Refreshed side

First topic message reminder :

So a few comments I've lifted from the guardian from Eddie Jones. Pretty much as you'd expect in terms of looking ahead to the next challenge.
“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.'

Apparently the team at the weekend is the youngest to appear in a WC final so there won't be 15 new guys coming in but clearly a few are coming to the end. Are there particular areas or players jones will be looking at?

For me this bunch stand a decent chance in and around the squad to get more caps soon. Genge, Painter, Willis, Dombrandt, Smith, spencer, Robson and a outside chance of Mullins at full back.

Guys that are all young enough to be around for years to come but all with great potential. Perhaps not as good/proven as some who will step back but hugely talented.

GeordieFalcon wrote:A flank pairing of the Curry twins would not be bad at all.

Is there anything to stop Saracens holding back their international players?
And would they actually do it?

How do you mean? Only really by pretending they are injured. The international windows mandate release, and the EPS agreement extends that. 
The salary cap includes allowances for players called up anyway, so they wont get around any issues with that by not releasing them. Any non England test players called up would only be released for the international window under the PRL rules anyway. 

I doubt the players themselves would be too happy with being complicit in it either.

Yeah, i dont think the players would be party to it...just curious if thats a route Saracens the club would take with the current league position etc.

But at the moment they still have a very strong 2nd team.

Their second choice team would arguably get them in the top 4! I would say a mixture of 2/3rd choice players would still see them in the lower/mid table!

So what are your thoughts on your new coaches?

https://www.planetrugby.com/simon-amor-matt-proudfoot-join-england-coaching-staff/

maestegmafia wrote:So what are your thoughts on your new coaches?

https://www.planetrugby.com/simon-amor-matt-proudfoot-join-england-coaching-staff/

I don't think anyone has had a good read on Eddie Jones and his coaches. When England started losing matches under him, it was common to hear that the exit of several members of his coaching team was a clear sign Jones had lost the plot. I can't recall anyone being enthusiastic about the hire of John Mitchell.

Now, Mitchell is regarded as a good choice, and the heavy rotation of coaching staff is seen either as necessary collateral damage, given Jones' relentlessness, or a good way to keep things fresh.

On balance, then, Jones has earned the benefit of any doubt. Still, we may look back and wonder whether the RFU really helped develop any coaching talent during his tenure.

Rugby Fan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:So what are your thoughts on your new coaches?

https://www.planetrugby.com/simon-amor-matt-proudfoot-join-england-coaching-staff/

I don't think anyone has had a good read on Eddie Jones and his coaches. When England started losing matches under him, it was common to hear that the exit of several members of his coaching team was a clear sign Jones had lost the plot. I can't recall anyone being enthusiastic about the hire of John Mitchell.

Now, Mitchell is regarded as a good choice, and the heavy rotation of coaching staff is seen either as necessary collateral damage, given Jones' relentlessness, or a good way to keep things fresh.

On balance, then, Jones has earned the benefit of any doubt. Still, we may look back and wonder whether the RFU really helped develop any coaching talent during his tenure.

They have managed to retain Borthwick who was rumoured to be leaving for Tigers last week

Borthwick is not necessarily staying. He is on a rolling 12 month contract anyway and I actually think this pretty much confirms his departure. His replacement comes in, they oversee things together through the 6Ns (with Borthwick supposedly the skills coach - probably concentrating on lineout) then Borthwick leaves and they bring in a replacement for Hatley who left after the WC.

maestegmafia wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:So what are your thoughts on your new coaches?

https://www.planetrugby.com/simon-amor-matt-proudfoot-join-england-coaching-staff/

I don't think anyone has had a good read on Eddie Jones and his coaches. When England started losing matches under him, it was common to hear that the exit of several members of his coaching team was a clear sign Jones had lost the plot. I can't recall anyone being enthusiastic about the hire of John Mitchell.

Now, Mitchell is regarded as a good choice, and the heavy rotation of coaching staff is seen either as necessary collateral damage, given Jones' relentlessness, or a good way to keep things fresh.

On balance, then, Jones has earned the benefit of any doubt. Still, we may look back and wonder whether the RFU really helped develop any coaching talent during his tenure.

They have managed to retain Borthwick who was rumoured to be leaving for Tigers last week

Sort of. He had always said he was going to stay with England for the six nations, although Tigers have been trying to get him to come sooner. 

It possibly makes some sense of why hes ended with the rather odd " skills coach" job which whilst hes a great coach isnt the job you'd immediately think of for him.  Proudfoot coming in as forwards coach shows England are planning on Borthwick not be there, I suspect its a short term thing and if he does stay he may be given a more senior role. Its notable that Jones made no mention of him when discussing the coaches given new roles. Borthwick could end up being Jones' successor if he gets a head coach role at club level and does well, so Tigers is a shrewd move for him long term unless England are going to offer him an assistant head role. best I can figure is the skills coach is a temporary thing till he either signs up for Tigers and whilst they find someone to fill that job properly.  (*edit this fits with LTs post above made whilst I was typing this ...no plagiarism!)

Proudfoot seems like a shrewd addition. He certainly will have the natural respect of the England pack after the world cup final. Armor is another coach with a strong background, and fit Jones' approach to attacking play and has been working with England 15s in training camps so theres plenty of continuity there. 

Overall England look to still have a strong team, Borthwicks line out will be missed but he has plenty of long term pupils in the squad so the knowledge and ways of working wont be lost. Proudfoot may bring some new dark arts to the scrum to balance that out.

I think we'll need to see the squad in the autumn before we can start to get an idea of impact. They'll have a large input to player choice eventually but think it'll be mainly jones and Mitchell's voicesnwhonare heard on monday.

Proudfoot looks like a superb signing. As if the England pack weren’t terrifying enough for the opposition they certainly will be this year.

EJ seems to know what he wants and how he wants England to play and is doing a superb job of making that happen.

First Underhill and now Proudfoot. We'll be renaming the A team as the Shire next.

lostinwales wrote:First Underhill and now Proudfoot. We'll be renaming the A team as the Shire next.

Matt Dawson was a Gollum look a like

I'm pleased Amor is there for two reasons: he's English, and he's been part of the RFU. The RFU has a poor record of keeping coaches. Mike Friday and Ben Ryan from the sevens set-up have both had success after England, and neither has good things to say about their experience working with the RFU. It's about time we got some return in the XVs on our coachhing investment.

Very excited to see what Proudfoot can bring, Could easily see Kpoku and Isiekwe getting called up for a more physical England side

The Times reporting that Bortbwick is working out his notice.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2020/01/14/saracens-centre-nick-tompkins-brink-wales-switch-six-nations/amp/

Tompkins considering switching to the dark side.

That would be annoying as the guys class. Seems to have just be unearthed or else he would have been a fixture for a while.

McCall learnt of it in November.

A player most would have expected to be in the England squad this time round. Pivac will have done well to get in their and convince him to changeover. Wales have some injuries in the centres at the minute but when those players are back is Thompkins going to get a look in? You'd have thought Pivac would go with his old Scarlets centre partnership though they aren't getting any younger.

The second hes in the team he will be there for the next 6 years. Hope jones is on the phone to him.

We may see him named in two squads?

Think the lamb I had for lunch on Sunday may have had a grandparent once visit Wales, do you think they'll be digging that out for a spot on the bench?

BamBam wrote:Think the lamb I had for lunch on Sunday may have had a grandparent once visit Wales, do you think they'll be digging that out for a spot on the bench?

Ah but it was New Zealand lamb, so you qualify there too.

NZ would only be interested due to the lamb's Samoan grandparent

How does Tompkins qualify for Wales?

GeordieFalcon wrote:How does Tompkins qualify for Wales?

Granny born in Wales in 1933 apparently. So Welsh he only found out about it earlier this season

He signed a new contract with Sarries through to 2022 last year, so could be an interesting situation for them in a year or so if he wants to carry on playing for Wales

Moving Daly to 13 permanently would be an option, but his versatility at 12/13 has always been a strength imo.

Shame for England, but if other teams are going to be stalking little old ladies there's not a lot we can do

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:How does Tompkins qualify for Wales?

Granny born in Wales in 1933 apparently. So Welsh he only found out about it earlier this season

That was Mark McCall who only found out about it earlier this season no, and not Tompkins as you?re implying? It?s a selection that probably won?t sit right with a lot of people but what can you do. I?m glad, personally, as we aren?t putting out enough good centres. It?s why we were set to rely on Halaholo.

mikey_dragon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:How does Tompkins qualify for Wales?

Granny born in Wales in 1933 apparently. So Welsh he only found out about it earlier this season

That was Mark McCall who only found out about it earlier this season no, and not Tompkins as you?re implying? It?s a selection that probably won?t sit right with a lot of people but what can you do. I?m glad, personally, as we aren?t putting out enough good centres. It?s why we were set to rely on Halaholo.

MCCall end of last November, Tompkins at start of the season - according to rumours on Saracens bulletin board.

LondonTiger wrote:We may see him named in two squads?

That would create an interesting side show.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:We may see him named in two squads?

That would create an interesting side show.

I wonder how big Wales subscription to Ancestry.com is?

Surely he would have had to accept a call up to be named in the squad. With that in mind, I can't imagine Eddie would name him in the England squad, would be a PR disaster if he then picks them

Tompkins done. Sheedy next...

Also, Will Rowlands is a new one. Who even is he

BamBam wrote:Surely he would have had to accept a call up to be named in the squad. With that in mind, I can't imagine Eddie would name him in the England squad, would be a PR disaster if he then picks them

Not really. Gary Graham switched (back) to Scotland easily enough.

Rugby Fan wrote:

BamBam wrote:Surely he would have had to accept a call up to be named in the squad. With that in mind, I can't imagine Eddie would name him in the England squad, would be a PR disaster if he then picks them

Not really. Gary Graham switched (back) to Scotland easily enough.

Just seen the quotes from Tompkins - makes me feel that Eddie had not been in touch.

Nearly two years ago, the Mail on Sunday identified Tompkins, Joe Marchant, Max Clark, Johnny Williams and Sam Moore as targets for Wales.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5721905/Wales-attempt-poach-five-England-hopefuls-ahead-2019-World-Cup.html

Rugby Fan wrote:Nearly two years ago, the Mail on Sunday identified Tompkins, Joe Marchant, Max Clark, Johnny Williams and Sam Moore as targets for Wales.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5721905/Wales-attempt-poach-five-England-hopefuls-ahead-2019-World-Cup.html

Fair enough, wonder if Wales spoke to Tompkins before this and his was hoping for England, or this was the first discussion. I feel we have lost a good un

Would he risk his career at Sarries and possible England inclusion for what could turn out to be a few games whilst the injured get back to fitness. How is Pivac getting around the "play in Wales" rule, or doesn't it apply to players that didn't know they were Welsh.

As has been said a lot on these boards, the granny qualifying rule should move up a generation. I have a grandfather who was born in NI, but came to live in the North East when still a boy; I therefore qualify for Ireland, but I am a proud Englishman, I could never represent any other country. It would just not feel right.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Would he risk his career at Sarries and possible England inclusion for what could turn out to be a few games whilst the injured get back to fitness. How is Pivac getting around the "play in Wales" rule, or doesn't it apply to players that didn't know they were Welsh.

Not capped so rules do not apply. I suspect if he is as good as we think various exceptions would be made as per Tomas Francis. In fact in the new rules they may allow a mass dispensation for guys who have never been to played in Wales.

Do you think Tompkins is actually on Jones radar??

He seems to have his core?

Rugby Fan wrote:Nearly two years ago, the Mail on Sunday identified Tompkins, Joe Marchant, Max Clark, Johnny Williams and Sam Moore as targets for Wales.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5721905/Wales-attempt-poach-five-England-hopefuls-ahead-2019-World-Cup.html

Is that Johnny Williams who is with us? Potentially a brilliant player...but just so injury prone, and recently he's had a health issue. But he's back playing again so if he can stay fit...and move on to a big club then he could be a hell of a 12 for someone.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Nearly two years ago, the Mail on Sunday identified Tompkins, Joe Marchant, Max Clark, Johnny Williams and Sam Moore as targets for Wales.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5721905/Wales-attempt-poach-five-England-hopefuls-ahead-2019-World-Cup.html

Is that Johnny Williams who is with us? Potentially a brilliant player...but just so injury prone, and recently he's had a health issue. But he's back playing again so if he can stay fit...and move on to a big club then he could be a hell of a 12 for someone.

Yes thats the one. I think he has a Welsh parent.

To be honest of that list you could understand Sam Moore looking to Wales if he was good enough, and I believe Max Clark was born in Wales, but the rest feels felt like a stretch.

LondonTiger wrote:Fair enough, wonder if Wales spoke to Tompkins before this and his was hoping for England, or this was the first discussion. I feel we have lost a good un

Jones may make some left-field selections but has tended to stick with the same core players. If you don't feel you are on his radar, then it's easy to conclude it might never happen for you, because Jones doesn't appear to value Premiership performances. Alex Goode, Christian Wade, Danny Cipriani, Dan Robson, Don Armand etc all head purple patches for their clubs without getting a real chance for England under Jones.

The example of players like Tomas Francis, Jake Polledri, Will Addison, Billy Burns, Mike Haley, Sam Skinner, and even Callum Braley, makes it much easier to see how choosing another side might play out.

We don't even have any Saxons games to capture fringe players, not that Jones used that option at all well when he first took over. None of the Saxons players who went to South Africa in 2016 (including Tompkins and Mike Haley) were employed to any real effect in subsequent senior England squads. As I've said before here: either Jones selected entirely the wrong players for that Saxons side, or else he completely failed in player development. Either way, it remains one his worst failures as England coach.

Here's that 2016 Saxons squad:

The England Saxons squad to tour South Africa in June:

Forwards: Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks), Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Tommy Taylor (Wasps), George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons), Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints), James Craig (Northampton Saints), Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Dave Attwood (Bath), Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs), Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs), Matthew Kvesic (Gloucester), James Chisholm (Harlequins), Sam Jones (Wasps)

Backs: Dan Robson (Wasps), Michael Young (Newcastle Falcons), Oliver Devoto (Bath), Danny Cipriani (Wasps), Christian Wade (Wasps), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Nick Tompkins (Saracens), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Alex Lewington (London Irish), Sam James (Sale Sharks), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Management Team

Head Coach – Ali Hepher (Exeter Chiefs), Assistant Coach – Andy Titterrell (Wasps), Assistant Coach – Alan Dickens (Northampton Saints), Team Manager – Richard Hill

Worth also recalling that those England Saxons players beat South Africa A 2-0 in South Africa, which was no mean feat.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think Tompkins is actually on Jones radar??

He seems to have his core?

I have to assume no. If Jones was considering calling him up then he would surely have spoken to the lad. Pretty sure if it was a straight choice then Tompkins would have chosen England.

Our 13 options are ok as it is, but he would have offered an alternative. Manu and JJ have had plenty of injury problems, and Slade has missed a few games with injury too.

Think LT is right with the above, but would be a shame if he does perform well at the next level

Slade currently injurerd (broken ankle), perhaps out until March. (At end of December Baxter said 6-8 weeks before he would be back in training)

Manu has missed the last 3 weeks with his groin strain.

JJ is fit I think.

Is Tompkins a 12 or 13.
13 i think we are fine.

12 is the area of concern. Farrell does a job, but the rest are all possibles to be looked at (Devoto etc ) or tried and not fit the bill (Piers Francis etc).

To be fair I don't think Francis has let us down as such. He just doesn't feel like a permanent fixture

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Tompkins a 12 or 13.

Both.