Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[Soul Requiem]

First topic message reminder :

The far left is often dependent on where an individual themselves is on the political spectrum, for example Owen Jones may be seen as far left to someone who is centre right but to a centrist will be seen as merely left wing, personally have him down as part of the hard left.

I have him as left wing. Though is hard left not the same as far left because I dont have him as far left. I get tge views based on your own spectrum though. Which is why I hare labour supporters calling Starmer and others right wing.  Left of centre is not right wing.

I would say that hard left is within the standard left wing myself, thinking of someone like Tony Benn being hard left as opposed to Ed Milliband who was soft left, will say however that is possibly closer to far left than it is the centre.

[JAS]

Inspirational self isolation by Tango man!! Motorcade drive by of his supporters?? Jesus wept is no one prepared to tell this sociopath that he’s a dangerous sociopath.
My first instinct was that he didn’t have it and it was all being stage managed for electoral sympathy. Given the conflicting medical reports and other Poopie around the story, I think my first instinct, conspiratorial or not, is more likely to be the truth than the bilge were being fed. Either that or the Nutkin has even more of a problem with sanity than Covid

[pedro]

Well, the leftist media didn't buy in on the videos and wanted more proof of his health "for the sake of the nation". Now this is wrong too. Without commenting particularly on the drive-by, I just think we must conclude that whatever this man does or doesn't do, it's just wrong. Watching the media coverage of DT is becoming more painful than watching DT himself.

[McLaren]

Well, the leftist media didn't buy in on the videos and wanted more proof of his health "for the sake of the nation". Now this is wrong too. Without commenting particularly on the drive-by, I just think we must conclude that whatever this man does or doesn't do, it's just wrong. Watching the media coverage of DT is becoming more painful than watching DT himself.

Good people on boths sides right?

[navyblueshorts]

Well, the leftist media didn't buy in on the videos and wanted more proof of his health "for the sake of the nation". Now this is wrong too. Without commenting particularly on the drive-by, I just think we must conclude that whatever this man does or doesn't do, it's just wrong. Watching the media coverage of DT is becoming more painful than watching DT himself.

And whose fault is it that this is the perception? The moron in the White House; that's who.

[Davie]

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theory crackpot but has anyone considered this may be a Trump stand-in?

[McLaren]

I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theory crackpot but has anyone considered this may be a Trump stand-in?

To be fair "Paul McCartny" has been getting away with that for about 60 years.

[super_realist]

You'd hope there wasn't two other people who looked like Trump or McCartney

[JAS]

Well, the leftist media didn't buy in on the videos and wanted more proof of his health "for the sake of the nation". Now this is wrong too. Without commenting particularly on the drive-by, I just think we must conclude that whatever this man does or doesn't do, it's just wrong. Watching the media coverage of DT is becoming more painful than watching DT himself.

"Leftist media" is a pretty amusing term when applied in the States. Basically what the term really means is ANY media outlet not subscribed to the hilt to the gun toting ideological, freedom loving, god bothering Right.

Can you imagine the furore over here if anyone in a government position or even an MP flouted the very clearly defined quarantine self isolation rules & guidelines...oh wait!!

In reality he's probably not putting his immediate staff in any more danger than he has been for months anyway. Him saying he has now "gone to school on the virus" (something he should actually have done in EFFIN JANUARY!!) tells me that he's working on his tweet release schedule about how he's "miraculously" recovered (and he's skipped a few phases). The story just does NOT stack up but he's effectively showing 99.999999% of Americans that they ain't got access to the kind of healthcare he has. Absolute grade A buffoon.

[super_realist]

There is no left in America, Democrats and Republicans are just two degrees of the right.

What do you mean he should have done it in January? Like no other western country? Bit of Captain Hindsight there.

[Davie]

You'd hope there wasn't two other people who looked like Trump or McCartney

There are several Trump impersonators in the UK alone. For the purpose of "entertainment" apparently

[JAS]

There is no left in America, Democrats and Republicans are just two degrees of the right.

What do you mean he should have done it in January? Like no other western country? Bit of Captain Hindsight there.

I think that’s what I’m effectively saying yes, there is no such thing as Left in American politics, which makes their reference to it amusing.

Ok, if not Jan, then Feb and March and April etc not effing October when he’s lost over 200000.

[super_realist]

Not even Feb and probably not March either America was well behind Europe.

There's a lot you can't blame Trump for such as their federalised system. Florida for example can set their own rules.

[navyblueshorts]

Well, the leftist media didn't buy in on the videos and wanted more proof of his health "for the sake of the nation". Now this is wrong too. Without commenting particularly on the drive-by, I just think we must conclude that whatever this man does or doesn't do, it's just wrong. Watching the media coverage of DT is becoming more painful than watching DT himself.

"Leftist media" is a pretty amusing term when applied in the States. Basically what the term really means is ANY media outlet not subscribed to the hilt to the gun toting ideological, freedom loving, god bothering Right.

Can you imagine the furore over here if anyone in a government position or even an MP flouted the very clearly defined quarantine self isolation rules & guidelines...oh wait!!

In reality he's probably not putting his immediate staff in any more danger than he has been for months anyway. Him saying he has now "gone to school on the virus" (something he should actually have done in EFFIN JANUARY!!) tells me that he's working on his tweet release schedule about how he's "miraculously" recovered (and he's skipped a few phases). The story just does NOT stack up but  he's effectively showing 99.999999% of Americans that they ain't got access to the kind of healthcare he has. Absolute grade A buffoon.

Nail hit squarely on the head, there.

[navyblueshorts]

Not even Feb and probably not March either America was well behind Europe.

There's a lot you can't blame Trump for such as their federalised system. Florida for example can set their own rules.

Yeah, Germany has a federal system too and Trump could have taken positive steps in Feb/March. He didn't. He's a self-obsessed, sociopathic moron.

[super_realist]

How many countries that weren't in Asia took positive steps in Feb/March? Not that many.
I'm not trying to defend Trump in the slightest, but your timescales are well out.
I was in Austria and Germany in February for example and at that time they were doing nothing.

[Soul Requiem]

Nothing? More likely they were quietly going about planning for the future.

[super_realist]

Nothing? More likely they were quietly going about planning for the future.

Perhaps, but they weren't taking the sort of action that people are criticising Trump for not doing either, in fact most of them didn't have any sort of lockdown until early to mid March.

It's very easy to say what we should have been doing this and that after the event but even SAGE in the UK unaminously stated we didn't need to lock down any earlier than we did at the time.

[beninho]

Just seen sone trump witch on a clip saying Biden doesn't understand covid because he hasn't had it. The lengths they go to.

[super_realist]

Hope he doesn't get it because it looks like a light breeze would kill him.

Remember Americans are stupid Ben.

[beninho]

I would normally pike in on American stupidity, but, well, excel spreadsheets not making us look clever as things stand.

[pedro]

If you correlate for BMI I’m not sure the US death rate is any higher than most European countries.
But if you correlate for the cost of the health care system I’m pretty sure it is. So if nothing else hopefully that will be an eye opener.

[pedro]

Obama was praised for “giving hope” to black people. Hell he even received the nobel peace prize for the same reason - when every sane person knew nothing would change.
Churchill is still famous for his speech about fear while bombs were raining on him.
Yet Trump is somehow expected to nourish the fear and panic in the population?
Why is it everybody is so infatuated with extensive social control measures when in fact it’s pretty well documented who the high risk groups are?
We can agree that Trump is a buffoon, but that aside, isn’t it about time that somebody steps up to the plate and fundamentally confronts the way we are approaching this covid mess?
Young healthy people are told to pause their lives, millions of people are losing their jobs, future generations are indebted etc., when in fact those in high risk groups should just stay the hell home. (?)

[super_realist]

If you correlate for BMI I’m not sure the US death rate is any higher than most European countries.
But if you correlate for the cost of the health care system I’m pretty sure it is. So if nothing else hopefully that will be an eye opener.

Saw a good comparison of the NHS and American health.
Yank health costs twice as much and is half as good. They also have higher mortality rates and a lower life expectancy.
Mind you I'd love to see a comparison of UK health to somewhere like Norway, Japan, Netherlands etc.

[super_realist]

Obama was praised for “giving hope” to black people. Hell he even received the nobel peace prize for the same reason - when every sane person knew nothing would change.
Churchill is still famous for his speech about fear while bombs were raining on him.
Yet Trump is somehow expected to nourish the fear and panic in the population?
Why is it everybody is so infatuated with extensive social control measures when in fact it’s pretty well documented who the high risk groups are?
We can agree that Trump is a buffoon, but that aside, isn’t it about time that somebody steps up to the plate and fundamentally confronts the way we are approaching this covid mess?
Young healthy people are told to pause their lives, millions of people are losing their jobs, future generations are indebted etc., when in fact those in high risk groups should just stay the hell home. (?)

Fair point. The fear we have as a country is well over the top. It does now appear that Sweden may have approached this better than a lot of people thought. 5% reduction in economy, virtually everything back to normal and aower death rate than many other countries.
Hard to make a direct comparison between countries but doesn't appear that their economy or their population have suffered anything close to the UK.

[beninho]

I'm not a Swedish covod expert like realist. But I did see a tweet from a professor in Stockholm who has said that the restrictions will remain for at least a year. So, when you say virtually back to normal what do you mean?

[super_realist]

I'm not a Swedish covod expert like realist. But I did see a tweet from a professor in Stockholm who has said that the restrictions will remain for at least a year.  So, when you say virtually back to normal what do you mean?

They are allowed gatherings up to 50 people, they never closed the schools, bars, workplaces etc were not shut down. Many of the "restrictions" were voluntary rather than mandated and they aren't experiencing anything like the current rise we are seeing here.
Has it worked? Who knows, but a different approach seems to be worth considering. Swedes are more sensible, more responsible and less stupid than Brits though so their approach might not work here.

[beninho]

Maybe if we had a health care system like Sweden we could take the. Though I'm unsure people in the uk earning iver 40k fancy paying 52% tax.

[JAS]

I'm not a Swedish covod expert like realist. But I did see a tweet from a professor in Stockholm who has said that the restrictions will remain for at least a year.  So, when you say virtually back to normal what do you mean?

They are allowed gatherings up to 50 people, they never closed the schools, bars, workplaces etc were not shut down. Many of the "restrictions" were voluntary rather than mandated and they aren't experiencing anything like the current rise we are seeing here.
Has it worked? Who knows, but a different approach seems to be worth considering. Swedes are more sensible, more responsible and less stupid than Brits though so their approach might not work here.

Their deaths per million currently stands at 583 compared to our 623 so proportionately they’re marginally better. However if you then try and factor in overall population density (they have a much lower population and much bigger land mass then their performance can’t really be classed as better at all from a human perspective. Economically they will probably have done better if they never shutdown though. I would concur on the last point, the Swedes to tend to be more socially responsible and without sounding like I’m throwing bricks at our govt, Swedes do tend to have more trust in their elected representatives.

[beninho]

My understanding is that Sweden took everything on board as guidance. Working from home being obe, think that is ongoing well into next year. I also read that in summer large parts close down anyway. There has been a form of lockdown. But, it is a socially responsible country. As mentioned with the tax laws earlier.

Probably why IKEA is owned by a Dutch company, and a charity at that.

[super_realist]

I didnt say it was definitely better I was posing the question as to whether in the long term they might work out better.

[navyblueshorts]

How many countries that weren't in Asia took positive steps in Feb/March? Not that many.
I'm not trying to defend Trump in the slightest, but your timescales are well out.
I was in Austria and Germany in February for example and at that time they were doing nothing.

And? They also knew enough then to have done something, if they'd wanted. The fact that Germany 'did nothing' at that point also just highlights how scheisse Trump's administration has really been, given they both have a federal sort of system. Trump arguably had more time, but there outcomes are worse than the Germans. He even actively impeded the response of States doing their own thing.

[JAS]

My understanding is that Sweden took everything on board as guidance. Working from home being obe, think that is ongoing well into next year. I also read that in summer large parts close down anyway. There has been a form of lockdown. But, it is a socially responsible country. As mentioned with the tax laws earlier.

Probably why IKEA is owned by a Dutch company, and a charity at that.

Ease off before heaping praise on Ikea's social responsibility Ben, old Ingvar (Kamprad - the founder) was a multi billionaire when he died a couple of years ago, no doubt helped by the fact that he Tax exiled himself in Switzerland for 40 years... no 52% Swedish taxation for him. Similarly it was also deemed more advantageous from a Taxation perspective to "base" the Company in the Netherland. They say it's that Dutch corporate law gives better protection from hostile takeovers, it's therefore just a complete coincidence that Dutch Taxation Laws are more favourable too...aye right!!

Having said that he was also sporadically philanthropic at times. Also, from what I saw from my time in Helsingborg at Ikea, employees are well looked after and relatively well paid.

[navyblueshorts]

Obama was praised for “giving hope” to black people. Hell he even received the nobel peace prize for the same reason - when every sane person knew nothing would change.
Churchill is still famous for his speech about fear while bombs were raining on him.
Yet Trump is somehow expected to nourish the fear and panic in the population?
Why is it everybody is so infatuated with extensive social control measures when in fact it’s pretty well documented who the high risk groups are?
We can agree that Trump is a buffoon, but that aside, isn’t it about time that somebody steps up to the plate and fundamentally confronts the way we are approaching this covid mess?
Young healthy people are told to pause their lives, millions of people are losing their jobs, future generations are indebted etc., when in fact those in high risk groups should just stay the hell home. (?)

Ah yes, the 'me, me, me!' argument. There's a discussion to be had about that, perhaps, but I suggest that sort of suggestion is really more about self-interest and ignores the sort of society that perhaps we might want?

[navyblueshorts]

Obama was praised for “giving hope” to black people. Hell he even received the nobel peace prize for the same reason - when every sane person knew nothing would change.
Churchill is still famous for his speech about fear while bombs were raining on him.
Yet Trump is somehow expected to nourish the fear and panic in the population?
Why is it everybody is so infatuated with extensive social control measures when in fact it’s pretty well documented who the high risk groups are?
We can agree that Trump is a buffoon, but that aside, isn’t it about time that somebody steps up to the plate and fundamentally confronts the way we are approaching this covid mess?
Young healthy people are told to pause their lives, millions of people are losing their jobs, future generations are indebted etc., when in fact those in high risk groups should just stay the hell home. (?)

Fair point. The fear we have as a country is well over the top. It does now appear that Sweden may have approached this better than a lot of people thought. 5% reduction in economy, virtually everything back to normal and aower death rate than many other countries.
Hard to make a direct comparison between countries but doesn't appear that their economy or their population have suffered anything close to the UK.

You should be comparing Sweden w/ the other Scandinavian countries. They're noticeably worse. Despite your never-ending praise for all things Scandinavian, I suggest the ethics associated w/ their approach are questionable.

[super_realist]

I've already said that comparing countries isn't always a good idea. Just because a country is your neighbour, doesn't mean it should be comparable or have comparable rates otherwise all of Europe should be the same as every country bar Britain is connected to the others through a succession of borders . Netherlands and Belgium for example have two widely differing rates as do America/Canada, Germany/Austria etc.
There's any amount of analysis you could do as to why they may differ but it's naive to imply that its for only one reason.

It's not a suggestion, just whether their model could be applied, even in part to other countries. Worth looking at the very least as it's clearly not working here at the current time and it looks like Herr Sturgeon is about to lock Scotland down needlessly just for it to go up again in another two weeks.

[JAS]

I'm still trying to work out the chronology of the Miracle of Bethesda. Are we actually to believe that it was 1. Diagnosed Friday 2. Straight onto Remdesivir 3. Oxygen levels dropped Saturday? (something that doesn't usually happen until at least 7-10 days in then 4. Boom, Dexamethasone Sunday (something typically given to those coming off a ventilator to boost recovery). The whole thing smacks of a Hollywood Superhero script (probably the intention). The only problem with that is that most Hollywood Superhero scripts are based on complete fiction.

If he never had it earlier why did he defy all logic and evidence gathered so far on how the disease develops?
If he did have it earlier why did they keep it quiet and why is no-one (including Biden) laying into him for covering up and effectively being a super spreader not a superhero.

The narrative we're being given has got more holes in it than Rab C Nesbitt's string vest FFS.

[super_realist]

Plenty people have only had it very mildly Jas.

This is all getting a bit tin foil hat.

[beninho]

My understanding is that Sweden took everything on board as guidance. Working from home being obe, think that is ongoing well into next year. I also read that in summer large parts close down anyway. There has been a form of lockdown. But, it is a socially responsible country. As mentioned with the tax laws earlier.

Probably why IKEA is owned by a Dutch company, and a charity at that.

Ease off before heaping praise on Ikea's social responsibility Ben, old Ingvar (Kamprad - the founder) was a multi billionaire when he died a couple of years ago, no doubt helped by the fact that he Tax exiled himself in Switzerland for 40 years... no 52% Swedish taxation for him. Similarly it was also deemed more advantageous from a Taxation perspective to "base"  the Company  in the Netherland. They say it's that Dutch corporate law gives better protection from hostile takeovers, it's therefore just a complete coincidence that Dutch Taxation Laws are more favourable too...aye right!!

Having said that he was also sporadically philanthropic at times. Also, from what I saw from my time in Helsingborg at Ikea, employees are well looked after and relatively well paid.

Not heaping praise. Ikea is dodgy as anything with its charity status.

[super_realist]

If you were a billionaire why wouldn't you exile yourself somewhere where you didn't pay as much tax?
There seems to be a massive resentment in Britain for anyone who has done well for themselves and that somehow they shouldn't do so well because not everyone else has.
This politics of envy is pretty pathetic.
If I was as rich as Lewis Hamilton, Branson or whoever I wouldn't be domiciled here either. What I wouldn't do though is complain about Britain if I wasn't paying taxes there.

[beninho]

If you were a billionaire why wouldn't you exile yourself somewhere where you didn't pay as much tax?
There seems to be a massive resentment in Britain for anyone who has done well for themselves and that somehow they shouldn't do so well because not everyone else has.
This politics of envy is pretty pathetic.
If I was as rich as Lewis Hamilton, Branson or whoever I wouldn't be domiciled here either. What I wouldn't do though is complain about Britain if I wasn't paying taxes there.

Doing well is good. Using whatever you can to not pay tax is a bit shi££.

Whats envy got to do with it? Who is envious.?

I

[McLaren]

I thought this thread was quite interesting about single occupancy household rates in a country and how that effects transmission. Sweden has the highest proportion of single occupancy households in Europe.

https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/1307958852248272898



Essentially the argument goes that within household transmission is very high and so once a member of a household gets it the rest do as well. So I guess having only one person in the house breaks the chain of 1 person spreading it to 3 or 4 others within the home, who can then go out into the wild and spread it to another household. You can think of transmission as happening between households and the number of people living in the home determines how many more people become infected due to one household to household transmission event.

And if we think back to the start of the pandemic when it was clear in the UK that those of BAME backgrounds were disproportionately effected this could make sense in this model because in the UK a higher proportion of BAME households are multigenerational and therefore have higher occupancy.

This obviously doesn't explain it all but it could be an interesting part of how the virus has spread at different rates in different areas.

Turns out that by living alone Super is doing his bit to stop the spread of covid.

[super_realist]

If you were a billionaire why wouldn't you exile yourself somewhere where you didn't pay as much tax?
There seems to be a massive resentment in Britain for anyone who has done well for themselves and that somehow they shouldn't do so well because not everyone else has.
This politics of envy is pretty pathetic.
If I was as rich as Lewis Hamilton, Branson or whoever I wouldn't be domiciled here either. What I wouldn't do though is complain about Britain if I wasn't paying taxes there.

Doing well is good. Using whatever you can to not pay tax is a bit shi££.

Whats envy got to do with it? Who is envious.?

I

Certain people seem to have this massive resentment to anyone who is rich it would seem, maybe just an undertone in the thread but I don't see the problem with not paying tax if you move to a different country. Why should you have to live in a country that taxes you more if you don't want to live there.

I despise Hamilton for example for a lot of reasons but him living in Monaco or Switzerland or whatever is none of mine or anyone else's business. Live where you like if you can. Rich people don't have an obligation to pay tax in the county they are born in, you pay tax in the country you live. I don't see why people are criticised for that.

[Soul Requiem]

If you were a billionaire why wouldn't you exile yourself somewhere where you didn't pay as much tax?
There seems to be a massive resentment in Britain for anyone who has done well for themselves and that somehow they shouldn't do so well because not everyone else has.
This politics of envy is pretty pathetic.
If I was as rich as Lewis Hamilton, Branson or whoever I wouldn't be domiciled here either. What I wouldn't do though is complain about Britain if I wasn't paying taxes there.

Doing well is good. Using whatever you can to not pay tax is a bit shi££.

Whats envy got to do with it? Who is envious.?

I

As long as it's tax avoidance (legal) rather than tax evasion (illegal) I don't see why anyone would have a problem with people doing as they wish with their money. A lot of the time it is envy from those unable to do it.

[super_realist]

I thought this thread was quite interesting about single occupancy household rates in a country and how that effects transmission. Sweden has the highest proportion of single occupancy households in Europe.

https://twitter.com/AdamJKucharski/status/1307958852248272898



Essentially the argument goes that within household transmission is very high and so once a member of a household gets it the rest do as well. So I guess having only one person in the house breaks the chain of 1 person spreading it to 3 or 4 others within the home, who can then go out into the wild and spread it to another household. You can think of transmission as happening between households and the number of people living in the home determines how many more people become infected due to one household to household transmission event.

And if we think back to the start of the pandemic when it was clear in the UK that those of BAME backgrounds were disproportionately effected this could make sense in this model because in the UK a higher proportion of BAME households are multigenerational and therefore have higher occupancy.

This obviously doesn't explain it all but it could be an interesting part of how the virus has spread at different rates in different areas.

Turns out that by living alone Super is doing his bit to stop the spread of covid.

You never have understood the difference between effect and affect have you Mac? You probably say pacific instead of specific too.

[McLaren]

Wow, what a useful contribution to the debate.

[super_realist]

I would have thought as someone so dependent on the scientific method that effect and affect would be ingrained on you Mac.

[McLaren]

No you are right, whatever it is you have been debating you have just won be resorting to grammar pedantry. A bow to your superiority.

[beninho]

If you were a billionaire why wouldn't you exile yourself somewhere where you didn't pay as much tax?
There seems to be a massive resentment in Britain for anyone who has done well for themselves and that somehow they shouldn't do so well because not everyone else has.
This politics of envy is pretty pathetic.
If I was as rich as Lewis Hamilton, Branson or whoever I wouldn't be domiciled here either. What I wouldn't do though is complain about Britain if I wasn't paying taxes there.

Doing well is good. Using whatever you can to not pay tax is a bit shi££.

Whats envy got to do with it? Who is envious.?

I

Certain people seem to have this massive resentment to anyone who is rich it would seem, maybe just an undertone in the thread but I don't see the problem with not paying tax if you move to a different country. Why should you have to live in a country that taxes you more if you don't want to live there.

I despise Hamilton for example for a lot of reasons but him living in Monaco or Switzerland or whatever is none of mine or anyone else's business. Live where you like if you can. Rich people don't have an obligation to pay tax in the county they are born in, you pay tax in the country you live. I don't see why people are criticised for that.

I think there is a difference between individuals and companies. If you make money in a country the fact you route your business through wherever or whatever, albeit legally, is pretty shi£ in my view.

[beninho]

If you were a billionaire why wouldn't you exile yourself somewhere where you didn't pay as much tax?
There seems to be a massive resentment in Britain for anyone who has done well for themselves and that somehow they shouldn't do so well because not everyone else has.
This politics of envy is pretty pathetic.
If I was as rich as Lewis Hamilton, Branson or whoever I wouldn't be domiciled here either. What I wouldn't do though is complain about Britain if I wasn't paying taxes there.

Doing well is good. Using whatever you can to not pay tax is a bit shi££.

Whats envy got to do with it? Who is envious.?

I

As long as it's tax avoidance (legal) rather than tax evasion (illegal) I don't see why anyone would have a problem with people doing as they wish with their money. A lot of the time it is envy from those unable to do it.

Just cause its legal doesn't mean i agree or like it.

[super_realist]

How can you possibly think a person should have a responsibility to live in a particular country just because of the links they may have there?

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