Should the top two English leagues be merged?

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You wouldnt want too much change in a league of 10. But then all you've made is assumptions. You're spelling out your case and you want the dice to fall.your way. The bigger more successful league is going to dictate anything like this. You've said yourself the pro 14 is failing the Welsh are not in a position  of strength. Begs the question would you really want to join when you see what the real world option was.

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

They're also one of the clubs who have requested even if they were to win the league they would turn down the chance to go to the prem.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You wouldnt want too much change in a league of 10. But then all you've made is assumptions. You're spelling out your case and you want the dice to fall.your way. The bigger more successful league is going to dictate anything like this. You've said yourself the pro 14 is failing the Welsh are not in a position  of strength. Begs the question would you really want to join when you see what the real world option was.

The question you've begged is answered by CVC.

2 down, 2 up increases the value of both competitions and CVC will want valuable competitions.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

They're also one of the clubs who have requested even if they were to win the league they would turn down the chance to go to the prem.

Which is the point I made about English rugby having too few teams.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
You wouldnt want too much change in a league of 10. But then all you've made is assumptions. You're spelling out your case and you want the dice to fall.your way. The bigger more successful league is going to dictate anything like this. You've said yourself the pro 14 is failing the Welsh are not in a position  of strength. Begs the question would you really want to join when you see what the real world option was.

The question you've begged is answered by CVC.

2 down, 2 up increases the value of both competitions and CVC will want valuable competitions.

Why would the English want that? They're going through the process to ring fence.

PhilBB wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Sorry, maybe I got my wires crossed, when you said rugby should be more like the NFL I thought you meant adopting their processes. We already have a salary cap (of sorts) although I do agree that the smaller clubs or clubs without a sugar daddy do struggle to even meet it.

Still not convinced what a conference structure brings though - maybe go to two divisions with a couple of Championship teams and spread the TV money across both - but I can't see the turkeys voting for Christmas on that one. English rugby does need a pro team in the North though, firstly as a presence and secondly to stop Rugby League taking all the best prospects.

The Academy area for the rugby league heartland is already in place, isn't it? So I'm not sure it 'needs' a professional team to stop that from happening.

My point on conferences is solely that the NFL model hasn't been tried.

My club is stuck in a garbage competition that nominally has 'conferences'. It's utterly abysmal.

Here you go "beers". Here's an example of something that you've clearly missed, hence you're struggling to follow the basic logic.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

They're also one of the clubs who have requested even if they were to win the league they would turn down the chance to go to the prem.

Which is the point I made about English rugby having too few teams.

What do you mean? Doncaster still exist.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

I didn't miss it at all. It's so ridiculous it's not worth responding to.

You're a 'no true Scotsman' about conferences, apparently, where the conference systems in Europe and the SH don't count because they haven't worked for your specific Welsh region.

You seem delusional, living in a fantasy land, oblivious about the difference between theory and practice.

Why are you warping a discussion about England to include your own myopic delusions about your Welsh region? England should do what is best for England, obviously, and that doesn't mean killing the best competition structure in club rugby for the sake of including Doncaster and Jersey. I have no idea why you're even talking about Wales tbh. As I said, you're incoherent and nonsenical.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They're not. The clubs will still be in charge. Someone was banging on about cvc wanting a british and irish league the other day. Just slightly less appealing than than an english and welsh.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:I'll reiterate my point: the conference system has been a disaster in rugby whether that's Super Rugby or the Pro14. It only rewards the small pool of 'winners' - in this case NZ and Ireland. Everyone else has suffered: Argentina saw their national team become a laughing stock and their test players were earning less money than they were prior to the Jaguares. Australian rugby has gone down the pan and is circling the drain. Welsh rugby has dropped off a cliff and along with Scotland they are competing against the Irish who are not only in a tax haven in comparison to the UK but are competing against union-ran provinces that have completely wrapped up the league for their own continued success (most notably Leinster's, with particular focus on Europe). South Africa have seen revenues fall and their own players have vanished overseas, leaving room for politics to come surging back in and do its best to cripple the Boks. The Japanese saw that Super Rugby was doing very little for it and rightly left once they had gained the experience they needed from the Sunwolves: surprise, surprise, their own domestic league is now more attractive than Super Rugby.

Conference rugby doesn't work.

England would be stupid to kill their own league system out of blind trust of hedge fund money.

I feel like rugby is deliberately throwing itself off a cliff while pretending someone is down below waiting to soften the fall. It's very odd and comes from a desperation for money in order to keep and attract outside investment as well as provide a world class salary for rugby players who might otherwise be tempted by other pro sports. On the other hand, it's also just sheer incompetence by those running the game, which can be forgiven in the circumstances as rugby is lurching in to true professionalism with no small amount of damage done on the way.

Hes talking leagues. Ie the aviva prem and the championship clubs with the welsh teams in it.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Hes talking leagues. Ie the aviva prem and the championship clubs with the welsh teams in it.

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

Before we do that, do you now accept that your previous claims over salary caps was incorrect?

PhilBB wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:I'll reiterate my point: the conference system has been a disaster in rugby whether that's Super Rugby or the Pro14. It only rewards the small pool of 'winners' - in this case NZ and Ireland. Everyone else has suffered: Argentina saw their national team become a laughing stock and their test players were earning less money than they were prior to the Jaguares. Australian rugby has gone down the pan and is circling the drain. Welsh rugby has dropped off a cliff and along with Scotland they are competing against the Irish who are not only in a tax haven in comparison to the UK but are competing against union-ran provinces that have completely wrapped up the league for their own continued success (most notably Leinster's, with particular focus on Europe). South Africa have seen revenues fall and their own players have vanished overseas, leaving room for politics to come surging back in and do its best to cripple the Boks. The Japanese saw that Super Rugby was doing very little for it and rightly left once they had gained the experience they needed from the Sunwolves: surprise, surprise, their own domestic league is now more attractive than Super Rugby.

Conference rugby doesn't work.

England would be stupid to kill their own league system out of blind trust of hedge fund money.

I feel like rugby is deliberately throwing itself off a cliff while pretending someone is down below waiting to soften the fall. It's very odd and comes from a desperation for money in order to keep and attract outside investment as well as provide a world class salary for rugby players who might otherwise be tempted by other pro sports. On the other hand, it's also just sheer incompetence by those running the game, which can be forgiven in the circumstances as rugby is lurching in to true professionalism with no small amount of damage done on the way.

Would you agree that the NFL style conference has yet to be tried, however?

On your point about the English league system - nobody is suggesting "killing" it so I'm not sure why you chose that word. But, yes, professional sport has a desperation for money. It's kind of the point of professional sport.

PhilBB wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

I didn't miss it at all. It's so ridiculous it's not worth responding to.

You're a 'no true Scotsman' about conferences, apparently, where the conference systems in Europe and the SH don't count because they haven't worked for your specific Welsh region.

You seem delusional, living in a fantasy land, oblivious about the difference between theory and practice.

Why are you warping a discussion about England to include your own myopic delusions about your Welsh region? England should do what is best for England, obviously, and that doesn't mean killing the best competition structure in club rugby for the sake of including Doncaster and Jersey. I have no idea why you're even talking about Wales tbh. As I said, you're incoherent and nonsenical.

Ok, no worries. I can see that following a train of thought results in you writing that kind of post.

PhilBB wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Hes talking leagues. Ie the aviva prem and the championship clubs with the welsh teams in it.

I know but that's not the topic. You should stop giving him oxygen, he's not making a jot of sense.

Irish Londoner wrote:

Fair enough outdated information - I gather that the WRU now pays the clubs rather than the players?

rugby racing and beer wrote:
No. Super Rugby is clearly as close to the NFL as rugby could ever get. No single country has the resources to have an internal competition like the NFL. Not even England. The only viable option for a NFL-style competition is multinational and cross border competitions, like the Heineken Cup. That is not what is being discussed here we are discussing the idea of England having a conference system. Rotherham are not the Baltimore Ravens. Super Rugby failed everyone apart from NZ and even then it's failed them and they're bending over backwards to try to find a commercial replacement for what has been lost. Stong arming Australia didn't work so it's not looking good for them, they'll probably have to lose some money from somewhere, likely the NPC.

A conference system 'kills' a pyramid league. I would have thought having banged on about Wales in an England thread for long enough you would understand this well enough but perhaps you have no idea what you're talking about there either. Go and talk to Pontypridd fans how they feel about regional rugby and whether it's killed their club or not. Then do the same for Celtic Warriors or the Borders or Western Force. Ask Coventry fans, or Rotherham fans, or even Leeds/Yorkshire fans if they think their clubs are the same level of 'dead' as the aforementioned.

You're living in a fantasy world, Phil. And no, desperation for money is not a good thing, in sport or otherwise. Perhaps this is another thing you don't understand.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are ndcs available to help the likes of Gloucester sign welsh players? If so probably no issues but would have to be included within a cap.

rugby racing and beer wrote:
You need to read what you're actually writing, Phil. You're not making sense.

Brendan wrote:PhillBB as history has shown more money for Welsh teams doesn't make them always better.

Biggest Rugby Club in the UK in terms of income and fans not playing in the Premership is Ulster.  They would be well placed to do well in the Premership if not hamstrung by the IRFU.  They and Glasgow have been much more consistent in terms of fans and sustained performance than anything the Welsh have done.  Scarlets had their two year flash in the pan.

Currently the 4 most stable and highest standard teams in the UK not in the Premership is Glasgow, Ulster, Edinburgh and Scarlets.

Ospreys almost went bust
Dragons had to be emergency purchased by the WRU
Blues asked the WRU if they wanted to agreed some financial help.

I also don't think the WRU would sign up to PRL terms and conditions for Union subsidies.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are ndcs available to help the likes of Gloucester sign welsh players? If so probably no issues but would have to be included within a cap.

There are no NDCs any longer.

Please stop underlining, with each post, that you know next to nothing about Welsh rugby.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another stupid question as I obviously need to build on my knowledge as you've said. Come across a bbc article on covid and theres a throwaway line say 'under a banding system introduced last year, the wru pays 80% of the salaries of the 38 top ranked players, with the players' regions contributing the remaining 20%'. That's from 8th april.

Is that correct?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another stupid question as I obviously need to build on my knowledge as you've said. Come across a bbc article on covid and theres a throwaway line say 'under a banding system introduced last year, the wru pays 80% of the salaries of the 38 top ranked players, with the players' regions contributing the remaining 20%'. That's from 8th april.

Is that correct?

It's the payment system similar to the EPS.

The players are contracted to the clubs but the union contributes, as part of its payments, 80% of those wages. Other payments include academy work, limiting non-Welsh players and community work, in line with how the RFU pays its supply chain.

Sorry that it didn't work out as you'd hoped.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another stupid question as I obviously need to build on my knowledge as you've said. Come across a bbc article on covid and theres a throwaway line say 'under a banding system introduced last year, the wru pays 80% of the salaries of the 38 top ranked players, with the players' regions contributing the remaining 20%'. That's from 8th april.

Is that correct?

It's the payment system similar to the EPS.

The players are contracted to the clubs but the union contributes, as part of its payments, 80% of those wages. Other payments include academy work, limiting non-Welsh players and community work, in line with how the RFU pays its supply chain.

Sorry that it didn't work out as you'd hoped.

Brendan wrote:PhillBB the thing that blows a hole in your argument is that the PRL must do everything by unanimous vote.  If an anglowelsh league or B&I League were to happen in order to get Sarries, Bath and Bristol on side you would need to get rid of the cap.  The IRFU would never agree to a cap.

In regards  money Ulster and Leinster are held back by the IRFU and could increase funding.  Munster as large debts so can't spend the same (though they still can afford two WC winners)

Back in the day Welsh teams were the most sought after teams for the English.  Now only Scarlets hold any pull while Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow are all bigger pulls for English teams than the other 3 Welsh teams.

Brendan wrote:

I think you all find the EPS don't pay 80% of player wages but pays a set figure to the league who give the same amount to each club.  If the RFU did pay 80% of the wages then Sarries would be well under the cap.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So it's true. Are those 80% wages included or excluded from wag bill figures for the club? and are those wage payments available (or would they be available) to English clubs signing Welsh players?

Brendan wrote:PhillBB the thing that blows a hole in your argument is that the PRL must do everything by unanimous vote.  If an anglowelsh league or B&I League were to happen in order to get Sarries, Bath and Bristol on side you would need to get rid of the cap.  The IRFU would never agree to a cap.

In regards  money Ulster and Leinster are held back by the IRFU and could increase funding.  Munster as large debts so can't spend the same (though they still can afford two WC winners)

Back in the day Welsh teams were the most sought after teams for the English.  Now only Scarlets hold any pull while Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow are all bigger pulls for English teams than the other 3 Welsh teams.

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Quite true, and still the talk of a joint league would spell a fall in revenue for Europe so money becomes a factor again. and loss of power by English clubs.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

I've already explained that twice. Would you like for me to do it again or would it better for you to interact with the posts in which the workings out are shown to you?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Quite true, and still the talk of a joint league would spell a fall in revenue for Europe so money becomes a factor again. and loss of power by English clubs.

Why would it do that?

Does the existence of the PrO League cause a fall in revenue for "Europe"?

Please explain

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

I've already explained that twice. Would you like for me to do it again or would it better for you to interact with the posts in which the workings out are shown to you?

From your explanation you seem to suggest the BBC are incorrect? They've posted that same thing twice this year as far as I've seen, once in April and then again in June. Just seems odd that they haven't corrected it if it was incorrect. have to ask where you've seen your version?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Quite true, and still the talk of a joint league would spell a fall in revenue for Europe so money becomes a factor again. and loss of power by English clubs.

Why would it do that?

Does the existence of the PrO League cause a fall in revenue for "Europe"?

Please explain

Normally you have 3 leagues coming together for a comp, next thing you only have 2 and reduced teams. its going to have less glamour as it's less of a new comp and more a new league plus the French.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to the BBC article it says the WRU pay 80% of the top ranked 38 players wages; is that not correct?

I've already explained that twice. Would you like for me to do it again or would it better for you to interact with the posts in which the workings out are shown to you?

From your explanation you seem to suggest the BBC are incorrect? They've posted that same thing twice this year as far as I've seen, once in April and then again in June. Just seems odd that they haven't corrected it if it was incorrect. have to ask where you've seen your version?

It's only 'incorrect' if you read it in a certain way. Here's a piece you might enjoy, however, as it gives the clarification of who holds the contracts and how the payments work out, exactly in line with how I explained it above. Sorry

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugbys-elite-38-players-18763107

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No need to apologise, thanks for that. It comfirms that the WRU pay 80% of salaries of the top 38 ranked players. That's going to cause issues I'd have thought.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

No need to apologise, thanks for that. It comfirms that the WRU pay 80% of salaries of the top 38 ranked players. That's going to cause issues I'd have thought.

No, it doesn't confirm that at all. It notes "contributes"

It even includes this, for the difficult of understanding, "The 38 are all home-based and they remain contracted to the regions"

And this, for the even more difficult of understanding, "The 80 per cent contribution from the Union makes up tier one of the overall pot of money available for the professional game"

You know, just as I explained above.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Absolutely. Tat would have to stop or be extended to other clubs in the league like the Leinsters or Exeters I'd imagine. gets messy pretty quickly.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:PhillBB the thing that blows a hole in your argument is that the PRL must do everything by unanimous vote.  If an anglowelsh league or B&I League were to happen in order to get Sarries, Bath and Bristol on side you would need to get rid of the cap.  The IRFU would never agree to a cap.

In regards  money Ulster and Leinster are held back by the IRFU and could increase funding.  Munster as large debts so can't spend the same (though they still can afford two WC winners)

Back in the day Welsh teams were the most sought after teams for the English.  Now only Scarlets hold any pull while Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Glasgow are all bigger pulls for English teams than the other 3 Welsh teams.

Munster's debts are owed to the IRFU and paid back at €100,000 a year, so why are mentioning Munster? That's a complete red herring.

You've also ignored that CVC are in control of the destination of all of this and you've ignored that single ownership of multiple entrants is something PRL are steadfastly against. PRL has sold 91% of the company that generates income to CVC.

I'm not sure what you consider a "pull" to be or quite why you've forgotten how we got to the EPRC from ERC.