The Covid-19 serious chat thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

Self-isolating, social distancing, locked down thread split.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Had the jab this morning, my wife is mightily pi$$ed off, the man operating the traffic in and out of the car park asked if I was just dropping her off and could I go away and come back in twenty minutes to pick her up.

Bless her, she actually looks a good 10-15 years younger than she actually is, where as with me my face is so battered you haven't got a clue.

Slightly worried about the 12 week wait for jab two though, BMA saying it should be no more than 6 weeks and the WHO saying the same. No tests done on a 12 week gap, so no one knows what the effect is if antibody levels drop below a certain point, a third jab might be necessary.

Also a scientist up in Edinburgh is saying that the likelihood is that Covid will be endemic like the flu and that we will need a jab every year. My arms are feeling like pin cushions already.
Also a scientist up in Edinborou

[navyblueshorts]

Had the jab this morning, my wife is mightily pi$$ed off, the man operating the traffic in and out of the car park asked if I was just dropping her off and could I go away and come back in twenty minutes to pick her up.

Bless her, she actually looks a good 10-15 years younger than she actually is, where as with me my face is so battered you haven't got a clue.

Slightly worried about the 12 week wait for jab two though, BMA saying it should be no more than 6 weeks and the WHO saying the same. No tests done on a 12 week gap, so no one knows what the effect is if antibody levels drop below a certain point, a third jab might be necessary.

Also a scientist up in Edinburgh is saying that the likelihood is that Covid will be endemic like the flu and that we will need a jab every year. My arms are feeling like pin cushions already.
Also a scientist up in Edinborou

Good news.

Wouldn't worry about length of time until jab 2. Data on AZ vaccine, I believe, covers 12 week gap as part of trials and suggests immunity fine. Nothing similar on Pfizer/BioNTech from what I've read, but reasonable to assume similar. This was covered in UKG briefing yesterday - the bigger risk, by far, is if we allow the virus free access to more people, thereby allowing chances of a dangerous mutation to arise. Better if we get more people w/ jab 1 done, especially as jab 1 gives a lot of immunity. Even if catch Covid after jab 1, chances are you'll be far less unwell than w/o jab at all.

Re. vaccinations in general. There's no guarantee any vaccination will raise a sufficient response and no-one is ever tested afterwards to see if they're actually immune. We just assume we are.

They've been openly talking about Covid being w/ humanity in perpetuity for some time now. Will be part of the scene and we'll likely have a new jab each year; just like for influenza.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

In my opinion we need to get a lot tougher with these idiots that insist on organising large parties/raves and the people that attend them. Two this weekend, one in Brum, the other in hackney with hundreds of people attending, obviously a £200 is insufficient to stop them behaving in this entirely selfish and stupid manner.

Perhaps if you add another nought to the £200 and put a three month prison term on the organisers it would deter them.

I have also seen a lot in the press about people booking holidays for this summer, are people getting a little ahead of themselves? We do not know what restrictions will be in place in June - August. Hancock does not help when asked, he said, "I am going to Cornwall", should it not have been, "If restrictions allow I hope to be going to Cornwall". People think that the vaccine, to quote Stanley Johnson is a "get out of jail free card" and you can then do what you will. My understanding is that, you may have a highly increased immunity to the virus, but you can still carry it and therefore pass it on to others.

Chris Witty, is doing his best to tell people that it is not and that you must still follow the "rules", but he doesn't seem to be getting much back up from the politicians. I suppose better the bad news from someone whose livelihood doesn't come as a result of a peoples vote than to become unpopular telling the voters that they cannot have their fun.

[Samo]

A bit of good news as early lab reports suggest the Moderna vaccine is able to fight against the new UK and SA Covid variants. More studies are required to confirm, but its a small silver lining.

[BamBam]

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-astrazeneca-answers-coronavirus-vaccine-supply-cuts/

This is an interesting story. Could mean problems for the UK supply of the Astrazeneca vaccine too

[navyblueshorts]

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-astrazeneca-answers-coronavirus-vaccine-supply-cuts/

This is an interesting story. Could mean problems for the UK supply of the Astrazeneca vaccine too

Yeah. Not a surprise though, this supply chain issue. It's only the politicians promising the skies again and not being honest about the issues surrounding both the manufacture, and distribution, of billions of vaccine doses in a short window of time. AZ etc should just tell them to sod off and that they're doing what they can, as fast as they can.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Boris takes full responsibility for all the governments decisions and or lack of them

USA population Circa 325M deaths 425,000 - 130.7 thousand per million
UK population circa 66.5M deaths 100,000 - 150 thousand per million

We have a worse death rate than the USA and we all know how we have castigated Trump for his handling of the crisis, Boris is worse.

[navyblueshorts]

Boris takes full responsibility for all the governments decisions and or lack of them

USA population Circa 325M  deaths 425,000  - 130.7 thousand per million
UK population circa 66.5M   deaths 100,000  -  150 thousand per million

We have a worse death rate than the USA and we all know how we have castigated Trump for his handling of the crisis, Boris is worse.

Point taken, but the fat lady hasn't sung re. Covid yet and that's just a raw number, which takes no account of any factors (at all) that might be reasons for this. Let's see how others do w/ these new variants and before significant vaccine protections.

FWIW, everyone knows (or should know) what to do, but a significant chunk of the UK population seems to be (almost) uniquely self-centred and has spread this virus around willy-nilly, all in the name of me, me me.

There'll be an enquiry at some point, but I don't even think that'll be worth it (except for Whitehall, NHS etc), because the public have already decided who's to blame for everything, primarily based on pre-existing bias. If an enquiry doesn't support someone's view, it'll just be dismissed as 'fake news'.

I don't envy UKG on this one bit and anyone here who thinks they'd have done a better job is having a laugh. We might have made different mistakes, but I doubt the UK would be in any better position now.

[lostinwales]

Boris takes full responsibility for all the governments decisions and or lack of them

USA population Circa 325M  deaths 425,000  - 130.7 thousand per million
UK population circa 66.5M   deaths 100,000  -  150 thousand per million

We have a worse death rate than the USA and we all know how we have castigated Trump for his handling of the crisis, Boris is worse.

Worst death rate for any country with a population >10m.

Some smaller countries have higher numbers, notably Belgium, Czechia and Slovenia in the EU. There will also be differences in reporting in different countries. The whole death in 28 days from diagnosis thing we use is problematic, although there are alternate stats for everyone where CV19 was on the death certificate, but officially we are 'world leading' for now. I do think we are probably at our lowest point, particularly if the gamble on the single dose works out, whilst the situations in Brazil, Mexico and the USA are still getting worse.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

It is very tricky. There are solid reasons why it could be worse here than in the USA - with population density being a big factor.

We don't know how much better it could have been had the government acted faster and better. Probably not as much as could be hoped given that the virus was almost certainly here before the first warning signs appeared. But we are on an island, and we did lag behind most of Europe so did have hard evidence of what was going to happen before it did.

[BamBam]

I don't envy UKG on this one bit and anyone here who thinks they'd have done a better job is having a laugh. We might have made different mistakes, but I doubt the UK would be in any better position now.

I know I wouldn't have been boasting about shaking hands with COVID patients in March. I might not know anything about pandemic response or governing, but I know what being a Frak idiot looks like

I just don't understand this desperate need to defend the government at all costs. At what point would it be possible that someone else could have done a better job? 20k deaths would have been a "good result" at the start of this, so surely 100k deaths is a shocking result.

Blaming the public when there has been mixed messages all over the shop is just not on, if they wanted to put a strict lockdown in place like other countries have done, they should have done it. Things like sending the kids back to school for 1 day in January are a failure of government, not the public. How many deaths can be linked directly to that 1 day of mixing by kids who are too young to know any better

[navyblueshorts]

I don't envy UKG on this one bit and anyone here who thinks they'd have done a better job is having a laugh. We might have made different mistakes, but I doubt the UK would be in any better position now.

I know I wouldn't have been boasting about shaking hands with COVID patients in March. I might not know anything about pandemic response or governing, but I know what being a Frak idiot looks like

I just don't understand this desperate need to defend the government at all costs. At what point would it be possible that someone else could have done a better job? 20k deaths would have been a "good result" at the start of this, so surely 100k deaths is a shocking result.

Blaming the public when there has been mixed messages all over the shop is just not on, if they wanted to put a strict lockdown in place like other countries have done, they should have done it. Things like sending the kids back to school for 1 day in January are a failure of government, not the public. How many deaths can be linked directly to that 1 day of mixing by kids who are too young to know any better

I don't totally disagree w/ you, but I don't agree either. I'm not 'desperately trying to defend the Government' - I'd do the same whatever shade of Government we had and I'm trying (but failing, it would seem) to get people to consider not rushing to judgements based on, frankly, f-all knowledge. What we're doing here (well, many are) is drawing conclusions based on a paucity of information.

I don't know what I'd be like as PM. If I'd spent a career getting there, would I be looking for positive spin (i.e. shaking hands)? I don't know. I hope not under these circumstances, but I'm not a politician. No living politician in the UK has had to deal w/ a pandemic like this either - of course there'll be **** ups - and the one we had in mind was influenza, not some other pathogen w/ different behaviours.

The 20k deaths 'would be a good result' is being negatively spun by all who want to attack UKG. The point about saying that 20k deaths would be a 'good result', and the way Vallance(?) said it, was the obvious corollary that it was highly likely to be more. In addition, this country being this country, if Vallance had said it'll be 200k+ back in March, he'd have been pilloried and you'd probably have had a go at UKG, now, for that as well.

100k dead is 100k dead, but I don't see the point of frothing at the mouth about it now when I'm not privy to the advice given to UKG throughout and the Minutes of every meeting etc that they've had. This needs careful analysis, not political muck slinging.

Blaming the public (note: I said a significant chunk, not all) is absolutely on. I'm sorry you disagree, but that doesn't alter the fact that so many know bloody damned well that what they're doing is wrong, either in the spirit of the guidance or in actual fact. The fundamentals haven't changed and the guidance at any one time is available on the web w/ amazingly little effort. There's no excuse. None. UKG could have gone all 'China' on us w/ lockdowns, but do you seriously think that was ever a realistic possibility? Here? I would have voted that they'd done something like that, but you have to at least acknowledge that politicians have to take into account the likelihood that such would be adhered to. Given what I can see of too many of the UK public, not likely. We don't have the police numbers either and too many in this country now think obeying laws should take into account likelihood of getting caught (see mobile phone use while driving).

Don't get me wrong, on the face of it there've been mistakes (your schools example being one, Cummings another, not locking borders once we had it 'under control' last Summer, poor track/trace etc), but pretty much everybody is frothing away about numbers of deaths when they can't possibly make an informed judgement.

As I said, people will make their minds up (on the whole) based on their pre-formed political allegiances.

[BamBam]

You have some valid points which I can agree with, but I disagree on your last sentence.

It sounds like you think that anyone criticising the government is doing so solely on the basis of having voted for someone else. I'd much rather they were doing well handling the pandemic than having done so badly that there is nothing else to do but criticise. On the vaccines it seems like they are doing a good job, and I'm all for it. Sooner its over the better, but I can't help but criticise when I see the numerous man sausage ups. I don't want to be locked down for any longer than necessary, show some leadership and do what needs to be done, rather than promise it'll be over by Easter / the Summer / Xmas / Easter like he has been doing.

[navyblueshorts]

Interesting:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55822602

Not good, but interesting.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

It sounds like you think that anyone criticising the government is doing so solely on the basis of having voted for someone else. I'd much rather they were doing well handling the pandemic than having done so badly that there is nothing else to do but criticise.

This is exactly it. It's not a case of trying to find fault, it's a case of there having been several obvious ones, and yet the government can barely bring itself to acknowledge even the slightest mis-step. A little contrition would go a long way. Don't say you've done everything possible to limit the number of deaths when you demonstrably haven't. It's insulting.

The worst thing about it all is that they don't seem to learn from their mistakes, which I guess makes sense if they don't think they've made any.

[navyblueshorts]

This is not it exactly. You actually think the only thing to do is criticise or that a significant proportion that do aren't doing so from a pre-formed position of Tory hate?

Sorry for the flippancy, but clearly all sorted anyhow. Army on the streets and shot at dawn for any curfew breakers during the next one. God, it's so easy. If only they'd asked us first up, what w/ our expertise in epidemiology, virology, behavioural science, gerontology, general health care, economics, logistics etc.
Maybe the buck stops w/ them and, despite the bad hand they're playing from, they should fall on their collective swords. Price of leadership and all that. Not sure it helps that much just now though.

No, it's not rocket science what China did. In fact, it's so bloody obvious. Hang on a minute - France? Nope. Spain? Nope. Germany? Nope. Belgium? Nope. Poland? Nope. Mexico? Nope. Peru? Nope. Argentina? Nope. Colombia? Nope. Italy? Nope. South Africa? Nope. Etc. I wonder why so many didn't effectively use martial law to enforce any lockdowns in those countries?
China is fab; just ask the Uighurs.

I know everyone wants a public admission and flogging, but that won't actually make any difference to the pandemic. SARS-CoV2 doesn't care. Do I want them to come out, now, and say they've made mistakes? I don't give a 4X; I know they have. Contrition? What? Now? Just so some (non-Tories) can feel good? Even if Johnson issued some sort of collective apology, those that basically hate him already wouldn't believe it was genuine anyway, so what would it be for?
What I want is to know that there will be a full and wide-ranging inquiry into what was done, what went wrong, why and what to do to ensure it doesn't happen again. I would then want, and expect, recommendations to be fully implemented. If, after that, there are clear failures (despite contemporaneous knowledge that would have stopped them) of Ministers etc, I would expect them to step down (not that they will, but you never know).

[Luckless Pedestrian]

This is not it exactly. You actually think the only thing to do is criticise or that a significant proportion that do aren't doing so from a pre-formed position of Tory hate?

Sorry for the flippancy, but clearly all sorted anyhow. Army on the streets and shot at dawn for any curfew breakers during the next one. God, it's so easy. If only they'd asked us first up, what w/ our expertise in epidemiology, virology, behavioural science, gerontology, general health care, economics, logistics etc.
Maybe the buck stops w/ them and, despite the bad hand they're playing from, they should fall on their collective swords. Price of leadership and all that. Not sure it helps that much just now though.

What makes the hand this Government's been dealt any worse than the hands dealt to other governments?

[lostinwales]

Italy has an older population. Holland has a higher population density. We have 20miles+ of sea between us and the mainland. The situation should have been handled better. We have done this a number of times now, and there is no way we'll ever know what kind of numbers we would have got in a best case scenario.

There are failures though. I keep on going back to communication so won't type more on that now. But there are a couple more that should be mentioned now.

Track and trace has been a joke. I don't think we have been sold how hard it is to do this when the virus was so widespread in the first place, and yet somehow we have spent a vast amount of money got very little return for something that the experts say is so vital.

September lockdown. Experts wanted it, but we were back to dithering and delaying. Those delays cost lives.

[navyblueshorts]

This is not it exactly. You actually think the only thing to do is criticise or that a significant proportion that do aren't doing so from a pre-formed position of Tory hate?

Sorry for the flippancy, but clearly all sorted anyhow. Army on the streets and shot at dawn for any curfew breakers during the next one. God, it's so easy. If only they'd asked us first up, what w/ our expertise in epidemiology, virology, behavioural science, gerontology, general health care, economics, logistics etc.
Maybe the buck stops w/ them and, despite the bad hand they're playing from, they should fall on their collective swords. Price of leadership and all that. Not sure it helps that much just now though.

What makes the hand this Government's been dealt any worse than the hands dealt to other governments?

That's at least part of the point - we haven't got the info to decide one way or the other. By 'bad hand', I meant things like pre-existing NHS PPE stockpile problems, no extant track and trace, pandemic planning for the wrong pathogen etc. I dunno what other Governments had to deal w/ in their own countries, but just perhaps quite a bit of what's coming out of the woodwork during this pandemic in the UK is evidence of cumulative, collective failure of Governments going back decades.

Don't get me wrong, I think the death toll (and the long term NHS burden due to those who've recovered, but were very ill) isn't anything to cheer about. I'm just not willing to pile on too much cf. other nations supposed successes etc given where we are in this pandemic (i.e. it's not over and others may yet find new variants outstripping vaccines etc) and until we know a little more about the circumstances surrounding what happened, when and why.

[navyblueshorts]

Italy has an older population. Holland has a higher population density. We have 20miles+ of sea between us and the mainland. The situation should have been handled better. We have done this a number of times now, and there is no way we'll ever know what kind of numbers we would have got in a best case scenario.

There are failures though. I keep on going back to communication so won't type more on that now. But there are a couple more that should be mentioned now.

Track and trace has been a joke. I don't think we have been sold how hard it is to do this when the virus was so widespread in the first place, and yet somehow we have spent a vast amount of money got very little return for something that the experts say is so vital.

September lockdown. Experts wanted it, but we were back to dithering and delaying. Those delays cost lives.

No, we won't, but it won't stop people throwing blame around.

I agree w/ a lot of what you say, but I don't suppose anyone in UKG got up on any given morning and thought "I'm knowingly going to make a decision that'll kill more people this morning.".

Was going to say I don't know why we post here as no-one really changes their opinions, but I guess it lets us have a rant and a vent. Probably good for our mental health, or something.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

This is not it exactly. You actually think the only thing to do is criticise or that a significant proportion that do aren't doing so from a pre-formed position of Tory hate?

Sorry for the flippancy, but clearly all sorted anyhow. Army on the streets and shot at dawn for any curfew breakers during the next one. God, it's so easy. If only they'd asked us first up, what w/ our expertise in epidemiology, virology, behavioural science, gerontology, general health care, economics, logistics etc.
Maybe the buck stops w/ them and, despite the bad hand they're playing from, they should fall on their collective swords. Price of leadership and all that. Not sure it helps that much just now though.

What makes the hand this Government's been dealt any worse than the hands dealt to other governments?

That's at least part of the point - we haven't got the info to decide one way or the other. By 'bad hand', I meant things like pre-existing NHS PPE stockpile problems, no extant track and trace, pandemic planning for the wrong pathogen etc. I dunno what other Governments had to deal w/ in their own countries, but just perhaps quite a bit of what's coming out of the woodwork during this pandemic in the UK is evidence of cumulative, collective failure of Governments going back decades.

Don't get me wrong, I think the death toll (and the long term NHS burden due to those who've recovered, but were very ill) isn't anything to cheer about. I'm just not willing to pile on too much cf. other nations supposed successes etc given where we are in this pandemic (i.e. it's not over and others may yet find new variants outstripping vaccines etc) and until we know a little more about the circumstances surrounding what happened, when and why.

That's fair enough.

[lostinwales]

Never underestimate the need to rant and vent...

Of course the government doesn't want to kill people. What I would say is that with Johnson's reputation it is not surprising that the government seems to have always taken a too optimistic view on what is going to happen next, with minimal foresight.

I do think that in general just calling for Johnson's head isn't going to fix anything. (We might end up with Gove as PM). and in going forward we have to accept the situation as it is now, not what would have happened had we had more competent people at the helm.

Also worth remembering that there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are vaccines, even if it is going to take a year to vaccinate everyone. In general the vaccination program is working well, although we'll have to wait and see if the delay between doses will work.

There doesn't seem to be the issues with testing that there were. I certainly don't see the horror stories of people needing to travel 40 miles for a test any more.

The government seems to be properly committed to keeping the lockdown running this time around. Infection rates are, as a consequence, falling (although they had a long way to fall). Deaths as ever lag behind infection rates but those too should start dropping soon. We'll have to see how well they look after the furloughed and the self employed,

[jimbopip]

This is not it exactly. You actually think the only thing to do is criticise or that a significant proportion that do aren't doing so from a pre-formed position of Tory hate?

Sorry for the flippancy, but clearly all sorted anyhow. Army on the streets and shot at dawn for any curfew breakers during the next one. God, it's so easy. If only they'd asked us first up, what w/ our expertise in epidemiology, virology, behavioural science, gerontology, general health care, economics, logistics etc.
Maybe the buck stops w/ them and, despite the bad hand they're playing from, they should fall on their collective swords. Price of leadership and all that. Not sure it helps that much just now though.

What makes the hand this Government's been dealt any worse than the hands dealt to other governments?

That's at least part of the point - we haven't got the info to decide one way or the other. By 'bad hand', I meant things like pre-existing NHS PPE stockpile problems, no extant track and trace, pandemic planning for the wrong pathogen etc. I dunno what other Governments had to deal w/ in their own countries, but just perhaps quite a bit of what's coming out of the woodwork during this pandemic in the UK is evidence of cumulative, collective failure of Governments going back decades.Mr Shorts, I always try to take you at face value and give you the benefit that you are attempting to be fair and even handed. However, to try to excuse this government because they inhereted a rancid pile of pooh....Inherited it from whom? From themselves actually. NHS PPE stockpiling problems? Who closed the department responsible for purchasing this in order to focus all available manpower on delivering Brexit by 1st January? Problems with pandemic planning? Who failed to implement the detailed recommendations from the last exercise? No Track and Trace? Do you honestly think PHE and the armed forces couldn't have done a better job than Dido Harding, Randox and yon accountancy firm? really?

Don't get me wrong, I think the death toll (and the long term NHS burden due to those who've recovered, but were very ill) isn't anything to cheer about. I'm just not willing to pile on too much cf. other nations supposed successes etc given where we are in this pandemic (i.e. it's not over and others may yet find new variants outstripping vaccines etc) and until we know a little more about the circumstances surrounding what happened, when and why.

Here's my real gripe today; the amount of traffic on our roads is DOUBLE what it was during the first lockdown. You know the one where nobody went to work. We have double the number of people in hospital, 25% of all deaths have occurred since January 2nd and yet we're still being told "Work from home if you can, otherwise go to work." If that isn't culpable incompetence I don't know what is.

[navyblueshorts]

This is not it exactly. You actually think the only thing to do is criticise or that a significant proportion that do aren't doing so from a pre-formed position of Tory hate?

Sorry for the flippancy, but clearly all sorted anyhow. Army on the streets and shot at dawn for any curfew breakers during the next one. God, it's so easy. If only they'd asked us first up, what w/ our expertise in epidemiology, virology, behavioural science, gerontology, general health care, economics, logistics etc.
Maybe the buck stops w/ them and, despite the bad hand they're playing from, they should fall on their collective swords. Price of leadership and all that. Not sure it helps that much just now though.

What makes the hand this Government's been dealt any worse than the hands dealt to other governments?

That's at least part of the point - we haven't got the info to decide one way or the other. By 'bad hand', I meant things like pre-existing NHS PPE stockpile problems, no extant track and trace, pandemic planning for the wrong pathogen etc. I dunno what other Governments had to deal w/ in their own countries, but just perhaps quite a bit of what's coming out of the woodwork during this pandemic in the UK is evidence of cumulative, collective failure of Governments going back decades.Mr Shorts, I always try to take you at face value and give you the benefit that you are attempting to be fair and even handed. However, to try to excuse this government because they inhereted a rancid pile of pooh....Inherited it from whom? From themselves actually. NHS PPE stockpiling problems? Who closed the department responsible for purchasing this in order to focus all available manpower on delivering Brexit by 1st January? Problems with pandemic planning? Who failed to implement the detailed recommendations from the last  exercise? No Track and Trace? Do you honestly think PHE and the armed forces couldn't have done a better job than Dido Harding, Randox and yon accountancy firm? really?

Don't get me wrong, I think the death toll (and the long term NHS burden due to those who've recovered, but were very ill) isn't anything to cheer about. I'm just not willing to pile on too much cf. other nations supposed successes etc given where we are in this pandemic (i.e. it's not over and others may yet find new variants outstripping vaccines etc) and until we know a little more about the circumstances surrounding what happened, when and why.

Here's my real gripe today; the amount of traffic on our roads is DOUBLE what it was during the first lockdown. You know the one where nobody went to work. We have double the number of people in hospital, 25% of all deaths have occurred since January 2nd and yet we're still being told "Work from home if you can, otherwise go to work." If that isn't culpable incompetence I don't know what is.

You're deliberately missing the point and/or extrapolating. My point about a 'bad hand' has **** all to do w/ Dido Harding etc as I was talking about T&T before this pandemic started as you'd have been well aware of if you hadn't let your blood boil. PPE stockpiles are chuff all to do w/ this Government and no, I don't care (in context of this argument) if a previous Tory one is to blame - my comment was, again, about the hand this Government had to play at the start of this outbreak. No idea on whether UK armed forces would have done a better job, but don't assume they're perfect just because they aren't politicians - Tobruk, the Somme etc. Perfect, eh? Whatever.

Re. traffic. I agree, but could it be that loads of the traffic on the roads is there because people who know all too ****ing well that they shouldn't be out, are out and about? Of course, the elevated traffic must be UKG's fault. How stupid of me. That's me told.

Work from home. Don't if you can't (but please acknowledge that any workplace is required to be so-called 'covid secure') or you're a critical worker.

What you're suggesting is we should go all 'China'. Again, well stone me; it's all so obvious.

Round and round in circles we go. Talk amongst yourselves.

[BamBam]

Poor little Boris, all would have been fine if the big boys in the previous government hadn’t taken all the PPE sweeties away, and all would have been fine if the big boys from the other school had set up a Test and Trace system for him, and all would have been fine if those pesky kids had listened to what he said!

[jimbopip]

BamBam

Shorts I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Many members of this government served in the previous administration(s) so in effect they were the ones dealing the hand this government has found itself having to play.
There is a narrative being constructed that goes, "Poor old Boris having to deal with such a horrid pandemic, still in the circumstances he did the best he could." which in effect absolves them of all responsibility. This is a lie from start to finish. A party cannot be in government for more than a decade and then claim that the complete Mother Hubbard scenario had nothing to do with them.
As for right now, not last year but today... our lock down is not as strict as the first lockdown was yet we are facing new strains of the virus which are much more transmissable. This makes no sense to me. New infections are falling butvery, very slowly. Surely a more rigorous lockdown would be more effective?
I think you're going out of your way to buy into the "Poor Boris, how unlucky" narrative and that is s fallacious as the "they're Tories so their lying scum" narrative.
This pandemic has been worse than it could have been mainly because of our government's incompetence and dishonesty.

[dummy_half]

I note this discussion started with comparison between the UK and US death rate. My one comment is that at least BoJo has tried to do the best he can under the circumstances*, whereas Trump frequently undermined the response for a political angle.

* Undoubtedly imperfectly. Frequently actions being too little and too late, or with lifting of controls too early - in trying to balance the needs of public health against the needs of the economy, rather than getting the best of both worlds, we've ended up with something approaching the worst. Compare with NZ or Aus (and I know our starting position wasn't as advantageous as theirs) where a stringent early lockdown has allowed greater opening up of the economy, including the sport and entertainment industries, even well before the effective roll-out of a vaccine programme.

The new, more infectious variant is in part bad luck, but the relatively high number of cases in the population increased the likelihood of such a mutation.

Track and trace was a farce, but vaccine development and vaccine roll-out have both been cases where Britain has been at the fore-front, so the Government have done some things reasonably well.

[dummy_half]

Oh, and I should have mentioned that today my wife's aunt died - she'll be listed as a Covid death, although it's a little more complicated: she had terminal lung cancer, but was doing OK with treatment until developing a chest infection (bacterial, so not Covid) a couple of weeks ago and being hospitalised. On arrival in hospital she was negative for Covid but tested positive about a week later, so within 28 days of dying.

Hard to know if her death was caused by or brought forward significantly by contracting Covid, as it may well have been the bacterial infection on top of the cancer / cancer treatments that was the ultimate cause.

[GSC]

The biggest failing to me is in the messaging and controlling of the public. Boris always over promises and ends up having to walk it back when the virus demands stricter controls, whereas I feel people would be more cooperative if it was detailed out to them why strict controls are necessary.

[dummy_half]

GSC
The pre-Christmas changes in guidance were a case in point for this - it was obvious back at the start of autumn that there was a high likelihood that gatherings at Christmas would be seriously restricted, but the Government and the associated media were talking about 'saving Christmas' right up to the middle of December, meaning people had made plans that had to be changed, rather than starting from the position that there would not be family gatherings.

[navyblueshorts]

Poor little Boris, all would have been fine if the big boys in the previous government hadn’t taken all the PPE sweeties away, and all would have been fine if the big boys from the other school had set up a Test and Trace system for him, and all would have been fine if those pesky kids had listened to what he said!

BamBam

Shorts I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Many members of this government served in the previous administration(s) so in effect they were the ones dealing the hand this government has found itself having to play.
There is a narrative being constructed that goes, "Poor old Boris having to deal with such a horrid pandemic, still in the circumstances he did the best he could." which in effect absolves them of all responsibility. This is a lie from start to finish. A party cannot be in government for more than a decade and then claim that the complete Mother Hubbard scenario had nothing to do with them.
As for right now, not last year but today... our lock down is not as strict as the first lockdown was yet we are facing new strains of the virus which are much more transmissable. This makes no sense to me. New infections are falling butvery, very slowly. Surely a more rigorous lockdown would be more effective?
I think you're going out of your way to buy into the "Poor Boris, how unlucky" narrative and that is s fallacious as the "they're Tories so their lying scum" narrative.
This pandemic has been worse than it could have been mainly because of our government's incompetence and dishonesty.

I would respond, but nah. Done w/ this.

[navyblueshorts]

More for us, I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55839885

Is this the first Brexit dividend? Got to be one somewhere...

[Pr4wn]

More for us, I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55839885

Is this the first Brexit dividend? Got to be one somewhere...

Not if this happens: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/28/belgium-launches-investigation-of-astrazeneca-vaccine-plant

[lostinwales]

Things the gov could have done better

https://twitter.com/i/status/1354129280867979264

[BamBam]

Lost, didn’t you know she once tweeted something critical about Boris in 2014? Automatically means everything she says now is discredited as hardline labour activist speak

[Soul Requiem]

Well she is an actual member of the labour party and a former activist for them so there is that.

[Duty281]

More for us, I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55839885

Is this the first Brexit dividend? Got to be one somewhere...

Issues with European production so the EU are demanding stock be diverted from the UK. As usual the EU has proven itself to be sclerotic and overly-bureaucratic, thank goodness we're out.

Vaccine rollout is one area where the UK government can be justifiably proud of their efforts.

[Pr4wn]

Well she is an actual member of the labour party and a former activist for them so there is that.

Does that make the objective facts she stated wrong?

[NeilyBroon]

Hi guys,

Few posts been reported from here. Covid is a bit of a sore topic for everyone whatever walk of life you are from so if you want to discuss it please just keep it civil. 606 is a great place for friendly debate, let's keep it that way.

Thanks

[Duty281]

More for us, I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55839885

Is this the first Brexit dividend? Got to be one somewhere...

Issues with European production so the EU are demanding stock be diverted from the UK. As usual the EU has proven itself to be sclerotic and overly-bureaucratic, thank goodness we're out.

Vaccine rollout is one area where the UK government can be justifiably proud of their efforts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55850352

More excellent news.

"A new coronavirus vaccine has been shown to be 89.3% effective in large-scale UK trials.

The Novavax jab is the first to show it is effective against the new variant of the virus discovered in the UK, the BBC's medical editor Fergus Walsh said.

The PM welcomed the "good news" and said the UK's medicines regulator would now assess the vaccine.

The UK has secured 60 million doses of the jab, which will be made in Stockton-on-Tees.

The doses are expected to be delivered in the second half of this year, if approved for use by the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), the government said.

The UK has so far approved three coronavirus vaccines for emergency use - one from Oxford University and AstraZeneca, another by Pfizer and BioNTech, and a third from drug firm Moderna."

[JDizzle]

The only downside to the new jab is that a trial in SA showed it may be only 50% effective against the SA strain of the virus. Adding this to the lab data from the Moderna and Pfizer jabs, it is looking more and more likely that a booster jab will be needed. But to where we were a few months ago, still great news

[BamBam]

Well she is an actual member of the labour party and a former activist for them so there is that.

Does that make the objective facts she stated wrong?

[lostinwales]

Well she is an actual member of the labour party and a former activist for them so there is that.

Does that make the objective facts she stated wrong?

Leaver logic - experts are not leavers therefore you cannot trust anything they say.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

More for us, I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55839885

Is this the first Brexit dividend? Got to be one somewhere...

Issues with European production so the EU are demanding stock be diverted from the UK. As usual the EU has proven itself to be sclerotic and overly-bureaucratic, thank goodness we're out.

Vaccine rollout is one area where the UK government can be justifiably proud of their efforts.

There's so much of this story that we can't know without seeing the respective contracts, but on the face of it, if you've committed to supplying multiple parties, don't you have an obligation to honour all of them? I know we put our order in first, I get that, but surely that's not the only consideration.

[GSC]

I think I read it basically came down to what the "primary" sites of production are in the contract, the EU considers the affected plants secondary, and the UK plants primary so any shortfall in the EU plants should be made up in the UK plants.

No issue with sharing the supply, hoarding the vaccine accomplishes little, but some the rhetoric from the EU about closing their borders to vaccine export feels a bit off to me while they demand it from another source. Particularly given they aren't blameless in the delays.

[Pr4wn]

I think it's descended into tit for tat, unfortunately. UK becomes the only developed country in the world not to give full diplomatic status to their ambassador, so they feel they have to do stuff like this.

Not saying it's the right thing, of course, but the UK hasn't exactly fostered a culture of friendliness under this government.

[GSC]

I agree, and I think calmer heads in the EU have moved in days since. Seems like the usual political ass covering either way

[Duty281]

Hugely embarrassing day for the EU as they triggered a clause which would have instigated a hard border on the island of Ireland, only to backtrack a few hours later.

As well as the Irish, the EU have appeared to have upset the World Health Organisation, after implementing export controls on vaccines made in the EU bloc. Many national governments within the EU are also disgruntled at how the European Commission have handled the vaccine dilemma, especially with regards to slow negotiation of vaccine purchases, and delays in approval and delivery.

[Duty281]

More for us, I guess:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55839885

Is this the first Brexit dividend? Got to be one somewhere...

Issues with European production so the EU are demanding stock be diverted from the UK. As usual the EU has proven itself to be sclerotic and overly-bureaucratic, thank goodness we're out.

Vaccine rollout is one area where the UK government can be justifiably proud of their efforts.

There's so much of this story that we can't know without seeing the respective contracts, but on the face of it, if you've committed to supplying multiple parties, don't you have an obligation to honour all of them? I know we put our order in first, I get that, but surely that's not the only consideration.

According to AstraZeneca, the contract they have with the UK stipulates that they must fulfil the UK's entire order of vaccines before they can send vaccines made in the UK abroad.

[jimbopip]

Here's my real gripe today; the amount of traffic on our roads is DOUBLE what it was during the first lockdown. You know the one where nobody went to work. We have double the number of people in hospital, 25% of all deaths have occurred since January 2nd and yet we're still being told "Work from home if you can, otherwise go to work." If that isn't culpable incompetence I don't know what is. said Jimbo.


You're deliberately missing the point and/or extrapolating. My point about a 'bad hand' has **** all to do w/ Dido Harding etc as I was talking about T&T before this pandemic started as you'd have been well aware of if you hadn't let your blood boil. PPE stockpiles are chuff all to do w/ this Government and no, I don't care (in context of this argument) if a previous Tory one is to blame - my comment was, again, about the hand this Government had to play at the start of this outbreak. No idea on whether UK armed forces would have done a better job, but don't assume they're perfect just because they aren't politicians - Tobruk, the Somme etc. Perfect, eh? Whatever. Said Navy Blue Shorts (I'm doing this because I fecced up the quote function, again.)

Re. traffic. I agree, but could it be that loads of the traffic on the roads is there because people who know all too ****ing well that they shouldn't be out, are out and about? Of course, the elevated traffic must be UKG's fault. How stupid of me. That's me told.

Work from home. Don't if you can't (but please acknowledge that any workplace is required to be so-called 'covid secure') or you're a critical worker. Shorts again


Re the amount of people out and about; this is an interesting read...

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/28/public-uk-covid-rules-ministers

[GSC]

Don't really have the willpower to dissect all the arguments but hoarding vaccines accomplishes very little whether it's here or in the EU. Rather than trying to shift blame around, if there's a shortfall let's see what the best approach is to ensure vulnerable people across the world get access

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