Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Navy

And what super has also missed is that the statues and TV shows are not really the main focus of the protests. They are easy news bites to bring up but the meat of the protesters argument is about equality for black people.

I also don't think super is correct that just because you support BLM you don't also worry about atrocities committed in other spheres of life. It is just that currently the focus is on racism towards black people.

As much as he hates America, Super would really fit into their libertarian ways.

[McLaren]

Why are people so afraid of labeling an act as racism? No matter what has happened there are always people, in this case Inco and Super, who will bend over backwards to come up with arguments why the incident is not actually racist.

Don’t think it’s a case of being afraid to label it racism Mac. It might well have been (in reality it probably was) but we are talking about a nation with a fetish for guns so deep that it’s enshrined into their constitution. The trigger happy MF would probably have unloaded on the alleged felon regardless of his race.

We can’t begin to work out why most (not all) Americans consider the right to bear arms is more important than stamping out racism because it’s just not in our psyche.

Jas, see my post above aimed at inco. Think about why the police were even in this guys neighborhood and why they went near him. Would the encounter have even happened were he non black?

[JuliusHMarx]

This link quotes the DA extensively - https://abcnews.go.com/US/atlanta-police-force-policy-violated-multiple-times-fatal/story?id=71295429

Rolfe will have his day in court, but I really don't think police officers can go around breaking multiple laws and get away with it, any more than civilians.

[incontinentia]

Why are people so afraid of labeling an act as racism? No matter what has happened there are always people, in this case Inco and Super, who will bend over backwards to come up with arguments why the incident is not actually racist.

What proof do you have that the shooting was racially motivated? I want to know the truth and will gladly change my opinion if there is evidence to support racism

Inco, the cop who pulls the trigger doesn't have to do it because they are racist for the killing to be racist. The argument is about systemic racism. The moment the trigger is pulled is the end of a series of situations where black people have been viewed or treated differently. It is about how police officers are conditioned to view and treat black people differently to white people, to the point where even a black officer in the system will be indoctrinated with these ideas, never mind a racist white officer (which supers stat about black cops also killing a higher proportion of black people demonstrates). If you are genuinely interested in the evidence then this is where you have to start, try searching studies on the presence of systemic racism in the police and its causes. You are unlikely to find something as simple as a photo of one of the back killing cops chairing a klan meeting.

We're talking about a single incident. You indicated that that you believe it was an act of racism, show me the evidence to support that viewpoint.

Your argument that the system is racist, so therefore any police shooting is racist, is ridiculous.

[JuliusHMarx]

Perhaps the argument is that the system is racist and something needs to be done about it, rather than focussing on one case and nothing getting done.

It's not just about the murder - if Rolfe judged or treated Brooks differently IN ANY WAY because of the colour of his skin, that is racist, even if Rolfe himself is not aware of it.

[McLaren]

Perhaps the argument is that the system is racist and something needs to be done about it, rather than focussing on one case and nothing getting done.

It's not just about the murder  -  if Rolfe judged or treated Brooks differently IN ANY WAY because of the colour of his skin, that is racist, even if Rolfe himself is not aware of it.

It don't think inco gets it.

Inco do you see that it isn't just about the moment the trigger is pulled but about how it got to that point based on things like the choice of where police patrol, who they cast suspicion on, who they pull over, how they react when pulling someone over, the threat level they attribute to someone, the motives they attribute to someone etc. Does the system make it more probable that certain races will have an encounter with the police, when everything such as how they are behaving is held constant?

You also don't just need to focus on police killing black people you can think about why so many black people end up in jail, and how the justice system in general does not treat black people fairly.

[super_realist]

Why are people so afraid of labeling an act as racism? No matter what has happened there are always people, in this case Inco and Super, who will bend over backwards to come up with arguments why the incident is not actually racist.

Don’t think it’s a case of being afraid to label it racism Mac. It might well have been (in reality it probably was) but we are talking about a nation with a fetish for guns so deep that it’s enshrined into their constitution. The trigger happy MF would probably have unloaded on the alleged felon regardless of his race.

We can’t begin to work out why most (not all) Americans consider the right to bear arms is more important than stamping out racism because it’s just not in our psyche.

I'm not scared of labelling an act racist if its proven to be so, but you have to prove it is because of racism before you can state that it is.
Just because a black person is involved, does not necessarily make it racist as much as you'd like it to be.

[incontinentia]

It's not just about the murder  -  if Rolfe judged or treated Brooks differently IN ANY WAY because of the colour of his skin, that is racist, even if Rolfe himself is not aware of it.

Completely agree

[McLaren]

Super

Are you saying you have come across no evidence (on here or anywhere else) that has convinced you there is a systemic racism problem in us police forces?

[beninho]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/15/us/rayshard-brooks-force-law/index.html

Taser is treated the same as pepper spray in Georgia, if he had pepper spray, would the same excuse be used?

Its mentioned the officer went to his gun,before the guy aimed the tazer back. If true, thats pretty damming.

[incontinentia]

Perhaps the argument is that the system is racist and something needs to be done about it, rather than focussing on one case and nothing getting done.

It's not just about the murder  -  if Rolfe judged or treated Brooks differently IN ANY WAY because of the colour of his skin, that is racist, even if Rolfe himself is not aware of it.

It don't think inco gets it.

Inco do you see that it isn't just about the moment the trigger is pulled but about how it got to that point based on things like the choice of where police patrol, who they cast suspicion on, who they pull over, how they react when pulling someone over, the threat level they attribute to someone, the motives they attribute to someone etc. Does the system make it more probable that certain races will have an encounter with the police, when everything such as how they are behaving is held constant?

You also don't just need to focus on police killing black people you can think about why so many black people end up in jail, and how the justice system in general does not treat black people fairly.

The cops were called to a fast food restaurant cos the guy was asleep in his car! Watch the videos and come back to me

You're labelling an act as racist without even knowing the basic facts of the case

[JAS]

Think about why the police were even in this guys neighborhood and why they went near him. Would the encounter have even happened were he non black?

Do we actually know for sure why they were there Mac? Had reports of any crime been reported? Was it just a day to day neighbourhood patrol? Was the guy acting suspiciously? Did the officers have reasonable cause to question him? Did he react when questioned? Do you know all that background Mac?

[Soul Requiem]

Think about why the police were even in this guys neighborhood and why they went near him. Would the encounter have even happened were he non black?

Do we actually know for sure why they were there Mac? Had reports of any crime been reported? Was it just a day to day neighbourhood patrol? Was the guy acting suspiciously? Did the officers have reasonable cause to question him? Did he react when questioned? Do you know all that background Mac?

The police had been contacted because a man was asleep in his car blocking off a drive through restaurant.

[JAS]

Also Mac...do you have stats on White men killed by cops in US compared to AfroAmerican, Latino etc. I don’t know myself but seeing as you are hobby horsing the race issue I would expect that you’ll have those numbers quickly to hand.

[Soul Requiem]

Going from a previous post on this thread;

In the last 3 years American police have shot dead (for whatever reason):
1398 white people (20% lower than the % of white people in population)
755 Black people (this figure is 8.5% higher than the % of Americans who are black.)
542 Hispanics (3% less than the general population who are Hispanic)
134 Other
588 unknowns

[super_realist]

Super

Are you saying you have come across no evidence (on here or anywhere else) that has convinced you there is a systemic racism problem in us police forces?

There's racism everywhere, but how do you prove that an individual event is actually racist? That's the problem you're faced with.
I can imagine that every event involving a black person you will attach racism to the police response, just as you think that every criticism of the opposite gender must be sexism.

[beninho]

Going from a previous post on this thread;

In the last 3 years American police have shot dead (for whatever reason):
1398 white people (20% lower than the % of white people in population)
755 Black people (this figure is 8.5% higher than the % of Americans who are black.)
542 Hispanics (3% less than the general population who are Hispanic)
134 Other
588 unknowns

Thats a hell of a lot of unknowns. Just bad recording or couldn't work out the ethnicity?

[JAS]

Going from a previous post on this thread;

In the last 3 years American police have shot dead (for whatever reason):
1398 white people (20% lower than the % of white people in population)
755 Black people (this figure is 8.5% higher than the % of Americans who are black.)
542 Hispanics (3% less than the general population who are Hispanic)
134 Other
588 unknowns

Ok, so on the face of it, without any in-depth research or analysis there would appear to be a slight bias toward shooting black people.

To me though I’d be more questioning of how one of the worlds most advanced democratic societies guns down 3417 of its own citizens than be nit picking at the demographic make up of the numbers. In some people’s eyes that probably makes me racist. I’m guessing Mac would rather see the 8.5% issue addressed first rather than why 3417.

[super_realist]

Going from a previous post on this thread;

In the last 3 years American police have shot dead (for whatever reason):
1398 white people (20% lower than the % of white people in population)
755 Black people (this figure is 8.5% higher than the % of Americans who are black.)
542 Hispanics (3% less than the general population who are Hispanic)
134 Other
588 unknowns

Ok, so on the face of it, without any in-depth research or analysis there would appear to be a slight bias toward shooting black people.

To me though I’d be more questioning of how one of the worlds most advanced democratic societies guns down 3417 of its own citizens than be nit picking at the demographic make up of the numbers. In some people’s eyes that probably makes me racist. I’m guessing Mac would rather see the 8.5% issue addressed first rather than why 3417.

If you only look at the figures, but then you have a barrel load of other reasons as to why certain ethnicities might find themselves more likely to be in the crosshairs of plods gun. Mac however can only compute one thing at a time though and correlation on one particular aspect is definitive and unarguable causation to him.

[Shotrock]

I'm reminded of what Bob Dylan wrote about so many years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Only_a_Pawn_in_Their_Game

[super_realist]

I'm reminded of what Bob Dylan wrote about so many years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Only_a_Pawn_in_Their_Game

Let's not get into that doddering old oaf. Worst voice in history and most over rated musician of all time.

[Soul Requiem]

In the same time in the UK there have been 11 instances of death by cop, off the top of my head I could name five of them.

[beninho]

Super

Are you saying you have come across no evidence (on here or anywhere else) that has convinced you there is a systemic racism problem in us police forces?

There's racism everywhere, but how do you prove that an individual event is actually racist? That's the problem you're faced with.
I can imagine that every event involving a black person you will attach racism to the police response, just as you think that every criticism of the opposite gender must be sexism.

Do you just accept everone who says I'm not racist or its not racist?

Do you think people could be subconsciously racist?

You are correct, you cant just accept everything is racist, but you can't just accept nothing is racist. In few cases, will someone declare they did something due to racist views. But, not are usually the type who kill themselves in a spree.

[super_realist]

Super

Are you saying you have come across no evidence (on here or anywhere else) that has convinced you there is a systemic racism problem in us police forces?

There's racism everywhere, but how do you prove that an individual event is actually racist? That's the problem you're faced with.
I can imagine that every event involving a black person you will attach racism to the police response, just as you think that every criticism of the opposite gender must be sexism.

Do you just accept everone who says I'm not racist or its not racist?

Do you think people could be subconsciously racist?

You are correct, you cant just accept everything is racist, but you can't just accept nothing is racist. In few cases, will someone declare they did something due to racist views. But, not are usually the type who kill themselves in a spree.

I'm sure they can be, and I'm not saying that nothing is racist either and that's the dilemma isn't it?
Pretty much guaranteed that the next time a black man dies from a police bullet in the US there will be a raft of people who will instantly label it racist, Mac probably among them.

[Soul Requiem]

Super

Are you saying you have come across no evidence (on here or anywhere else) that has convinced you there is a systemic racism problem in us police forces?

There's racism everywhere, but how do you prove that an individual event is actually racist? That's the problem you're faced with.
I can imagine that every event involving a black person you will attach racism to the police response, just as you think that every criticism of the opposite gender must be sexism.

Do you just accept everone who says I'm not racist or its not racist?

Do you think people could be subconsciously racist?

You are correct, you cant just accept everything is racist, but you can't just accept nothing is racist. In few cases, will someone declare they did something due to racist views. But, not are usually the type who kill themselves in a spree.

The burden of proof however is on proving a positive not a negative though. I think it's abundantly clear that there is institutionalised racism within the police force but proving individual acts are racist is somewhat trickier, were Rayshard Brooks white do I think he would still be alive now? Most probably yes but I can't prove that.

[beninho]

Yes, but you can still have that opinion, based on what you have seen or known. A view is not a court of law.

But, i think most can accept, race issues within America and the police force, therefore I think its fair, to at least question most deaths of black men by the police force.

[super_realist]

Yes, but you can still have that opinion, based on what you have seen or known. A view is not a court of law.  

But, i think most can accept, race issues within America and the police force, therefore I think its fair, to at least question most deaths of black men by the police force.

Of course its fair to question and considering the laughable amount of deaths compared to other gun owning countries you have to question what is going on there.
A view is one thing, but jumping to the conclusion that a particular event is racist simply because its a black man who is brown bread is evidently a very infantile position to take. Just as it would be stupid to claim its not racist. We simply aren't in receipt of the facts and taking a view on it either way is pointless.

[Shotrock]

Super - Could not disagree more. Brilliant songwriter and lyricist, IMO.

[super_realist]

Super - Could not disagree more. Brilliant songwriter and lyricist, IMO.

Nothing wrong with an opinion, but to be he sounds like a stabbed bagpipe. Terrible voice.

[JAS]

Super - Could not disagree more. Brilliant songwriter and lyricist, IMO.

Nothing wrong with an opinion, but to be he sounds like a stabbed bagpipe. Terrible voice.

I find his voice a bit irritating but as Shotrock says as a songwriter and lyricist he’s right up there (or maybe more aptly left up there - which is probably another reason you don’t like him)

[super_realist]

Super - Could not disagree more. Brilliant songwriter and lyricist, IMO.

Nothing wrong with an opinion, but to be he sounds like a stabbed bagpipe. Terrible voice.

I find his voice a bit irritating but as Shotrock says as a songwriter and lyricist he’s right up there (or maybe more aptly left up there - which is probably another reason you don’t like him)

He's become one of those people that people can't accepting you not liking.
I see him like I see Springsteen. Can't see the attraction, but he's probably at least a generation before my time.

[westisbest]

Springsteen is the MAN  

[incontinentia]

Find myself agreeing with super more and more these days (not sure if that's cause for concern). Never saw what was so great about Dylan, but then again I don't really "get" poetry etc. That Hurricane song's not bad, if a tad long. Also, Leonard Cohen is for pretentious tw@s.

[super_realist]

Find myself agreeing with super more and more these days (not sure if that's cause for concern). Never saw what was so great about Dylan, but then again I don't really "get" poetry etc. That Hurricane song's not bad, if a tad long. Also, Leonard Cohen is for pretentious tw@s.

Cohen's voice is also terrible.

[JAS]

Super - Could not disagree more. Brilliant songwriter and lyricist, IMO.

Nothing wrong with an opinion, but to be he sounds like a stabbed bagpipe. Terrible voice.

I find his voice a bit irritating but as Shotrock says as a songwriter and lyricist he’s right up there (or maybe more aptly left up there - which is probably another reason you don’t like him)

He's become one of those people that people can't accepting you not liking.  
I see him like I see Springsteen. Can't see the attraction, but he's probably at least a generation before my time.

What the hell’s wrong with Springsteen, whether you’re talking live gigs, back catalogues full of anthems or him as a human being, what is there not to like?? Have a word with yourself man!! :-p

[McLaren]

Other factors. You have to remember it is other factors.








https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1277643514030051331


full article https://ourworldindata.org/covid-excess-mortality

[pedro]

Meanwhile at GPB’s place.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-53226495/couple-stands-in-front-yard-to-point-guns-at-protesters

[Shotrock]

And Trump retweets it!

[McLaren]

Deplorables

[super_realist]

Other factors. You have to remember it is other factors.








https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1277643514030051331


full article https://ourworldindata.org/covid-excess-mortality

What's your explanation then Owen Jones? Why isn't Ireland the same as UK, they locked down a day later and had their first deaths earlier. If it was only down to reaction time then they should be just as bad as the UK.

Speed of response is only one of the dozens of factors and only a noob like you who has just hatched out of an egg would  not be able to see why the UK might have such a bad set of statistics other than for policy reasons.

[beninho]

Ireland were shutting down before us, remember they closed the bars and pubs before St Patrick's day. Don't think Ireland was behind England at all.

They closed schools earlier, and I think shops were closed earlier.

[super_realist]

Ireland were shutting down before us, remember they closed the bars and pubs before St Patrick's day.  Don't think Ireland was behind England at all.

They closed schools earlier, and I think shops were closed earlier.

Ireland had their first death before the UK and locked down a day after on the 24th.

The idiocy in this is to assume that the UK's terrible death rate is entirely due to government intervention or lack thereof as Mac implies. He does appear to be incapable of being able to juggle that death rates in all countries are subject to dozens of reasons as to why they may be low or high. Furthermore, NI is under UK rules but is pretty much identical to Ireland in regards to death rates as one would expect given the demographic similarities between North and South. Sweden didn't even have a lockdown and don't have figures as bad as the UK. Anyone with even the slightest intelligence can see that each countries individual circumstances are highly significant to infection and death rates.

Is anyone claiming the UK couldn't have reacted quicker? No, but it was SAGE who recommended unanimously not to lock down earlier. Were they wrong? It would certainly appear so. Therefore, where is Mac's condemnation of SAGE?

Has any country gone through this without being able to use hindsight and considered they could have acted better or quicker? Of course not. Anyway, we've done this to death.

[beninho]

I'm just pointing out that using Ireland as an example is wrong, they were ahead of us with schools, pubs and i think shops and restaurants.

different advice must of been given. Though I've seen members of sage, say they shoukd have locked down earlier. Notvsure if any leading politician has admitted that though.

But, the buck stops with the government.

[JAS]

Ireland were shutting down before us, remember they closed the bars and pubs before St Patrick's day.  Don't think Ireland was behind England at all.

They closed schools earlier, and I think shops were closed earlier.

Ireland had their first death before the UK and locked down a day after on the 24th.

The idiocy in this is to assume that the UK's terrible death rate is entirely due to government intervention or lack thereof as Mac implies. He does appear to be incapable of being able to juggle that death rates in all countries are subject to dozens of reasons as to why they may be low or high.  Furthermore, NI is under UK rules but is pretty much identical to Ireland in regards to death rates as one would expect given the demographic similarities between North and South. Sweden didn't even have a lockdown and don't have figures as bad as the UK. Anyone with even the slightest intelligence can see that each countries individual circumstances are highly significant to infection and death rates.

Is anyone claiming the UK couldn't have reacted quicker? No, but it was SAGE who recommended unanimously not to lock down earlier.  Were they wrong? It would certainly appear so. Therefore, where is Mac's condemnation of SAGE?

Has any country gone through this without being able to use hindsight and considered they could have acted better or quicker? Of course not. Anyway, we've done this to death.

Probably the reason we've done it to death and keep doing it to death is that it IS open to interpretation. Whatever Sage advised (or were told to advise) in Feb/March on reflection a few of them now conclude with hindsight that we should have locked down sooner, The decision to lockdown DID lie with the Government, Sage advises, governments take policy decisions. The lockdown timing is one thing, the big thing I would say about the timing compared to Ireland is that while they cancelled St Paddys day event we let Cheltenham go ahead and we let Liverpool Atletico Madrid go ahead (letting 3000 in from Madrid when the virus was raging there). The other thing I think that was worse than the timing of the lockdown was the (lack of) enforcement of the lockdown, yes there were a few token slap on the wrist fines but quite frankly if we had gone for draconian, we'd be in a much better place now. The wishy washiness of the lockdown in my opinion is why our curve is developing a long thick tail and why we will have a few "Leicesters" before this is done, in fact I can see us jumping headlong into a 2nd wave worse than the first one because basically people are stupid coupled with the fact that we have a completely irresponsible press and media and the cherry on the cake, a government of awkward decision avoiding ditherers.

[super_realist]

Can you imagine if the government had not taken the advice of SAGE and had locked down sooner? There would be just as much criticism. If the government overrules SAGE, then what's the point in having them?

You are dead right though in some respects. I think one of the major reasons that Britain has a high death rate other than the obvious population density, London size, unacceptable levels of obesity and poor health is the clear stupidity of your average Brit.

[super_realist]

I'm just pointing out that using Ireland as an example is wrong, they were ahead of us with schools, pubs and i think shops and restaurants.

different advice must of been given. Though I've seen members of sage, say they shoukd have locked down earlier. Notvsure if any leading politician has admitted that though.

But, the buck stops with the government.

Funny you make no mention of NI and Oirland being virtually identical though in terms of deaths despite Ireland having "some" closures before and NI being subject to UK lockdown processes. In these terms it's a fair comparison.

[dynamark]

Ive just managed to miss the 2nd lockdown in Leicester by a matter of 200 yds.This is very unfair on large numbers of residents who have been sticking to the rules over a wide area.The centre of the new cases are two areas Highfields and North Evington .These are densely populated mainly Asian muslim area.Lots of narrow streets corner shops mosques and schools.Plus a load of garment manufacture in pretty crowded old factories which didn't stop.Most of these families are large living in multi generational houses ,very social lifestyle.Lot of non English speaking which may have affected communications.I know there were many large gatherings for the festival of Eid at the end of may large family groups .The politicians and officials are going to have to face up to this concentration of illness in these groups and take some solid steps to deal with it.

[JAS]

Ive just managed to miss the 2nd lockdown in Leicester by a matter of 200 yds.This is very unfair on large numbers of residents who have been sticking to the rules over a wide area.The centre of the new cases are two areas Highfields and North Evington .These are densely populated mainly Asian muslim area.Lots of narrow streets corner shops mosques and schools.Plus a load of garment manufacture in pretty crowded old factories which didn't stop.Most of these families are large living in multi generational houses ,very social lifestyle.Lot of non English speaking which may have affected communications.I know there were many large gatherings for the festival of Eid at the end of may large family groups .The politicians and officials are going to have to face up to this concentration of illness in these groups and take some solid steps to deal with it.

Good to hear your ok Dyna. Looks like the eyes of the country will be on Leicester for the next few days. From what you describe sounds like a classic area for rapid spread and to be the kind of area that will exist in most big towns and cities. What do you think of Leicester/Palace going ahead at the weekend? Even with behind closed doors it still sounds bonkers, where is the stadium in relation to those areas?

[dynamark]

Hi Im fine my area has 2 infections recorded in around 7000 residents.
Footy is no problem the stadium is in the city pretty private but there will be no one there .
I feel sorry for the outer areas that have got dragged in for safety.It wouldn't mean unless you know the area much but Oadby Glenfield Wigston Birstall these are urban semi detached wide streets no problem.the problem is in town the dense terraced streets and the general culture of the mainly Asian based populations very social family based living and probably not able to do too much about it but they use the corner shop the butcher the veg store eat and live in large family groups always have done.Its not going to be politically very correct (labour stronghold so wouldn't want to upset the locals) but the politicians have got to step up.the mayor, Jon Ashworth and 2 other local labour MPs have all had a pop at the govt when they should be talking to the people.4 golf course will shut so its tragic.back to football we are are pants at present

[McLaren]

Dyna

Stop being a selfish git. Just accept we will have to make sacrifices for the greater good at this point. Boo hoo some people don't get to go to primmark for a week or so.

[super_realist]

Not getting to Primark has to be a benefit.

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