RWC Final 2019 - Match Thread - ENGLAND v SOUTH AFRICA - Spill Over/Match Reaction Thread

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

other one's getting full

[Guest]

No. You were pretty clear

No, no. Youre confused. Thing is, I know my mind, I know what I mean, and I know what I say. 'Gotcha' culture has infected every facet of public discourse - it's very sad, and very deliberate. Listen to Obama, he knows what he's talking about. The perpetually offended solve and build literally nothing. Seems that's what you were hoping for. Sorry to disappoint.

[Geen sport voor watjes]

Only you know whats in your mind and I am not of the "gotcha" generation however it either say it like you think or stop your mealy mouthed commentary. You are insinuating something that either way leaves a bad taste to be honest.

[Rugby Fan]

Good news: I'm awake. Bad news: I have a hangover, and we still lost.

Haven't had a chance to read the reactions, but every England supporter I met last night was upset with how poorly we played. So many off-target passes... I'm sure I'll feel badly for the players too in time but I'm preoccupied with wallowing in my own disappointment at the moment.

Best moment last night was in a restaurant back in Tokyo after the match. Three separate tables, one with French, one Irish, and one English, had a sing-off. That helped raise some low spirits.

[TightHEAD]

Was having flashbacks all night, why did Eddie not bring on Spencer in the 2nd half? Young's was having a shocker, his passing was putting the first receiver under just as much pressure as the SA defence?

[majesticimperialman]

I thought that as well. Young's is a on off player....one game he could be well on is game making darting runs, etc etc. other times he is pants....maybe it is time to move on and find a replacement 9 for the future of England.,,,But who would that be?

[Rugby Fan]

We'll be wondering for a long time whether Jones should have started a different XV, or even selected a different 23 from the squad available. Or whether Harry Williams could have helped that scrum any better than Dan Cole.

Jones must have been tempted to put Ford back on the bench but you can understand why he decided to bet on the momentum of last week.

[Collapse2005]

Good news: I'm awake. Bad news: I have a hangover, and we still lost.

Haven't had a chance to read the reactions, but every England supporter I met last night was upset with how poorly we played. So many off-target passes... I'm sure I'll feel badly for the players too in time but I'm preoccupied with wallowing in my own disappointment at the moment.

Best moment last night was in a restaurant back in Tokyo after the match. Three separate tables, one with French, one Irish, and one English, had a sing-off. That helped raise some low spirits.

Nice to hear, thats what its all about.

[The Great Aukster]

We'll be wondering for a long time whether Jones should have started a different XV, or even selected a different 23 from the squad available. Or whether Harry Williams could have helped that scrum any better than Dan Cole.

Jones must have been tempted to put Ford back on the bench but you can understand why he decided to bet on the momentum of last week.

The only way South Africa were going to win was through set-piece dominance, and they had the bench split to support that. Maybe Eddie didn't think he had the forwards to match that game but it was obvious his pack would be physically tested, so his biggest mistake was not matching the 6/2 split on the bench. Of course that may have made little difference as Sinckler went off so early and effectively gave Erasmus yet another forward advantage.

[protea438]

Rassie must change his name to Keyser Söze , he fooled a lot of people.

I'm not sure he dd - people just didn't respect the absolute power in his team. Even on here, thinking the pack was atually 'to size' on the stats etc. That SA pack is massive and full of brawn, and it showed. Rugby is simple. Power is a significant component of the game and SA had more than England.

Well, we did, that’s how we beat them in pool play. If people aren’t ‘respecting’ South Africa in a World Cup final...then they’re idiots.

Whether they did or not, I suspect in future finals (if we make them) we might not be as much under the radar as this RWC

Well as you know you are never under the radar for us, which doesn’t help you some of the time, but England, admit it or not, either underestimated the Boks, or were not in their league.

I say they we’re complacent after NZ, in a similar way we were after Ireland. Like England, we believed our own press and thought we could carry on with this attack style.

England admitted they spent two years learning how to beat NZ and when your that obsessed and focussed on the one goal, it’s understandable when such a goal is reached, to assume a few things. Some say Eddie ‘also had a plan for SA’ in a way they tried to convince themselves, but quite clearly, they had no idea how to manage them.

Boks ‘played’ what was in front of them, and at World Cup time that’s what you do, and nether NZ, nor England did that.

Boks outsmarted both by not overthinking it all. Eddie and Hansen meanwhile, went with big theories on how to win and both got unstuck by the variations of style they met at knockout time.

Too smart, too strong, Boks truly deserved World champions, and taught the rest how to win this title. Super impressive Biltong.

And, as I’ve said for years, the increasing cultural inclusion into this sport in SA is going to make them stronger and stronger, especially if they can out pack to start with, and Kolbe the opposition as things open up, Boks are going to set whole new standards.

I have never forgotten this:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2011/mar/22/england-grand-slam-ad

[Old Man]

We'll be wondering for a long time whether Jones should have started a different XV, or even selected a different 23 from the squad available. Or whether Harry Williams could have helped that scrum any better than Dan Cole.

Jones must have been tempted to put Ford back on the bench but you can understand why he decided to bet on the momentum of last week.

The only way South Africa were going to win was through set-piece dominance, and they had the bench split to support that. Maybe Eddie didn't think he had the forwards to match that game but it was obvious his pack would be physically tested, so his biggest mistake was not matching the 6/2 split on the bench. Of course that may have made little difference as Sinckler went off so early and effectively gave Erasmus yet another forward advantage.

You forget SA lost two players early as well, Mbonambi and de Jager

[The Great Aukster]

We'll be wondering for a long time whether Jones should have started a different XV, or even selected a different 23 from the squad available. Or whether Harry Williams could have helped that scrum any better than Dan Cole.

Jones must have been tempted to put Ford back on the bench but you can understand why he decided to bet on the momentum of last week.

The only way South Africa were going to win was through set-piece dominance, and they had the bench split to support that. Maybe Eddie didn't think he had the forwards to match that game but it was obvious his pack would be physically tested, so his biggest mistake was not matching the 6/2 split on the bench. Of course that may have made little difference as Sinckler went off so early and effectively gave Erasmus yet another forward advantage.

You forget SA lost two players early as well, Mbonambi and de Jager

No didn't forget, they both played more than a quarter. Vunipola and Cole facing Mbonambi (and de Jager) for half of the first half and then fresh legs for the remainder undoubtedly took it's toll. Mako looked shattered when he came off despite it being shortly after half time.

[mikey_dragon]

No need to be all defensive guys. It’s done, you won. SA were worthy winners, well worthy. It doesn’t matter if anyone thinks they’re unworthy because the trophy will say South Africa 2019 next week, next year, forever.

[SecretFly]

Okay, so I'll say this.  Only really noticed this during the final...and only saw the first half (had to go work before the second half began).  Now you might argue that they are game faces, no-nonsense in-the-zone attitudes with expressions to match.  I can get that.  Sometimes it's overdone though and I smirk to myself, 'is this a movie or a game?'

But a good few of the England forwards..... so dead eyed, heavy lidded, slow blinking.... like..... well, gotta be said, the gazes of zombies at times.  Like I said above, sometimes that can be game faces, street battle personas etc..but nope, I noticed it so much yesterday before the game and in the early stages of the game - this dark, slow blinking stuff.... are they on a lot of pain medication or something, getting them through to the final they all dreamed about?

Just seemed more than an act.... a few of them seemed dazed, not quite with it - and I'm not talking about their reactions to his SA were playing.

[Scarpia]

Let's hope that the improvement in their rugby will be reflected in an improvement in their manners and attitude. They behaved disgracefully at the presentation ceremony and soured the whole day. I hope that World Rugby or IRB punishes them for bringing the game into disrepute.

Really? Didn’t see that. Did they immediately remove their medals from their neck as some of the England players did disrespectfully? Itoje and Sinckler acting like spoilt brats? And what about English fans boo’ing Garces. Do they get a mention as well? Assuming you’re point at the Boks here?

I was complaining about England not SA. I was responding a post that suggested that this young England team would improve a lot. I thought I'd quoted the original post but it seems not. In fact I cannot even find it now. Their attitude to their silver medals was insulting to the competition and to the members of other teams who'd have loved to reach the final and be proud of winning silver. This,"We're so good that only gold will do" attitude explains the animosity towards them. Attitude and behavioural standards are set by the captain and coach - so perhaps their boorish behaviour was no surprise after all. Warren Gatland and Alun Wyn Jones would never allow such childish petulance.

[protea438]

Let's hope that the improvement in their rugby will be reflected in an improvement in their manners and attitude. They behaved disgracefully at the presentation ceremony and soured the whole day. I hope that World Rugby or IRB punishes them for bringing the game into disrepute.

Really? Didn’t see that. Did they immediately remove their medals from their neck as some of the England players did disrespectfully? Itoje and Sinckler acting like spoilt brats? And what about English fans boo’ing Garces. Do they get a mention as well? Assuming you’re point at the Boks here?

I was complaining about England not SA. I was responding a post that suggested that this young England team would improve a lot. I thought I'd quoted the original post but it seems not. In fact I cannot even find it now. Their attitude to their silver medals was insulting to the competition and to the members of other teams who'd have loved to reach the final and be proud of winning silver. This,"We're so good that only gold will do" attitude explains the animosity towards them. Attitude and behavioural standards are set by the captain and coach - so perhaps their boorish behaviour was no surprise after all. Warren Gatland and Alun Wyn Jones would never allow such childish petulance.

At the end of the day there was a lot of way overestimating and a lot of way underestimating. You decide which applies to which team

[SecretFly]

At the end of the day there was a lot of way overestimating and a lot of way underestimating. You decide which applies to which team

I said ih, I said ih! Said too many people were underestimating just how good SA were and that it WAS demonstrated through the WC. But people chose to be blind...
..... I said so....but Eddie dropped the phone on me, the ratty *%^#£$er!

[No 7&1/2]

Not sure you can discipline people for removing a medal.

[SecretFly]

Youth coaches.... for schools and stuff... often have stories about kiddies mimicking the over-acted falls of their favourite football superstars. They talk about being witness to how early the habit of 'milking' starts.

So be so with these adult players. They grow up watching their heros from other sports walk up a podium, allow a medal to be placed around their necks then immediately removing it. Heros are heros and are mimicked.

[No 7&1/2]

Be polite accept the presentation. Remove the medal. Absolutely fine.

[Scarpia]

Be polite accept the presentation. Remove the medal. Absolutely fine.

Itoje refused to put the medal on.

[No 7&1/2]

Good for him.

[whatahitson]

Well what can you say? Hard result for England. I thought we would beat anyone after that game against the allblacks but South Africa were up for the fight. You never know if Kyle Sinckler had been in the scrum what might have happened but they were deserving winners so well done South Africa.

[Scarpia]

Good for him.

No. Childish, petulant,insulting bad manners

[No 7&1/2]

No just obviously disappointed and not wanting to celebrate 1st of the losers. Theres going to be no repercussions. And rightly so.

[Rugby Fan]

Good for him.

No. Childish, petulant,insulting bad manners

Who on earth does it insult? It's not even at the level of getting a present, and then asking for the receipt.

[Scarpia]

Good for him.

No. Childish, petulant,insulting bad manners

Who on earth does it insult? It's not even at the level of getting a present, and then asking for the receipt.

Insulting to the hosts, the organisers but in particular the hundreds of their fellow competitors who would have so desperately wanted to make the final. Their actions were in sharp contrast to the All Blacks who accepted and wore their bronze medals with polite dignity.

[Rugby Fan]

Good for him.

No. Childish, petulant,insulting bad manners

Who on earth does it insult? It's not even at the level of getting a present, and then asking for the receipt.

Insulting to the hosts, the organisers but in particular the hundreds of their fellow competitors who would have so desperately wanted to make the final. Their actions were in sharp contrast to the All Blacks who accepted and wore their bronze medals with polite dignity.

In what way insulting? Nothing in the Japanese coverage suggests anyone here was insulted. How many players at the World Cup have declared themselves insulted by anything done by an England player? Were other losing finalists of previous World Cups also insulting everyone when they took off their silver medals?

[Scarpia]

Good for him.

No. Childish, petulant,insulting bad manners

Who on earth does it insult? It's not even at the level of getting a present, and then asking for the receipt.

Insulting to the hosts, the organisers but in particular the hundreds of their fellow competitors who would have so desperately wanted to make the final. Their actions were in sharp contrast to the All Blacks who accepted and wore their bronze medals with polite dignity.

In what way insulting? Nothing in the Japanese coverage suggests anyone here was insulted. How many players at the World Cup have declared themselves insulted by anything done by an England player? Were other losing finalists of previous World Cups also insulting everyone when they took off their silver medals?

The Japanese are far too polite to voice their displeasure. "Insulting" in my post is an active verb not passive. Insulting behaviour does not have to actually upset anyone to be insulting behaviour.

[quinsforever]

I was there.

Gutted about the result.There's only 2 reasons we lost that - too many knockons, and a scrum that was a reverse penalty machine.

sinckler going off at minute 3, and not having launchbury or kruis starting, tell you everything you need to know about why our scrum backfired.

but the handling errors, and uncharacteristic mistakes, were disappointing, as they gifted a constant 3-6 point lead to SA.

having said that, i thought SA were excellent, with their more limited gameplan. Met loads of Saffers out there, and they were all sure England were heavy favourites. Maybe only NZ in recent years are comfortable wearing the favourites tag without it negatively impacting performance?

anyway, great trip. SA played great. and we were 1 self-inflicted prop knockout, and 6 or 7 uncharacteristic handling errors, from winning another world cup

oh well

bugger

[The Great Aukster]

Devaluing the 'honour' of finishing second is anathema in sport. For every winner there has to be a loser, and accepting defeat or any token of it is something that 'winners' might not like but rejecting the silver medals was unquestionably graceless. The point of sport is to celebrate success certainly but also acknowledge the better team and learn from defeat. New Zealand accepted their bronze medals as Wales would have done if their result had been different.
World Rugby issued a fine to England for not standing in the right place for the haka, so presumably they should fine England again for slapping thier silver medal back in their face?

[milkyboy]

Good for him.

No. Childish, petulant,insulting bad manners

Who on earth does it insult? It's not even at the level of getting a present, and then asking for the receipt.

Insulting to the hosts, the organisers but in particular the hundreds of their fellow competitors who would have so desperately wanted to make the final. Their actions were in sharp contrast to the All Blacks who accepted and wore their bronze medals with polite dignity.

Not really a direct comparison is it? The all blacks had a week to get over their loss and they’d just won their game. Itoje should have accepted the medal, but frankly when you’ve just lost the biggest match of your career the disappointment is understandable, so I imagine most would cut him some slack.

I’m sure an all-round nice guy like Alun Wyn would have behaved better... but we’re never going to get the chance to find out are we?

[Taylorman]

The all blacks had a week to get over their loss and they’d just won their game.

Yeah thats was a point well made, Juxtaposing the two images of the AB's post a 3rd win a week later alongside an English team having just lost a final was ridiculous. An insult to England in that regard.

[Guest]

Would Launchbury or Kruis starting have made a big difference? Having seen what the Boks did to Wales last week, there was no excuse to not pick a powerful scrum - did he get it wrong by sticking with the same XV where he's twisted each time, to much success, in this tournament? Did EJ get cold feet, or would the locks have made minimal difference?

[Taylorman]

Mentioned earlier Kolbe had a very similar step to Milner skudder and Shane Wlilliams and thought Kolbes try was similar to one I'd seen in the 2015 tournament:

Kolbe's:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT9520fCZLI


NMS's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9YRA-003Gs

Different build up but very similar in the way the key defender was beaten...

[yappysnap]

Would Launchbury or Kruis starting have made a big difference? Having seen what the Boks did to Wales last week, there was no excuse to not pick a powerful scrum - did he get it wrong by sticking with the same XV where he's twisted each time, to much success, in this tournament? Did EJ get cold feet, or would the locks have made minimal difference?

I'd say the locks would have made minimal difference, but that may have been enough. After the initial 20 min onslaught there were periods in that second quarter when we looked like we could come right back into the game and if not for some brilliant defense score a try to take the lead. It was very close until just before half time when SA finally went 6 points clear and you felt them raise their games as England began to run out of ideas.

Our other mistake was kicking at the posts, two or three times we opted to kick the pen and close the lead, which then gave the ball back to SA and almost immediately lead to a scrum and SA pen to then extend that lead. We ended up playing the gameplan SA wanted, rather then sticking to ours, backing ourselves and scoring tries. We were never going to beat SA with 3 pointers, that became apparent to everyone watching, but unfortunately not to Farrell (the only person who mattered).

[TightHEAD]

I see the usual hatred towards England is still going strong, it's a medal big deal, my grandfather never took his WW2 Medals out of the box.

[milkyboy]

Devaluing the 'honour' of finishing second is anathema in sport. For every winner there has to be a loser, and accepting defeat or any token of it is something that 'winners' might not like but rejecting the silver medals was unquestionably graceless. The point of sport is to celebrate success certainly but also acknowledge the better team and learn from defeat. New Zealand accepted their bronze medals as Wales would have done if their result had been different.
World Rugby issued a fine to England for not standing in the right place for the haka, so presumably they should fine England again for slapping thier silver medal back in their face?

Reality is leading sportsmen are leading sportsmen because they are driven by success. Whether the motivation is a huge kick from winning or a pathological hatred of losing. It’s also dictated by objectives and expectations. If your goal is to qualify for a world championship athletics 110 m hurdles final and you sneak a bronze because a few guys fall over, you are ecstatic collecting a medal. If you were the favourite, hit the final hurdle hard and ended up with silver, you’re gutted collecting your medal.

You have to learn to put on a public face.... but that’s all it is. For me good grace is about congratulating the winners for their success and not blaming the ref and your own shortcomings. But behind whatever mask they are putting on, the losers are always focusing on where they went wrong... and England massively fluffed their lines. I agree Itoje should have handled the loss with better grace publicly, but what he was feeling is what they were all feeling, and some react differently to others.

Feels like there’s a bit of over-reaction to an emotional response of a dejected sportsman in the immediate aftermath of a crushing defeat. At least he gives a sh*t. And gives the opportunity for people to remind us why everyone hates the English... like we need reminding!

[milkyboy]

Our other mistake was kicking at the posts, two or three times we opted to kick the pen and close the lead, which then gave the ball back to SA and almost immediately lead to a scrum and SA pen to then extend that lead. We ended up playing the gameplan SA wanted, rather then sticking to ours, backing ourselves and scoring tries. We were never going to beat SA with 3 pointers, that became apparent to everyone watching, but unfortunately not to Farrell (the only person who mattered).

I understand the building pressure and game plan point but i think it’s about game and scoreboard management. I think there’s an element of hindsight to this. If he’d kicked for the corner and we’d messed up the line out people would be shaking their heads. There’d been a mini-momentum shift. If Farrell kicks the points its back to a three point game. Misses and we get the ball back - in theory. You can’t build a game plan around not taking three points because we’ll give a penalty away at the restart. The fact that we messed up restart’s, dropped balls, gave penalties away all day long is hard to legislate for in any game plan. We can’t kick to touch because of their line out and rolling maul, we can’t have scrums because it’s a penalty every time, we can’t take penalties because they’re winning the restart! It limits your options a bit.

[Soul Requiem]

Well done to South Africa, they did what they need to win but it was no tactical masterclass.

England however well and truly bottled the final though and it's become a trend under Jones that a top class performance is followed by a turgid one against a lesser opponent, the amount of handling errors was insane for a team that should have been winning that game. In hindsight the team selection was wrong and watching the game it was clear that Kruis and Marler needed to be on from the start, screamed of not wanting to change things and be seen to be worried about the opposition.

[Old Man]

Well done to South Africa, they did what they need to win but it was no tactical masterclass.

England however well and truly bottled the final though and it's become a trend under Jones that a top class performance is followed by a turgid one against a lesser opponent, the amount of handling errors was insane for a team that should have been winning that game. In hindsight the team selection was wrong and watching the game it was clear that Kruis and Marler needed to be on from the start, screamed of not wanting to change things and be seen to be worried about the opposition.

I think they did a bit more than just what needed to be done.

The set piece was very strong, the contact ares South Africa seldom gave an 8nch, there were periods where England would win a line out, then go onto the attack and 12+ phases later they still haven’t made a yard.

The wild passes that were thrown was all about pressure.

South Africa was suffocating England with defence.

Then by the last quarter scored two beauties of tries, almost could have gotten a third.

[No 7&1/2]

Pressure of the game and bad decision making.

[Pal Joey]

Definitely was a Bowie-Mercury under pressure signature theme for the Final. A bit of Bad Sneakers too...

[Scottrf]

Very disappointing, didn’t expect such a poor performance. South Africa were good, played to their strengths.

England didn’t impose themselves anywhere. None of the turnover success we had against NZ. Losing collisions. No rush defence pressure, allowing SA to run the ball when normally they’d be shut down and kick for territory. Those who called the set piece dominance were correct.

Execution just really poor. Handling awful, and not only under pressure. When your scrum is being decimated you can’t drop the ball so much, and need to be smarter in reducing the risky offloads.

Refereeing of the scrum was poor in my opinion. FDK was allowed to delay the feed into a stable scrum every time. Pushing before the feed to the point of SA being dominant. As George said, you can’t have a scrum penalty before the feed (except for bind). Basic refereeing. The scrum shouldn’t have been allowed such prominence.

Kicking for posts every time seems a mistake. We needed to play some territory and give ourselves the chance of a try. We were losing the three point game.

Congrats to South Africa, a very dominant win in the end.

[Collapse2005]

Was surprised that England didnt use blocking runners as much for SAs box kicks.

[Duty281]

Kicking for posts every time seems a mistake. We needed to play some territory and give ourselves the chance of a try. We were losing the three point game.

Admittedly in hindsight, I think going for three when 9-15 down (a kick Farrell would miss) was a poor call and that England should have kicked for touch in the South African 22 and exerted some much-needed pressure on their defence.

Aside from the 25 phases in the first half, I can't recall another time England got into the South African 22.

[Collapse2005]

Its hard to raise your gane another level or even match the intensity of the previous game v NZ.

[Soul Requiem]

Easy to say it was a poor call after he missed but seemed like the right call at the time and with Marler on England now had dominance in the scrum, if only he'd started the match.

[Afro]

Easy to say it was a poor call after he missed but seemed like the right call at the time and with Marler on England now had dominance in the scrum, if only he'd started the match.

Agree with this. Absolutely the right decision at the time. We had only just scored another 3 points minutes earlier, and had suddenly won a penalty at a scrum when we had been hammered up to that point.

Going from 9 points down to only 3 in quick time, and the penalty from a scrum, would have built further momentum and could have psychologically hit SA. As it was, he missed and a few plays later SA kicked another penalty and it was back to 9 points difference

[Soul Requiem]

There were two decisions that in isolation aren't wrong but combined make no sense; South Africa won a penalty for holding on despite Vermuelen turning the ball over while South Africa also got the put in at a scrum despite Etzebeth holding on when Itoje was trying to turn the ball over?

[SecretFly]

I think it was a masterclass of coaching from the SA side, not only in the game they practically played to keep tapping the points from forward pressure...but in the more subtle psychological battle they played with England.

Kicking points wasn't actually or conventionally playing it 'safe' against this England side.  Everytime you scored 3, against this England outfit that was running so high on confidence all year and through the WC pools, they would have the belief that they'd score 7 down your end eventually to nullify the 3.

So you might argue that in those early days, SA were being dangerously cautious in taking their 3s.  But then I think that was part of the plan....to keep England in relative patient mode.... 'our time will come.  Our purple patch will arrive and when it does, we'll eat up these 3 pointer advantages.'

Don't get me wrong...from the off England knew they were in a game and that the physicality of SA was a real and present threat but still I think SA were lulling England into a relative zone of patience.  And whilst there, their 80 minutes to win a WC were ticking away minute, by minute by minute.

I think SA really played on England's confidence coming into the game.  Their 3 point taps kept suggesting to England that time was on their side.

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