RWC final 19 - England v SA Match Thread - 02-11-2019 - Kick Off 09:00am

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

The big one. The Rugby World Cup Final.

ENGLAND

Elliot Daly; Anthony Watson, Manu Tuilagi, Owen Farrell, Jonny May, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Jamie George, Kyle Sinckler, Maro Itoje, Courtney Lawes, Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Billy Vunipola

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, George Kruis, Mark Wilson, Ben Spencer, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph

SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Kolbe, Am, De Allende, Mapimpi; Pollard, De Klerk; Mtawarira, Mbonambi, Malherbe, Etzebeth, De Jager, Kolisi (capt), Du Toit, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Marx, Kitschoff, Koch, Snyman, Mostert, Louw, H Jantjies, Steyn

Venue: International Stadium, Yokohama
Referee: Jerome Garces
AR1: Romain Poite
AR2: Ben O'Keefe
TMO: Ben Skeen

Head to Head

42 Played 42
15 Won 25
25 Lost 15
2 Drawn 2

Recent Form

16 June 2012
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
36 – 27 to South Africa

23 June 2012
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium,
Port Elizabeth
14 – 14 draw

24 November 2012
Twickenham, London
15 – 16 to South Africa

15 November 2014
Twickenham, London
28 – 31 to South Africa

12 November 2016
Twickenham, London
37 – 21 to England

9 June 2018
Ellis Park, Johannesburg
42 – 39 to South Africa

16 June 2018
Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
23 – 12 to South Africa

23 June 2018
Newlands, Cape Town
10 – 25 to England

3 November 2018
Twickenham, London
12 – 11 to England

[SecretFly]

Feels like a long weight now. I'm high on anticipation for the biggest match of all between two giants of the game.

Is that the "long weight" you were sent to B&Q to buy?

Or are we back to size and girth conversations?

It's a technical term for the specialist weight category by which SA players are assessed by their coaches.  They got a head start on England there.  Back to disputed online weight charts for further debate

Tartan paint is a lot cheaper since the group stages.

Hmmm....

Putting on me Sherlock Holmes hat, based on I think a few comments by Goose now....does he think I'm Scottish?

Do you, Goose?  I'll play my violin badly as I await your answer.

[Recwatcher16]

South Africa's most important player is Du Toit. If he can slow down the England ruck ball, they have a chance. If England keep up the pace and get around the corner at the thirteen, they will have a field day.

If SA just keep it narrow and try to run at Ford, the outside in defence should just swallow them up and will resort to kicking but I wonder if the criticism on last week's game will stick and SA will attempt to be more expansive, where Curry and Underhill will be waiting. The much underrated performance last weekend was Lawes who hit hard in every tackle and seems to be getting better with every game.
Surely England can't lose this one ? Even the ref is reasonably sympathetic to the English game style, although undoubtedly it will be alternate penalties at best from the ref. As always in finals it will probably be close but I reckon England by 12.

[SecretFly]

I don't think SA will give a damn about criticism of last week's game. That's not to say they won't attempt more expansiveness at times. But basically, they'll be trying to win the game any way they can.

[Gooseberry]

Feels like a long weight now. I'm high on anticipation for the biggest match of all between two giants of the game.

Is that the "long weight" you were sent to B&Q to buy?

Or are we back to size and girth conversations?

It's a technical term for the specialist weight category by which SA players are assessed by their coaches.  They got a head start on England there.  Back to disputed online weight charts for further debate

Tartan paint is a lot cheaper since the group stages.

Hmmm....

Putting on me Sherlock Holmes hat, based on I think a few comments by Goose now....does he think I'm Scottish?

Do you, Goose?  I'll play my violin badly as I await your answer.

No I was responding to the long weight comment ....I just quoted your post needlessly. There doesnt have to be a specific scotslander around to get cheap digs in

[SecretFly]

It'll be one of those cute circular things if SA manage the win.

England will have beaten New Zealand, who have beaten SA, who have beaten England.

And in that scenario, best team in the world would be???

[Gooseberry]

It'll be one of those cute circular things if SA manage the win.

England will have beaten New Zealand, who have beaten SA, who have beaten England.

And in that scenario, best team in the world would be???

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

But SA would be world cup holders and won the rugby championship despite only getting one home fixture. Any win would put them top of the world rankings too. I think that makes them worthy of the best team in the world tag.

[Afro]

It'll be one of those cute circular things if SA manage the win.

England will have beaten New Zealand, who have beaten SA, who have beaten England.

And in that scenario, best team in the world would be???

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

But SA would be world cup holders and won the rugby championship despite only getting one home fixture. I think that makes them worthy of the best team in the world tag.

Don't forget SA also played all their scheduled fixtures so their win wouldn't be devalued

[TightHEAD]

We need a new match thread, don't want this one filling up during the game.

I wonder how many tries England will have disallowed for a tiny suspected knock on 30 phases back.

[LondonTiger]

We need a new match thread, don't want this one filling up during the game.

I wonder how many tries England will have disallowed for a tiny suspected knock on 30 phases back.

Does it matter if it fills up. Only people that should be posting during the game (h/T excluded) are neutrals.

[Scottrf]

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

[Gooseberry]

It'll be one of those cute circular things if SA manage the win.

England will have beaten New Zealand, who have beaten SA, who have beaten England.

And in that scenario, best team in the world would be???

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

But SA would be world cup holders and won the rugby championship despite only getting one home fixture. I think that makes them worthy of the best team in the world tag.

Don't forget SA also played all their scheduled fixtures so their win wouldn't be devalued

Vital point! 

Another thing ...if England win the only team to have beaten them in the last game they played head to head will be Wales. Which makes Wales moral best team in the world.

[Rugby Fan]

Hakatime is like a Miaow of YouTube. This is his final 12 minute video following up three others with around an hour of analysis of the game on Saturday.



He thinks Jones prepared his team to beat New Zealand, while Erasmus has prepared his to win a World Cup. He thinks England will make a fast start but, doesn't think attack will win the final. He envisages South Africa staying close, or even getting ahead, and then going on to win by a close margin.

[Heaf]

It'll be one of those cute circular things if SA manage the win.

England will have beaten New Zealand, who have beaten SA, who have beaten England.

And in that scenario, best team in the world would be???

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

But SA would be world cup holders and won the rugby championship despite only getting one home fixture. Any win would put them top of the world rankings too. I think that makes them worthy of the best team in the world tag.

???

[Gooseberry]

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

Im not counting todays fixture a as proper competitive game...I thought the caveat was clearly explained? 

Wales can beat anyone on their day so long as you make up ridiculous exclusions to prove the point.

[Heaf]

It'll be one of those cute circular things if SA manage the win.

England will have beaten New Zealand, who have beaten SA, who have beaten England.

And in that scenario, best team in the world would be???

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

But SA would be world cup holders and won the rugby championship despite only getting one home fixture. I think that makes them worthy of the best team in the world tag.

Don't forget SA also played all their scheduled fixtures so their win wouldn't be devalued

Or we could say England missing one meant they were undercooked

[TightHEAD]

Poor attitude Tiger, why should a neutral have their experience spoiled?

[Scottrf]

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

Im not counting todays fixture a as proper competitive game...I thought the caveat was clearly explained? 

Wales can beat anyone on their day so long as you make up ridiculous exclusions to prove the point.

When did they beat NZ?

[Heaf]

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

Im not counting todays fixture a as proper competitive game...I thought the caveat was clearly explained? 

Wales can beat anyone on their day so long as you make up ridiculous exclusions to prove the point.

When did Wales last beat NZ?

[Rugby Fan]

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

Im not counting todays fixture a as proper competitive game...I thought the caveat was clearly explained? 

Wales can beat anyone on their day so long as you make up ridiculous exclusions to prove the point.

When did Wales last beat NZ?

[Gooseberry]

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

Im not counting todays fixture a as proper competitive game...I thought the caveat was clearly explained? 

Wales can beat anyone on their day so long as you make up ridiculous exclusions to prove the point.

When did Wales last beat NZ?

Christ Id somehow got it in my head thed won in the AIs but that was Aus wasnt it that all the hoo ha was about 

OK ignore that but the point is if England win the world cup then Wales are the best team in the world on head to head in 2019.

[Taylorman]

On paper? On rock? Or on scissors?

Dont forget Wales beat NZ and England in their last proper competitive fixtures, and only narrowly lost to SA. The game today was a bit of a joke.

Im not counting todays fixture a as proper competitive game...I thought the caveat was clearly explained? 

Wales can beat anyone on their day so long as you make up ridiculous exclusions to prove the point.

When did Wales last beat NZ?

When Churchill was PM.

[TightHEAD]

But did they really beat them, I heard NZ won, morally, that day.

[Taylorman]

Dunno, don’t know anyone still living that saw it.

[Rugby Fan]

Christ Id somehow got it in my head thed won in the AIs but that was Aus wasnt it that all the hoo ha was about 

OK ignore that but the point is if England win the world cup then Wales are the best team in the world on head to head in 2019.

I came very late to recognizing how much Gatland did for Wales, and how that reflects on his ability as a coach. I feel badly for him that he didn't get a win over the All Blacks as I don't think it was as out of reach as it might have seemed at the time. I suspect it was as much about timing as anything, since Wales often had ropey Autumn International seasons.

[Afro]

Vital point! 

Another thing ...if England win the only team to have beaten them in the last game they played head to head will be Wales. Which makes Wales moral best team in the world.

France got a draw in the last "game" v England whilst Wales beat them

[tigertattie]

Sooooooooo

Trying to get back to the game.

Peiter Steph Du Toit named as a player of the year candidate. A player I rate highly and works in a balanced back row with Kolisi.

England have the Undercurry combo. For me, SA edge this due to more big game experience.

Other than that though I see England being stronger across the field

[Gooseberry]

Dunno, don’t know anyone still living that saw it.

Not many made it through Wales vs SA semi alive tbf

[No 7&1/2]

Are we talking height or weight?

[Guest]

Hakatime is like a Miaow of YouTube. This is his final 12 minute video following up three others with around an hour of analysis of the game on Saturday.



He thinks Jones prepared his team to beat New Zealand, while Erasmus has prepared his to win a World Cup. He thinks England will make a fast start but, doesn't think attack will win the final. He envisages South Africa staying close, or even getting ahead, and then going on to win by a close margin.

Haven't watched the video but by and large I'd agree with that.

However, preparing your team to beat NZ is also a great way to win the RWC.

We saw what happened to England after they prepared to beat Ireland - they didn't really back it up, certainly against Wales. There isn't a Scotland-esque meltdown in them (surely...?) but if this is close/within 5 points at 60 minutes this will be the big test for England, to see the leadership and everything else.

[RDW]

We're on the eve of the biggest rugby match of the last 4 years and this thread has descended into mass poo flinging.

We're on here to talk about rugby so let's keep it that way please.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

This thread has become absolutely ridiculous. I've had to give two people a time out just to give the place some breathing space.

I will clean it up in due course, but some of you need to have a look at yourself and, hopefully, come to the conclusion that it's embarrassing.

I feel for the people who want to enjoy it and want to enjoy the circus around what is a momentous occasion. As someone who won't be looking at this final as a huge event to remember in my life, I can easily pay attention to this thread tomorrow during the game. I will happily deal with people trying to ruin it

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Great minds

Old Man/Biltong - only took your post out to clear up. Lovely to see you jumping back and absolutely understand why you'd sneak in with a new user too.

[No 7&1/2]

England v South Africa: Owen Farrell - England's World Cup talisman - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50261047

Has farrell been underrated as a leader? Pretty complimentary here. Good world cup for leadership so far. 1 more step eh.

[Old Man]

Cheers mate.

[Collapse2005]

So do I but suspect the understanding might be slightly different. It was also kind of obvious Old Man was Billtong. Nothing gets past the punters on here.

[Rugby Fan]

Some England fans flying out late had to go via HK. The connecting Cathay flights got held up. I've heard they have just landed at Narita now, which is not great news, as all the trains and buses have finished. It's £100 taxi to Tokyo, or £250 to Yokohama, where some chose to stay, because it's near the stadium.

It's past midnight here in Japan, and my phone has started going off. I just know it'll be mates of mates of mates looking for assistance/a floor for the night.

[Collapse2005]

Some England fans flying out late had to go via HK. The connecting Cathay flights got held up. I've heard they have just landed at Narita now, which is not great news, as all the trains and buses have finished. It's £100 taxi to Tokyo, or £250 to Yokohama, where some chose to stay, because it's near the stadium.

It's past midnight here in Japan, and my phone has started going off. I just know it'll be mates of mates of mates looking for assistance/a floor for the night.

Do what I did when I landed in Osaka, stay in a capsule until the trains start up again in the morning. Narita probably has a capsule hotel.

[Rugby Fan]

Some England fans flying out late had to go via HK. The connecting Cathay flights got held up. I've heard they have just landed at Narita now, which is not great news, as all the trains and buses have finished. It's £100 taxi to Tokyo, or £250 to Yokohama, where some chose to stay, because it's near the stadium.

It's past midnight here in Japan, and my phone has started going off. I just know it'll be mates of mates of mates looking for assistance/a floor for the night.

Do what I did when I landed in Osaka, stay in a capsule until the trains start up again in the morning. Narita probably has a capsule hotel.

It does...and it's fully booked...

https://ninehours.co.jp/narita/

[Collapse2005]

Ah bugger. Id imagine there are a few others within a short taxi ride too though. There is a nine hours in Osaka too.

I had the sleep of my life in the capsule I stayed in. I guess I was lucky as I hadnt booked it, I just rocked up at 5am and slept until midday.

[lostinwales]

England v South Africa: Owen Farrell - England's World Cup talisman - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50261047

Has farrell been underrated as a leader? Pretty complimentary here. Good world cup for leadership so far. 1 more step eh.

I suspect he's improved a great deal since first given the job. He does seem a lot more mature too. Isn't obviously winding the opposition up as much (baring the odd wink mid haka).

The whole team has been so up and down the last couple of years - but it just feels as if every piece has slotted into place at just the right time.

[Soul Requiem]

The team hasn't been under a lot of stress during the tournament so difficult to judge the mental side of things, Underhill marmalising Jordie Barrett quickly alleviated things last week.

[lostinwales]

The team hasn't been under a lot of stress during the tournament so difficult to judge the mental side of things, Underhill marmalising Jordie Barrett quickly alleviated things last week.

That was late on though. As far as I can remember Underhill seemed to marmalise most of the AB's at some point. There was that tackle on the Australian no.8 too.

[Soul Requiem]

The team hasn't been under a lot of stress during the tournament so difficult to judge the mental side of things, Underhill marmalising Jordie Barrett quickly alleviated things last week.

That was late on though. As far as I can remember Underhill seemed to marmalise most of the AB's at some point. There was that tackle on the Australian no.8 too.

The score was 13-7 at the time I do believe.

[RiscaGame]

England v South Africa: Owen Farrell - England's World Cup talisman - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50261047

Has farrell been underrated as a leader? Pretty complimentary here. Good world cup for leadership so far. 1 more step eh.

I suspect he's improved a great deal since first given the job. He does seem a lot more mature too. Isn't obviously winding the opposition up as much (baring the odd wink mid haka).

The whole team has been so up and down the last couple of years - but it just feels as if every piece has slotted into place at just the right time.

I was thinking about Farrell as a leader the other day and he’s not as regarded as an AWJ in this WC (for example) and I thought when England win the WC, you probably wouldn’t class him as influential as Johnson was, but he is clearly doing something right.

To be fair, it must be like his dad was for Wigan, where he’s just a natural leader and quite understated in what he does. I love him as a player though. I went through a stage of having to explain what his linked finger “celebration” meant to other people and that shows the measure of the man, constantly getting exposure for Joining Jack.

[SecretFly]

Christ, a lot of red ink being spilled now!  Must be a World Cup final on the horizon.

There will be blood!         (sorry that last one was just a misplaced replay of the game earlier)

[No 7&1/2]

I'm keen to get to the composite team thread. Will it be 03 or 07 though.

[Poorfour]

I'm keen to get to the composite team thread. Will it be 03 or 07 though.

Regardless of the result tomorrow, I am not sure how many of the 03 players would make it into this squad. For what it's worth, my view would be:
- Jason Leonard might have shaded Cole.
- I don't think Johnson would displace Itoje or Lawes but maybe Kruis.
- Richard Hill (and I can't quite believe I'm writing this) would make the bench on current form. Six weeks ago he'd have been inked in at 6, and it says everything about how well Curry and Underhill have done that he's finally been displaced.
- 2003 Dallaglio vs 2019 Billy... Dayglo might just shade it, but only because Billy isn't quite there
- Dawson and Bracken displace Youngs and Spencer.
- 10 & 12 is probably the most difficult choice. 2003 Wilkinson & Greenwood vs 2019 Ford and Farrell? I'm tempted to start Ford and Farrell and put the other two on the bench.
- Tuilagi over Tindall any day, though. At least while he's fit.
- Wings and Fullback are interesting... Ben Cohen is still quite underestimated but I reckon he was worth 10 points a game. 3 because his try scoring rate was 1 in 2, and the other 7 because he made a try saving tackle almost every game. Lewsey was a great defensive fullback and Robinson was a superb broken field runner, though by 2003 defences were getting better at closing him down. Before the tournament I was very worried about England's back three defensively, but they've done well, and I think - if they're all fit - they offer more in attack.

07? Forget it. I'm not sure there's anyone in that squad I'd pick over the '19 squad. Sheridan probably comes closest, but he was built for the hit and wasn't a technical enough scrummager for today's game. I'm tempted to stick Nick Easter on the bench as a player who brings a different style of play (as Brian Ashton put it "he's got some subtlety, and that gives you different options"). But probably not.

[Taylorman]

Only issue I see is overconfidence for England. Boks will certainly try to stop them playing and have toiled away at best this tournament.

Seems the thirst for red cards died off almost as quickly as they arrived so wonder if they’ll make a unwelcome return for someone with emotions obviously high.

Battle of the loosies will again be key, England’s ability to turn ball over will be key here again.

[Gooseberry]

Poor four...think you're getting ahead of yourself.
The 03 or 07 was will ot be a combined england or SA world cup winners team


It's the fans with the overconfidence and hubris. As has been pointed out the celebrations etc from england didn't really suggest they felt they'd won the cup vs the way SA acted after beating Wales.

England seem to have their mental game spot in for this tournament. I also dont buy the "only prepared for the kiwis" argument. They specifically adapted for Aus and played noticeably differently against NZ based on what they'd seen in the ireland game, not whatbtheyd seen over the last year. If they can adapt their play in a week for NZ they can do it for SA.

To me the biggest dangers are SA winning the chess game and scuppering whatever tactics England deploy, an unfortunate early card/controversial decision ...discipline has been really good but it's still a game of small margins and players will be hyped up, then just nerves pressure and unforced errors. Having a 9 on the bench who hasn't played in months and is probably not match fit has to be a small worry too.

They really should win.

SA by 9

[Scottrf]

I don’t even fear jinxing it. We will win this game. It’s just the logical deduction, not overconfidence.

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