the entire UK.  Unfit for office, I should say verily!

Okay.... General Election then?


Hold on a sec now!  Let's not be hasty.  

That's what Obama said (or suggested?) about DJT... so Boris' slovenly 'performances' of late might be a winner in the eyes of some.  Oh dear...

Or did they all say that about each other... Hillary too?

A general election hasn't been agreed because Labour know they can't win, they're unlikely to win one any time soon so are just delaying again.

We all know why a GE isn't wanted by the rebelling Parliament.  We're observers.  We ain't dumb.
The people are dangerous.  That was the consensus after the first Referendum.  The majority decision was proof positive that too much democracy is a bad thing and foolish voters must be protected from themselves.

On with the Parliamentarian Pantomime.  The world has become Gotham city when all the crazies got released.

Soul Requiem wrote:A general election hasn't been agreed because Labour know they can't win, they're unlikely to win one any time soon so are just delaying again.

Such a staggering lack of understanding of the situation. Did you watch any of the proceedings yesterday?

SecretFly wrote:
The people are dangerous.

How dare you talk about the great unrepresentative (and mostly unwashed) swill like that, you swine! They can't be that bad, can they?

Pal Joey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The people are dangerous.

How dare you talk about the great unrepresentative (and mostly unwashed) swill like that, you swine! They can't be that bad, can they?

Me's a pig too, sir - beggin' your pardon, Mr Sir Master Lordship Right Honorable Gentleman from Oz, sir.

SecretFly wrote:We all know why a GE isn't wanted by the rebelling Parliament.  We're observers.  We ain't dumb.
The people are dangerous.  That was the consensus after the first Referendum.  The majority decision was proof positive that too much democracy is a bad thing and foolish voters must be protected from themselves.

If 'remainers' (boo! hiss!) thought that, why would they be calling for a people's vote?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:We all know why a GE isn't wanted by the rebelling Parliament.  We're observers.  We ain't dumb.
The people are dangerous.  That was the consensus after the first Referendum.  The majority decision was proof positive that too much democracy is a bad thing and foolish voters must be protected from themselves.

If 'remainers' (boo! hiss!) thought that, why would they be calling for a people's vote?

Yes, the Remainer's do childishly boo and hiss a lot, Luckless, I agree. Hear them every night behind the news readers on the old RBBC.

Just have the election. Agree?

Pr4wn wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:A general election hasn't been agreed because Labour know they can't win, they're unlikely to win one any time soon so are just delaying again.

Such a staggering lack of understanding of the situation. Did you watch any of the proceedings yesterday?

Yes I did and that's what it boils down to, if they Labour thought they could get rid of the government they'd go for it and everything else falls into place how they want.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:We all know why a GE isn't wanted by the rebelling Parliament.  We're observers.  We ain't dumb.
The people are dangerous.  That was the consensus after the first Referendum.  The majority decision was proof positive that too much democracy is a bad thing and foolish voters must be protected from themselves.

If 'remainers' (boo! hiss!) thought that, why would they be calling for a people's vote?

Yes, the Remainer's do childishly boo and hiss a lot, Luckless, I agree.  Hear them every night behind the news readers on the old RBBC.

Just have the election.  Agree?

Not until it's guaranteed that we won't be leaving without a deal on Hallowe'en. That's what parliament has voted to try and ensure.

N.B (not that it should need it) Wanting to stop No Deal is not the same thing as wanting to stop Brexit altogether. It's really, really not. Most, if not all, of the 21 MPs deselected the other day voted consistently with the government for us to leave, but they won't tolerate leaving without a deal.

Labour don't know if they can win. Neither do the Tories.
Best interests of the country is to hold election after 31st October, to ensure the bill just passed by our sovereign Parliament does not get reneged upon, should the Tories win.

Interesting that BJ said this week he categorically doesn't want an election.
Also interesting that he said (paraphrasing) "Let's put it (Brexit) to the people." but doesn't want a Brexit referendum to put Brexit to the people.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Not until it's guaranteed that we won't be leaving without a deal on Hallowe'en. That's what parliament has voted to try and ensure.

N.B (not that it should need it) Wanting to stop No Deal is not the same thing as wanting to stop Brexit altogether. It's really, really not. Most, if not all, of the 21 MPs deselected the other day voted consistently with the government for us to leave, but they won't tolerate leaving without a deal.

Leaving with a Deal is what Boris wanted too...After the bear-trap (badly hidden in the rush to set it) Backstop guarantee is removed.  Simples, as the fecking Meerkats might say (but don't trust them either, they seem to be evil Russians too)

Anyway, Luckless.  It's all back to Backstop removal v GE.  Do the Parliamentary Rebels believe they have the Nation on their side? Ask the Nation to verify that belief.  Hell, even let the Lib Dems canvass on 'Remain'?

Everyone willing to put their opinions to the test again?  Election...for men who want to be men - even the women

The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Interesting that BJ said this week he categorically doesn't want an election.
Also interesting that he said (paraphrasing) "Let's put it (Brexit) to the people." but doesn't want a Brexit referendum to put Brexit to the people.

Well he shares a common belief system with Remainers who didn't even want to put the first Referendum to 'the people'.

Oops sorry.... I forgot that I heard Boris was a Remainer back then too.

So Remainers don't like Elections? Is that the conclusion?

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Not until it's guaranteed that we won't be leaving without a deal on Hallowe'en. That's what parliament has voted to try and ensure.

N.B (not that it should need it) Wanting to stop No Deal is not the same thing as wanting to stop Brexit altogether. It's really, really not. Most, if not all, of the 21 MPs deselected the other day voted consistently with the government for us to leave, but they won't tolerate leaving without a deal.

Leaving with a Deal is what Boris wanted too...After the bear-trap (badly hidden in the rush to set it) Backstop guarantee is removed.  Simples, as the fecking Meerkats might say (but don't trust them either, they seem to be evil Russians too)

Anyway, Luckless.  It's all back to Backstop removal v GE.  Do the Parliamentary Rebels believe they have the Nation on their side? Ask the Nation to verify that belief.  Hell, even let the Lib Dems canvass on 'Remain'?

Everyone willing to put their opinions to the test again?  Election...for men who want to be men - even the women

The government is a car crash. So far anybody actually paying attention to parliament is seeing that, but the media is still pushing the 'Corbyn is a coward' line. Keep the government in power for longer and not only will the honeymoon be over, it will get harder and harder to hide their total incompetence, and easier for wavering Tory MP's to 'grow a pair'. Much to gain by delaying the election for a few weeks.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

Pr4wn wrote:The crux of this is that Johnson was shown to be completely untrustworthy in the eyes of the House of Commons. The whole reason that this vote took place was that nobody trusted Johnson to keep his word on not shifting the election date and obeying the will of Parliament to enact this new legislation.

Johnson asked for the House to take his word that he wouldn't move the goalposts, asked the House to trust that progress is being made on Brexit and he was completely humiliated for it. Losing your first three votes as PM is unheard of.

And of course our EU friends say that they have not received anything at all new from Boris+co.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

Oh I don't dispute that. I was trying to explain why opposition MPs won't agree to a general election until it's nailed down that we won't be leaving without a deal on 31st October.

Jo Johnson has resigned as an MP and minister, "torn between family loyalty and the national interest"

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

For all the nonsense you post, this is on the money. There's no trust, anywhere, in our politics anymore and that's a big problem from now on and for some foreseeable time.

BamBam wrote:Jo Johnson has resigned as an MP and minister, "torn between family loyalty and the national interest"

Had to come. Was surprising he took the job in BJ's cabinet in the first place, given his avowed pro-EU stance etc.

lostinwales wrote: Keep the government in power for longer and not only will the honeymoon be over, it will get harder and harder to hide their total incompetence, and easier for wavering Tory MP's to 'grow a pair'. Much to gain by delaying the election for a few weeks.

Tell me this, in the middle of one of his daring-do tied-in-chains tricks, would Houdini have been the first man you called if you wanted to rob a bank at the very same time?

People aren't dumb.  I can't vouch for Politicians and political followers who obviously think that they are - but people know that if all power and influence to control events is removed from someone by a sect of people who have chained them up politically and legally, then few are going to fall for the crud that his impotence/incompetence is the result of his own actions.  Anti-Boris people will vote against him anyway, so they don't need the optics.  And the optics don't work on those that would/will vote for him.

Any election, whenever it's called, will give a people's view of the current shenanigans going on in Westminster.  Some people will vote for Corbyn because he helped put Boris in chains, some will vote for the Tory rebels who grew a pair and helped Corbyn wrap the chains...but there'll also be plenty that will wait to pay back the Tory dissenters who grew the pair at the polling stations.

SecretFly wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Interesting that BJ said this week he categorically doesn't want an election.
Also interesting that he said (paraphrasing) "Let's put it (Brexit) to the people." but doesn't want a Brexit referendum to put Brexit to the people.

Well he shares a common belief system with Remainers who didn't even want to put the first Referendum to 'the people'.

Oops sorry.... I forgot that I heard Boris was a Remainer back then too.

So Remainers don't like Elections?  Is that the conclusion?

Sure, if you want to make crazy assumptions to fit your own agenda, then yes it is.

Jo Johnson quits to spend less time with family?

BamBam wrote:Jo Johnson has resigned as an MP and minister, "torn between family loyalty and the national interest"

If only we had someone who knows BJ really well to indicate whether we can trust him or not. Oh wait....

I have the misfortune of having Jo Johnson as my MP and he's bloody useless, seen him once in Wetherspoons of all places with his brother trying to look like men of people.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

Oh I don't dispute that. I was trying to explain why opposition MPs won't agree to a general election until it's nailed down that we won't be leaving without a deal on 31st October.

So what happens if Boris now just sits on his hands? Sends no 'negotiators' (who are not allowed touch on EU unnegotiables) to Brussels, gives no guarantees to Parliament or the EU; just lets the clock tick towards 31st October?
I thought - correct me if wrong, by all mean - that the UK government must Request an extension rather than the EU imposing one externally?
So if Boris declares himself a lame duck PM, impeded by a Parliament makeup he will not acquiesce to, will not do deals with etc....what then? What would happen? Anybody know?

Soul Requiem wrote:I have the misfortune of having Jo Johnson as my MP and he's bloody useless, seen him once in Wetherspoons of places with his brother trying to look like men of people.

BJ made him a minister. Presumably you must think BJ's judgement is also bloody useless.

navyblueshorts wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

For all the nonsense you post, this is on the money. There's no trust, anywhere, in our politics anymore and that's a big problem from now on and for some foreseeable time.

Despite the nonsense you post, thanks

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

Oh I don't dispute that. I was trying to explain why opposition MPs won't agree to a general election until it's nailed down that we won't be leaving without a deal on 31st October.

So what happens if Boris now just sits on his hands?  Sends no 'negotiators' (who are not allowed touch on EU unnegotiables) to Brussels, gives no guarantees to Parliament or the EU; just lets the clock tick towards 31st October?

In other words he continues to do what he's been doing since he became PM - bugger all.

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote: Keep the government in power for longer and not only will the honeymoon be over, it will get harder and harder to hide their total incompetence, and easier for wavering Tory MP's to 'grow a pair'. Much to gain by delaying the election for a few weeks.

Tell me this, in the middle of one of his daring-do tied-in-chains tricks, would Houdini have been the first man you called if you wanted to rob a bank at the very same time?

People aren't dumb.  I can't vouch for Politicians and political followers who obviously think that they are - but people know that if all power and influence to control events is removed from someone by a sect of people who have chained them up politically and legally, then few are going to fall for the crud that his impotence/incompetence is the result of his own actions.  Anti-Boris people will vote against him anyway, so they don't need the optics.  And the optics don't work on those that would/will vote for him.

Any election, whenever it's called, will give a people's view of the current shenanigans going on in Westminster.  Some people will vote for Corbyn because he helped put Boris in chains, some will vote for the Tory rebels who grew a pair and helped Corbyn wrap the chains...but there'll also be plenty that will wait to pay back the Tory dissenters who grew the pair at the polling stations.

The thing is - that I do believe that Boris and his drunken familiar did plan for something like this - and saw getting an election in place early as part of an overall strategy to keep him in government. I also believe that reality and the response to his actions to date have been on a scale they did not foresee, and the standard Boris BS and blustering have been fully exposed, in parliament if not yet in the newspapers that have supported him to date. But they are all going to get increasingly nervous about backing the wrong horse.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Interesting that BJ said this week he categorically doesn't want an election.
Also interesting that he said (paraphrasing) "Let's put it (Brexit) to the people." but doesn't want a Brexit referendum to put Brexit to the people.

Well he shares a common belief system with Remainers who didn't even want to put the first Referendum to 'the people'.

Oops sorry.... I forgot that I heard Boris was a Remainer back then too.

So Remainers don't like Elections?  Is that the conclusion?

Sure, if you want to make crazy assumptions to fit your own agenda, then yes it is.

You always want to make your opinions fit perfectly. And get irked when I constantly reminding you that your tailoring can be off sometimes. More attention to that inside leg in future and you'll be grand.

I don't get irked, I get amused. I get everything off the rack.

Boris's hole is getting bigger each day, and I'm pretty sure he's not digging it himself either.

He needs to take the spade off Dominic Cummings and bring the ego-maniac down a peg or two

JuliusHMarx wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

Oh I don't dispute that. I was trying to explain why opposition MPs won't agree to a general election until it's nailed down that we won't be leaving without a deal on 31st October.

So what happens if Boris now just sits on his hands?  Sends no 'negotiators' (who are not allowed touch on EU unnegotiables) to Brussels, gives no guarantees to Parliament or the EU; just lets the clock tick towards 31st October?

In other words he continues to do what he's been doing since he became PM - bugger all.

Okay.  I'll do the obligatory .  Good joke.  

Now...... after the mirth, back to the question.  Do you know what might happen in the real world if he just sat there and stopped cooperating with anyone?
And if asked/demanded to do something, he might say "The only thing I'll do now is call an election to get rid of me."

Any answers, Julius?  I'm in the dark, but it appears there are a good few eagles here that are fans of Parliamentary dark arts.  Someone must have a guess.

superflyweight wrote:Jo Johnson quits to spend less time with family?  

SecretFly wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

For all the nonsense you post, this is on the money. There's no trust, anywhere, in our politics anymore and that's a big problem from now on and for some foreseeable time.

Despite the nonsense you post, thanks

Anytime!

First of all, he's done nothing towards getting a deal. He gave himself a deadline of roughly 100 days, and 42 days into that period he has yet to start negotiations or make any new proposals. So it's safe to say currently, in the real world, he is not cooperating with anyone on Brexit.

He has also prorogued Parliament, so as of Monday (?) he won't be doing anything, and can't do anything, anyway - for several weeks. So waiting until, say, Nov 4th for an election will change very little, in real terms.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

Oh I don't dispute that. I was trying to explain why opposition MPs won't agree to a general election until it's nailed down that we won't be leaving without a deal on 31st October.

So what happens if Boris now just sits on his hands?  Sends no 'negotiators' (who are not allowed touch on EU unnegotiables) to Brussels, gives no guarantees to Parliament or the EU; just lets the clock tick towards 31st October?  
I thought - correct me if wrong, by all mean - that the UK government must Request an extension rather than the EU imposing one externally?
So if Boris declares himself a lame duck PM, impeded by a Parliament makeup he will not acquiesce to, will not do deals with etc....what then?  What would happen?  Anybody know?

I'm not sure, to be honest. If he's instructed by parliament to request an extension, I don't see how he can refuse to do so without also having to resign.

It makes sense for Labour to have to watch Boris Johnson delay Brexit and go back on his promise.
For the Tories... at the moment they're being politically outmanoeuvred. I do think most Brexit party voters still trust Boris, but if it's a November election and we haven't left, Tories could see their vote split.

lostinwales wrote:  I also believe that reality and the response to his actions to date have been on a scale they did not foresee, and the standard Boris BS and blustering have been fully exposed, in parliament if not yet in the newspapers that have supported him to date. But they are all going to get increasingly nervous about backing the wrong horse.

But that absolves the common punters.  It's always a debate dragged back to 'media' and 'politicians'.  "Let them decide... but they're all making a dog's dinner of it".
No, you decide - as in you a citizen observer.  Which horse is the right horse?  May was the polar opposite of Boris.  She's gone.  Parliament did to her what they are now trying to do to Boris.  

So what horse is in the stables that would unite a majority of common citizens, media and politicians so that the Pantomime would end and Northern Europe might move on after three years of endless talk?  Is there a name there?  Too many want to keep blaming media and politicians for the show.  Why don't the masses just go on to the street and demand an election now?  Why don't the people want to take back control and once again GIVE politicians their orders?  If you believe your opinion is the majority one (either side) then an election should not be feared but longed for .... IF you believe, that is.

SecretFly wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem is that's there's no trust whatsoever in this government not to go back on its word. None.

You really should understand though, it really needs to be understood and acknowledged - and it's not a difficult equation - but it is also true and a problem that the Remainer/Brexit-with-Backstop supporters/MPs are not trusted either.

There are two sides to the coin - always.

Oh I don't dispute that. I was trying to explain why opposition MPs won't agree to a general election until it's nailed down that we won't be leaving without a deal on 31st October.

So what happens if Boris now just sits on his hands?  Sends no 'negotiators' (who are not allowed touch on EU unnegotiables) to Brussels, gives no guarantees to Parliament or the EU; just lets the clock tick towards 31st October?

In other words he continues to do what he's been doing since he became PM - bugger all.

Okay.  I'll do the obligatory .  Good joke.  

Now...... after the mirth, back to the question.  Do you know what might happen in the real world if he just sat there and stopped cooperating with anyone?
And if asked/demanded to do something, he might say "The only thing I'll do now is call an election to get rid of me."

Any answers, Julius?  I'm in the dark, but it appears there are a good few eagles here that are fans of Parliamentary dark arts.  Someone must have a guess.

In that unlikely (although not entirely improbable) scenario, I suspect there would be attempts to get cross-party support for someone to become a "unity Prime Minister" and if enough support for that then Labour could call a vote of no-confidence. If the government loses the vote of no-confidence then a new government would be formed without the need to go to a general election.

It Must Be Love wrote:It makes sense for Labour to have to watch Boris Johnson delay Brexit and go back on his promise.
For the Tories... at the moment they're being politically outmanoeuvred. I do think most Brexit party voters still trust Boris, but if it's a November election and we haven't left, Tories could see their vote split.

It's a gamble for Johnson, and it hinges how popular a no-deal Brexit is with Tory voters (as opposed to Tory party members). Their votes aren't in the bag. So any votes he'd gain from the Brexit Party by going through with No Deal would be offset by the number of lost votes of previously Tory voters who don't want No Deal.