Refreshed side

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

Its disappointing but underlines the need for england to sort out its 2nd team. Having it as the saxons and not u20s allows more players to be eligible for other teams. Even that wouldn't be perfect but better than the saxons.

I was thinking that the last Saxons squad was a bit of a disaster for England:

Mike Haley- Ireland
Nick Tompkins- Wales
Christian Wade- NFL
Sam Jones- Retired

lostinwales wrote:To be fair I don't think Francis has let us down as such. He just doesn't feel like a permanent fixture

I agree..and he seems to be at the centre of what alot of Saints is doing well this season.

But clearly Jones isnt 100%

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its disappointing but underlines the need for england to sort out its 2nd team. Having it as the saxons and not u20s allows more players to be eligible for other teams. Even that wouldn't be perfect but better than the saxons.

I'm in favour of making the U20s our capture team, and playing as many of the most talented kids as possible in fixtures which would tie them to England, even if it means completely different squads from one U20 game to another

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:To be fair I don't think Francis has let us down as such. He just doesn't feel like a permanent fixture

I agree..and he seems to be at the centre of what alot of Saints is doing well this season.

But clearly Jones isnt 100%

Has he? I've only watched a few games and it wasn't Francis catching the eye. Hutchinson has looked outstanding and Proctor a great acquisition. Francis is a handy player to have because he is a midfield leader but I wouldn't describe him as looking like international material.

Cumbrian wrote:I was thinking that the last Saxons squad was a bit of a disaster for England:

Mike Haley- Ireland
Nick Tompkins- Wales
Christian Wade- NFL
Sam Jones- Retired

It was so badly thought-out. Perhaps Jones can be cut some slack, as he had more focus on the senior tour to Australia but his selections for the Argentina tour the following year, when Lions players were away, and he was fully in charge, were also flakey.

It seems a lot like Jones doesn't place any real store on anything outside senior England training camp performances, and England matches. Now, that might suit his coaching style, but it is a poor use of the large player base we have, which is an asset we should be better exploiting.

Only a few years ago, as a young England hopeful, you might have a crack at the sevens, U20 or Saxons before getting a sniff at an England camp. Now, the sevens programme is entirely divorced from the Premiership and England, while the Saxons is in mothballs. We have the U20 every year but very little joined-up thinking about using those players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its disappointing but underlines the need for england to sort out its 2nd team. Having it as the saxons and not u20s allows more players to be eligible for other teams. Even that wouldn't be perfect but better than the saxons.

U20s no longer allowed to be the Second side, since start of 2018 I believe.

Certainly needs something to be done from the rfu Bam. Even if we ensure that there was 1 Saxon game a year, make sure it's against another nations b team and throw a load of kids in to ensure they are then tied. Not normally that bothered but Tompkins is going to be their 1st choice centre.

I was going to suggest we re-instate the Saxons v Wolfhounds games - but arguably Ireland are also making use of ancestry (Haley, Addison & possibly Burns)

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its disappointing but underlines the need for england to sort out its 2nd team. Having it as the saxons and not u20s allows more players to be eligible for other teams. Even that wouldn't be perfect but better than the saxons.

U20s no longer allowed to be the Second side, since start of 2018 I believe.

Had no idea that had come in! So in reality there are no real capture sides other than the Saxons and Wolfhounds who never seem to play

So its literally just first team for England. Someone needs kicking at the rfu.

BamBam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its disappointing but underlines the need for england to sort out its 2nd team. Having it as the saxons and not u20s allows more players to be eligible for other teams. Even that wouldn't be perfect but better than the saxons.

U20s no longer allowed to be the Second side, since start of 2018 I believe.

Had no idea that had come in! So in reality there are no real capture sides other than the Saxons and Wolfhounds who never seem to play

World Rugby made the decision to avoid lawsuits I guess.

formerly known as Sam wrote:A player most would have expected to be in the England squad this time round. Pivac will have done well to get in their and convince him to changeover. Wales have some injuries in the centres at the minute but when those players are back is Thompkins going to get a look in? You'd have thought Pivac would go with his old Scarlets centre partnership though they aren't getting any younger.

They will be 32 and 33 end of this year. Foxy will hold out for the Lions I think but cannot see them playing much longer than that. I don't like picking Englishmen for Wales but if he wants to play he could have a place for a long time. Playing outside a Kiwi called Haloholo, mind.

I don't think England can complain given their cosmopolitan approach to selection though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So its literally just first team for England. Someone needs kicking at the rfu.

It is deliberate. Wales' A team has never played a game but is their second team. It's so players are not tied to their country and players like Moriarty will play for the English representative sides and not want to leave the club teams. It's clubs dictating things not the unions. England are in a better position than the Welsh players in particular on this issue. It's just they have such a big player base that later down the line they lose English players to Scotland, Ireland, and now Wales.

guestalt_physicality wrote:
I don't think England can complain given their cosmopolitan approach to selection though.

Examples miaow?

I am not miaow. Grow up.

Examples not miaow?

All teams pick players they are allowed to pick it's up to nations to tie them down. We've taken our eye off the ball here and gifted wales their best midfielder.

Ps england cant complain, no side can. Fans can complain that players havent been tied down early though.

I'd hoped that Tompkins would get a run at 12 for England. He's a very rounded player at inside as well as outside centre. His defensive organisation is outstanding these days as you'd expect from a Sarries centre who has learnt from Barritt, been coached by Farrell Snr and Sanderson.

Wales have got a good 'un and England lost a prospect there I fear.

Thought this article on RugbyPass was a good summary of the situation https://www.rugbypass.com/news/how-big-of-a-loss-to-english-rugby-is-new-wales-capture-nick-tompkins

I'd actually forgotten about Marchant, so that will be one to follow. I was hoping that a more robust option would come through at 12, someone that isn't Tuilagi or a second playmaker moved from 10 but enough of both attributes to offer a contrast in play style

Doesn't look like we'll have that option for this 6N at the least, I still think Redpath could possibly be the one

That's a good read, thanks.

Sam James is still at the right age to come in and Johnny Williams is on the road to recovery, though Wales are courting him as well. Thompkins is a blow but England do have other options. Lozowski is still yet to fully show his true promise.

BamBam wrote:
Doesn't look like we'll have that option for this 6N at the least, I still think Redpath could possibly be the one

Assuming he does not opt for Scotland.

BamBam wrote:Thought this article on RugbyPass was a good summary of the situation https://www.rugbypass.com/news/how-big-of-a-loss-to-english-rugby-is-new-wales-capture-nick-tompkins

I'd actually forgotten about Marchant, so that will be one to follow. I was hoping that a more robust option would come through at 12, someone that isn't Tuilagi or a second playmaker moved from 10 but enough of both attributes to offer a contrast in play style

Doesn't look like we'll have that option for this 6N at the least, I still think Redpath could possibly be the one

I reckon Scotland might rue Tompkins opting for Wales even more than we do in the long run, because I think Jones will really try to nail Redpath down now.

In 2017 Max Clark turned Wales down but might still be an option in the near future:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/aviva-premiership-bath-beat-leicester-max-clark-international-england-wales-tour-a7929506.html

BamBam wrote:Thought this article on RugbyPass was a good summary of the situation https://www.rugbypass.com/news/how-big-of-a-loss-to-english-rugby-is-new-wales-capture-nick-tompkins

I'd actually forgotten about Marchant, so that will be one to follow. I was hoping that a more robust option would come through at 12, someone that isn't Tuilagi or a second playmaker moved from 10 but enough of both attributes to offer a contrast in play style

Doesn't look like we'll have that option for this 6N at the least, I still think Redpath could possibly be the one

Give Prince Harry a chance to fully get back and see what he can do

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sam James is still at the right age to come in and Johnny Williams is on the road to recovery, though Wales are courting him as well. Thompkins is a blow but England do have other options. Lozowski is still yet to fully show his true promise.

Is his full name John Bleddyn Rhys Williams? (wiki).

mikey_dragon wrote:In 2017 Max Clark turned Wales down but might still be an option in the near future:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/aviva-premiership-bath-beat-leicester-max-clark-international-england-wales-tour-a7929506.html

Not sure he would get into your side anyway, he is a decent club player, but I don't know if he is up to the mark at international level.

James Lang was a youngster that had dual eligibility with England and Scots.
Perhaps a bit further down the pecking order but was starting to show some class before injury and last season.

Scots pounced on that one.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

BamBam wrote:Thought this article on RugbyPass was a good summary of the situation https://www.rugbypass.com/news/how-big-of-a-loss-to-english-rugby-is-new-wales-capture-nick-tompkins

I'd actually forgotten about Marchant, so that will be one to follow. I was hoping that a more robust option would come through at 12, someone that isn't Tuilagi or a second playmaker moved from 10 but enough of both attributes to offer a contrast in play style

Doesn't look like we'll have that option for this 6N at the least, I still think Redpath could possibly be the one

Give Prince Harry a chance to fully get back and see what he can do

I'm a big fan of Mallinder. He's often compared to Twelvetrees but one significant difference is that he's a lot quicker so offers more running threat. He's that classic tall runner who doesn't look that fast at a glance but his stride just eats up the yards.

His biggest and well known challenge is sorting his tackle technique but he's not the only young player who's ever needed to do so.

It hasn't held Owen Farrell back.

Max Ojomoh, is that Steves son?

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sam James is still at the right age to come in and Johnny Williams is on the road to recovery, though Wales are courting him as well. Thompkins is a blow but England do have other options. Lozowski is still yet to fully show his true promise.

Is his full name John Bleddyn Rhys Williams? (wiki).

He did turn down the chance to go to a couple of regions when he went to Newcastle. Opted for England under 20s and was brought up in Reading if I remember rightly. A Welsh parent I'd guess with that name and being born in Weston Super Mare.

I like a hard hitting centre with acceleration who can pick a good angle. Hill at Chiefs is similar but not quite as good.

Redpath seems to have dropped slightly off the pecking order this season, struggling to get game time with Sale. Maybe a bit of a victim of their SA influx. probably a bit of second season syndrome as well, having looked very promising last year.

I'd be surprised if he was called up for England this year, his performances certainly would not warrant it. His brother is playing Scotland u18s and I imagine he will still be quite conflicted about where to go in the end. He probably just needs to concentrate on his game for now and worry about that if he is playing well enough and the calls come along.

Johnny Williams is also Scots qualified, a three way split for him, but he always seemed to fancy playing for England. Still things can change and with what he has gone through this year, maybe he will be a little bit more philosophical about things from here on in.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sam James is still at the right age to come in and Johnny Williams is on the road to recovery, though Wales are courting him as well. Thompkins is a blow but England do have other options. Lozowski is still yet to fully show his true promise.

Is his full name John Bleddyn Rhys Williams? (wiki).

He did turn down the chance to go to a couple of regions when he went to Newcastle. Opted for England under 20s and was brought up in Reading if I remember rightly. A Welsh parent I'd guess with that name and being born in Weston Super Mare.

I like a hard hitting centre with acceleration who can pick a good angle. Hill at Chiefs is similar but not quite as good.

He just about has the name of every famous Welsh rugby player... Be weird if he didn't play for us

Funnily enough, Johnny Williams is the name of an England and British Lions scrum half from the 1950s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Williams_(rugby_union_born_1932)

Peter Williams was an England fly half in the 80s (he played at the inaugural World Cup) who switched to league, and then represented Wales (his dad was Llanelli player Roy Williams)

The only Williams to be capped for England since Peter, is Harry the prop.

Rugby Fan wrote:
Peter Williams was an England fly half in the 80s (he played at the inaugural World Cup) who switched to league, and then represented Wales (his dad was Llanelli player Roy Williams)

That was an extremely iffy selection too.

Mind you just looked at the squad. OF 27 players only 9 entered that World Cup with 10 or more caps, Mike Harrison not one of those 9.

Johnny Williams will have to move to a decent club with decent tactics...rather than remaining in the prehistoric sludge fest that is Dean Richards management and tactics.

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sam James is still at the right age to come in and Johnny Williams is on the road to recovery, though Wales are courting him as well. Thompkins is a blow but England do have other options. Lozowski is still yet to fully show his true promise.

Is his full name John Bleddyn Rhys Williams? (wiki).

He did turn down the chance to go to a couple of regions when he went to Newcastle. Opted for England under 20s and was brought up in Reading if I remember rightly. A Welsh parent I'd guess with that name and being born in Weston Super Mare.

I like a hard hitting centre with acceleration who can pick a good angle. Hill at Chiefs is similar but not quite as good.

He just about has the name of every famous Welsh rugby player... Be weird if he didn't play for us

Imagine someone called JBR Williams playing against Wales.

(To be clear, I know the original was JPR and not JBR, in case anyone says!)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sam James is still at the right age to come in and Johnny Williams is on the road to recovery, though Wales are courting him as well. Thompkins is a blow but England do have other options. Lozowski is still yet to fully show his true promise.

Is his full name John Bleddyn Rhys Williams? (wiki).

He did turn down the chance to go to a couple of regions when he went to Newcastle. Opted for England under 20s and was brought up in Reading if I remember rightly. A Welsh parent I'd guess with that name and being born in Weston Super Mare.

I like a hard hitting centre with acceleration who can pick a good angle. Hill at Chiefs is similar but not quite as good.

He just about has the name of every famous Welsh rugby player... Be weird if he didn't play for us

Imagine someone called JBR Williams playing against Wales.

(To be clear, I know the original was JPR and not JBR, in case anyone says!)

Ah yes, likely story.

I am sure if it wasn't for his diagnosis he would have been loaned out to any number of prem sides.
His quality was quite evident previously. Lets hope that he has a steady improvement as he returns to playing, and probably staying with falcons in the championship is the ideal place for him to build back up.

With regards to England, it will be very interesting to see how the recent Saracens development will impact on England and the upcoming 6N. I am sure that should they be relegated the official line from the RFU would be that they can still be selected if players are in the Championship (I think they said the same thing to Chris Pennel when Worces went down) - I also don't think he was ever selected again!

The Saracens contingent are so key to this current England group - I find it had to imagine that England's 6N campaign wont be damaged on some level.

Cumbrian wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Sam James is still at the right age to come in and Johnny Williams is on the road to recovery, though Wales are courting him as well. Thompkins is a blow but England do have other options. Lozowski is still yet to fully show his true promise.

Is his full name John Bleddyn Rhys Williams? (wiki).

He did turn down the chance to go to a couple of regions when he went to Newcastle. Opted for England under 20s and was brought up in Reading if I remember rightly. A Welsh parent I'd guess with that name and being born in Weston Super Mare.

I like a hard hitting centre with acceleration who can pick a good angle. Hill at Chiefs is similar but not quite as good.

He just about has the name of every famous Welsh rugby player... Be weird if he didn't play for us

Imagine someone called JBR Williams playing against Wales.

(To be clear, I know the original was JPR and not JBR, in case anyone says!)

Ah yes, likely story.  

He was in the side the same time as Barry Edwards and JJ Hanrahan.

Jones has been at the harlequins match today and that means that Dombrandt will be included in the squad on monday. Hes been excellent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones has been at the harlequins match today and that means that Dombrandt will be included in the squad on monday. Hes been excellent.

Bet he is ruing that Abendanon decided to play club rugby in France rather than play for England...! What has he got Two Caps?

Hes flaky as hell still though.

Abendanon was unlucky with injuries around the times he was about to be capped, but hes not exactly the future is he. If England were fishing around for a short term option the Brown would still be in the conversation, but they arent and he isnt. Unless you mean him going there 5 years ago then yeah maybe he might've been in the mix for the last world cup ....but England didnt loose the final because of Daly.

Gooseberry wrote: Abendanon was unlucky with injuries around the times he was about to be capped, but hes not exactly the future is he. If England were fishing around for a short term option the Brown would still be in the conversation, but they arent and he isnt. Unless you mean him going there 5 years ago then yeah maybe he might've been in the mix for the last world cup ....but England didnt loose the final because of Daly.

I was thinking over the last five years. Always looks dangerous in attack

Despite the loss Dombrandt looked a cracking prospect

Furbank and Daly are the form fullbacks in the Prem so I hope they are in the squad.

Malins was also very good there in his starts at 15.

I still think Nowell has all the attributes to be an excellent fullback.