Refreshed side

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

In terms of coaching? McCall and Sanderson seems excellent as the obvious options and they consistently raise players performance.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Isiekwe is just a bit average for me at the moment. Clearly has the physical attributes but doesn't really.use them well enough. As mentioned still very young so may come on leaps and bounds.

Very much like Will Witty - huge strong lock with scary pace...but doesnt use his weight enough. Maybe Exeter can teach him.

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Always good to weaken a rival anyway. Englands scrum is already strong but the main points for anyone new coming in will be to identify the next guy after sinckler and that possibly lines up a youngster too. Cant help but feel they'll be pointing out the difference a strong scrummaging lock made.

The most overlooked part of a scrum....people think its just the front row.

But i remember people saying that when Simon Shaw was in the scrum it was like having an extra man. Im sure Johno etc was the same.

I dont think we have any monsters in that area at the moment. Kruis seems to be the one they feel is the best scrummaging lock...

Itoje's srummaging was a factor in him settling at lock rather than blindside. He's been viewed as one of the best scrummaging locks available by a lot of coaches now. Hatley for England, Rowntree for the Lions and a Sarries scrum that consistently does well for itself despite Mako and Koch not being considered the strongest scrummagers around.

I thought they rated Kruis as a much stronger scrummager versus Itoje, and certainly it was noticeable how much we improved on teh TH side when he came on and started pushing behind Cole.

Early in his tenure Jones mentioned Kruis and Itoje being his strongest scrummaging locks. Hence we had the strange situation of Itoje wearing 6 but packing down in the row with Lawes on the flank.

I have heard that one of the reasons that Kruis started the first Lions test ahead of Itoje was due to him being so good in the scrum though to be fair.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Isiekwe is just a bit average for me at the moment. Clearly has the physical attributes but doesn't really.use them well enough. As mentioned still very young so may come on leaps and bounds.

Very much like Will Witty - huge strong lock with scary pace...but doesnt use his weight enough. Maybe Exeter can teach him.

I know little about Witty but I disagree on Isiekwe. I think he's a brilliant young player. He doesn't do as much in terms of jackling at the breakdown as some locks but his tight work is excellent.

I certainly wouldn't say that he can't throw his weight around either. It seems he's Sarries first choice blindside currently and they aren't a side known for lacking physicality!

If Isiekwe really is 21 then all you should see is growth potential, not limitations, at this stage.

A quick google search can confirm it's no lie hes 21. Bit strange to focus only on potential and not limitations when talking about choices for the senior international side though. Everyone has limitations and they need to be taken into consideration when balancing a side and trying to introduce players in such a way to help then integrate successfully while strengthening the team (with a short and long term view).

Nothing strange about it.

Ah well. Ok.

With most games having 2 to 3 times more line outs than scums, you can understand why most sides opt for a blend of skills. You need to be able to do both like Kruis. However, Kruis is pretty meh outside of it by the standards of Itoje and Lawes

Kruis is excellent in defence but doesn't offer the same as Lawes in attack. That part of Lawes game has come on a long way under Jones and Borthwick.

It's easy to forget how good Launchbury is going forward as well. We've seen less of him recently but he is excellent at off loading and as a support runner. He's stronger at the breakdown than Kruis and Lawes as well.

I fear that Lawes biggest obstacle will be injuries catching up with him. He's had his far share and often looks like he's held together by physio tape. Given physicality is a huge part of his game I do wonder when the build up of injuries will take their toll.

Kruis is ok in defence, the other three are streets ahead of him in that regard.

If Launchbury lost some weight he'd be an interesting option but as it is he's one of the first to look sluggish the moment England struggle. It's where Lawes and Itoje shine, and Kruis gets in ahead of him on set piece ability. Not sure England have the complete lock, which makes the 4 they do have useful to pick 'horses for courses' style, but for some reason EJ lost his nerve against the Boks.

I really rate Kruis is defence. Particularly in the aggressive rush that Sarries and England often employ. He hits very hard and rarely misses. In the run in of last season I thought he was outstanding in that regard for Sarries.

Launchbury is great in the chop tackle around the fringes and strong over the ball. He's also a good cover defender. It seems a long time ago but he did once cover blindside a fair bit and has a turn of pace.

Lawes is fantastic in the tackle but probably offers the least at the breakdown.

Itoje has a huge work rate in both but does give away more penalties by virtue of contesting more breakdowns.

miaow wrote:If Launchbury lost some weight he'd be an interesting option but as it is he's one of the first to look sluggish the moment England struggle. It's where Lawes and Itoje shine, and Kruis gets in ahead of him on set piece ability. Not sure England have the complete lock, which makes the 4 they do have useful to pick 'horses for courses' style, but for some reason EJ lost his nerve against the Boks.

The biggest take away from the final in terms of horses for courses may well be Marler and Vunipola being viewed as more interchangeable. Mako was clearly first choice despite being out injured for a fair while. Against the South Africa tactic of having two world class tight fives in their 23 we may well have profited more from Marler starting and Mako coming on at 50 minutes.

I think Mako is a brilliant loose head. One of the very best in the world. South Africa targeted him very successfully at the scrum though.

Sinckler going off so early of course didn't help the front row as a unit though.

Definitely. I've been banging the Marler drum for god knows how long. I still believe they're on par, and Mako - like Billy - is the beneficiary of an overly hype-obsessed media. A bit like Hibbard with Wales, because they're identifiable and do good highlight reel stuff, they're lionised. Marler's probably right at the tail end of his career now but he was one of the best props in the world for me, either side of the scrum, for a while. Not sure how much work you'll get out of him now though. Think that was his Indian Summer. Seems like he relies on his emotions and mentality to 'get up' for England, and perhaps he doesn't want to go again on the basis of why he retired first time around.

Every team benefits from the ability to chop and change. Wales clearly got too rigid during the 6Ns and then warm ups - relied too heavily on our centres, evn when both were injured. Ireland clearly relied on over the hill players and were too rigid with their tactics. NZ with Barrett/DMac and Read. England actually seem to be on of the better teams at rotating, outside maybe captain/leadership. Just think Launchbuy probably needs to lose a bit of flab to be more effective as a test player.

Marler is 29 so has a few years left as a prop. Seems ridiculous to think he's younger than Tipuric and O'Mahony for instance but he somehow is. Marler just broke through early and improved his scrummaging a lot under Rowntree so became a mainstay pretty fast. Corbisiero retiring due to injury left a vacancy as well.

I'd guess that Jones made concessions to convince Marler to be involved again. When the typhoon hit and the final pool game was cancelled several England players commented on how odd it felt travelling away from where their families were staying to the training base they used for that week. So I'd guess they had more time with their families than when Jones first took over.

£25k a match probably helps concentrate the mind as well...

I'd say it's less about age, and more about miles in the tank...and in the case of Marler, in the head and heart. If he retired on the basis of family balance then I think you have to take that at face value. He wasn't a big fan of holding tackle bags for Mako in NZ, so not sure he'll be targeting the Lions tour either. Have to wait and see though. In theory he still has a lot to offer.

Marler transformed his game. In the age groups he was an insane ball carrying prop....but he developed himself in to a beast of a prop, with little carrying.

I wonder if he will be in retirement again for the 6n.

From seeing Marler interviewed it would seem his wife was against his retirement in the first place and was a major part of him deciding to return, not sure how easy it is however to get up for the 6Ns after losing a world cup final.

Depends on your mindset as an individual. I think the majority will want to put it right. A few will want to prove they are not complete bottle jobs. And then the point of the thread who comes in to bring that new impetus. For me marler is the better prop out of him and vunipola however Genge is going to be massive for us.

I think he will make himself available. The circumstances of his retirement where the culmination of a series of bad times. Firstly his leg break setting him back, an England training spat with Haskell, then getting himself suspended for the start of the 2018 6 nations (think he had another that year too) and demoted by Jones as a result coupled with making inflammatory statements that led to an online hate campaign. Its pretty easy to see how the pressure mounted on him and he could easily have reached a point where he felt it was too much and affecting his family life after a long summer away and no respite in sight with thw world cup year looming.
Since the return form the world cup hes been a lot more relaxed. His interviews are generally just him mucking about and having fun, and I don't see that he was overly upset by being second choice behind Vunipola more just glad to be there. He's pretty much always been behind Vunipola under Jones. 
When he made himself available for the world cup he stated he was in a different headspace, and I think thats quite evident from his on and off field behaviour. He seems to have lessened the pressure on himself a bit and is doing less to attract negativity. Hes young enough to be around for a Lions tour and another shot at the world cup and has plenty of unfinished business. England would certainly want him in the squad.

Soul Requiem wrote:not sure how easy it is however to get up for the 6Ns after losing a world cup final.

I'd expect a lot easier than getting up for one when you went out at home in the group stages, and England got their grand slam that time.

Soul Requiem wrote:From seeing Marler interviewed it would seem his wife was against his retirement in the first place and was a major part of him deciding to return, not sure how easy it is however to get up for the 6Ns after losing a world cup final.

i would think its pretty easy. The WC is done with and over. We lost.

We should be looking to smash a grand slam in the 6n...and that should motivate them all.

They need to get rid of this tag now, that we always lose the key games...and cant see things through.

king_carlos wrote:Kruis is excellent in defence but doesn't offer the same as Lawes in attack. That part of Lawes game has come on a long way under Jones and Borthwick.

It's easy to forget how good Launchbury is going forward as well. We've seen less of him recently but he is excellent at off loading and as a support runner. He's stronger at the breakdown than Kruis and Lawes as well.

I fear that Lawes biggest obstacle will be injuries catching up with him. He's had his far share and often looks like he's held together by physio tape. Given physicality is a huge part of his game I do wonder when the build up of injuries will take their toll.

Just wanted to respond to this with what I believe is one of the best offloads I've ever seen https://www.facebook.com/OfficialEnglandRugby/videos/10155595972504825/ 

Not only does big Jo suck in the remaining defenders, but he goes to ground and then gets away the deft little offload. If this was Retallick or Etzebeth, we wouldn't hear the end of it. Launchbury is sheer class. We are blessed that we have 4 outstanding locks.

So aside from Itoje, Isiekwe, Kpoku...are there any outstanding locks coming through?

Im always impressed by the giraffe at Exeter...Johnny Hill.

In the centres Ollie Lawrence is gathering some attention. Thats going to be some battle for the 13 spot.

Marchant
Manu
Joseph - whos sheer class when fit and on form
Lawrence...young outsider?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So aside from Itoje, Isiekwe, Kpoku...are there any outstanding locks coming through?

Im always impressed by the giraffe at Exeter...Johnny Hill.

In the centres Ollie Lawrence is gathering some attention. Thats going to be some battle for the 13 spot.

Marchant
Manu
Joseph - whos sheer class when fit and on form
Lawrence...young outsider?

Moon at Saints is starting to come through, 2.01 and 123kg and pretty mobile, 23 years old.
Dave Ribbans, has always looked the part, same sort of size 2.02m and 121kg and is only 24.

Moon looks fantastic. I was really impressed with him in the midlands derby and he's getting a lot of game time now.

Ribbans has looked excellent for a few seasons now, but he's South African by birth so wondering whether he holds ambitions to play for the Boks. 

There's always Stooke and Ewels at Bath as well.

Highly unlikely we will see any of those feature in 6 nations squads though, although I reckon Isekiwe might get in the training pool. England already have a depth of talent as core squad members, its just not a problem area even if theres debate about what the starting pair should be. The summer will see opportunities for those knocking on the door, but if there is a shake up for the 6 nations thats going to be focused on the more problematic areas like the half back pairing (which may have a knock on impact to the centers if Farrell gets the 10 shirt), and replacement 8. I just dont see much to be gained from mucking about with the areas of strength when theres more obvious parts to tinker with. 
When the core world cup players are given their summer rest thats when we should be seeing more of these fringe names come to the fore. Jones has never been shy of picking wildcard players and giving players he sees have the potential to improve England a shot young. 

If we do see big names like Youngs or Ford ditched for the 6 nations then thats going to light up the french clubs eyes.

Gooseberry wrote:I think he will make himself available. The circumstances of his retirement where the culmination of a series of bad times. Firstly his leg break setting him back, an England training spat with Haskell, then getting himself suspended for the start of the 2018 6 nations (think he had another that year too) and demoted by Jones as a result coupled with making inflammatory statements that led to an online hate campaign. Its pretty easy to see how the pressure mounted on him and he could easily have reached a point where he felt it was too much and affecting his family life after a long summer away and no respite in sight with thw world cup year looming.
Since the return form the world cup hes been a lot more relaxed. His interviews are generally just him mucking about and having fun, and I don't see that he was overly upset by being second choice behind Vunipola more just glad to be there. He's pretty much always been behind Vunipola under Jones. 
When he made himself available for the world cup he stated he was in a different headspace, and I think thats quite evident from his on and off field behaviour. He seems to have lessened the pressure on himself a bit and is doing less to attract negativity. Hes young enough to be around for a Lions tour and another shot at the world cup and has plenty of unfinished business. England would certainly want him in the squad.

There was also the death of that promising Quins academy prop that Marler was mentoring.

What was the Marler Haskell training spat? Don't remember that.

miaow wrote:What was the Marler Haskell training spat? Don't remember that.

Haskell had marler round the throat in a little bit of rage, and marler just laughed.

Handbags...and they were pals after it.

Was that not during a game? The infamous Waterbottlegate?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So aside from Itoje, Isiekwe, Kpoku...are there any outstanding locks coming through?

Im always impressed by the giraffe at Exeter...Johnny Hill.

In the centres Ollie Lawrence is gathering some attention. Thats going to be some battle for the 13 spot.

Marchant
Manu
Joseph - whos sheer class when fit and on form
Lawrence...young outsider?

Isnt Jonny Hill country tied to Scotland now? Or am I thinking of a different Scots lock?

propdavid_london wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So aside from Itoje, Isiekwe, Kpoku...are there any outstanding locks coming through?

Im always impressed by the giraffe at Exeter...Johnny Hill.

In the centres Ollie Lawrence is gathering some attention. Thats going to be some battle for the 13 spot.

Marchant
Manu
Joseph - whos sheer class when fit and on form
Lawrence...young outsider?

Isnt Jonny Hill country tied to Scotland now?  Or am I thinking of a different Scots lock?

You're thinking of Sam Skinner I think Prop. Played for them during the autumns I believe and looked very good. Sadly missed the world cup through injury.

Ah, my mistake. In that case, Jonny Hill does look like a useful prospect.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

miaow wrote:What was the Marler Haskell training spat? Don't remember that.

Haskell had marler round the throat in a little bit of rage, and marler just laughed.

Handbags...and they were pals after it.

Think it was also the waterbottle thing? But yeah that playground scuffle. I thought it was at an England camp not during a game as Miaow suggests but may be wrong / CBA to fact check.
As you say it probably wasn't that big a deal between the two, but led to more unwanted negative press for Marler, more online abuse, and no doubt a stern eye from the coach. Maybe not the biggest deal in the grand scheme of things, but part of the picture of a build up of pressure and negativity for Marler. 

Id forgotten all about the death of the young player which almost certainly  a more profound impact on his decision. 

The general point stands, he says himself and its evident in the way he handles himself publicly that hes in a much better place mentally now as a well as being more mature as a player. The worst headline around him recently was that he crossed the halfway line during the haka, and if anything he got a more sympathetic response for that.  Id expect him to be available, and for England to want him.

Simon Amor reputed to be joining as England Attack Coach.

Vert interesting and very Australian! Sounds like Jones is sticking to his guns on looking to focus on the fast moving high skills game with ball in hand if hes appointing someone whos CV is essentially just Sevens.

bluestonevedder wrote:Moon looks fantastic. I was really impressed with him in the midlands derby and he's getting a lot of game time now.

Ribbans has looked excellent for a few seasons now, but he's South African by birth so wondering whether he holds ambitions to play for the Boks. 

There's always Stooke and Ewels at Bath as well.

He had me fooled at first as the Saints website states his place of birth as Somerset, not West Somerset. I don't think that EJ will care, he is EQ now and as far as I know SA haven't come sniffing around.

I might be being harsh, but Moon and Hill look just a touch below the required international standard to me, perhaps in the 'could do a job', without excelling territory. With the quality of the locks that England have in place, the only people in the conversation should really be those that are already at their level or are just below it and have a lot of time on their side.

Ribbands does look a fantastic player, but given that he is South African and we have a lot of lock options, I think we should be looking elsewhere first.

Cumbrian wrote:I might be being harsh, but Moon and Hill look just a touch below the required international standard to me, perhaps in the 'could do a job', without excelling territory.  With the quality of the locks that England have in place, the only people in the conversation should really be those that are already at their level or are just below it and have a lot of time on their side.

Ribbands does look a fantastic player, but given that he is South African and we have a lot of lock options, I think we should be looking elsewhere first.

Ribbans is actually EQ through a grandparent and came here when only 21 so he has played most if not all his senior rugby in England. I would have little problem with him being picked for England if EJ wanted him. Not that different from Hartley.

Fair enough, we'll still get stick for it though.

Did anybody impress in the latest round of European fixtures? I though Malins looked good for Sarries and Thorley looked half decent for Gloucester, before they did a Gloucester.

He didn't play in the last back to back rounds but Furbank has been on fire this season

Cumbrian wrote:Fair enough, we'll still get stick for it though.

Did anybody impress in the latest round of European fixtures?  I though Malins looked good for Sarries and Thorley looked half decent for Gloucester, before they did a Gloucester.

Sam Simmonds put in a typical Sam Simmonds performance

Baxter has ruled himself out of an England role u til 2023 at least.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Baxter has ruled himself out of an England role u til 2023 at least.

Him and his entire back room staff signed extended contracts through to the end of teh 22/23 season.

LondonTiger wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Fair enough, we'll still get stick for it though.

Did anybody impress in the latest round of European fixtures?  I though Malins looked good for Sarries and Thorley looked half decent for Gloucester, before they did a Gloucester.

Sam Simmonds put in a typical Sam Simmonds performance

Yes he did...will he make the England squad. Surely he's got to be a player that Jones likes. Pace, Power skilled...huge workrate (makes a huge number of tackles when required)
Back Row is a real dilema area.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:He didn't play in the last back to back rounds but Furbank has been on fire this season

He's been the most impressive fullback in the Premiership so far this season. Not bad going when Piutau and Hogg are also plying their trade in the league.

I hope that Furbank is in the training squad for the 6 Nations alongside the likes of Ted Hill and Jack Willis.

Does Dan Cole make the Six Nations squad? What is everybody's opinions?

From my point of view, I would include him but I would like to see a young tighthead come along as an apprentice. I’m thinking one of Ehren Painter (Northampton), Joe Heyes (Leicester), Will Stuart (Bath) or Ciaran Knight (Gloucester).

Cumbrian wrote:Does Dan Cole make the Six Nations squad?  What is everybody's opinions?

From my point of view, I would include him but I would like to see a young tighthead come along as an apprentice.  I’m thinking one of Ehren Painter (Northampton), Joe Heyes (Leicester), Will Stuart (Bath) or Ciaran Knight (Gloucester).

I would say no. Sinckler, Williams and a young un would work for me.