RWC Final 2019 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA - Spill Over/Match Reaction Thread

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

other one's getting full

[Taylorman]

Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

Not everything is about you, personally.

No, but it is CLEARLY, about you.

[majesticimperialman]

Eddie Jones said Sincklers injury didn’t have a big impact, he couldn’t explain why they didn’t perform though. I think he was being disingenuous though, South Africa were more physical and England struggled to get on the front foot.

Also the much vaunted tactical kicking of England were very well dealt with by South Africa’s back three including also Duane Vermeulen who were superb.

I do some time this there is to much kicking in a game, it seems to be kick it up the air and try and catch it-rather than kick for the corner and force a line out.....but then how good is your line out, and how good id your opponent's line out?

No England fell short to very good Springbok team. who like Sean Fitzpatrick said, they just keep knocking on the door they never give up.
England gave away too many penalties at scrum time SA had us (England) over a barrel, time after time, Pollard kicked the points and England could not keep up with them.

[Guest]

Eddie Jones said Sincklers injury didn’t have a big impact, he couldn’t explain why they didn’t perform though. I think he was being disingenuous though, South Africa were more physical and England struggled to get on the front foot.

Also the much vaunted tactical kicking of England were very well dealt with by South Africa’s back three including also Duane Vermeulen who were superb.

Vermeulen was intense today. Bossed Billy in the head to head at 8. All the power of Vunipola with some extra, and more mobility as well.

On the EJ point, it's clever from him again. Don't give them a headline, don't give ammunition to journalists to start focusing on the areas England lost - also creates doubt in their mind. If EJ doesn't know, then what journalist is confident enough to say 'no, I know what happened even if EJ doesn't - it's this, this, and this'. That said, as with anything like this, there's always a grain of truth, and I think EJ did assume/hope England had the firepower to impose their game on SA. He didn't really prepare to play like Wales did and keep themselves in the game and grind out a narrow win - there wasn't too much game management from England, particularly second half, which suggests he didn't know what went wrong and how, on the day, to adapt and get around the opposition in front of them.

Fiar play to EJ I didn't think he had this resurgence in him - always predicted he'd do very well then dip, before a middling recovery, but didn't think he'd come so close to what would have been a much celebrated and praised WC victory, even if they had won 6-3 today in a slugfest. But not enough in the end, not enough to win.

[Guest]

Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

Not everything is about you, personally.

No, but it is CLEARLY, about you.

I'm contributing interesting points in relation to the game. I'm not talking about myself in combination with my rugby team as 'we', particularly when it has minimal relevance to the point in question. We're talking about British/English journalists, talking heads etc. It's not really a sensible point to bring up, particularly when the discussion is in relation to what happened post that game, and as a result of, well, the result. It's about getting a word in and taking third hand credit for a team you're tenuously connected to through nationality, yet call yourselves a collective 'we'. So yeah - about you when it doesn't need to be, just like trolling English posters during the game.

[majesticimperialman]

Eddie Jones said Sincklers injury didn’t have a big impact, he couldn’t explain why they didn’t perform though. I think he was being disingenuous though, South Africa were more physical and England struggled to get on the front foot.

Also the much vaunted tactical kicking of England were very well dealt with by South Africa’s back three including also Duane Vermeulen who were superb.

Vermeulen was intense today. Bossed Billy in the head to head at 8. All the power of Vunipola with some extra, and more mobility as well.

On the EJ point, it's clever from him again. Don't give them a headline, don't give ammunition to journalists to start focusing on the areas England lost - also creates doubt in their mind. If EJ doesn't know, then what journalist is confident enough to say 'no, I know what happened even if EJ doesn't - it's this, this, and this'. That said, as with anything like this, there's always a grain of truth, and I think EJ did assume/hope England had the firepower to impose their game on SA. He didn't really prepare to play like Wales did and keep themselves in the game and grind out a narrow win - there wasn't too much game management from England, particularly second half, which suggests he didn't know what went wrong and how, on the day, to adapt and get around the opposition in front of them.

Fiar play to EJ I didn't think he had this resurgence in him - always predicted he'd do very well then dip, before a middling recovery, but didn't think he'd come so close to what would have been a much celebrated and praised WC victory, even if they had won 6-3 today in a slugfest. But not enough in the end, not enough to win.

I think that is a fair comment.

[Guest]

thanks maj. commiserations for the result today. easier to take than 4 years ago, though, surely?

[Taylorman]

Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

Whether they did or not, I suspect in future finals (if we make them) we might not be as much under the radar as this RWC

Well as you know you are never under the radar for us, which doesn’t help you some of the time, but England, admit it or not, either underestimated the Boks, or were not in their league.

I say they we’re complacent after NZ, in a similar way we were after Ireland. Like England, we believed our own press and thought we could carry on with this attack style.

England admitted they spent two years learning how to beat NZ and when your that obsessed and focussed on the one goal, it’s understandable when such a goal is reached, to assume a few things. Some say Eddie ‘also had a plan for SA’ in a way they tried to convince themselves, but quite clearly, they had no idea how to manage them.

Boks ‘played’ what was in front of them, and at World Cup time that’s what you do, and nether NZ, nor England did that.

Boks outsmarted both by not overthinking it all. Eddie and Hansen meanwhile, went with big theories on how to win and both got unstuck by the variations of style they met at knockout time.

Too smart, too strong, Boks truly deserved World champions, and taught the rest how to win this title. Super impressive Biltong.

And, as I’ve said for years, the increasing cultural inclusion into this sport in SA is going to make them stronger and stronger, especially if they can out pack to start with, and Kolbe the opposition as things open up, Boks are going to set whole new standards.

[Scarpia]

Let's hope that the improvement in their rugby will be reflected in an improvement in their manners and attitude. They behaved disgracefully at the presentation ceremony and soured the whole day. I hope that World Rugby or IRB punishes them for bringing the game into disrepute.

[eirebilly]

Well, that was some final. Well done SA and commiserations England.

Have to admit that I was in the majority writing SA off and having England win convincingly. Massively under estimated SA in this final.

[mikey_dragon]

Eddie Jones said Sincklers injury didn’t have a big impact, he couldn’t explain why they didn’t perform though. I think he was being disingenuous though, South Africa were more physical and England struggled to get on the front foot.

Also the much vaunted tactical kicking of England were very well dealt with by South Africa’s back three including also Duane Vermeulen who were superb.

Always thought Vermeulen would be a better captain too.

[majesticimperialman]

Well, that was some final. Well done SA and commiserations England.

Have to admit that I was in the majority writing SA off and having England win convincingly. Massively under estimated SA in this final.

I honestly thought the way England beat the New Zealand, South Africa, would be no problem. But like many other's i was proved wrong.

SA was truly the better team.

[majesticimperialman]

thanks maj. commiserations for the result today. easier to take than 4 years ago, though, surely?

Yes it was. 4 years ago was a big disappointment, and if i am honest still hurts. England being the home nation i mean.

[Guest]

thanks maj. commiserations for the result today. easier to take than 4 years ago, though, surely?

Yes it was. 4 years ago was a big disappointment, and if i am honest still hurts. England being the home nation i mean.

Still plenty of promise in this England team. The Premiership looks stronger than its European counterparts and that will be a good breeding ground for the toughness you now know you need to be successful.

Question marks over a few issues - namely, not being an outstanding captain. Itoje doesn't strike for me as one tbh - although the media seemingly want him to be the English Kolisi. Farrell's ok but I've said the issues there many times. Also need to really find and uncover depth at 9 - England are easily the weakest of the 5 nations in this position. It's probably Wales and France on par with quality and depth (at least for a 6Ns squad) followed by Ireland and then Scotland, with England just behind. There has to be real jeopardy and competition and if they uncovered a world class 9 that would help. Likewise the 15 shirt.

Add those and I think the future is bright and England may well take this hurt and disappointment and turn it in to back to back 6Ns wins again as they did in 2015. Big questions about who the coach is going to be to possibly do that though.

[Taylorman]

Let's hope that the improvement in their rugby will be reflected in an improvement in their manners and attitude. They behaved disgracefully at the presentation ceremony and soured the whole day. I hope that World Rugby or IRB punishes them for bringing the game into disrepute.

Really? Didn’t see that. Did they immediately remove their medals from their neck as some of the England players did disrespectfully? Itoje and Sinckler acting like spoilt brats? And what about English fans boo’ing Garces. Do they get a mention as well? Assuming you’re point at the Boks here?

[tigertattie]

Removing the runners up medals is a complete 50/50m half won’t care, half think it’s disgraceful.

If I had a medal saying I was the second best team at the World Cup I’d be over the moon but then I’m not an elite sportsman who strives each day to be the best and therefore not happy with second best.

The soccer boys do it all the time and in this day of professionalism in rugby we’re at that stage too I guess. 20 years ago you’d never have seen it in rugby, next World Cup will likely see the runners up doing it again.

[Guest]

All about sports psychology. Don't accept anything that denotes you as not being 'winners'.

I'll be honest and say you need to show that on the field first and foremost, and if you'd been on the scoreline England were, it does look disrespectful, even if it's not intended to be that way. Show that you refuse to accept the 'losers' tag during the game - at every moment. Otherwise, when SA grew and grew and England shrank, just accept the medal. Tbh most did I thought? No harm taking it off after they're off the platform tbh. It's when refusing it being put around your neck that is more overtly...disappointing to see.

[Old Man]

Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

Whether they did or not, I suspect in future finals (if we make them) we might not be as much under the radar as this RWC

Well as you know you are never under the radar for us, which doesn’t help you some of the time, but England, admit it or not, either underestimated the Boks, or were not in their league.

I say they we’re complacent after NZ, in a similar way we were after Ireland. Like England, we believed our own press and thought we could carry on with this attack style.

England admitted they spent two years learning how to beat NZ and when your that obsessed and focussed on the one goal, it’s understandable when such a goal is reached, to assume a few things. Some say Eddie ‘also had a plan for SA’ in a way they tried to convince themselves, but quite clearly, they had no idea how to manage them.

Boks ‘played’ what was in front of them, and at World Cup time that’s what you do, and nether NZ, nor England did that.

Boks outsmarted both by not overthinking it all. Eddie and Hansen meanwhile, went with big theories on how to win and both got unstuck by the variations of style they met at knockout time.

Too smart, too strong, Boks truly deserved World champions, and taught the rest how to win this title. Super impressive Biltong.

And, as I’ve said for years, the increasing cultural inclusion into this sport in SA is going to make them stronger and stronger, especially if they can out pack to start with, and Kolbe the opposition as things open up, Boks are going to set whole new standards.

It was a very satisfactory victory, but I would caution against the Boks setting new standards, I think Rassie played it smart and it worked, however now begins the search for a new coach and a goal to become consistent.

I think England has a great team, so does the All .blacks, there might be a bit of a gap to the rest.

My personal opinion is Eddie got a bit over confident, and has learn’t a valuable lesson today. The Bok pack and bench are strong, respect that.

New Zealand will most likely get back on the horse immediately, so there could be a triple threat to fighting to be number one in the next few years.

[Taylorman]

Removing the runners up medals is a complete 50/50m half won’t care, half think it’s disgraceful.

If I had a medal saying I was the second best team at the World Cup I’d be over the moon but then I’m not an elite sportsman who strives each day to be the best and therefore not happy with second best.

The soccer boys do it all the time and in this day of professionalism in rugby we’re at that stage too I guess. 20 years ago you’d never have seen it in rugby, next World Cup will likely see the runners up doing it again.

Removing it immediately in front of the person placing it over your shoulders as Sinckler did is disgraceful, and disrespectful, and has been reported widely as such.

Love the way you try to justify waffle by making up theories, never seen anything like it. Your mind must be in a constant spin of conflict and agreement.

[Taylorman]

Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

Whether they did or not, I suspect in future finals (if we make them) we might not be as much under the radar as this RWC

Well as you know you are never under the radar for us, which doesn’t help you some of the time, but England, admit it or not, either underestimated the Boks, or were not in their league.

I say they we’re complacent after NZ, in a similar way we were after Ireland. Like England, we believed our own press and thought we could carry on with this attack style.

England admitted they spent two years learning how to beat NZ and when your that obsessed and focussed on the one goal, it’s understandable when such a goal is reached, to assume a few things. Some say Eddie ‘also had a plan for SA’ in a way they tried to convince themselves, but quite clearly, they had no idea how to manage them.

Boks ‘played’ what was in front of them, and at World Cup time that’s what you do, and nether NZ, nor England did that.

Boks outsmarted both by not overthinking it all. Eddie and Hansen meanwhile, went with big theories on how to win and both got unstuck by the variations of style they met at knockout time.

Too smart, too strong, Boks truly deserved World champions, and taught the rest how to win this title. Super impressive Biltong.

And, as I’ve said for years, the increasing cultural inclusion into this sport in SA is going to make them stronger and stronger, especially if they can out pack to start with, and Kolbe the opposition as things open up, Boks are going to set whole new standards.

It was a very satisfactory victory, but I would caution against the Boks setting new standards, I think Rassie played it smart and it worked, however now begins the search for a new coach and a goal to become consistent.

I think England has a great team, so does the All .blacks, there might be a bit of a gap to the rest.

My personal opinion is Eddie got a bit over confident, and has learn’t a valuable lesson today. The Bok pack and bench are strong, respect that.

New Zealand will most likely get back on the horse immediately, so there could be a triple threat to fighting to be number one in the next few years.

Yes agree with Eddie, I didn’t get the same pre match feeling of confidence out of the old Cheshire as I did the ABs. It’s almost as though he felt they just needed to turn up. NH sides tend to get thumped a lot by SH sides because of that, all three NH hopefuls of England, Wales and Ireland thrashed in their final exit matches by SH sides.

England’s very good solitary two year in the waiting win was the only NH success this round. Apart from them all beating Oz that is.

[majesticimperialman]

thanks maj. commiserations for the result today. easier to take than 4 years ago, though, surely?

Yes it was. 4 years ago was a big disappointment, and if i am honest still hurts. England being the home nation i mean.

Still plenty of promise in this England team. The Premiership looks stronger than its European counterparts and that will be a good breeding ground for the toughness you now know you need to be successful.

Question marks over a few issues - namely, not being an outstanding captain. Itoje doesn't strike for me as one tbh - although the media seemingly want him to be the English Kolisi. Farrell's ok but I've said the issues there many times. Also need to really find and uncover depth at 9 - England are easily the weakest of the 5 nations in this position. It's probably Wales and France on par with quality and depth (at least for a 6Ns squad) followed by Ireland and then Scotland, with England just behind. There has to be real jeopardy and competition and if they uncovered a world class 9 that would help. Likewise the 15 shirt.

Add those and I think the future is bright and England may well take this hurt and disappointment and turn it in to back to back 6Ns wins again as they did in 2015. Big questions about who the coach is going to be to possibly do that though.

I think EJ is contracted till 2021. So i think he will be in charge. My problem as all ways been no true full back. Daily is a good player but a full back he is not. What ever did Mike Brown do to get dropped?

I think Daily is in at full back for England, a bit like Half penny is for Wales long range kicks at goal.

Going forward England need a proper Full Back, and a better 9. I truly think Ben Young's time is up.

[Guest]

I understand why Mike Brown was dropped from the starting shirt, but much like Ben Smith not playing when it mattered for NZ, sometimes you literally just need solidity, and you really could have done with him in the side today.

That said, did McConnochie, Singleton, Francis etc. allow the training schedule and the lack of ego and sense of focus that allowed them to be so successful up until the final?

EJ got much more right than he got wrong, and ultimately, England lost because of the backs today - Daly rode the bigger challenge, NZ, far better, but again that was due to the pack.

15 is a tough position in this day and age. Not easy to fill. Daly's not the worst option there but you'd say he looks better at 13/14 and might become the ultimate super sub over time.

[TightHEAD]

Let's talk about Ben Young's!

Passes rangeing in height from ankle slappers to 7ft+, plus passes into touch. blooming awful display.

[Taylorman]

Yep, said before he was the weakest link for England. One of the worst out there. Faf made him chuck the ball out twice by reading his options. Hilarious.

[TightHEAD]

Danny Care should have gone

[majesticimperialman]

Danny Care should have gone

I thought Danny Care was injured, that why he did not get selected?

[Guest]

Really don't think Care fit England's style whatsoever. Youngs was at the heart of everything good when England fired over the last 4 years, and was mostly solid even when they were average.

Care was capable of meltdowns - and kicking the ball backwards - and was less consistent. He had ample opportunity to nail the starting shirt, let alone a squad place, and didn't. Same goes or Hartley, Robshaw etc. - he played his part in the two 6Ns wins, it's just that there were no Curry/Underhills or LCDs to take his place.

Robson was a big hope. EJ ultimately paid a price for not capping a 9 12 months ago and repeatedly playing him. We had this discussion during the 6Ns. It worked...until it didn't. DVT aside he had the talent and potential to be an excellent replacement to Youngs but EJ didn't trust him.

England showed no inclination of having a 'go for broke' gameplan that Care would be decent in. Today was the time to use it and they didn't.

[Taylorman]

Oooooh noooo, the other half to the awful tag team. Two of the poorest 9’s in the modern game. Incredible how England have had only the two as options in the last decade. Surely in a country of 50 million plus they can find better 9s than those two in ten years? Not joking.

If you’d have had Smith, Perenara, Webb, faf, jantjes, even Genia, Nick White...any of those the backline would be been served much better. 9 is a big problem for England.

[Guest]

You say that, T, yet they're infinitely better rugby players that you could ever possibly have hoped to have been. You don't seem to get that in amongst the analysis-free gloating...?

[Taylorman]

You say that, T, yet they're infinitely better rugby players that you could ever possibly have hoped to have been. You don't seem to get that in amongst the analysis-free gloating...?

Oh, ok, on that basis how many are qualified here to discuss players? Should the site shut down on that basis, I.e, we all have to be better rugby players than those awe can discuss?

Another theory of yours with the biggest of holes. Resigned, not thought through, epic fail.

[Guest]

No one else is trolling players. That's the point. Skin in the game, pal.

[Taylorman]

geez, Give it up. Anyway, all done. Another Bok title, another SH WCup, 8 from 9 is it? No wonder the NH continue to need SH help.

...The song remains the same.

[Guest]

Sleep deprivation sounds terrifying.

[Cyril]

606v2. Please ban these two permanently before your forum becomes more of a joke.

How many warnings do they need?

[Geen sport voor watjes]

thanks maj. commiserations for the result today. easier to take than 4 years ago, though, surely?

Yes it was. 4 years ago was a big disappointment, and if i am honest still hurts. England being the home nation i mean.

Still plenty of promise in this England team. The Premiership looks stronger than its European counterparts and that will be a good breeding ground for the toughness you now know you need to be successful.

Question marks over a few issues - namely, not being an outstanding captain. Itoje doesn't strike for me as one tbh - although the media seemingly want him to be the English Kolisi. Farrell's ok but I've said the issues there many times. Also need to really find and uncover depth at 9 - England are easily the weakest of the 5 nations in this position. It's probably Wales and France on par with quality and depth (at least for a 6Ns squad) followed by Ireland and then Scotland, with England just behind. There has to be real jeopardy and competition and if they uncovered a world class 9 that would help. Likewise the 15 shirt.

Add those and I think the future is bright and England may well take this hurt and disappointment and turn it in to back to back 6Ns wins again as they did in 2015. Big questions about who the coach is going to be to possibly do that though.

Can you please explain what you mean by the comment regarding Itoje being the English Kolisi?

[Taylorman]

[Guest]

"Feel good" and culturally significant pick more than his ability as a captain. Not saying Kolisi hasn't deserved his captaincy isn't the right choice at all. But there's a clamour for superficial #wokeness as a sign of social and cultural progression in the UK/America and, despite very different cultural dynamics inthe UK than SA, there's a distinct sense Itoje would be a 'welcome' selection as captain by who and 'what' he is as much as his attributes. He was already being called an England captain before he'd had a cap - remember also the clamours for him to be Lions captain in 2017? All a bit premature, all trying to fit him in to something he isn't ready for yet, if ever.

[TightHEAD]

Danny Care should have gone

I thought Danny Care was injured, that why he did not get selected?

He could have had his legs in plastered still be an improvement on Young's!

[TightHEAD]

606v2. Please ban these two permanently before your forum becomes more of a joke.

How many warnings do they need?

+100

[tigertattie]

Removing the runners up medals is a complete 50/50m half won’t care, half think it’s disgraceful.

If I had a medal saying I was the second best team at the World Cup I’d be over the moon but then I’m not an elite sportsman who strives each day to be the best and therefore not happy with second best.

The soccer boys do it all the time and in this day of professionalism in rugby we’re at that stage too I guess. 20 years ago you’d never have seen it in rugby, next World Cup will likely see the runners up doing it again.

Removing it immediately in front of the person placing it over your shoulders as Sinckler did is disgraceful, and disrespectful, and has been reported widely as such.

Love the way you try to justify waffle by making up theories, never seen anything like it. Your mind must be in a constant spin of conflict and agreement.

Spin and conflict?

I prefer to see it as having an open mind and capable of seeing things from both sides. World would be a far better place if people didn’t insist on following down a single track and repeating the same rhetoric over and over and over.........

[Geen sport voor watjes]

In fairness you have just described Farrell. However you appear to be contradicting yourself regarding Kolisi. He either
Deserves to be captain or not. If not why?

[Guest]

No, not at all. I don't know enough about SA club rugby and culture to know whether he 'deserves' it. I don't know either way - I wouldn't say he doesn't deserve it just because he hasn't really stood out with his performances this WC, or doesn't look like the natural leader within the group. He was excellent for several years leading up to getting the captaincy so has this in his credit.

Either way, I'm talking more about the PR side of things - thinking that #wokeness and what's popular on twitter is the most important facet when deciding which people we value and why. Itoje falls in to that area as well with journalists falling over themselves to promote him already - he's a genius, he's a poet, he's special, he's busting stereotypes, he's a black saviour in a white world. It's all a bit...grubby. Just another form of orientalism, but self-labelled activists and allies don't quite get that. Itoje reminds me of AWJ but with more natural ability - lots of penalties, lots of cometptiveness, but needs that maturity on the field to really become a captain. Don't promote him too soon in the hope he'll become a Martin Johnson, because he is definitely not a Martin Johson - he's much more of an AWJ. So just give him time. That would be my assessment.

[Steffan]

606v2. Please ban these two permanently before your forum becomes more of a joke.

How many warnings do they need?

Grass

[mikey_dragon]

In fairness you have just described Farrell. However you appear to be contradicting yourself regarding Kolisi. He either
Deserves to be captain or not. If not why?

Well if you want my opinion... Vermeulen is their best captain. I can’t comment on whether or not Kolisi is a good captain, he seems to be highly rated in his country. But as far as open-sides go, Louw is still their best.

[mikey_dragon]

606v2. Please ban these two permanently before your forum becomes more of a joke.

How many warnings do they need?

Well banning Tman would be over the top.... I got a 12 hour ban for no reason just yesterday though, so who knows what’s going on.

[yappysnap]

Removing the runners up medals is a complete 50/50m half won’t care, half think it’s disgraceful.

If I had a medal saying I was the second best team at the World Cup I’d be over the moon but then I’m not an elite sportsman who strives each day to be the best and therefore not happy with second best.

The soccer boys do it all the time and in this day of professionalism in rugby we’re at that stage too I guess. 20 years ago you’d never have seen it in rugby, next World Cup will likely see the runners up doing it again.

Removing it immediately in front of the person placing it over your shoulders as Sinckler did is disgraceful, and disrespectful, and has been reported widely as such.

Love the way you try to justify waffle by making up theories, never seen anything like it. Your mind must be in a constant spin of conflict and agreement.

Wow you are an angry kiwi mate. Are you the guy that got the three threepeat tattoo? Fits your style.

[Taylorman]

Removing the runners up medals is a complete 50/50m half won’t care, half think it’s disgraceful.

If I had a medal saying I was the second best team at the World Cup I’d be over the moon but then I’m not an elite sportsman who strives each day to be the best and therefore not happy with second best.

The soccer boys do it all the time and in this day of professionalism in rugby we’re at that stage too I guess. 20 years ago you’d never have seen it in rugby, next World Cup will likely see the runners up doing it again.

Removing it immediately in front of the person placing it over your shoulders as Sinckler did is disgraceful, and disrespectful, and has been reported widely as such.

Love the way you try to justify waffle by making up theories, never seen anything like it. Your mind must be in a constant spin of conflict and agreement.

Spin and conflict?

I prefer to see it as having an open mind and capable of seeing things from both sides. World would be a far better place if people didn’t insist on following down a single track and repeating the same rhetoric over and over and over.........

Yep fair, actually posted that to the wrong message, not sure how, apologies. Suns up, off now.

[Geen sport voor watjes]

No, not at all. I don't know enough about SA club rugby and culture to know whether he 'deserves' it. I don't know either way - I wouldn't say he doesn't deserve it just because he hasn't really stood out with his performances this WC, or doesn't look like the natural leader within the group. He was excellent for several years leading up to getting the captaincy so has this in his credit.

Either way, I'm talking more about the PR side of things - thinking that #wokeness and what's popular on twitter is the most important facet when deciding which people we value and why. Itoje falls in to that area as well with journalists falling over themselves to promote him already - he's a genius, he's a poet, he's special, he's busting stereotypes, he's a black saviour in a white world. It's all a bit...grubby. Just another form of orientalism, but self-labelled activists and allies don't quite get that. Itoje reminds me of AWJ but with more natural ability - lots of penalties, lots of cometptiveness, but needs that maturity on the field to really become a captain. Don't promote him too soon in the hope he'll become a Martin Johnson, because he is definitely not a Martin Johson - he's much more of an AWJ. So just give him time. That would be my assessment.

Ok. So that’s a bit clearer. You think he is captain because he is black primarily. I am guessing you didn’t watch the rugby championship over the last couple of years. Also given the game plan the boks have in this wc Kolisi has been effective. How was he against wales. Pretty good. How did the much vaunted English flankers do today? Your comment on not knowing South African club rugby indicates where your thinking is influenced.

So what would be wrong with Itoje being captain? He was probably the least ineffective English player today and has been fairly totemic for England over the last couple of years.

[Guest]

And I'm guessing you didn't even read my comment - or you did, and just filled in the gaps with what you wanted to hear me say for yourself, even if they weren't there to be filled.

[Geen sport voor watjes]

No. You were pretty clear

[RiscaGame]

606v2. Please ban these two permanently before your forum becomes more of a joke.

How many warnings do they need?

Agree totally. But then Hersh has 1 million final warnings too and The Saint is also allowed back with freebies. Then again, you’re a converted wum off the old 606, who broke the rules by creating another account, so I guess you can’t exactly preach.

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