Scotland 2020 Internationals

First topic message reminder :

With club rugby in Europe back up and running I thought it might be time to begin a new International thread.

Scotland's Upcoming 2020 International Fixtures

Warm Up

Scotland vs Georgia 23rd October BT Murrayfield (KO TBC)

6 Nations

Wales vs Scotland 31st October 2.15pm KO (venue TBC)

Eight Nations Tournament pool games

Italy vs Scotland November 14th November 12.45pm KO (Venue TBC)

Scotland vs France 22nd November 3pm KO BT Murrayfield

Scotland vs Fiji 28th November 1.45pm KO BT Murrayfield

December 5th Eight Nations play-off matches (1st vs 1st, 2nd vs 2nd, 3rd vs 3rd, 4th vs 4th)

It would be good to see lang get another shot but centre is very competitive so playing your rugby in Scotland as a centre probably helps. That may well help Dean and G Taylor get a look in first this Autumn if Johnson and D Taylor are injured. Hutchinson is probably first choice now although Scott might get the nod ahead of him.

Tend to agree Bsando. DVDM has the habit of not committing to the tackle

He has got better. I assume the Cockers treatment has had an affect

Hazel Sapling wrote:Tend to agree Bsando. DVDM has the habit of not committing to the tackle that Wales will want to exploit. He is better going forward than defending on high balls so want to have the consistent Maitland over him for a game that could be worth a £1m in prize money and Scotland really should be favourites to take.

If Kinghorn get his work under the high ball and tackling even to Seymour's level (let alone L Williams), he will get into the side more frequently than not.

Lang has the size to be more imposing on the game than he is. He is only 25 so could develop further but right now Johnson and Scott are definitively ahead of him. He is in the chasing pack with D Taylor, G Taylor, Dean and McDowall

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the prize money about? Is that to do with where you may finish in the Six Nations?

bsando wrote:Also, I noticed Cotter has put together a pretty formidable coaching team to help Fiji become the team we all know they could potentially be. That is probably the banana skin Scotland need to be prepared for most.

I ask this without any intention of WUMming even though it could be interpreted as that: are Fiji still a 'banana skin' for Scotland? Given the Fijian performances in the world cup, which was basically world class rugby for 60 minutes v Wales and Australia with an inability to play for the final 20, and given Scotland lost to Japan and exited at the same stage of the RWC as Fiji...surely that match will be closer than just a 'banana skin'? Fiji have beaten France away in recent years. If Fiji turn up it's basically evens in my eyes. They're far more potent than Scotland, it's just game mangement and nous to play the full 80 where they're lacking.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

bsando wrote:Also, I noticed Cotter has put together a pretty formidable coaching team to help Fiji become the team we all know they could potentially be. That is probably the banana skin Scotland need to be prepared for most.

I ask this without any intention of WUMming even though it could be interpreted as that: are Fiji still a 'banana skin' for Scotland? Given the Fijian performances in the world cup, which was basically world class rugby for 60 minutes v Wales and Australia with an inability to play for the final 20, and given Scotland lost to Japan and exited at the same stage of the RWC as Fiji...surely that match will be closer than just a 'banana skin'? Fiji have beaten France away in recent years. If Fiji turn up it's basically evens in my eyes. They're far more potent than Scotland, it's just game mangement and nous to play the full 80 where they're lacking.

I mean this is obviously a WUM but I'll explain seeing as you've developed an interest in the trials of Scottish rugby fandom.

After the world cup Fiji appointed a coach who used to coach Clermont and Scotland. You may have heard of him, stern looking fella. Anyways he's now had nearly a year in post to develop a game plan for Fiji, a side with considerable talent but scant fiscal resources. Depth aside, you're probably right, they'd be better than Scotland if they had the organisation down. In fact they could probably beat most NH sides on their day, not just Scotland.

Long story short, he knows a lot of our players inside out, unlike many other international coaches, and will have had a long time to plan how to beat us. He's the right man to steer a ship that has drifted off course as he proved with Scotland and is just the bloke to bring that organisation to Fiji. Whether the politics will allow him to is another question for another thread. So yes, Fiji will be a potential banana skin as they will be reinvigorated under a new coach but given our own resources and players who regularly play together it should still be an advantage to us. Yes we had a piss poor world cup, but it's now about as relevant as nightclubs are during Corona. We've shown improvement through this year and, even I, as someone who is not a Toonie fan can see that. We could still beat Wales and go 3 from 5 this 6Ns. Which is pretty respectable tbh.

It's not a WUM in the slightest. I don't know how to ask that question genuinely without it sounding like one.

I think it's more of a WUM claiming that Scotland could be considered favourites against Wales tbh! They've beaten them twice in nearly 20 years!

What are we actually basing this on? Because I'm looking at how teams perform when it matters - and maybe this tournament won't see the very best from each team, maybe players will be rusty and all the rest of it, and maybe Fiji will bring a scratch side because clubs won't release players, but Scotland are genuinely flirting with tier 2 status at the moment, particularly if you take away imports. Fiji have some of the best players in the world playing for the best clubs in Europe. They're far from perfect but I think Fiji will ruffle some feathers and, for me, Scotland could lose and I wouldn't be overly surprised. That's not a WUM. That's just how I see it. Home advantage seems to be the failsafe that covers the cracks in all honesty. If it were a neutral venue I'd genuinely make it evens and give Fiji a chance of putting a big score in the first 60 and then possibly holding out for the win. Calling them a banana skin is a joke tbh. They're at the top end of tier 2 and Scotland are at the bottom end of tier 1. There's  not a lot of difference between the two countries even if there's not much overlap in their strengths!

We are well aware that they can beat us, because they have in Fiji fairly recently. We should beat them though just as England should beat us. The amount of times Scotland get called a banana skin, it's not disrespectful, frankly it's a realistic picture of where we are and where Fiji are. We're inconsistent but less so than Fiji.

I didn't say we're favourites against Wales and am well aware of our record. Doesn't mean we couldn't win, which given our trajectory after the France game doesn't seem as unlikely as it did 12 months ago... I hope Finn Russell starts and scores a hat trick

Also, I remember reading this website last year. Plenty of Scottish posters were talking about 'minimum wins' last year. Or maybe it was this year. The disruption during covid has made me lost track.

It was similarly optimistic. It this 'minimum' chat was pre-RWC, as I think it was, then I think a bit of perspective is needed. The grass always seems greener for Scotland. I can't quite see how you're basing this sort-of year of test rugby as 'signs of improvement'. Scotland had a lot more rest than most other 6 Nations side for starters! They were lucky they played England in a hurricane. They were lucky France truly, actually bottled it against them (a term that is overused these days in sport but totally applies there, the pressure of being on the brink got to them and they imploded with a red card).

Honestly, I'm not convinced. Ireland and Wales will likely be weaker than they were 12 months ago due to coaching changes but England should wipe the floor with Scotland and France have the talent to do the same if they get their mentality correct.

I have no idea where you're getting the 3 from 5 number from but as I recall it was a similarly ambitious 'win count' prediction on these boards that were talking about Scotland beating Wales and Ireland - something they very rarely do. For me, Fiji will worry Scotland. Scotland played Samoa in 2017, right? That was a great game but Scotland were at their peak then post Cotter and they're not as good now because they made their coaching downgrade earlier than Ireland and Wales did. As you mention, with Cotter Fiji could be lethal. I'm not sure Scotland have the power and nous to shut them down, or the talent to go toe to toe and win like they did v Samoa.

Fiji beat Scotland in 2017 as well - when not many Scottish players were away with the Lions, either!

I just think it's massively disrespectful to call them a banana skin. They're a lot better than that and without home advantage I have no doubt we'd see that - even with it we still might.

I actually didn’t know Fiji were now coached by Cotter. Looking forward to seeing them during the Autumn Nations Cup, and also dreading it .

NeilyBroon wrote:We are well aware that they can beat us, because they have in Fiji fairly recently. We should beat them though just as England should beat us. The amount of times Scotland get called a banana skin, it's not disrespectful, frankly it's a realistic picture of where we are and where Fiji are. We're inconsistent but less so than Fiji.

I didn't say we're favourites against Wales and am well aware of our record. Doesn't mean we couldn't win, which given our trajectory after the France game doesn't seem as unlikely as it did 12 months ago... I hope Finn Russell starts and scores a hat trick

I said it before but I’ll say it again, it’s Scotlands best chance against Wales in 20 years. No ‘home advantage’ to an extent, and our defence coach is still Byron Hayward. I think Pivac is still finding his feet in this job. Good coach but he needs to move away from Gatland territory with the selections and do his own thing. He’s actually got a better squad to pick from so I would hope that we improve.

I think we have a great shot against Wales. Townsend has made Scotland harder to beat and although we've sacrificed attacking potency along the way, I think we'll have enough.

Also helps that a number of our key players are going to be battle hardened by European rugby finals.

rugby racing and beer wrote:Also, I remember reading this website last year. Plenty of Scottish posters were talking about 'minimum wins' last year. Or maybe it was this year. The disruption during covid has made me lost track.

It was similarly optimistic. It this 'minimum' chat was pre-RWC, as I think it was, then I think a bit of perspective is needed. The grass always seems greener for Scotland. I can't quite see how you're basing this sort-of year of test rugby as 'signs of improvement'. Scotland had a lot more rest than most other 6 Nations side for starters! They were lucky they played England in a hurricane. They were lucky France truly, actually bottled it against them (a term that is overused these days in sport but totally applies there, the pressure of being on the brink got to them and they imploded with a red card).

Honestly, I'm not convinced. Ireland and Wales will likely be weaker than they were 12 months ago due to coaching changes but England should wipe the floor with Scotland and France have the talent to do the same if they get their mentality correct.

I have no idea where you're getting the 3 from 5 number from but as I recall it was a similarly ambitious 'win count' prediction on these boards that were talking about Scotland beating Wales and Ireland - something they very rarely do. For me, Fiji will worry Scotland. Scotland played Samoa in 2017, right? That was a great game but Scotland were at their peak then post Cotter and they're not as good now because they made their coaching downgrade earlier than Ireland and Wales did. As you mention, with Cotter Fiji could be lethal. I'm not sure Scotland have the power and nous to shut them down, or the talent to go toe to toe and win like they did v Samoa.

Fiji beat Scotland in 2017 as well - when not many Scottish players were away with the Lions, either!

I just think it's massively disrespectful to call them a banana skin. They're a lot better than that and without home advantage I have no doubt we'd see that - even with it we still might.

You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about Scottish posters.

Don't all fans want to see improvement in their side? We say we can win against anyone because we can and have proven it (except New Zealand) in recent years. I'd agree dropping cotter was possibly the biggest mistake made by Scottish rugby but who knows what would have happened or if anything would have been different after 5 years under his tenure. No-one is going to look at their team who has beaten every 6 nations side in recent years and say "eh, we'll settle for one shock win again this year". We've been through that. I remember when we were posting on the original 606 forum about Hadden and Robinson and co. One shock win was taken as something massive and we were all bloody delighted.

To understand the psyche of the fans you have to look back further than the last 5 years when people outside of Scotland actually started noticing the rugby team. Think back to 2012 when we lost to Tonga at home. When we were wooden spoon regulars, when Johnson took over as head coach. As a fan base from 2005-2015 we waded through some real sh*te rugby. From 2015 to now we're back arguably to where Scottish rugby was in the 90s, with a competitive side that gets wins far more frequently. To give it some perspective, we had about a 20% win rate with Matt Williams in 2005, 30/40% with Hadden, about 40 with Robinson then Johnson, then up over 50 with cotter and around the same with Toonie although it's flatlined and is at risk of dropping again.

What you're saying about Fiji is true but it could equally apply to Scotland. Is it fair to be optimistic about our prospects? Absolutely. Do Fiji worry us? Absolutely but we should be able to beat them. Doesn't mean we will.

No no, the mans right, we scots need to mind our place in rugby. Our star players, Hogg and Russell, are overrated and very regularly win high stakes games for the best teams in England and France by accident.

The ridiculous game against England? Who cares, we lost to Japan. The previous year against England? Nah that was England switching off. The 50 point drubbing against Australia at home? Pfffft we all imagined it, australia actually won that game , don't let the score confuse you. France in the six nations, halting their charge to a grandslam? Nah, typical French, scotland were bound to get lucky, nothing to do with physically wrecking the French in the contact and pinning them back in their own 22 with canny pressure play.

How would you like us to see our rugby? With disdain and self loathing? Who would you like us to pick instead of russell and hogg for scotland? They are useless after all so please tell us who is better in scotland

I believe we should win all our scheduled games with the exception of France, who have better players. To beat France we need to play smart and, wind them up use all the tricks in the book to offset the power they bring.

Fiji are always interesting to play against, and I'll be fascinated to see what Cotter can do for them. They have several world class players, in the real sense rather than the Welsh sense, but have often suffered due to lack of cohesion and defensive positioning. Cotter will help them. He's a great coach. I think we'll win, but they'll show flashes of brilliance to scare us.

Guys - rule number one of message boards. don't feed the troll and that is all rugby racing and beer is. a troll and not very subtle one at that. So best ignored.

sorry, was late at night when i saw all his messages, will try not to feed the trolls from now on

rugby racing and beer wrote:Honestly, I'm not convinced. Ireland and Wales will likely be weaker than they were 12 months ago due to coaching changes but England should wipe the floor with Scotland

The last 3 Six Nations have seen them go 1-1 along with a draw. I don't think too many English are of the mind that England should wipe the floor with Scotland. The Scots usually play very well against us, personally I don't rate their chances of a win below any of the other sides providing they bring their A game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54337372

Finn Asked about his tactics against Exeter...

"I'm just going to send high balls up to hoggy all the time, we're not going to play rugby"

Several Racing players have tested positive for Covid 19

What's the solution with this one, forced to play, or forfeit? I hope they can reschedule.

Can imagine the only option is forfeit, with the Leicester game already setting a precedent. There's no way they'll be able to play it if there's Covid rife in the squad, and moving it back a few weeks would clash with internationals.

Yeah, difficult to see what else they can do other than forfeit - what a nightmare.

Hoonercat wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:Honestly, I'm not convinced. Ireland and Wales will likely be weaker than they were 12 months ago due to coaching changes but England should wipe the floor with Scotland

The last 3 Six Nations have seen them go 1-1 along with a draw. I don't think too many English are of the mind that England should wipe the floor with Scotland. The Scots usually play very well against us, personally I don't rate their chances of a win below any of the other sides providing they bring their A game.

I know. It's a weird quirk effectively created by England deciding to blow a 30-odd point lead at half time of a game where they had just lost the 6 Nations championship.

If you're pinning anything other than 'anomaly' on that drawn game then, sorry, but you're being dishonest.

If you go back one game further there's a 60 point thrashing that Scotland suffered. I think that's more likely to happen than a Scotland win in all honesty seeing how good England are. I don't think anyone will live with them this time - the only thing stopping them is back to back games and if they can manage fatigue.

So did they catch it from the dirty Sarries or was it the manky Leinster?

All joking aside, if they have an outbreak and then it's found in other teams then we could be looking at cross border games being binned again at least until after the winter!

Tramptastic wrote:sorry, was late at night when i saw all his messages, will try not to feed the trolls from now on

Oh right, ok, some WUM calls me a troll and you just believe him? Poor from you.

tigertattie wrote:So did they catch it from the dirty Sarries or was it the manky Leinster?

All joking aside, if they have an outbreak and then it's found in other teams then we could be looking at cross border games being binned again at least until after the winter!

I seem to remember there was a bit of a stir on social media cause Roman Poite was coughing during the Clermont/Racing game a couple of weeks ago...

Hamilton and Goode were going on about that game. It is not a good look

They have 16 days to get the testing sorted, figure out who is infected and quarantine them.

Health is more important than rugby ultimately so if something has to give, international sports competition and holidays are a small price.

Finn Russell a European POTY nominee...

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:sorry, was late at night when i saw all his messages, will try not to feed the trolls from now on

Oh right, ok, some WUM calls me a troll and you just believe him? Poor from you.

No no, it wasnt his assertion that you were a troll that convinced me you were a troll. It was your trolling that that did that!

mikey_dragon wrote:Finn Russell a European POTY nominee...

Alongside Hoggy - changed days indeed for us Scottish fans having both of them in there.

I'd say Hoggy is probably the least deserving, but could make a decent case for all of the others to win.

Scotland are lucky indeed to have 2 stardust players. Just need those around to provide the nuts and bolts. Think Russell deserves the award from the matches I've seen in Europe but have a feeling theres a growing bandwagon for Radradra which means he'll get it.

It's fantastic and aye, i'd agree Hogg has only really started to shine for Exeter post-lockdown.

All the players nominated are awesome, would like to see Sam Simmonds get it just for the recognition he deserves (how does that guy not have more England caps???)

On a side note, since Hogg moved to Exeter i've listened to the Exeter games on the radio and the commentary from BBC radio Devon is my new favourite thing

Tramptastic wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:sorry, was late at night when i saw all his messages, will try not to feed the trolls from now on

Oh right, ok, some WUM calls me a troll and you just believe him? Poor from you.

No no, it wasnt his assertion that you were a troll that convinced me you were a troll. It was your trolling that that did that!

The Age of Trump: where alternative viewpoints are verboten and open to ad hominem ridicule because we're all living in our snow-filled echo chambers.

It's just an opinion. You need to be more tolerant to opposing views.

There's not much of a difference between Fiji and Scotland in my book. Don't be surprised if they do you over. It's stupid calling them a banana skin, truly stupid, considering they gave Australia and Wales - two much better teams than Scotland - a real test in the world cup. They should be targeting Scotland for a win and part of me hopes they do it.

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:sorry, was late at night when i saw all his messages, will try not to feed the trolls from now on

Oh right, ok, some WUM calls me a troll and you just believe him? Poor from you.

No no, it wasnt his assertion that you were a troll that convinced me you were a troll. It was your trolling that that did that!

The Age of Trump: where alternative viewpoints are verboten and open to ad hominem ridicule because we're all living in our snow-filled echo chambers.

It's just an opinion. You need to be more tolerant to opposing views.

There's not much of a difference between Fiji and Scotland in my book. Don't be surprised if they do you over. It's stupid calling them a banana skin, truly stupid, considering they gave Australia and Wales - two much better teams than Scotland - a real test in the world cup. They should be targeting Scotland for a win and part of me hopes they do it.

Honestly, any time Fiji win i'm a happy man. They beat us over in Fiji and I was perplexed as to how i could even be frustrated at that. Fiji are a joy to watch, rugby for entertainments sake is the soul of the game and any team that attempts to play brave attacking rugby should receive plaudits. If Fiji beat Scotland in the autumn I won't be too upset, i'll be laughing with glee at any try scored by Fiji and i'll be shouting at the tv whenever Russell does something equally ridiculous.

I'm sorry you feel triggered by me! This is a safe space and you can express yourself however you want without fear of being attacked

Perhaps stop calling people WUMs and ganging up on new posters?

Just a thought.

I honestly don't think people here were ganging up on you!

To summarise:

You had a differing opinion on Russell

You expressed this on a Scottish rugby specific thread

People disagreed with you

You persisted that we were all wrong and should accept your opinion as verbatim

We disagreed and told you as such

You persisted and declared that you hope we get thumped by an opposing team

I suggested that this is a safe place to express yourself and that im sorry for having triggered you

you suggested im a bully

Again, im sorry you feel this way, both about the posters here and Scottish rugby. I hope that you never feel triggered again on these boards again, being triggered can be quite a traumatic experience and we're here to help you out the best we can

Tramptastic wrote:
You persisted that we were all wrong and should accept your opinion as verbatim

I'm sorry but I didn't read beyond this point. I think it's clear who is the WUM.

Ach well, I tried to be as apologetic, contrite and polite as I could be

I'm sorry you feel this way and, as always, i'm sorry if I triggered you!

Tramptastic

Keep up the positive vibes man.

Mind you Ritchie, Zander, Mullett and Dancer would all be in isolation if the game was this, or next weekend. Does make you wnder how much rugby we'll be seeing this autumn.

Cheers Jimbo!

I saw Ritchie had to isolate but I had no idea about Zander and Mullet!

It's almost as if theres a highly contagious virus running rampant through society...

I think they'll get the fixtures in, the unions all need tv revenue so they'll happen, whether thats rearranged or however!

Also, happy to see that seeding for the 2023 world cup will be based on rankings from January 2020... Scotland for another pool of death!

Tramptastic wrote:Ach well, I tried to be as apologetic, contrite and polite as I could be

I'm sorry you feel this way and, as always, i'm sorry if I triggered you!

Eesh!

Isn't 'i'm sorry you feel like that' like gaslighting 101?

Anyway, Fiji and Scotland have been drawn in the same RWC banding. As I said, they're not a banana skin, and the two sides are closer in standard than anyone else seems to be admitting.

EST wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Finn Russell a European POTY nominee...

Alongside Hoggy - changed days indeed for us Scottish fans having both of them in there.

I'd say Hoggy is probably the least deserving, but could make a decent case for all of the others to win.

It helps when they play for those sort of clubs, but I think most already knew both were good players anyway. Both should be Lions.

mikey_dragon wrote:

EST wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Finn Russell a European POTY nominee...

Alongside Hoggy - changed days indeed for us Scottish fans having both of them in there.

I'd say Hoggy is probably the least deserving, but could make a decent case for all of the others to win.

It helps when they play for those sort of clubs, but I think most already knew both were good players anyway. Both should be Lions.

Ach im sure Hoggy will be, Gatland is a fan for sure

It's whether Gatland believes Russell is reliable enough on the big stage - European final and autumn tests will hopefully answer some of those questions!

New poster

Fiji being anything other than an excellent sevens team triggers me.

Where was my safe space when they beat us in 2018? I've never encountered such an aggressive banana skin.

If Jaco van der Walt is called up, I'll be pissed off because he was utterly dreadful tonight!!

I'd rather young Nathan Chamberlain get a shot.

Highland Shaun wrote:If Jaco van der Walt is called up, I'll be pissed off because he was utterly dreadful tonight!!

I'd rather young Nathan Chamberlain get a shot.

I expect he still will to make sure he's then bound to Scotland.

I'm not too worried either way as I expect 3rd choice FH would get minimal gametime. VDW hasn't become a bad player overnight but his last couple of games have been dreadful. That said I wouldn't be too worried still as I know he can be a solid, if unspectacular player.

Chamberlain is still a bit too raw considering this is his first pro contract, he will get opportunity I'm sure but I'd rather see him starting/regularly playing for Edinburgh before considering him for Scotland. I definitely agree he's an exciting prospect though.

We've still got Weir down south of course, and a few options who can play FH if needs be such as Lang and at a push Kinghorn.

Bit harsh on VDW, he missed some kickable penalties and a few important kicks to touch but he wasn't awful. Edinburgh looked a bit naive for the conditions and go locked in their own half after Ospreys scored their last try. Ospreys looked more experienced and played the conditions perfectly. Having Webb picking the blindside multiple times and his game management in general was really helpful for Ospreys. It's tough in wet weather like that, once you go behind, coming back is all the harder. The other side can just play the territory game.

Darcy was fantastic! he really is an amazing player. Did anyone else see his manhandling of the Osprey's 14? He used a left handed fend and the defender bounced off the floor when he hit the turf. Graham is deceptively strong for his size.

bsando wrote:Bit harsh on VDW, he missed some kickable penalties and a few important kicks to touch but he wasn't awful. Edinburgh looked a bit naive for the conditions and go locked in their own half after Ospreys scored their last try. Ospreys looked more experienced and played the conditions perfectly. Having Webb picking the blindside multiple times and his game management in general was really helpful for Ospreys. It's tough in wet weather like that, once you go behind, coming back is all the harder. The other side can just play the territory game.

Darcy was fantastic! he really is an amazing player. Did anyone else see his manhandling of the Osprey's 14? He used a left handed fend and the defender bounced off the floor when he hit the turf. Graham is deceptively strong for his size.

Dunno if it's overly harsh but you're right that it also was a team issue and ospreys simply turning up and being better.

Darcy is superb, especially given how many injury setbacks he's had. Potentially a lions bolter as part of the obligatory two or three Scots.

VDW would probably be a good option at 12 as well, so he’s the sort of player you want in your team. Very consistent and I think a lot of NH clubs would like to utilise him.