Wales RWC 2019 thread Number II

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

WALES’ 2019 RWC SQUAD:

Forwards: Jake Ball, Adam Beard, Rhys Carre, James Davies, Elliot Dee, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Dillon Lewis, Ross Moriarty, Josh Navidi, Ken Owens, Aaron Shingler, Nicky Smith, Justin Tipuric, Aaron Wainwright.

Backs: Josh Adams, Hallam Amos, Dan Biggar, Aled Davies, Gareth Davies, Jonathan Davies, Leigh Halfpenny, George North, Hadleigh Parkes, Rhys Patchell, Owen Watkin, Liam Williams, Tomos Williams.

Pool D

AUSTRALIA, WALES, GEORGIA, FIJI, URUGUAY

Match 1

Australia vs Fiji... Sapporo Dome... Saturday, September 21... 5.45am BST... (ITV)

Match 2

Wales vs Georgia... City of Toyota Stadium... Monday, September 23... 11.15am BST... (ITV)

Match 3

Fiji vs Uruguay... Kamaishi Recovery Memorial Stadium... Wednesday, September 25... 6.15am BST... (ITV 4)

Match 4

Georgia vs Uruguay... Kumagaya Rugby Stadium... Sunday, September 29... 6.15am BST... (ITV)

Match 5

Australia vs Wales... Tokyo Stadium... Sunday, September 29... 8.45am BST... (ITV)

Match 6

Georgia vs Fiji... Hanazono Rugby Stadium... Thursday, October 3... 6.15am BST... (ITV 4)

Match 7

Australia vs Uruguay... Oita Stadium... Saturday, October 5... 6.15am BST... (ITV)

Match 8

Wales vs Fiji... Oita Stadium... Wednesday, October 9... 10.45am BST... (ITV)

Match 9

Australia vs Georgia... Shizuoka Stadium Ecopa... Friday, October 11... 11.15am BST... (ITV 4)

Match 10

Wales vs Uruguay... Kumamoto Stadium... Sunday, October 13... 9.15am BST... (ITV)

[lostinwales]

Perhaps I'd ask one final question - was the Grand Slam worth this?

But where England were in development mode - with one game against Ireland like they showed against NZ: ruthless and all tactical preparations to nullify their game - Wales kept things samey, simple, countering and spoling and doing enough to grind out wins v Italy, England, Scotland, and even Ireland in the end. Was it worth risking one final 6Ns title - a title we hadn't held in 6 years? - to go without playing different tactics, different players, different priorities?

Maybe it was.

At least we have that title, at least Gatland won one more having marginally missed out in 15, 17, 18, and even 09.

Just wonder if we did get the prep right this time, as in the end a fairly ordinary SA got past us on physicality alone.

Perhaps another question - was the game against England at Twickenham, where we played it like a must win game, worth it for the top spot?

Just wonder if Gatland stuck rather than twisted in the final 6 months when before that everything had looked pretty good, building towards the WC with intent.

Maybe in the end it's irrelevant as the players weren't there.

In the 6N you played England at Cardiff, which has become a fortress for Wales.

[Guest]

Weird. No more of a fortress than any other home ground. This point was made pre tournament. Seems parochial and more than a little bit xenophobic.

Teams are more likely to win at home - shock.

Wales' issue was beating the SH teams, not bottling it away from home at the same rate other teams do. England lost to Scotland in 2018 for the first time in a decade or so, Wales in 2017 for the same duration. Considering the relative 'levels' of teams, I really don't think Wales underperform away from home whatsoever - this WC proved that. Beat Australia, but still not enough to sneak past SA. Thing is, if Wales had played that same game in Cardiff, people would attribute the 'comeback' to the crowd - seems lazy tbh, and irrelevant to pick that out for Wales no one else.

Twickenham is a fortress, Eden Park is a fortress. Yeah...shock horror, teams play better at home.

[Guest]

Unfortunately a case of what might have been - not so much if scraped past SA and played a final with the team as it stands, but rather keeping enough players fit to get to the final and then face a clearly fallable England, who Gatland enjoys outthinking when it matters. Erasmum did Edde today, as did his players - shame. What might have been...

[Taylorman]

Weird. No more of a fortress than any other home ground. This point was made pre tournament. Seems parochial and more than a little bit xenophobic.

Teams are more likely to win at home - shock.

Wales' issue was beating the SH teams, not bottling it away from home at the same rate other teams do. England lost to Scotland in 2018 for the first time in a decade or so, Wales in 2017 for the same duration. Considering the relative 'levels' of teams, I really don't think Wales underperform away from home whatsoever - this WC proved that. Beat Australia, but still not enough to sneak past SA. Thing is, if Wales had played that same game in Cardiff, people would attribute the 'comeback' to the crowd - seems lazy tbh, and irrelevant to pick that out for Wales no one else.

Twickenham is a fortress, Eden Park is a fortress. Yeah...shock horror, teams play better at home.

Dunno, we have better records than Wales at Cardiff, England at Twickers, Ireland at Dublin, France at Paris. Fortress is not a word we readily identify those venues with.

[majesticimperialman]

With regards to the Wales v France game.

Is there an enquiry into the photo of Yaco Piper and the Welsh fans mocking the elbow in to the face of the Welsh player Wainright and the red card?

[Pie]

With regards to the Wales v France game.

Is there an enquiry into the photo of Yaco Piper and the Welsh fans mocking the elbow in to the face of the Welsh player Wainright and the red card?

Only amongst the Outraged and offended Woke Millenial element

[Guest]

12 players injured before or during the course of the tournament to the point they missed games.

2 more players who, during the 2017 Lions tour, we all thought would be available and starting in this WC.

That's 14 players missing overall who would have been key player, starters, or at the very least important bench options.

Fair to say that that's a starting team, and once again, injuries f'd Wales from bringing their best to this tournament. A close semi final is admirable in the circumstances.

[Taylorman]

Yes it is. Very much so.

[mikey_dragon]

Yes it is. Very much so.

Nice of you to admit that Tman. I would agree that injuries did really hamper us, it started before the 6N. Usually I wouldn't complain but everyone else in KO stages seemed to have a full bill of health! But, it's about how you manage the squad and overall I think we did okay with that.

There are a lot of players to come back in, hopefully a few for the upcoming 6N. I wonder if we'll have a new captain by then? It's probably time to start phasing out AWJ, but seeing as Pivac needs to hit the ground running I suspect he'll be a starter and our captain for another year at least. If he's to play a part on the Lions tour I imagine it's leading the mid-week team.

[majesticimperialman]

Mikey.

Who would be the next captain of Wales? does any one stand out in your mind?

[Old Man]

12 players injured before or during the course of the tournament to the point they missed games.

2 more players who, during the 2017 Lions tour, we all thought would be available and starting in this WC.

That's 14 players missing overall who would have been key player, starters, or at the very least important bench options.

Fair to say that that's a starting team, and once again, injuries f'd Wales from bringing their best to this tournament. A close semi final is admirable in the circumstances.

That is a high attrition rate.

[Taylorman]

12 players injured before or during the course of the tournament to the point they missed games.

2 more players who, during the 2017 Lions tour, we all thought would be available and starting in this WC.

That's 14 players missing overall who would have been key player, starters, or at the very least important bench options.

Fair to say that that's a starting team, and once again, injuries f'd Wales from bringing their best to this tournament. A close semi final is admirable in the circumstances.

That is a high attrition rate.

Sounds like the Chiefs a couple of seasons ago but they were even worse, something like 18,19 players out. But for Wales it was a few key players. They'd finally settled on Anscombe as the main 10 and just as he was providing consistency he gets injured, then Faletau as well, along with a string of others. If any sides played above themselves I guess it was Japan and Wales, SA to a lesser degree, one of the favourites anyway.

[Guest]

It is a high attrition rate. It's a sign of how hard we have to play to compete, the style of rugby played, but also the leap of standard from the regions to the test arena. The Pro14 doesn't prepare the side well as it's just so less physical. Comapred to the 4 SFists, it's some way behind Super Rugby and the English Premiership in terms of prep. At least the Irish usualy get in to some big European games to test themselves, but generally they also play a more physical game than in Wales. That, and bad luck, and maybe bad conditioning - two hanstring injuries, to Navidi and North, suggests not prepping/warming up for the conditions and the pitches, although it's hard to tell. But it's a common thing for Wales, particularly as we have such a small pool of players.

Next captain? Looks like Cory Hill and Ellis Jenkins after Tipuric. None in the Warburton or AWJ mould. For the future, if not Cory Hill or Ellis, as they're mid to late 20s themselves, there's not a clear candidate. Ideally you want them to be in the back 5 of the pack.

[LordDowlais]

In my opinion, this was the best chance ever to win a world cup, and we were a refereeing decision from making the final.

Now, and I know I will get kicked for saying this, but we will never get this chance again. This is the last good Welsh side we will ever have, unless we make changes with Welsh domestic rugby.

The regions are a joke, they play in a competition that most of Wales does not care or know about, we will have to get used to Wales being average at best again, and Wayne Pivoc has a lot of work on his hands.

[gowershowerpower]

You really do spout some tripe. Off it again I take it?

'maybe bad conditioning - two hanstring injuries, to Navidi and North, suggests not prepping/warming up for the conditions and the pitches, although it's hard to tell'

You honestly think that this professional outfit do not 'prep/warm up'.

get a grip you twonk.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

In my opinion, this was the best chance ever to win a world cup, and we were a refereeing decision from making the final.

Now, and I know I will get kicked for saying this, but we will never get this chance again. This is the last good Welsh side we will ever have, unless we make changes with Welsh domestic rugby.

The regions are a joke, they play in a competition that most of Wales does not care or know about, we will have to get used to Wales being average at best again, and Wayne Pivoc has a lot of work on his hands.

No, we were a refereeing decision away from extra time.

[Guest]

You really do spout some tripe. Off it again I take it?

'maybe bad conditioning - two hanstring injuries, to Navidi and North, suggests not prepping/warming up for the conditions and the pitches, although it's hard to tell'

You honestly think that this professional outfit do not 'prep/warm up'.

get a grip you twonk.

thinking's not your strong point. nor writing. nor existing.

[gowershowerpower]

Hahaha, and rugby certainly isn't yours.

So Navidi didn't warm up, then sat on his arse for 27 minutes, then jumped up and pulled a hammy? Similarly for North? He just sat around for 39 minutes, then jumped up and also pulled a hammy?

Thinking's not your mediocre point, is it. 'Although it's hard to tell'....like you have some secret fountain of knowledge...hahaha. Off it.

[Guest]

you're out of your depth, showerof****

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

[gowershowerpower]

Brilliant.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=man sausage%20knocker

One for you.

[Guest]

lol. the link doesn't work. as i said, thinking AND writing...not good...!

[gowershowerpower]

Not very bright are you. Why would you need the link to work. It is very very evident what it is. The fact it was changed, amuses me so much more.
But anyway, do you seriously believe that they didn't warm up? That they are poorly conditioned? You're so far from the truth, it is hilarious.

[Guest]

i believe the jibe about brightness is called 'projection'. give it up. youre very angry and offensive for absolutely no need. im not going to make the mods' lives harder by continuing engaging. if you genuinely dont understand the point, then more fool you.

[gowershowerpower]

Not angry. You're only offended because your point is irrelevant and erroneous.
Anyway, disengage away...

[Guest]

i'm not offender, i'm just saying you're needlessly offensive. you contribute nothing but mean words.

[Guest]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-50283520

Hmmm...Gower...cruel words...hmmmm...

[LordDowlais]

In my opinion, this was the best chance ever to win a world cup, and we were a refereeing decision from making the final.

Now, and I know I will get kicked for saying this, but we will never get this chance again. This is the last good Welsh side we will ever have, unless we make changes with Welsh domestic rugby.

The regions are a joke, they play in a competition that most of Wales does not care or know about, we will have to get used to Wales being average at best again, and Wayne Pivoc has a lot of work on his hands.

No, we were a refereeing decision away from extra time.

I was talking about the pen we were not given when SA collapsed our maul before they had their pen.

[Guest]

Christ there's some childish people on here!

[LordDowlais]

Christ there's some childish people on here!

Who ? Me ?

[LondonTiger]

Christ there's some childish people on here!

Who ? Me ?

I suspect Oracle is talking about the "conversation" between LP replying to you, and your reply back to him.

[LordDowlais]

Christ there's some childish people on here!

Who ? Me ?

I suspect Oracle is talking about the "conversation" between LP replying to you, and your reply back to him.

Again, somebody will need to explain where I am being childish as I do not want to get on the wrong side of some dubious moderating again.

[LondonTiger]

Christ there's some childish people on here!

Who ? Me ?

I suspect Oracle is talking about the "conversation" between LP replying to you, and your reply back to him.

Again, somebody will need to explain where I am being childish as I do not want to get on the wrong side of some dubious moderating again.

No it is not you he is accusing of being childish, it is the conversation of other people that sits between LP replying to you and you replying to him.

[LordDowlais]

Christ there's some childish people on here!

Who ? Me ?

I suspect Oracle is talking about the "conversation" between LP replying to you, and your reply back to him.

Again, somebody will need to explain where I am being childish as I do not want to get on the wrong side of some dubious moderating again.

No it is not you he is accusing of being childish, it is the conversation of other people that sits between LP replying to you and you replying to him.

Ah OK. Point taken. Sorry.

I will just go about my business then.

[LondonTiger]

No worries, my first response was ambiguous now I read it back.

[Guest]

Yes, it was the tit for tat school playground stuff above. Had the misfortune of reading that when I came in this morning! Apologies LD, not you.

[LordDowlais]

No worries guys, my fault for not understanding.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It's all Oracle's fault.

[Guest]

[Guest]

Tit for tat is indeed correct. Particularly the former...

[Guest]

Now the dust has settled a bit, and considering the way we played - we'll never really know what/if Howley being there might have aided our attacking game in crucial periods (like the North botched pass v France that would have tied the game up earlier than they did; or v SA).

But considering the rugby Wales did actually play, and considering the clear rejection of Scott Williams as a viable 12 option...I almost feel Gatland would have been better off just bringing Jamie Roberts back and throwing him in at the last moment. He can still do the crashball stuff better than just about any centre in the game, and thinking back to the way Wales played and won big games up until the GS this year...I dunno. I'm not really a fan of Roberts, but I can't help but feel we picked an inferior version of him in Parkes. At least, we asked Parkes to do Roberts' job and he couldn't.

[majesticimperialman]

I asked this question on the scottish thread.

How many of this welsh squad that was in the RWC, will make the 6ns squad?

[Guest]

The vast majority, maj, barring injury. If you also factor in the likes of Cory Hill and Faletau etc. who would have been called up.

Rhys Carre's in England so probably won't, Rob Evans back in. Parkes might miss out for Scott Williams, but doubt it. Probably no room for Owen Lane and a few other fringe players. James Davies, Hal Amos, and Aled Davies all under threat.

5-6 players missing with injury pre tournament so they'll come back in if recovered. Ellis Jenkins, Faletau, Cory Hill, Anscombe etc.

[Dirtydave]

For the 6N I think we can add the likes of:

Rob evans
Cory Hill
Falatau
Gareth Anscombe

To this squad, of which are there any notice retirees?

I think there are a few players who can drop out of the squad, maybe even the starting 15 without too much of a loss:

Nicky Smith
Ryan Elias
James davies
Aaron shinglar
Aled davies
Hallam Amos

And dare I say it... George North.

There are able and possibly more exciting replacements ready to go

[mikey_dragon]

Definitely wouldn’t drop Shingler. I’m a little doubtful of Anscombe and Jenkins being available too.

[Guest]

Not sure what Shingler and, in particular, Elias have done to get dropped. Then again, Gatland' almost thrown a spanner in the works picking James Davies - Pivac's biased if he keeps him, biased if he drops him.

Back to the old days of Welsh rugby...

[Rugby Fan]

Nice story here about Wales and Kitakyushu trading thank you messages.

https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20191108/p2a/00m/0na/003000c

[Dirtydave]

Ive been a fan of shinglar previously, however he's been on the slide for a while, and never quite made the step to international rugby.

Pre world cup he was rag dolled against England and ireland, and realistically he's been lock cover for the crisis at the world cup.

Not powerfull enough for lock, not dynamic enough for the back row, won't make the next world cup, why keep him in the squad as a potential bench man when younger and better need gametime?

[mikey_dragon]

We haven’t really seen much of Shingler, but he has still shown that he’s capable of picking up where he’s left off. More suitable game time is required, which he’ll get with Scarlets. I don’t recall him getting rag dolled as you put it. I also don’t see the point of dumping him for the sake of bringing in a younger player? You just pick the best team available, otherwise you could just be throwing in new guys to a losing environment.

[Guest]

Shingler hadn't played for 18 months, Dave. He built up slowly and did ok from the bench in the RWC.

Realistically he's got 1-2 more years of top class rugby in him at most, so may as well use him - particularly as a way of bringing Wainwright on. They look similar players but Wainwright's got a bit less height and strength, so would be good to have that option of using Shingler as/when needed. Overall, I still think Shingler is the best 6 option Wales can go for if they want to play 'dynamic' rugby - far more dynamic than Moriarty, Navidi etc.

As for ragdolled - AWJ gets that treatment at least once a game. Doesn't mean he's a bad player.

[Dirtydave]

Did either of you guys watch the English and Irish warm up games? He was massively under cooked, and it was almost an embarrassment watching a guy that size so physically outmatched. I, like you, believed it was the injury return, and considering our lock crisis taking him to the world cup was a must.

He's not a starting 6 option in reality, it would prove costly against the likes of England and France. Wainright has proven quality, dynamism and athleticism. Navidi is also a better 6 option. Fingers crosse Falatau is on the mend, Tipuric is standout. That's 4 better options right there, Moriarty I agree is struggling, but with a number of talented back rowers behind this group, Davies, Young, Griffiths, Robinson, jenkins etc...

It's non sensical, without another lock crisis to persist.

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