Should the top two English leagues be merged?

First topic message reminder :

Ruck.co.uk have put together a rather pie in the sky piece about league reform in England.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/what-would-the-premiership-look-like-if-it-was-split-into-conferences-like-the-nfl/

It suggests splitting the top two divisions into 5 NFL style conferences. 

NORTHERN DIVISION
Doncaster Knights
Newcastle Falcons
Sale Sharks
Yorkshire Carnegie

LONDON DIVISION
Ealing Trailfinders
Harlequins
London Irish
Saracens

MIDLANDS 1
Bedford Blues
Leicester Tigers
Northampton Saints
Nottingham

MIDLANDS 2
Bristol Bears
Gloucester
Wasps
Worcester Warriors

SOUTHERN DIVISION
Bath
Cornish Pirates
Exeter Chiefs
Jersey

The issues emerge immediately as outraged Bristol fans want to know why they are a Midlands team and Bath are a Southern one. Midlands 2 would be much better re-badged as West.

Yorkshire/Leeds or whatever their name is this week obviously aren't fit to enter and Coventry would probably be annoyed by being overlooked after finishing last season on 4th. Not sure the Prem teams would be keen on sharing the television coverage pie but more games should mean more coverage options and maybe some shared coverage.

The West Country teams would probably want to be in the same group for derby game purposes but this would make their conference extremely harsh.

Irish Londoner wrote:

If the PRO14 is dead, where does that leave you? The English don't want you, your domestic game doesn't make enough revenue to go it alone and still remain competitive in Europe or develop international players, it's the PrO'14 or nothing unless CVC ride to the rescue but they'll have to bring the whole league to the party, not just Wales so you won't be any better off.

What's with the desire to get tonked by the English on a regular basis rather than the Scots or Irish?

Welsh professional rugby is solely in the hands of CVC.

Silly question, by the way. Again, I'll raise you the offer of a grown up conversation on the topic - the same offer 71/2 couldn't take, for obvious reasons.

They play with the irish in the euro comp. Sorry didnt realise that the welsh had stopped the top ups from the union. Is that really true? Moriarty was brought back through that, is it stopped when the contracts run out?
'But it's telling that your mindset is to run away rather than work to improve'.
Comedy gold.

In no way should the English structure succumb to the myth of conferences, as they b4st4rdise the competitive nature of a league competition.

I would be quite happy for welsh teams to join a two league set up, as they have access to football or externally funded stadia which is the main difference to the T14 which have never had any capital costs using municipal stadia.

The welsh teams would add something to the league - There should be no interest in Union owned teams being allowed to enter.

There should also be a FA cup type home/ away knockout competition and would be quite happy to ditch the Euro competitions, as we already have the Six Nations for that.

Potentially less games for the elite players using the fabled rotation system, although players like AWJ  might have to play more than the current 4/5 league games a season, heaven forbid, maybe even an away game for other spectators to watch.....

Its bizarre this rose tinted view of the English as the saviours of the welsh I have to say!

No 7&1/2 wrote:They play with the irish in the euro comp. Sorry didnt realise that the welsh had stopped the top ups from the union. Is that really true? Moriarty was brought back through that, is it stopped when the contracts run out?
'But it's telling that your mindset is to run away rather than work to improve'.
Comedy gold.

No, Moriarty never had an NDC

And, as ever, that's your level of accuracy

No 7&1/2 wrote:Its bizarre this rose tinted view of the English as the saviours of the welsh I have to say!

Well, yes, but that's only because you've chosen the role of deliberate contrarian.

Recwatcher16 wrote:In no way should the English structure succumb to the myth of conferences, as they b4st4rdise the competitive nature of a league competition.

I would be quite happy for welsh teams to join a two league set up, as they have access to football or externally funded stadia which is the main difference to the T14 which have never had any capital costs using municipal stadia.

The welsh teams would add something to the league - There should be no interest in Union owned teams being allowed to enter.

There should also be a FA cup type home/ away knockout competition and would be quite happy to ditch the Euro competitions, as we already have the Six Nations for that.

Potentially less games for the elite players using the fabled rotation system, although players like AWJ  might have to play more than the current 4/5 league games a season, heaven forbid, maybe even an away game for other spectators to watch.....

Spot on.

But either way those payments dont exist anymore then phil? It's purely down to teams without any funding by the union to keep the players with the welsh teams?

No 7&1/2 wrote:But either way those payments dont exist anymore then phil? It's purely down to teams without any funding by the union to keep the players with the welsh teams?

No funding. Just payments for services, as the English clubs have.

Pretty similar model with the EPS, too, but different ratios of payments for different services.

e.g. I'd imagine the EPS payment is lower in England than its equivalent in Wales, but the academy fee would be greater etc.

So youd imagine that would have to be included in the cap straight away then if the unions are paying directly to players.

Its complicated already and open for abuse. Would just get worse. Probably better for the English to keep it to england.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So youd imagine that would have to be included in the cap straight away then if the unions are paying directly to players.

As noted, the only direct payment from Union to players is at the Dragons, who would have likely been sold by now were it not for Covid.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So youd imagine that would have to be included in the cap straight away then if the unions are paying directly to players.

Its complicated already and open for abuse. Would just get worse. Probably better for the English to keep it to england.

You shouldn't have edited your post before you were educated on your error.

I can see why you play the contrarian because you fail miserably when you have to promote your own knowledge of the game.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would the english want to play with the welsh rather than include the better teams like Leinster? They'd still have the same problem with the welsh union paying players wages as well. That'd have to go as well of course. You've basically turned 3 threads into how youd like your team to play with the english though. Bit sad when it's not going to happen. Maybe follow the football if you're that unhappy with the rugby?

The Welsh union only pays the Dragons wages whilst the Dragons are being sold.
The English wouldn't want single ownership of multiple entrants who wouldn't work to a salary cap.

I've not turned anything into anything, but it's telling that your mindset is to run away rather than work to improve. I guess it's difficult to play the role of deliberate contrarian when presented with logic, hence your complete failure today.

Can I ask where you are getting your information that "The English wouldn't want single ownership of multiple entrants who wouldn't work to a salary cap" from - is there a link to it, I'd like to read who said it and their reasoning?

Edited which post? If the welsh unions have stopped paying the wages of welsh players already fair enough. You say they have but not sure that's true.

Anyway I get it you think the irish bully you and historically the english have been really kind to the welsh.

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why would the english want to play with the welsh rather than include the better teams like Leinster? They'd still have the same problem with the welsh union paying players wages as well. That'd have to go as well of course. You've basically turned 3 threads into how youd like your team to play with the english though. Bit sad when it's not going to happen. Maybe follow the football if you're that unhappy with the rugby?

The Welsh union only pays the Dragons wages whilst the Dragons are being sold.
The English wouldn't want single ownership of multiple entrants who wouldn't work to a salary cap.

I've not turned anything into anything, but it's telling that your mindset is to run away rather than work to improve. I guess it's difficult to play the role of deliberate contrarian when presented with logic, hence your complete failure today.

Can I ask where you are getting your information that "The English wouldn't want single ownership of multiple entrants who wouldn't work to a salary cap" from - is there a link to it, I'd like to read who said it and their reasoning?

See the reasoning for Altrad's exclusion from Gloucester, for starters.

And I think the issue with the salary cap doesn't need any explanation after the last 12 months, does it?

PhilBB wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:In no way should the English structure succumb to the myth of conferences, as they b4st4rdise the competitive nature of a league competition.

Spot on.

???????

What are you even arguing for at this point.

As I thought, you don't even know your own mind. It follows that your posts don't make any sense.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Edited which post? If the welsh unions have stopped paying the wages of welsh players already fair enough. You day they have but not sure that's true.

Anyway I get it you think the irish bully you and historically the english have been really kind to the welsh.

I clicked reply on your post. I replied. I then scrolled up to see you had added a second paragraph - so that 'edited post'

If you're not sure it's true then do something remarkable called 'research'.

Nice contrary bit of BS on the post too, in order to try to deflect from you having been shown up as clueless.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:In no way should the English structure succumb to the myth of conferences, as they b4st4rdise the competitive nature of a league competition.

Spot on.

???????

What are you even arguing for at this point.

As I thought, you don't even know your own mind. It follows that your posts don't make any sense.

I explained that earlier in the thread. You must have skipped reading some of the messages and that's leading to you not following something so basic.

As an example of a message you've missed, you claimed that NFL franchises had gone 'broke'. I asked you when the last time that had happened. You're yet to reply, leading me to think that you'd missed the message.

PhilBB wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Sorry, maybe I got my wires crossed, when you said rugby should be more like the NFL I thought you meant adopting their processes. We already have a salary cap (of sorts) although I do agree that the smaller clubs or clubs without a sugar daddy do struggle to even meet it.

Still not convinced what a conference structure brings though - maybe go to two divisions with a couple of Championship teams and spread the TV money across both - but I can't see the turkeys voting for Christmas on that one. English rugby does need a pro team in the North though, firstly as a presence and secondly to stop Rugby League taking all the best prospects.

The Academy area for the rugby league heartland is already in place, isn't it? So I'm not sure it 'needs' a professional team to stop that from happening.

My point on conferences is solely that the NFL model hasn't been tried.

My club is stuck in a garbage competition that nominally has 'conferences'. It's utterly abysmal.

Here you go "beers". Here's an example of something that you've clearly missed, hence you're struggling to follow the basic logic.

You like to back out of things and just made up the argument of the other side. Dont worry the english white knights are riding in to save you from the mean Scots and Irish.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You like to back out of things and just made up the argument of the other side. Dont worry the english white knights are riding in to save you from the mean Scots and Irish.

I do? What have I "liked to back out of"? Do explain.

Several things this afternoon. Feel free to go back yourself and read them. I've quoted them to you on other threads and you've still tries to argue black is white.

Phil, please try and lose your virginity

When that happens, maybe we'll look to prop up Welsh rugby

No 7&1/2 wrote:Several things this afternoon. Feel free to go back yourself and read them. I've quoted them to you on other threads and you've still tries to argue black is white.

So no evidence.

Funny that.

BamBam wrote:Phil, please try and lose your virginity

When that happens, maybe we'll look to prop up Welsh rugby

Oh no, your mother has been keeping secrets from you.

Nasty.

Mum jokes

BamBam wrote:Mum jokes

As woeful as virginity jokes, aren't they?

Still, back to the rugby anybody?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Several things this afternoon. Feel free to go back yourself and read them. I've quoted them to you on other threads and you've still tries to argue black is white.

So no evidence.

Funny that.

Evidence already provided but you're on one today for some reason. I dont get why you think the English would be better than the pro 14, much of a muchness.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Several things this afternoon. Feel free to go back yourself and read them. I've quoted them to you on other threads and you've still tries to argue black is white.

So no evidence.

Funny that.

Evidence already provided but you're on one today for some reason. I dont get why you think the English would be better than the pro 14, much of a muchness.

Did you ever open up that browser page with a map of the UK? We could start there.

Or, alternatively, let me know which team you're a season ticket holder for.

I dont have a season ticket. Occasionally go watch Doncaster but havent been at all in the last season.

I'm aware of the map.

PhilBB wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:In no way should the English structure succumb to the myth of conferences, as they b4st4rdise the competitive nature of a league competition.

Spot on.

???????

What are you even arguing for at this point.

As I thought, you don't even know your own mind. It follows that your posts don't make any sense.

I explained that earlier in the thread. You must have skipped reading some of the messages and that's leading to you not following something so basic.

As an example of a message you've missed, you claimed that NFL franchises had gone 'broke'. I asked you when the last time that had happened. You're yet to reply, leading me to think that you'd missed the message.

Your posts are incoherent, aggressive, and clearly seeking attention from others in an confrontational manner. 'Conversing' with you is clearly a zero sum game and I've realised that after, what, 3 messages or so between us? You're a very belligerent character and I have no idea why but you've certainly cleared up that you have no idea what your actual opinion on this matter is (I suspect there are other reasons motivating your posts rather than actual conviction or belief in what you're saying). There's little point replying to your points because, as I said, they're confused and nonsensical.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I dont have a season ticket. Occasionally go watch Doncaster but havent been at all in the last season.

I'm aware of the map.

Why do you go to see Doncaster?

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Your posts are incoherent, aggressive, and clearly seeking attention from others in an confrontational manner. 'Conversing' with you is clearly a zero sum game and I've realised that after, what, 3 messages or so between us? You're a very belligerent character and I have no idea why but you've certainly cleared up that you have no idea what your actual opinion on this matter is (I suspect there are other reasons motivating your posts rather than actual conviction or belief in what you're saying). There's little point replying to your points because, as I said, they're confused and nonsensical.

Ok, thanks. Apologies for not being able to pitch them at the right level for you.

Maybe we can start again? That would be good.

Could we start with which NFL franchises have 'gone broke'?

Decent running rugby team under Griffiths. Dont know how it's gone this last year though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Decent running rugby team under Griffiths. Dont know how it's gone this last year though.

That's a good start. Are they your local team or do you travel huge distances to watch them play?

Walk down to the end of my village. Village is a stupid term for it as its bigger than the town I grew up in.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Several things this afternoon. Feel free to go back yourself and read them. I've quoted them to you on other threads and you've still tries to argue black is white.

So no evidence.

Funny that.

Evidence already provided but you're on one today for some reason. I dont get why you think the English would be better than the pro 14, much of a muchness.

Did you ever open up that browser page with a map of the UK? We could start there.

Or, alternatively, let me know which team you're a season ticket holder for.

Well if were talking "the UK" are you OK with Scotland joining in as well ? What about Ulster?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Walk down to the end of my village. Village is a stupid term for it as its bigger than the town I grew up in.

Right, so it's local to you and easy for you to get to.

So, if you expand on that, why do you think Welsh pro teams would prefer to play the English clubs over the Irish and Scottish?

Irish Londoner wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Several things this afternoon. Feel free to go back yourself and read them. I've quoted them to you on other threads and you've still tries to argue black is white.

So no evidence.

Funny that.

Evidence already provided but you're on one today for some reason. I dont get why you think the English would be better than the pro 14, much of a muchness.

Did you ever open up that browser page with a map of the UK? We could start there.

Or, alternatively, let me know which team you're a season ticket holder for.

Well if were talking "the UK" are you OK with Scotland joining in as well ? What about Ulster?

Opening up the map of the UK would show that, for example, Bath is closer to Swansea than is Edinburgh. That's the point of opening up the map.

So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

I'll reiterate my point: the conference system has been a disaster in rugby whether that's Super Rugby or the Pro14. It only rewards the small pool of 'winners' - in this case NZ and Ireland. Everyone else has suffered: Argentina saw their national team become a laughing stock and their test players were earning less money than they were prior to the Jaguares. Australian rugby has gone down the pan and is circling the drain. Welsh rugby has dropped off a cliff and along with Scotland they are competing against the Irish who are not only in a tax haven in comparison to the UK but are competing against union-ran provinces that have completely wrapped up the league for their own continued success (most notably Leinster's, with particular focus on Europe). South Africa have seen revenues fall and their own players have vanished overseas, leaving room for politics to come surging back in and do its best to cripple the Boks. The Japanese saw that Super Rugby was doing very little for it and rightly left once they had gained the experience they needed from the Sunwolves: surprise, surprise, their own domestic league is now more attractive than Super Rugby.

Conference rugby doesn't work.

England would be stupid to kill their own league system out of blind trust of hedge fund money.

I feel like rugby is deliberately throwing itself off a cliff while pretending someone is down below waiting to soften the fall. It's very odd and comes from a desperation for money in order to keep and attract outside investment as well as provide a world class salary for rugby players who might otherwise be tempted by other pro sports. On the other hand, it's also just sheer incompetence by those running the game, which can be forgiven in the circumstances as rugby is lurching in to true professionalism with no small amount of damage done on the way.

rugby racing and beer wrote:I'll reiterate my point: the conference system has been a disaster in rugby whether that's Super Rugby or the Pro14. It only rewards the small pool of 'winners' - in this case NZ and Ireland. Everyone else has suffered: Argentina saw their national team become a laughing stock and their test players were earning less money than they were prior to the Jaguares. Australian rugby has gone down the pan and is circling the drain. Welsh rugby has dropped off a cliff and along with Scotland they are competing against the Irish who are not only in a tax haven in comparison to the UK but are competing against union-ran provinces that have completely wrapped up the league for their own continued success (most notably Leinster's, with particular focus on Europe). South Africa have seen revenues fall and their own players have vanished overseas, leaving room for politics to come surging back in and do its best to cripple the Boks. The Japanese saw that Super Rugby was doing very little for it and rightly left once they had gained the experience they needed from the Sunwolves: surprise, surprise, their own domestic league is now more attractive than Super Rugby.

Conference rugby doesn't work.

England would be stupid to kill their own league system out of blind trust of hedge fund money.

I feel like rugby is deliberately throwing itself off a cliff while pretending someone is down below waiting to soften the fall. It's very odd and comes from a desperation for money in order to keep and attract outside investment as well as provide a world class salary for rugby players who might otherwise be tempted by other pro sports. On the other hand, it's also just sheer incompetence by those running the game, which can be forgiven in the circumstances as rugby is lurching in to true professionalism with no small amount of damage done on the way.

Hes talking leagues. Ie the aviva prem and the championship clubs with the welsh teams in it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

rugby racing and beer wrote:I'll reiterate my point: the conference system has been a disaster in rugby whether that's Super Rugby or the Pro14. It only rewards the small pool of 'winners' - in this case NZ and Ireland. Everyone else has suffered: Argentina saw their national team become a laughing stock and their test players were earning less money than they were prior to the Jaguares. Australian rugby has gone down the pan and is circling the drain. Welsh rugby has dropped off a cliff and along with Scotland they are competing against the Irish who are not only in a tax haven in comparison to the UK but are competing against union-ran provinces that have completely wrapped up the league for their own continued success (most notably Leinster's, with particular focus on Europe). South Africa have seen revenues fall and their own players have vanished overseas, leaving room for politics to come surging back in and do its best to cripple the Boks. The Japanese saw that Super Rugby was doing very little for it and rightly left once they had gained the experience they needed from the Sunwolves: surprise, surprise, their own domestic league is now more attractive than Super Rugby.

Conference rugby doesn't work.

England would be stupid to kill their own league system out of blind trust of hedge fund money.

I feel like rugby is deliberately throwing itself off a cliff while pretending someone is down below waiting to soften the fall. It's very odd and comes from a desperation for money in order to keep and attract outside investment as well as provide a world class salary for rugby players who might otherwise be tempted by other pro sports. On the other hand, it's also just sheer incompetence by those running the game, which can be forgiven in the circumstances as rugby is lurching in to true professionalism with no small amount of damage done on the way.

Would you agree that the NFL style conference has yet to be tried, however?

On your point about the English league system - nobody is suggesting "killing" it so I'm not sure why you chose that word. But, yes, professional sport has a desperation for money. It's kind of the point of professional sport.

PhilBB wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Your posts are incoherent, aggressive, and clearly seeking attention from others in an confrontational manner. 'Conversing' with you is clearly a zero sum game and I've realised that after, what, 3 messages or so between us? You're a very belligerent character and I have no idea why but you've certainly cleared up that you have no idea what your actual opinion on this matter is (I suspect there are other reasons motivating your posts rather than actual conviction or belief in what you're saying). There's little point replying to your points because, as I said, they're confused and nonsensical.

Ok, thanks. Apologies for not being able to pitch them at the right level for you.

Maybe we can start again? That would be good.

Could we start with which NFL franchises have 'gone broke'?

NFL franchises don't go broke - if the owner of a franchise looks like they are in financial difficulties then the NFL board take the franchise off them and sell it to someone else.

Of course the difference is that owning an NFL franchise is likely to make a very rich person even richer, (it's the owners finances outside NFL with cause the problems) which simply doesn't apply in any other sport, no one is qeueing up to buy a rugby team to make money.

Doncaster wouldnt make the cut if it were 2 leagues of 10.
The welsh would start at the bottom as they're going to the league. 1 up 1 down. 2nd leagues funding is poor. Unlikely the welsh would survive tbh without going semi pro.

Irish Londoner wrote:

NFL franchises don't go broke - if the owner of a franchise looks like they are in financial difficulties then the NFL board take the franchise off them and sell it to someone else.

Of course the difference is that owning an NFL franchise is likely to make a very rich person even richer, (it's the owners finances outside NFL with cause the problems) which simply doesn't apply in any other sport, no one is qeueing up to buy a rugby team to make money.

I thought that too, but the other chap claims they do go broke, not that he's backed up that claim yet.

Good point about making money. However, CVC are queuing up to buy competitions in order to make money - so what does that say about the possibilities for the future?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doncaster wouldnt make the cut if it were 2 leagues of 10.
The welsh would start at the bottom as they're going to the league. 1 up 1 down. 2nd leagues funding is poor. Unlikely the welsh would survive tbh without going semi pro.

You've assumed 1 up 1 down, you've assumed a funding model. Nice contrary post, though.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So distance is the factor. Ok I can get that. Better to be bottom under the english than the occasional away game to Dublin.

Ah, 'bottom under the English' is an interesting term when you consider that, potentially, Doncaster could be a team in this competition. Let's say it was two divisions of 10 - I'd doubt that all four Welsh teams would be in the first division, so you've got something with that silly jibe. I'd think that two of the Welsh four would have a strong chance of winning it, however, with the English salary cap as it presently is.

I've never met 7&1/2 but have been to Donny a few times as well as Yorkshire. Yorkshire are now completely bankrupt and will be lucky to survive in any form. Donny are a small well run club with a reasonable ground for the level they play at, but there's no way the ground or the squad are fit for Premiership rugby.

The only way Donny could even think if it is for a Nigel Wray type to come in and chuck money at it, which as far as I can tell is something that neither the club or the supporters want. It's a nice day out, they generally finish mid table and the rugby's pretty good.

So which of the two Welsh clubs you think can compete with Sarcens, Exeter, Bath and the rest ? Show your working......

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doncaster wouldnt make the cut if it were 2 leagues of 10.
The welsh would start at the bottom as they're going to the league. 1 up 1 down. 2nd leagues funding is poor. Unlikely the welsh would survive tbh without going semi pro.

You've assumed 1 up 1 down, you've assumed a funding model. Nice contrary post, though.

You wouldnt want too much change in a league of 10. But then all you've made is assumptions. You're spelling out your case and you want the dice to fall.your way. The bigger more successful league is going to dictate anything like this. You've said yourself the pro 14 is failing the Welsh are not in a position of strength. Begs the question would you really want to join when you see what the real world option was.