Ireland vs Scotland 6 Nations - Saturday 1st February 2020 - Match Thread

[Tramptastic]

First topic message reminder :

IRELAND V SCOTLAND

1st of February 2020 16:45 Kick off

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Pascal Gauzere (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Ireland: 15 Jordan Larmour, 14 Andrew Conway, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 Jacob Stockdale, 10 Jonathan Sexton (c), 9 Conor Murray, 8 Caelan Doris, 7 Josh van der Flier, 6 CJ Stander, 5 James Ryan, 4 Iain Henderson, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Rob Herring, 1 Cian Healy
Replacements: 16 Ronan Kelleher, 17 Dave Kilcoyne, 18 Andrew Porter, 19 Devin Toner, 20 Peter O’Mahony, 21 John Cooney, 22 Ross Byrne, 23 Robbie Henshaw

Scotland: 15 Stuart Hogg (c), 14 Sean Maitland, 13 Huw Jones, 12 Sam Johnson, 11 Blair Kinghorn, 10 Adam Hastings, 9 Ali Price, 8 Nick Haining, 7 Hamish Watson, 6 Jamie Ritchie, 5 Jonny Gray, 4 Scott Cummings, 3 Zander Fagerson, 2 Fraser Brown, 1 Rory Sutherland
Replacements: 16 Stuart McInally, 17 Allan Dell, 18 Simon Berghan, 19 Ben Toolis, 20 Cornell du Preez, 21 George Horne, 22 Rory Hutchinson, 23 Chris Harris

Perennial World Cup Quarter Finalists vs A Team With No Clear Strategy That Doesn't Currently Play To It's Strengths, Please Come Back Vern

Historical head to head data is useless as Scotland won for the 1st hundred years but Ireland have been dead good since the year 2000, except in 2010 at Croke Park which tells you Dan Parks is the finest rugby player Scotland has ever poached from Australia.

New head coach for Ireland in Farrell vs Townsend with new back room staff

Captain Sexton vs Captain Hogg - Eurgh, there's going to be so much moaning at the ref.

I'm looking forward to seeing a healthy amount of abuse in the thread below, please enjoy.

[NeilyBroon]

Time for Weir to step up and be the hero we know he is. The first international FH to prop at LH in between his 100% kick success rate.

[RDW]

If this is a walk out from Finn I'm assuming he will have fellow players who agree with his side of whatever the argument is - could cause mass disruption in the squad...

If he has walked out it is really, really sh!tty of him though (holding full judgement until the facts are known!)

[RDW]

Been confirmed by SRU - Breach of team protocal" and will not play against Ireland

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

[RDW]

STATEMENT | Scotland team spokesperson: “Stand-off Finn Russell will play no further part in preparations for Scotland’s Six Nations opener against Ireland, having been disciplined for a breach of team protocol during the week’s camp in Edinburgh. He has returned to his club."

[bsando]

Hastings has looked good recently and he plays alongside Price and Horne every week. Huge opportunity for him if Russell really isn’t going to be involved.

[123456789.]

I think there's probably fairly short odds on it being to do with the tactics. Townsend has been fairly defiant that his 2019 way is right and the players are doing it wrong. Russell has said publicly it doesn't work. Shown at Twickenham that it doesn't work. It didn't work at the World Cup. I can imagine it'd be a tad frustrating to turn up at the camp to be told that you're going to spend six weeks smacking your head against a brick wall. If he's been given a choice between Edinburgh Napier sports centre playing kick tennis or Paris playing rugby with Vakatawa and Zebo it's not difficult to see why he may have walked.

[Tramptastic]

Hastings to start, call up Weir for the bench?

[Tramptastic]

Bring back Cotter

[RDW]

Good that Hogg has been eased gently into his captaincy....he's going to have to keep the squad from falling apart!

[123456789.]

Hastings will start now, if he's smart he'll bring Weir in. We all know it'll be Pete Horne.

[Tramptastic]

Surely if it was a disagreement on tactics Hogg would be inclined to back Russell?

This is all a bit bizarre

[bsando]

It’s get big pretty brutal on Twitter already... fans want answers https://mobile.twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1220329648887943168?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

[Tramptastic]

It does say he left of his own accord AFTER he had been disciplined...

Suggest he said something, it was deemed a "breach of protocol" and he's chosen to leave because his words/actions achieved the square root of f-all

[123456789.]

Allan Massie's spot on: "Because, you know, a lot of people have spent a lot of money to support the team in this year's championship and they deserve something better than "breach of team protocol" when the team's most important player is dismissed from the camp"

If he's been out on the lash or something of that sort when he got back to Scotland hopefully this is just a one match suspension job. If it's an argument on tactics that boiled over then Townsend had to give him the boot. He couldn't really change his whole strategy at the beck and call of one player no matter how important. Even if he absolutely definitely should not be continuing the same tactics.

[Tramptastic]

Again, offside line hinting it's about his relationship with Townsend https://www.theoffsideline.com/finn-russell-leaves-scotland-camp-with-six-nations-involvement-in-doubt/

[TightHEAD]

Sounds like someone has thrown their toys out of the pram.

[Rugby Fan]

Sounds a bit like a Roy Keane World Cup moment.

[Tramptastic]

Allan Massie's spot on: "Because, you know, a lot of people have spent a lot of money to support the team in this year's championship and they deserve something better than "breach of team protocol" when the team's most important player is dismissed from the camp"

If he's been out on the lash or something of that sort when he got back to Scotland hopefully this is just a one match suspension job. If it's an argument on tactics that boiled over then Townsend had to give him the boot. He couldn't really change his whole strategy at the beck and call of one player no matter how important. Even if he absolutely definitely should not be continuing the same tactics.

I don't think it'll be about being out on the lash - those things are sorted out internally with a kangaroo court session amongst the players and he'd of taken it on the chin

If it's about tactics then Russell will feel like he'll be in the right as he changed how they played against England in the 2nd half and it worked. Scotland resumed the previous tactics for the world cup and we all know how that ended...

Russell will feel like he could challenge Townsend and if he's hit a brick wall with a resounding "no" he's maybe walked out in frustration... understandable...

[Tramptastic]

Sounds like someone has thrown their toys out of the pram.

He's probably been told he's no longer allowed to humiliate Farrell in 40 minutes of sublime rugby. That kind of thing just isn't honorable

[profitius]

It would be a great shame if we don't get to see Russell in this 6 nations. Being greedy, I'm happy he's missing for the ireland match although Hastings looks quality too.

[Tramptastic]

It would be a great shame if we don't get to see Russell in this 6 nations. Being greedy, I'm happy he's missing for the ireland match although Hastings looks quality too.

I wouldn't be so worried if Hastings had another season under his belt. He's getting better all the time and he brings a wee bit more control to a game. You never know, this might be the season he properly announces himself on the international scene.

[123456789.]

Allan Massie's spot on: "Because, you know, a lot of people have spent a lot of money to support the team in this year's championship and they deserve something better than "breach of team protocol" when the team's most important player is dismissed from the camp"

If he's been out on the lash or something of that sort when he got back to Scotland hopefully this is just a one match suspension job. If it's an argument on tactics that boiled over then Townsend had to give him the boot. He couldn't really change his whole strategy at the beck and call of one player no matter how important. Even if he absolutely definitely should not be continuing the same tactics.

I don't think it'll be about being out on the lash - those things are sorted out internally with a kangaroo court session amongst the players and he'd of taken it on the chin

If it's about tactics then Russell will feel like he'll be in the right as he changed how they played against England in the 2nd half and it worked. Scotland resumed the previous tactics for the world cup and we all know how that ended...

Russell will feel like he could challenge Townsend and if he's hit a brick wall with a resounding "no" he's maybe walked out in frustration... understandable...

Oh yeah I absolutely think it's to do with tactics. It goes some way to showing how much Townsend has dug in on this style of play despite all evidence pointing against it. Before last season, Glasgow and Scotland (Townsend and Cotter) had stumbled on a style of play and a group of players that won matches. Russell and Townsend developed it together at Glasgow, it won the Pro12. For Scotland between 2017 and 2018, it was a style that saw off every other Six Nations team. Four of them by more than 7. Recorded a 4th (when we came joint on points with 2nd and 3rd) and 3rd place finish in 2017 and 2018. With Russell, Jones and Hogg we had a three pronged attack that put Australia to the sword and should have beaten New Zealand.

Since the tactical change Jones has gone off of the boil, Hogg has not looked half as dangerous. Russell has called him out publicly and displayed the problem against England at Twickenham. We were knocked out of the World Cup losing to Japan and not coming close to Ireland. You would have thought that would be enough, Townsend would change course. If he hasn't there can be no surprise that Russell has walked out. Unless we finish top half in this Six Nations Townsend has to go now. His man management is dreadful, his tactics have gone wrong. The last few months have been some of the lowest points as a Scotland fan. Dodson showed us up in Japan and is paid absurdly for doing so all the while backing his lackey who has quite obviously lost the plot. We have a brilliant group of players now. For how long did we dream of a player like Russell at fly-half?

I may be wrong, it may be that Russell has done something dreadful in the camp or that the money has gone to his head in which case sending him on his way was probably inevitable. But if it's Townsend burying his head in the sand then he needs to make sure it works out or he simply has to go.

[TightHEAD]

Sounds like someone has thrown their toys out of the pram.

He's probably been told he's no longer allowed to humiliate Farrell in 40 minutes of sublime rugby. That kind of thing just isn't honorable  

I'm a Ford man.

[123456789.]

https://twitter.com/SimonZebo/status/1220340127647633408


There is the other possibility that, given Hastings is playing rather well and Russell was not exactly amazing for Racing at the weekend. Perhaps he's not taken too kindly to being dropped.

[bsando]

Finn Russell has become a superstar of rugby union. His nutmeg grubber against Munster most recently is the sort of thing fans love and he plays in a club side full of superstars. He has to be given some free reign to play. Trying to mould a player like that into a Sexton or Biggar isn’t going to work. You pick Russell at 10 and you know he’ll try things. I really hope he isn’t ostracised like Cipriani at England if it is a clash of tactics between him and Toonie.

[Tramptastic]

Sounds like someone has thrown their toys out of the pram.

He's probably been told he's no longer allowed to humiliate Farrell in 40 minutes of sublime rugby. That kind of thing just isn't honorable  

I'm a Ford man.

They make terrible cars, don't buy american!

But back to the rugby...

[TightHEAD]

Sounds like someone has thrown their toys out of the pram.

He's probably been told he's no longer allowed to humiliate Farrell in 40 minutes of sublime rugby. That kind of thing just isn't honorable  

I'm a Ford man.

They make terrible cars, don't buy american!

But back to the rugby...

I like Adam Hasting though, wish he had stayed at Bath. He'll do a good job for you i'm sure.

[Gooseberry]

Finn Russell has become a superstar of rugby union.

Guarantee you Wilkinson gets more mentions in the build up to the 6 nations coverage on BBC than he does

[Tramptastic]

Sounds like someone has thrown their toys out of the pram.

He's probably been told he's no longer allowed to humiliate Farrell in 40 minutes of sublime rugby. That kind of thing just isn't honorable  

I'm a Ford man.

They make terrible cars, don't buy american!

But back to the rugby...

I like Adam Hasting though, wish he had stayed at Bath. He'll do a good job for you i'm sure.

That's very kind of you to say so, i'm worried he's still a bit green. Russell at 27 is entering his prime and for him to not be involved is a shambles

[RDW]

The SRU will be 'glad' this happened when it did - it is after the official announcement which was yesterday, and all the non-Scotland players have gone home anyway to play this weekend. I can't imagine Towsend will be facing the media for any reason until next week. 

Of course this might have happened earlier in the week and kept quiet until now!

[123456789.]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/rugby/1098182/finn-russells-six-nations-in-doubt-as-stand-off-exits-camp-after-disciplinary-breach/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

This is a fairly good article on it. Although it's difficult to say if all this underlying problems for a year stuff has any basis in terms of reports from the camp or whether it's solely based on the Twickenham debacle.

[SecretFly]

Well, it's proving to be a pretty unrelenting "annus horriblis" season for Scotland so far.... and the pressure cooker valve seems to be broken on Townsend's tenure in the job.  

He'll need a special Six Nations to survive, it seems, as the old cliche of losing the dressing room appears to be gaining strength.  Even if he was right in any disagreement with Russell, the fact that Russell feels safe in ruffling feathers and leaving means he probably gambles that Townsend's days are numbered.  
Can't really have such dissent openly symbolised by your most naturally gifted player deserting camp but then we also hear Hogg virtually chose himself as Captain.
So two ways it can go from here.  Townsend sticks to his guns and principles and has a decent 6N to rub rebel players' noses in it, or........ a sacking might be inevitable if players look like they are on a go-slow protest during the upcoming campaign.

[bsando]

Finn Russell has become a superstar of rugby union.

Guarantee you Wilkinson gets more mentions in the build up to the 6 nations coverage on BBC than he does

That’s obviously a given haha

[RDW]

Well, it's proving to be a pretty unrelenting "annus horriblis" season for Scotland so far.... and the pressure cooker valve seems to be broken on Townsend's tenure in the job.  

He'll need a special Six Nations to survive, it seems, as the old cliche of losing the dressing room appears to be gaining strength.  Even if he was right in any disagreement with Russell, the fact that Russell feels safe in ruffling feathers and leaving means he probably gambles that Townsend's days are numbered.  
Can't really have such dissent openly symbolised by your most naturally gifted player deserting camp but then we also hear Hogg virtually chose himself as Captain.
So two ways it can go from here.  Townsend sticks to his guns and principles and has a decent 6N to rub rebel players' noses in it, or........ a sacking might be inevitable if players look like they are on a go-slow protest during the upcoming campaign.

A good point.

This could grow arms and legs if the squad back Russell - Townsend could be gone before the Ireland game!

[Eejit]

I think there were probably a few of us that thought Toony had run his race after the World Cup debacle and should have fallen on his sword. That said, if it is about tactics issue, Toony is still the coach and I’d Have hoped that the players understood that fact and got on with it. Very disappointing if Russell has indeed got himself sent back to Racing because he’s gotten too big for his boots.

If it is Hairgel and the Meatball this time round I’m keen to see what the pair of them can do in 2020.

[jimbopip]

Dancer Walked

Toonies' call up options? Meatball, Furra Linee or that lad from Harleyqueens whose name no-one can remember.
Doesn't make the heart skip does it?

Here's my, outrageously ill-informed, take on it.

Toonie is a huge advocate of the John Wooden school of coaching. One of Wooden's basic tenets is that a coach who changes his style of play when faced with "better" opponents is one who doesn't believe in what he is doing and that lack of self-belief will transmit itself to the players: ergo he is a poor coach.

Toonie has had two real disasters as Scotland coach; Wales at Cardiff and Ireland in the World Cup. Both times the blame could/should be laid squarely on his doorstep. No arguments there.
Japan in the World Cup was not a total disaster: we were always in the game and with a bit of luck could have won it. However, a blunt assessment would be that the team who held on to the ball and looked for openings patiently beat the team who kicked the ball away if nothing looked on. Coaches choice?
Whatever happened at Twickers it is clear that Dancer left with the belief tat once they abandoned Toonie's kicking game everything improved.

So, here's my take on this week.

The squad turned up for training and there were the usual grumbles that always happen when a team isn't winning consistently. Dancer, being neither shy nor retiring, says something along the lines of "I'll tell him we're not playing that way any more if you'll all back me up." No-one says "Don't do it!" and Dancer gets his Lech Walenska mask out of the cupboard. At the next strategy and tactics meeting the bold Dancer speaks out and.....silence from the cheap seats. Toonie tells him to go home and think about what he just did.

Mind you, being exiled to Paris isn't the hardship Toonie might consider it to be.

Haircut gets injured and it's Meatball and Furra Linee in the 23 for the rest of the tournament. Then we win a Grand Slam.

[bsando]

[NeilyBroon]

Too many egos in camp. This is why VC was so so much better, he earnt the players respect rather than trying to make it all about his tactics. Finn undoubtedly can be a petulant bugger and gets a fair few tactical choices wrong himself but this says a lot about Toonie IF it is indeed tactics related and its not that Finn has joined Howleys betting syndicate

[RDW]

Also, the fact that's a breach of discipline suggests it was more than just a disagreement - surely had to involve a physical altercation or Finn saying something completely out of order.

Like "yer maw"

[jimbopip]

See, Batman leaves and everything goes Dodge City on a Saturday night.

If Mr Wilson had been there the naughty boys would never have dared speak out of turn.

[RDW]

Also, this is the first squad meet without Laidlaw - was he the glue holding everything together?

[NeilyBroon]

Its okay. Hogg is the perfect candidate to keep everybody together. He'll know exactly which players to blame and subsequently b*llock in a very disproportionate manner.

[123456789.]

Simon Zebo has been fairly vocal about this whole thing. One reply from a journalist asked about screenshots. Could be nothing. Also for Zebo it means instead of playing against Ireland, Russell is playing for Racing.

Toonie has had two real disasters as Scotland coach; Wales at Cardiff and Ireland in the World Cup. Both times the blame could/should be laid squarely on his doorstep. No arguments there.
Japan in the World Cup was not a total disaster: we were always in the game and with a bit of luck could have won it. However, a blunt assessment would be that the team who held on to the ball and looked for openings patiently beat the team who kicked the ball away if nothing looked on. Coaches choice?
Whatever happened at Twickers it is clear that Dancer left with the belief tat once they abandoned Toonie's kicking game everything improved.

Completely disagree with you on Japan I'm afraid. Losing to Japan was a disaster. Being in the game against Japan is simply not good enough. The quarter-finals showed us that we were in the weakest group by some distance. Ireland and Japan were some way off New Zealand and South Africa. Scotland were some way off of Ireland. Both Scotland and Ireland had been relatively close to New Zealand and South Africa and England in the 12-24 months before, by the World Cup we were nowhere near. We all know the Irish cannot get their heads around a rugby world cup, and they still pumped us. In terms of Toonie's disasters you can add the French warm up, the performance in Paris last year in the Six Nations last year. The first half against England. So in short, every single team we are about to play he has mucked up against.

However, I do really hope you're right about Duncan Weir winning the lot. Seeing Duncan Weir winning a grand slam would give me exponentially more joy than Finn Russell even before all of this.

[123456789.]

Also, this is the first squad meet without Laidlaw - was he the glue holding everything together?

Either that or Russell was incandescent that Peter Horne wasn't there to make him play better.

[R!skysports]

Well I for one am happy that Hastings will get a run out - he needs to take this time to try and install himself as an International and I actually think having Finn at 10 does not 'overall' benefit the team

He is so inconsistent, I am sure that most of the other players struggle to adapt.

Maybe a creative but steady option is better in the long term - who know

[jimbopip]

Numbers, I said "two REAL disasters" by which I meant not your common or garden Scotland fecc up. Which all the other matches you mentioned were.

We all need cheering up. True story time.
My group of apprentice plumbers trooped in on Monday morning; an hour and a half later, after a good lesson they trooped out. Except one lad I held back for "a little chat". He had been really struggling to concentrate and was even less motivated than usual. As he left the room my next group entered. "What you been smoking then Sir?" they all asked. "Very funny, now sit down." was my reply. But no, they insisted that the room stank of skunk. At which point a colleague came in and said "Bloody hell Jimbo. It smells like you've been on it big time."
I left the room, stood in the corridor and cleared my nostrils. Then went back in. Goodness me!
When senior management arrived they inhaled deeply and asked which group I had had. I told them and said XXX was in that group and was a "bit lacking in focus". He was lassoo-ed and found to have three ready rolled spliffs and a large bag of weed in his pocket.
He was bollocked and told he would be suspended. "Ok so I'm going home now. Can I have my stuff back before I leave?" was his reply.
I taught in that room for the rest of the day: I giggled a lot and was constantly hungry.

[RDW]

Numbers, I said "two REAL disasters" by which I meant not your common or garden Scotland fecc up. Which all the other matches you mentioned were.

We all need cheering up. True story time.
My group of apprentice plumbers trooped in on Monday morning; an hour and a half later, after a good lesson they trooped out. Except one lad I held back for "a little chat". He had been really struggling to concentrate and was even less motivated than usual. As he left the room my next group entered. "What you been smoking then Sir?" they all asked. "Very funny, now sit down." was my reply. But no, they insisted that the room stank of skunk. At which point a colleague came in and said "Bloody hell Jimbo. It smells like you've been on it big time."
I left the room, stood in the corridor and cleared my nostrils. Then went back in. Goodness me!
When senior management arrived they inhaled deeply and asked which group I had had. I told them and said XXX was in that group and was a "bit lacking in focus". He was lassoo-ed and found to have three ready rolled spliffs and a large bag of weed in his pocket.
He was bollocked and told he would be suspended. "Ok so I'm going home now. Can I have my stuff back before I leave?" was his reply.
I taught in that room for the rest of the day: I giggled a lot and was constantly hungry.

I thought you were a retired English teacher??

[Luckless Pedestrian]

STATEMENT | Scotland team spokesperson: “Stand-off Finn Russell will play no further part in preparations for Scotland’s Six Nations opener against Ireland, having been disciplined for a breach of team protocol during the week’s camp in Edinburgh. He has returned to his club."

Is it me, or does this leave open the possibility of Russell starting, just without having trained with the squad?

[Gooseberry]

STATEMENT | Scotland team spokesperson: “Stand-off Finn Russell will play no further part in preparations for Scotland’s Six Nations opener against Ireland, having been disciplined for a breach of team protocol during the week’s camp in Edinburgh. He has returned to his club."

Is it me, or does this leave open the possibility of Russell starting, just without having trained with the squad?

Yeah but how would he know what the tactics were?

[jimbopip]

Numbers, I said "two REAL disasters" by which I meant not your common or garden Scotland fecc up. Which all the other matches you mentioned were.

We all need cheering up. True story time.
My group of apprentice plumbers trooped in on Monday morning; an hour and a half later, after a good lesson they trooped out. Except one lad I held back for "a little chat". He had been really struggling to concentrate and was even less motivated than usual. As he left the room my next group entered. "What you been smoking then Sir?" they all asked. "Very funny, now sit down." was my reply. But no, they insisted that the room stank of skunk. At which point a colleague came in and said "Bloody hell Jimbo. It smells like you've been on it big time."
I left the room, stood in the corridor and cleared my nostrils. Then went back in. Goodness me!
When senior management arrived they inhaled deeply and asked which group I had had. I told them and said XXX was in that group and was a "bit lacking in focus". He was lassoo-ed and found to have three ready rolled spliffs and a large bag of weed in his pocket.
He was bollocked and told he would be suspended. "Ok so I'm going home now. Can I have my stuff back before I leave?" was his reply.
I taught in that room for the rest of the day: I giggled a lot and was constantly hungry.

I thought you were a retired English teacher??

Can't keep away from the classroom. I have been supply teaching for a couple of years now; mainly GCSE Maths at FE colleges since the governments insistence that everyone must achieve a Level 4 means lots of resits for non-academic lads. Also my background of teaching in non-mainstream settings helps. As in, "You've taught murderers and arsonists? You might survive our bricklaying lads."

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