Brexit

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

BamBam wrote:She actually called him a "filthy piece of toe (tow) rag), which if we go by LP's explanation, means he's one that hasn't yet been towed through the sea!

Even more apt

Cool. On that sort of theme, can we keel haul him while we're at it?

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I’d fully support the Scots pushing for independence on the back of this, if only it wasn’t that the pot maybe doesn’t need stirring further right now.

Despite my philosophical despair at the apparent drive to fragment the UK and leave the EU, I'm more and more convinced that the UK can go **** itself TBH. Best case, let it continue to exist with everything but full independence for Scotland, Wales and N.I. Let them have the full responsibility for their own local economies, raising taxes, health care, education etc etc. Let them explain to their own electorates how they're going to do it and remove the convenient excuse of blaming Westminster. Maybe just leave defence and a few other issues as a UK-wide issue? Scotland rejected independence in 2014, but the hypocrisy of then returning almost universal SNP MPs in 2015 is enough to make me . Just **** off.
England can have its own Parliament as well - wouldn't mind betting that the lack of such played into Brexit outcome in England.

Shame we'd lose global influence and UN Security Council veto position etc, but we're an ex-empire power that simply hasn't realised it no longer has any clout anyway. Not long until we're the same as Greece, Italy, France, Spain or Portugal, for example.

There are many, many Scots out there who feel robbed and cheated right now. They are pro-EU and voted No in 2014 as Bitter (sorry some people will cry for me using that term)...Better Together told them it was the only way to remain in the EU and now look where we are. It is such a massive issue it totally negates how people voted in 2014. Ask any MP up and down the UK and they will all tell you EU membership is the biggest political issue this country has faced since the Second World War so it is not a non-issue. And before you get me started there were a bucket load of other promises not kept by Better Together.

You can have the sick bucket after me as I need it just now.

I don't think I implied Brexit was any sort of non-issue. I simply don't give a damn anymore. Go: have your second referendum and independence. Actually take responsibility and stop blaming someone else. I'm afraid I don't give a scheisse anymore. Take the Welsh and NI with you while you're at it...

All very well but first you have to have a word with the king of all control freaks - Westminster. They are the ones who call all of the shots despite their obvious rank incompetence as the last few years show.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I’d fully support the Scots pushing for independence on the back of this, if only it wasn’t that the pot maybe doesn’t need stirring further right now.

Despite my philosophical despair at the apparent drive to fragment the UK and leave the EU, I'm more and more convinced that the UK can go **** itself TBH. Best case, let it continue to exist with everything but full independence for Scotland, Wales and N.I. Let them have the full responsibility for their own local economies, raising taxes, health care, education etc etc. Let them explain to their own electorates how they're going to do it and remove the convenient excuse of blaming Westminster. Maybe just leave defence and a few other issues as a UK-wide issue? Scotland rejected independence in 2014, but the hypocrisy of then returning almost universal SNP MPs in 2015 is enough to make me . Just **** off.
England can have its own Parliament as well - wouldn't mind betting that the lack of such played into Brexit outcome in England.

Shame we'd lose global influence and UN Security Council veto position etc, but we're an ex-empire power that simply hasn't realised it no longer has any clout anyway. Not long until we're the same as Greece, Italy, France, Spain or Portugal, for example.

There are many, many Scots out there who feel robbed and cheated right now. They are pro-EU and voted No in 2014 as Bitter (sorry some people will cry for me using that term)...Better Together told them it was the only way to remain in the EU and now look where we are. It is such a massive issue it totally negates how people voted in 2014. Ask any MP up and down the UK and they will all tell you EU membership is the biggest political issue this country has faced since the Second World War so it is not a non-issue. And before you get me started there were a bucket load of other promises not kept by Better Together.

You can have the sick bucket after me as I need it just now.

I don't think I implied Brexit was any sort of non-issue. I simply don't give a damn anymore. Go: have your second referendum and independence. Actually take responsibility and stop blaming someone else. I'm afraid I don't give a scheisse anymore. Take the Welsh and NI with you while you're at it...

All very well but first you have to have a word with the king of all control freaks - Westminster. They are the ones who call all of the shots despite their obvious rank incompetence as the last few years show.

Whatever; if I can put in a word to hurry up your leaving, I'll happily do so. The sooner NI is back as part of a united Ireland and Wales and Scotland are living the life of Riley as independent nations, the better. No more continual carping and claiming to be downtrodden or not having a Government of their own choosing. No-one to blame when something isn't right, apart from the saintly SNP or Plaid. Just go away...

Interesting point of contention - Westminster are the evil control freaks to some, Brussels to others.

Suggests its always looking to point the finger for life's problems. If all the countries in the Union were independent/part of a united Ireland, it would probably see the finger being pointed at Edinburgh, Cardiff, London and Dublin

I think its different because in the EU no one state holds more power than any other. Whereas in the UK its what England wants and Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland can either like it or lump it.

I don't really think it's similar, just interesting to see a displacement of name

navyblueshorts wrote:Whatever; if I can put in a word to hurry up your leaving, I'll happily do so. The sooner NI is back as part of a united Ireland and Wales and Scotland are living the life of Riley as independent nations, the better

Wow. Considering us Welsh had many soldiers and other personal (my late Grandfather being one of them) who helped the war effort by fighting, engineering, providing coal, taking in refugees from bombed English towns along with the Welsh language being used as the Nazi's couldn't decode it......you don't half dislike (possibly hate) us Welsh hey

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting point of contention - Westminster are the evil control freaks to some, Brussels to others.

True. However, I do not recall the UK having to beg for a referendum on multiple occasions and being wafted away with comments like 'now is not the time' or 'there is no mandate' (when there clearly is) as is the case we get with Westminster.

Samo wrote:I think its different because in the EU no one state holds more power than any other. Whereas in the UK its what England wants and Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland can either like it or lump it.

If you say so. Must be true...

Samo wrote:I think its different because in the EU no one state holds more power than any other. Whereas in the UK its what England wants and Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland can either like it or lump it.

I think there's a fair bit of England that would dispute that

Samo wrote:I think its different because in the EU no one state holds more power than any other. Whereas in the UK its what England wants and Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland can either like it or lump it.

Yeah of course Estonia holds as much power as Germany in the EU with its six MEPS compared to 96

Steffan wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Whatever; if I can put in a word to hurry up your leaving, I'll happily do so. The sooner NI is back as part of a united Ireland and Wales and Scotland are living the life of Riley as independent nations, the better

Wow. Considering us Welsh had many soldiers and other personal (my late Grandfather being one of them) who helped the war effort by fighting, engineering, providing coal, taking in refugees from bombed English towns along with the Welsh language being used as the Nazi's couldn't decode it......you don't half dislike (possibly hate) us Welsh hey

Oh, get with the programme. I'm very much pro-UK (or, rather, I was until last week), but I'm utterly fed up of your (as in Welsh independence; not you personally) carping and complaining about Westminster and the English as the fount of all your problems. I suspect your grandfather would be as p!ssed off with you and that moron Adam Price as I am. Have your independence, sod off and shut up. Ditto Scotland and N.I.

As to 'hate', I only 'hate' the Welsh for the ~80 mins we're playing them at rugby .

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting point of contention - Westminster are the evil control freaks to some, Brussels to others.

True. However, I do not recall the UK having to beg for a referendum on multiple occasions and being wafted away with comments like 'now is not the time' or 'there is no mandate' (when there clearly is) as is the case we get with Westminster.

So sensitive.

Anyway, you'll just keep whining and banging on about it until you get the outcome you want. You had your chance in 2014, which was 'once in a generation'. Don't give me that yawn-o-rama about what was said then re. staying in the EU - almost everyone (apart from the actual Brexit voters, and Duty on here!) thought the UK would vote to remain in 2016 and you should have considered that it might not have come to pass when voting in 2014.
For me, have your damned extra referendum; have as many as it takes in as short a time as it takes. In the meantime, I hope no-one puts tariffs on malt and that the world isn't moving away from fossil fuels....ah. Still, there's always cashmere and Arran sweaters. As I said, if I can put a word in to hurry your exit, let me know .

navyblueshorts wrote:

Steffan wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Whatever; if I can put in a word to hurry up your leaving, I'll happily do so. The sooner NI is back as part of a united Ireland and Wales and Scotland are living the life of Riley as independent nations, the better

Wow. Considering us Welsh had many soldiers and other personal (my late Grandfather being one of them) who helped the war effort by fighting, engineering, providing coal, taking in refugees from bombed English towns along with the Welsh language being used as the Nazi's couldn't decode it......you don't half dislike (possibly hate) us Welsh hey

Oh, get with the programme. I'm very much pro-UK (or, rather, I was until last week), but I'm utterly fed up of your (as in Welsh independence; not you personally) carping and complaining about Westminster and the English as the fount of all your problems. I suspect your grandfather would be as p!ssed off with you and that moron Adam Price as I am. Have your independence, sod off and shut up. Ditto Scotland and N.I.

As to 'hate', I only 'hate' the Welsh for the ~80 mins we're playing them at rugby .

I think you are way off the mark. The problem Scots, Welsh and Irish have is not with the English but with Westminster and the power it holds over those other countries. I have no problem with English people. I work in England for half of my working week and have lived in England for long periods in the past. The problem the Scots, Welsh and Irish have is Westminster governing. It has had its day - Brexit demonstrates that perfectly. What must be remembered is that this union is touted as 'a union of equals' but it really is not. The make-up of Westminster ensures that decisions passed will invariably be what English MPs want. Okay that is fair enough but when these decisions go against what the other countries want vehemently then that type of governance just does not work. I cannot speak for Wales and Northern Ireland but Scotland now has a vastly different political landscape to England - its views on many things differ from Westminster beliefs and values and differs on how it sees things panning out in the future hence the steady increase in the support for independence movement in the last 30 to 40 years. It is an anti-Westminster sentiment not anti-English as it is wrongly labelled.

As for England well I would definitely say they should have their own parliament without a shadow of a doubt. I am pretty surprised more people down there are not pushing for it if I am honest. An English parliament to decide on English decision for England with only English MPs there. That makes perfect sense to me.

Anyways those are my thoughts for what it is worth.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting point of contention - Westminster are the evil control freaks to some, Brussels to others.

True. However, I do not recall the UK having to beg for a referendum on multiple occasions and being wafted away with comments like 'now is not the time' or 'there is no mandate' (when there clearly is) as is the case we get with Westminster.

So sensitive.

Anyway, you'll just keep whining and banging on about it until you get the outcome you want. You had your chance in 2014, which was 'once in a generation'. Don't give me that yawn-o-rama about what was said then re. staying in the EU - almost everyone (apart from the actual Brexit voters, and Duty on here!) thought the UK would vote to remain in 2016 and you should have considered that it might not have come to pass when voting in 2014.
For me, have your damned extra referendum; have as many as it takes in as short a time as it takes. In the meantime, I hope no-one puts tariffs on malt and that the world isn't moving away from fossil fuels....ah. Still, there's always cashmere and Arran sweaters. As I said, if I can put a word in to hurry your exit, let me know .

Thank god you were not PM prior to the Second World War. Chamberlain declared peace in our time after talks with Hitler where he was ensured Germany would not invade Poland - weeks later they had and peace in our time had changed to Britain joining the Second World War. In short words in politics mean nothing when something ground shattering happens. And anyway Thatcher did once say Scotland could have its independence once it returned a majority of MPs. What happened in 2010 then?

Thatcher wasn't PM in 2010. What she said way back when is completely irrelevant now.

I don't care anymore what you think. The problem is claimed as not being the English per se, but simply Westminster itself. Whatever. Doesn't matter - all you want is a useful patsy to point the finger at and blame, while remaining part of the UK and still sending almost exclusively SNP MPs to Westminster. Best of both worlds eh? Fund your own free health care, education etc etc in future and raise your own taxes to do so.

Go away; don't let the door hit you on the way out...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting point of contention - Westminster are the evil control freaks to some, Brussels to others.

True. However, I do not recall the UK having to beg for a referendum on multiple occasions and being wafted away with comments like 'now is not the time' or 'there is no mandate' (when there clearly is) as is the case we get with Westminster.

So sensitive.

Anyway, you'll just keep whining and banging on about it until you get the outcome you want. You had your chance in 2014, which was 'once in a generation'. Don't give me that yawn-o-rama about what was said then re. staying in the EU - almost everyone (apart from the actual Brexit voters, and Duty on here!) thought the UK would vote to remain in 2016 and you should have considered that it might not have come to pass when voting in 2014.
For me, have your damned extra referendum; have as many as it takes in as short a time as it takes. In the meantime, I hope no-one puts tariffs on malt and that the world isn't moving away from fossil fuels....ah. Still, there's always cashmere and Arran sweaters. As I said, if I can put a word in to hurry your exit, let me know .

Thank god you were not PM prior to the Second World War. Chamberlain declared peace in our time after talks with Hitler where he was ensured Germany would not invade Poland - weeks later they had and peace in our time had changed to Britain joining the Second World War. In short words in politics mean nothing when something ground shattering happens. And anyway Thatcher did once say Scotland could have its independence once it returned a majority of MPs. What happened in 2010 then?

Ah yes. Hitler, Dachau and the other concentration camps pre-1939 and the actual, you know, military invasion of Poland is the same as the UK voting to leave the EU. My mistake.

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting point of contention - Westminster are the evil control freaks to some, Brussels to others.

True. However, I do not recall the UK having to beg for a referendum on multiple occasions and being wafted away with comments like 'now is not the time' or 'there is no mandate' (when there clearly is) as is the case we get with Westminster.

So sensitive.

Anyway, you'll just keep whining and banging on about it until you get the outcome you want. You had your chance in 2014, which was 'once in a generation'. Don't give me that yawn-o-rama about what was said then re. staying in the EU - almost everyone (apart from the actual Brexit voters, and Duty on here!) thought the UK would vote to remain in 2016 and you should have considered that it might not have come to pass when voting in 2014.
For me, have your damned extra referendum; have as many as it takes in as short a time as it takes. In the meantime, I hope no-one puts tariffs on malt and that the world isn't moving away from fossil fuels....ah. Still, there's always cashmere and Arran sweaters. As I said, if I can put a word in to hurry your exit, let me know .

Thank god you were not PM prior to the Second World War. Chamberlain declared peace in our time after talks with Hitler where he was ensured Germany would not invade Poland - weeks later they had and peace in our time had changed to Britain joining the Second World War. In short words in politics mean nothing when something ground shattering happens. And anyway Thatcher did once say Scotland could have its independence once it returned a majority of MPs. What happened in 2010 then?

Ah yes. Hitler, Dachau and the other concentration camps pre-1939 and the actual, you know, military invasion of Poland is the same as the UK voting to leave the EU. My mistake.

I suggest you revisit how Brexit is seen. Widely regarded across the board as the biggest political issue confronted in Britain since the Second World War. Point being this is a massive issue that cannot just be brushed under the carpet as something trivial.

And yes I will keep banging on until I get an outcome that is reached by fair means not one that was won on the lies about EU membership, pensions, devolved powers, currency and buttering people up that has then led to Scotland being dragged out of the EU depite voting otherwise.

navyblueshorts wrote:I don't care anymore what you think. The problem is claimed as not being the English per se, but simply Westminster itself. Whatever. Doesn't matter - all you want is a useful patsy to point the finger at and blame, while remaining part of the UK and still sending almost exclusively SNP MPs to Westminster. Best of both worlds eh? Fund your own free health care, education etc etc in future and raise your own taxes to do so.

Go away; don't let the door hit you on the way out...

You know rUK pays tax now, right?

Everyone pays tax, but its surely well known that London and the South East effectively funds the rest of the UK

I can't recall the numbers, but I believe every Londoner pays something like £2k more in tax than they actually receive in public funding. The South East is the only other area in surplus, the rest of the UK is in deficit

Afro wrote:Suggests its always looking to point the finger for life's problems. If all the countries in the Union were independent/part of a united Ireland, it would probably see the finger being pointed at Edinburgh, Cardiff, London and Dublin

An administrative capital is an administrative capital. The people in power and who actually do influence most of life's problems - tax, income, health, infrastructure, industry investment, foreign policy etc - sit in a building somewhere. It's pretty obvious why people focus their anger at Power headquarters.
Yet we don't blame them for the neighbour's cat schidtting on our doorstep.....but should!

BamBam wrote:Everyone pays tax, but its surely well known that London and the South East effectively funds the rest of the UK

I can't recall the numbers, but I believe every Londoner pays something like £2k more in tax than they actually receive in public funding. The South East is the only other area in surplus, the rest of the UK is in deficit

So you could say that 'England' doesn't subsidise the other countries of the UK.

Additionally, to address the implied challenge (not from you) for the other countries to survive without handouts from England: why is it assumed that these countries would have the same spending priorities as Westminster? And independence would also be an end to Wales paying towards England-only projects such as HS2 (which is being scrapped, a bolted horse) which count as England and Wales projects despite not an inch of track being in Wales. This 'subsidisation' lark isn't a one-way street.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Samo wrote:I think its different because in the EU no one state holds more power than any other. Whereas in the UK its what England wants and Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland can either like it or lump it.

Yeah of course Estonia holds as much power as Germany in the EU with its six MEPS compared to 96

But as you well know legislation is initiated in the Council, where Estonia has equal say to Germany.

Samo wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

Samo wrote:I think its different because in the EU no one state holds more power than any other. Whereas in the UK its what England wants and Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland can either like it or lump it.

Yeah of course Estonia holds as much power as Germany in the EU with its six MEPS compared to 96

But as you well know legislation is initiated in the Council, where Estonia has equal say to Germany.

You keep believing that Samo.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

BamBam wrote:Everyone pays tax, but its surely well known that London and the South East effectively funds the rest of the UK

I can't recall the numbers, but I believe every Londoner pays something like £2k more in tax than they actually receive in public funding. The South East is the only other area in surplus, the rest of the UK is in deficit

So you could say that 'England' doesn't subsidise the other countries of the UK.

Additionally, to address the implied challenge for the other countries to survive without handouts from England: why is it assumed that these countries would have the same spending priorities as Westeminster? And independence would also be an end to Wales paying towards England-only projects such as HS2 (which is being scrapped, a bolted horse) which count as England and Wales projects despite not an inch of track being in Wales. This 'subsidisation' lark isn't a one-way street.

If everywhere other than London / SE is in deficit, surely that just means London / SE subsidise not only the other regions of England, but also the other countries in the UK!

Other than HS2 (which is not just of benefit to rich businessmen travelling from London to Birmingham believe it or not), what spending priorities would Wales have that Westminster doesn't?

Do you think the Welsh tax contribution plus whatever the movement thinks they can start selling to other countries would be enough to fund the basics like schools, NHS and policing? Any other priorities will obviously come after that

Edit - having typed that, I realise that something like the NHS might not be the model chosen, so that makes more sense!

BamBam wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

BamBam wrote:Everyone pays tax, but its surely well known that London and the South East effectively funds the rest of the UK

I can't recall the numbers, but I believe every Londoner pays something like £2k more in tax than they actually receive in public funding. The South East is the only other area in surplus, the rest of the UK is in deficit

So you could say that 'England' doesn't subsidise the other countries of the UK.

Additionally, to address the implied challenge for the other countries to survive without handouts from England: why is it assumed that these countries would have the same spending priorities as Westeminster? And independence would also be an end to Wales paying towards England-only projects such as HS2 (which is being scrapped, a bolted horse) which count as England and Wales projects despite not an inch of track being in Wales. This 'subsidisation' lark isn't a one-way street.

If everywhere other than London / SE is in deficit, surely that just means London / SE subsidise not only the other regions of England, but also the other countries in the UK!

Other than HS2 (which is not just of benefit to rich businessmen travelling from London to Birmingham believe it or not), what spending priorities would Wales have that Westminster doesn't?

Do you think the Welsh tax contribution plus whatever the movement thinks they can start selling to other countries would be enough to fund the basics like schools, NHS and policing? Any other priorities will obviously come after that

What I mean is it's one part of England subsidising the rest of England at the same time as it's subsidising the rest of the UK. The north-east of England, for example, isn't subsidising Wales or Scotland.

On the spending priorities, it's less what Wales might want to spend on that Westminster doesn't spend on, and more that Westminster spends on that Wales might not want to spend on. Trident being the obvious example.

Ah I see what you mean. I guess as a Londoner, I feel just as detached from the north east as I do towards Wales / Scotland / NI, so looking at it from that point of view

Being a fully signed up member of the "metropolitan elite" I have full sympathy with those who want independence from batsh!t crazy middle England views controlling politics

I want to say too that it's not a case of disliking the English - I think that's actually quite a useful if lazy spinning of things whenever the issue of independence is raised. It actually comes from the realisation that no matter how engaged with Westminster politics Welsh people get, however many Union flags we wave, we will never be able to influence Westminster. That's the truth of it. We'll be asking for permission to do things that smaller, less resource-rich countries are free to do without asking permission from their neighbours. I just don't accept that situation as acceptable or inevitable, even though I doubt I'll live to see the end of it - unless of course Scotland leaves the UK, which really would be a gamechanger.

BamBam wrote:Ah I see what you mean. I guess as a Londoner, I feel just as detached from the north east as I do towards Wales / Scotland / NI, so looking at it from that point of view

I think that illustrates perfectly the issues people have being governed from Westminster. The detachment from what is happening outside of London and South East, means that decisions are being made that impact the other regions, without a full understanding of the issues in those areas.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:I don't care anymore what you think. The problem is claimed as not being the English per se, but simply Westminster itself. Whatever. Doesn't matter - all you want is a useful patsy to point the finger at and blame, while remaining part of the UK and still sending almost exclusively SNP MPs to Westminster. Best of both worlds eh? Fund your own free health care, education etc etc in future and raise your own taxes to do so.

Go away; don't let the door hit you on the way out...

You know rUK pays tax now, right?

Duh! Of course. I'm talking about independent Scotland, Wales etc raising their own taxes etc to spend on their own priorities. The sorts of things independent nation states do. Having their independent populations criticising and whining at their own politicians, instead of politicians they too easily see as someone else's. That sort of thing...

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

BamBam wrote:Everyone pays tax, but its surely well known that London and the South East effectively funds the rest of the UK

I can't recall the numbers, but I believe every Londoner pays something like £2k more in tax than they actually receive in public funding. The South East is the only other area in surplus, the rest of the UK is in deficit

So you could say that 'England' doesn't subsidise the other countries of the UK.

Additionally, to address the implied challenge (not from you) for the other countries to survive without handouts from England: why is it assumed that these countries would have the same spending priorities as Westminster? And independence would also be an end to Wales paying towards England-only projects such as HS2 (which is being scrapped, a bolted horse) which count as England and Wales projects despite not an inch of track being in Wales. This 'subsidisation' lark isn't a one-way street.

Excellent! An end to the UK appears to be a win all round.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

BamBam wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

BamBam wrote:Everyone pays tax, but its surely well known that London and the South East effectively funds the rest of the UK

I can't recall the numbers, but I believe every Londoner pays something like £2k more in tax than they actually receive in public funding. The South East is the only other area in surplus, the rest of the UK is in deficit

So you could say that 'England' doesn't subsidise the other countries of the UK.

Additionally, to address the implied challenge for the other countries to survive without handouts from England: why is it assumed that these countries would have the same spending priorities as Westeminster? And independence would also be an end to Wales paying towards England-only projects such as HS2 (which is being scrapped, a bolted horse) which count as England and Wales projects despite not an inch of track being in Wales. This 'subsidisation' lark isn't a one-way street.

If everywhere other than London / SE is in deficit, surely that just means London / SE subsidise not only the other regions of England, but also the other countries in the UK!

Other than HS2 (which is not just of benefit to rich businessmen travelling from London to Birmingham believe it or not), what spending priorities would Wales have that Westminster doesn't?

Do you think the Welsh tax contribution plus whatever the movement thinks they can start selling to other countries would be enough to fund the basics like schools, NHS and policing? Any other priorities will obviously come after that

What I mean is it's one part of England subsidising the rest of England at the same time as it's subsidising the rest of the UK. The north-east of England, for example, isn't subsidising Wales or Scotland.

On the spending priorities, it's less what Wales might want to spend on that Westminster doesn't spend on, and more that Westminster spends on that Wales might not want to spend on. Trident being the obvious example.

Nope. England is England, whether one bit is richer than the rest. "You" (and Craig) want historical, but extant, national borders as delineating marks, you have them. The SE 'financing' the rest of England is not the same as it arguably being a net contributor to Wales, Scotland etc.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I want to say too that it's not a case of disliking the English - I think that's actually quite a useful if lazy spinning of things whenever the issue of independence is raised. It actually comes from the realisation that no matter how engaged with Westminster politics Welsh people get, however many Union flags we wave, we will never be able to influence Westminster. That's the truth of it. We'll be asking for permission to do things that smaller, less resource-rich countries are free to do without asking permission from their neighbours. I just don't accept that situation as acceptable or inevitable, even though I doubt I'll live to see the end of it - unless of course Scotland leaves the UK, which really would be a gamechanger.

So, independence is the way forward then? Seems like it's best all round as Wales/Scotland etc have always been bullied by England and there's clearly no benefit to being in the Union any more, and never has been. As far as I can see, this is all an extension of the 'What's in it for me?' individual behaviour of the last 30 years or so, but on national levels.

Not happy in the Union and carping about being downtrodden and 'not getting the Government we voted for!'. For many, it's exactly a case of disliking the English (even if it's a meaningless target of the moment), but wrapped up in platitudes and weasel words about it being just about Westminster. Careful what you wish for though; grass isn't always greener on the other side.

Fine.

EDIT: the 'fine' was in response to your reply about England subsidising rUK - not in response your claim that the Welsh and Scots actually do hate the English.

Think the Lib Dems have more Tory Mps than Lib Dem ones now..

Time for members to ask what direction is this Party headed in ??

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting point of contention - Westminster are the evil control freaks to some, Brussels to others.

True. However, I do not recall the UK having to beg for a referendum on multiple occasions and being wafted away with comments like 'now is not the time' or 'there is no mandate' (when there clearly is) as is the case we get with Westminster.

So sensitive.

Anyway, you'll just keep whining and banging on about it until you get the outcome you want. You had your chance in 2014, which was 'once in a generation'. Don't give me that yawn-o-rama about what was said then re. staying in the EU - almost everyone (apart from the actual Brexit voters, and Duty on here!) thought the UK would vote to remain in 2016 and you should have considered that it might not have come to pass when voting in 2014.
For me, have your damned extra referendum; have as many as it takes in as short a time as it takes. In the meantime, I hope no-one puts tariffs on malt and that the world isn't moving away from fossil fuels....ah. Still, there's always cashmere and Arran sweaters. As I said, if I can put a word in to hurry your exit, let me know .

Thank god you were not PM prior to the Second World War. Chamberlain declared peace in our time after talks with Hitler where he was ensured Germany would not invade Poland - weeks later they had and peace in our time had changed to Britain joining the Second World War. In short words in politics mean nothing when something ground shattering happens. And anyway Thatcher did once say Scotland could have its independence once it returned a majority of MPs. What happened in 2010 then?

Ah yes. Hitler, Dachau and the other concentration camps pre-1939 and the actual, you know, military invasion of Poland is the same as the UK voting to leave the EU. My mistake.

I suggest you revisit how Brexit is seen. Widely regarded across the board as the biggest political issue confronted in Britain since the Second World War. Point being this is a massive issue that cannot just be brushed under the carpet as something trivial.

And yes I will keep banging on until I get an outcome that is reached by fair means not one that was won on the lies about EU membership, pensions, devolved powers, currency and buttering people up that has then led to Scotland being dragged out of the EU depite voting otherwise.

Yes, I'm sure you will. Your comment on 'fair means' gave me a good laugh though. Hopefully, it won't be long until you're off on your own...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think the Lib Dems have more Tory Mps than Lib Dem ones now..

Time for members to ask what direction is this Party headed in ??

Do find that somewhat bizarre, it'll be an easy target for Labour.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting point of contention - Westminster are the evil control freaks to some, Brussels to others.

True. However, I do not recall the UK having to beg for a referendum on multiple occasions and being wafted away with comments like 'now is not the time' or 'there is no mandate' (when there clearly is) as is the case we get with Westminster.

So sensitive.

Anyway, you'll just keep whining and banging on about it until you get the outcome you want. You had your chance in 2014, which was 'once in a generation'. Don't give me that yawn-o-rama about what was said then re. staying in the EU - almost everyone (apart from the actual Brexit voters, and Duty on here!) thought the UK would vote to remain in 2016 and you should have considered that it might not have come to pass when voting in 2014.
For me, have your damned extra referendum; have as many as it takes in as short a time as it takes. In the meantime, I hope no-one puts tariffs on malt and that the world isn't moving away from fossil fuels....ah. Still, there's always cashmere and Arran sweaters. As I said, if I can put a word in to hurry your exit, let me know .

Thank god you were not PM prior to the Second World War. Chamberlain declared peace in our time after talks with Hitler where he was ensured Germany would not invade Poland - weeks later they had and peace in our time had changed to Britain joining the Second World War. In short words in politics mean nothing when something ground shattering happens. And anyway Thatcher did once say Scotland could have its independence once it returned a majority of MPs. What happened in 2010 then?

Peace for our time, not peace in our time. It happened in 1938, not 1939. It primarily concerned Czechoslovakia, not Poland. War happened a year later, not a few weeks later.

Soul Requiem wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think the Lib Dems have more Tory Mps than Lib Dem ones now..

Time for members to ask what direction is this Party headed in ??

Do find that somewhat bizarre, it'll be an easy target for Labour.

You think? They couldn't hit a barn door from six feet with both barrels of a 12 bore.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think the Lib Dems have more Tory Mps than Lib Dem ones now..

Time for members to ask what direction is this Party headed in ??

Do find that somewhat bizarre, it'll be an easy target for Labour.

You think? They couldn't hit a barn door from six feet with both barrels of a 12 bore.

Best to see what happens after Oct 31st..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Think the Lib Dems have more Tory Mps than Lib Dem ones now..

Time for members to ask what direction is this Party headed in ??

Do find that somewhat bizarre, it'll be an easy target for Labour.

You think? They couldn't hit a barn door from six feet with both barrels of a 12 bore.

Best to see what happens after Oct 31st..

Indeed, but as Blair's Labour's soundtrack pre-'97 sang: "Things...can only get better...can only get better..."

https://unbound.com/books/brexit/

That is all...

Afro wrote:

BamBam wrote:Ah I see what you mean. I guess as a Londoner, I feel just as detached from the north east as I do towards Wales / Scotland / NI, so looking at it from that point of view

I think that illustrates perfectly the issues people have being governed from Westminster. The detachment from what is happening outside of London and South East, means that decisions are being made that impact the other regions, without a full understanding of the issues in those areas.

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/man-who-lives-in-tiny-village-accuses-londoners-of-living-in-a-bubble-20191001189404

I think I've found an alternative solution to the Irish backstop which I think all sensible and right-minded people should be able to get behind.  

I call it the Northern Irish butt plug.  

What we do is we take Arlene Foster and we push her head first and right up to her knees into Nigel Farage's anus.

How does this help I hear you ask?  

Well first of all, we silence a homophobic religious bigot by placing her head into the upper colon of a daft racist and remove support that has been propping up a minority government that has right royally f**cked things up from the get go.  

Secondly, the daft racist will either die from extreme anal and intestinal trauma or will become a figure of fun that even his most ardent supporters will struggle to take seriously.  His influence is diminished, the Tories can expel the lunatics back to the fringes of the party and perhaps politics can become a much more sensible place.  

Call me a hopeless visionary if you like, but its important to dream.

A Saturday sitting of Parliament.

I expect the viewing figures of Soccer Saturday to go down enormously across the isles

superflyweight wrote:I think I've found an alternative solution to the Irish backstop which I think all sensible and right-minded people should be able to get behind.  

I call it the Northern Irish butt plug.  

What we do is we take Arlene Foster and we push her head first and right up to her knees into Nigel Farage's anus.

How does this help I hear you ask?  

Well first of all, we silence a homophobic religious bigot by placing her head into the upper colon of a daft racist and remove support that has been propping up a minority government that has right royally f**cked things up from the get go.  

Secondly, the daft racist will either die from extreme anal and intestinal trauma or will become a figure of fun that even his most ardent supporters will struggle to take seriously.  His influence is diminished, the Tories can expel the lunatics back to the fringes of the party and perhaps politics can become a much more sensible place.  

Call me a hopeless visionary if you like, but its important to dream.

I like your thinking in some ways, but how about we go a little further and incorporate those two, plus a few others (Johnson, Cameron, Rees-Mogg, Corbyn etc) into a real-life human centipede à la the rather nasty film of the same title? Word to the wise: if you don't know anything about this film (and its subsequent sequels), probably best it remains that way...

Christ! Imagine having your mouth stiched to Johnson's arse?

Can't believe there's a woman who fancies her mouth on either end, but there probably are!

At least whichever sad sack is busy giving red bars to the last few comments would be more than happy to oblige being stitched to Johnson's arse