Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[Soul Requiem]

First topic message reminder :

The far left is often dependent on where an individual themselves is on the political spectrum, for example Owen Jones may be seen as far left to someone who is centre right but to a centrist will be seen as merely left wing, personally have him down as part of the hard left.

I have him as left wing. Though is hard left not the same as far left because I dont have him as far left. I get tge views based on your own spectrum though. Which is why I hare labour supporters calling Starmer and others right wing.  Left of centre is not right wing.

I would say that hard left is within the standard left wing myself, thinking of someone like Tony Benn being hard left as opposed to Ed Milliband who was soft left, will say however that is possibly closer to far left than it is the centre.

[super_realist]

No you are right, whatever it is you have been debating you have just won be resorting to grammar pedantry. A bow to your superiority.

It wasn't grammar Mac, it was spelling.

[beninho]

How can you possibly think a person should have a responsibility to live in a particular country just because of the links they may have there?

Who thinks that?

[super_realist]

How can you possibly think a person should have a responsibility to live in a particular country just because of the links they may have there?

Who thinks that?

You seem to be suggesting that if if a rich person moves away from their home country that it's a breach of tax ethics.

[beninho]

How can you possibly think a person should have a responsibility to live in a particular country just because of the links they may have there?

Who thinks that?

You seem to be suggesting that if if a rich person moves away from their home country that it's a breach of tax ethics.

You seem to not be understanding what I've said. Though no matter where someone lives, if they earn money in a country, and try and duck out of the tax implications through whatever means, I think its a bit shi£.

This started with mentioning ikea, a registered non profit for tax purposes. I think thats dodgy.

[super_realist]

How can you possibly think a person should have a responsibility to live in a particular country just because of the links they may have there?

Who thinks that?

You seem to be suggesting that if if a rich person moves away from their home country that it's a breach of tax ethics.

You seem to not be understanding what I've said. Though no matter where someone lives, if they earn money in a country, and try and duck out of the tax implications through whatever means, I think its a bit shi£.

This started with mentioning ikea, a registered non profit for tax purposes. I think thats dodgy.

Why don't you hold more disdain for the law then rather than the person benefitting from those laws? You can't really blame an individual or a company from acting within a legal framework can you?

[JAS]

How can you possibly think a person should have a responsibility to live in a particular country just because of the links they may have there?

Who thinks that?

You seem to be suggesting that if if a rich person moves away from their home country that it's a breach of tax ethics.

I don’t think that what Ben or I for that matter are saying. However IF they have moved SOLELY for tax avoidance purposes then what’s wrong with questioning that.

What’s with aggressive tax avoidance anyway, it’s almost an Olympic sport for the accountants & advisers of the wealthy. Whilst it may be legal, it’s morally questionable and that would almost be fine if the avoider didn’t creep back asking for government assistance e.g. Branson. Or if wealthy businessmen paying eff all tax wanted To use the health service or the police or even roads to drive on etc. That stuff is funded through the exchequer via tax revenues. If you CHOOSE not to contribute then you shouldn’t be entitled to any public service.

Look progressive tax rates are progressive tax rates, out of a sense of morals and public duty, we should all be fine with paying our fair share. To appoint advisers and pay them a substantial amount to squirrel wealth away in Tax havens to specifically avoid paying what has been deemed a fair share helps who exactly? That means a) there’s less money in circulation if enough super wealthy and corporate entities do it and more importantly b) the mugs that can’t readily do it themselves are left to pick up the shortfall. Why would you defend aggressive tax avoiders? They are effectively costing you money ... or causing essential public services to be closed because there isn’t the money to pay for them.

[super_realist]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

[beninho]

Do you think amazon shouldn't pay tax in the UK because Bezos lives in America?

[super_realist]

Do you think amazon shouldn't pay tax in the UK because Bezos lives in America?

Amazon UK is Amazon UK and is registered here so it should pay the taxes.

[JuliusHMarx]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

I'm in the same situation, but it seems fair to me.

[JAS]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

A lot of things probably don’t seem fair to you...to be fair!!

Bear in mind whilst claiming unfair about paying 12 times more than someone who earns 3 less you then seem to want to pivot from that position to defend people who earn 12+ times more than you paying a fraction of what you do because they’ve got a smart arse accountant. Really weird logic but hey ho.

[super_realist]

I haven't said that at all. I was clearly talking about people who had moved away to live somewhere else.
If I had the sort of business where it was financially prudent to live in a country with less tax then I certainly would, wouldn't you?

In fact if I could live abroad at the current time I certainly would anyway, even if I had to pay a bit more tax to do so. I don't feel I get anything like the services I should for the amount of tax I pay.

[JAS]

I haven't said that at all. I was clearly talking about people who had moved away to live somewhere else.
If I had the sort of business where it was financially prudent to live in a country with less tax then I certainly would, wouldn't you?

In fact if I could live abroad at the current time I certainly would anyway, even if I had to pay a bit more tax to do so. I don't feel I get anything like the services I should for the amount of tax I pay.

That’s the whole point, of course you don’t because bellends like Branson and corporates like Amazon pay eff all!! So the governments choices are either a) better enforcement (not this lot it would hurt their mates) b) tax the rest of us more (probably what labour would do in addition to a) or c) do nothing to close the loopholes, bluster smoke and mirror type rhetoric but basically the let exchequer go short and blame it all on immigrants and layabouts. Guess which one the Tories have gone for since 2010??

[super_realist]

Why do you never blame successive governments who keep this open?

It's funny how you feel the governments primary concern is to keep their "mates" okay. This is the sort of conspiracy nonsense we were talking about last time.

The real reason they don't close the loopholes is because if they did then there would be far less investment in the UK as a business centre and that would mean far less take in income tax from the thousands they employ and a correspondingly higher rate of unemployment.

Do you think the likes of Google or Apple have big centres in Ireland because its location is good, because they have a high number of skilled people or that it is close to where their business is? No, it's because they get preferential tax breaks from the Irish government and its economics 101 to encourage companies to invest in your country. It happens everywhere and I think I learned this happened in GCSE Economics, how could you have overlooked this?

If you want things like "Northern powerhouses" then you have to give companies an incentive to do so in the form of tax breaks. They just don't locate there because you ask them to.

[I'm never wrong]

But should companies be taxed in the country they operate (and where people buy the stuff from) or where they are based?
(Ignorant economist speaking)

[beninho]

But should companies be taxed in the country they operate (and where people buy the stuff from) or where they are based?
(Ignorant economist speaking)

They should be taxed where they do business regardless of where they claim to base themselves. This was a point i tried to make.

[JAS]

Why do you never blame successive governments who keep this open?

It's funny how you feel the governments primary concern is to keep their "mates" okay. This is the sort of conspiracy nonsense we were talking about last time.

The real reason they don't close the loopholes is because if they did then there would be far less investment in the UK as a business centre and that would mean far less take in income tax from the thousands they employ and a correspondingly higher rate of unemployment.

Do you think the likes of Google or Apple have big centres in Ireland because its location is good, because they have a high number of skilled people or that it is close to where their business is? No, it's because they get preferential tax breaks from the Irish government and its economics 101 to encourage companies to invest in your country. It happens everywhere and I think I learned this happened in GCSE Economics, how could you have overlooked this?

I think you’ll find it was you who said that you weren’t happy with what you get for the taxes you pay. I put forward a simple explanation which you don’t like so you’ve pivoted off on GCSE economics and corporate tax avoidance in Ireland. So if our wonderful free market tax regime is so much better how come these companies are based elsewhere anyway?

We heard this nonsense for decades, keep my taxes low or I’ll emigrate and job create using my entrepreneurial savvy somewhere else...well guess what, people like that take their tax breaks then eff off anyway. We as a country need to stop pandering to Poopie talk like that. That holds no more water now than unions saying give our people a decent wage or we’re going on strike. It’s rhetorical nonsense.

Regarding successive govts keeping it open yes, you’re right and the Blair govt should have hung its head in shame that it never tackled it when it had a 200 seat majority. Huge economic and cultural own goal in my view.

[JuliusHMarx]

Why do you never blame successive governments who keep this open?

It's funny how you feel the governments primary concern is to keep their "mates" okay. This is the sort of conspiracy nonsense we were talking about last time.

The real reason they don't close the loopholes is because if they did then there would be far less investment in the UK as a business centre and that would mean far less take in income tax from the thousands they employ and a correspondingly higher rate of unemployment.

Do you think the likes of Google or Apple have big centres in Ireland because its location is good, because they have a high number of skilled people or that it is close to where their business is? No, it's because they get preferential tax breaks from the Irish government and its economics 101 to encourage companies to invest in your country. It happens everywhere and I think I learned this happened in GCSE Economics, how could you have overlooked this?

If you want things like "Northern powerhouses" then you have to give companies an incentive to do so in the form of tax breaks. They just don't locate there because you ask them to.

Obviously by 'mates' it refers to people who fund them and bolster their chances of staying in power, plus media allies and people who give them jobs either during or after their time as MPs, pay for speeches etc. The sort of stuff that benefits the government and those in it financially. Some of them are probably friends as well. Hardly a conspiracy theory.

[beninho]

Realist, do you think donors to the Conservative party would benefit from low taxes?

[super_realist]

What has who individuals donate to got to do with it? If they are investors in Britain do you think they only get tax breaks if they donate to the Conservatives? You do know that business tax incentives happen under every government in every Western democracy right? Even Corbyn would be giving tax breaks for inward investment had he somehow got in.
This isn't a conspiracy its a transparent practice.

[Soul Requiem]

But should companies be taxed in the country they operate (and where people buy the stuff from) or where they are based?
(Ignorant economist speaking)

They should be taxed where they do business regardless of where they claim to base themselves. This was a point i tried to make.

In which case you failed.

[super_realist]

Why do you never blame successive governments who keep this open?

It's funny how you feel the governments primary concern is to keep their "mates" okay. This is the sort of conspiracy nonsense we were talking about last time.

The real reason they don't close the loopholes is because if they did then there would be far less investment in the UK as a business centre and that would mean far less take in income tax from the thousands they employ and a correspondingly higher rate of unemployment.

Do you think the likes of Google or Apple have big centres in Ireland because its location is good, because they have a high number of skilled people or that it is close to where their business is? No, it's because they get preferential tax breaks from the Irish government and its economics 101 to encourage companies to invest in your country. It happens everywhere and I think I learned this happened in GCSE Economics, how could you have overlooked this?

I think you’ll find it was you who said that you weren’t happy with what you get for the taxes you pay. I put forward a simple explanation which you don’t like so you’ve pivoted off on GCSE economics and corporate tax avoidance in Ireland. So if our wonderful free market tax regime is so much better how come these companies are based elsewhere anyway?

We heard this nonsense for decades, keep my taxes low or I’ll emigrate and job create using my entrepreneurial savvy somewhere else...well guess what, people like that take their tax breaks then eff off anyway. We as a country need to stop pandering to Poopie talk like that. That holds no more water now than unions saying give our people a decent wage or we’re going on strike. It’s rhetorical nonsense.

Regarding successive govts keeping it open yes, you’re right and the Blair govt should have hung its head in shame that it never tackled it when it had a 200 seat majority. Huge economic and cultural own goal in my view.

I said I pay a disproportionate amount of tax. I said I don't get value for money for my taxes, and I'm sure you don't either.
I'm happy to pay taxes providing I get something for it, whether that's better roads, streetlighting, refuse collection, amenities etc.

Why are companies in Ireland, we've already been through this, lower tax and tax incentives. You probably work for a company that benefits in this way and if not things your pension fund is invested in most certainly are.
Be careful what you wish for, you might end up worse off.

[McLaren]

Super

You don't need half the stuff taxes pay for. You are not old, you have no children, you claim to be a peak physical specimen, you don't use public transport and are so rich you could clearly never need benefits.

At best you use the streetlights. Are you really going to get better streetlights abroad?

[super_realist]

Super

You don't need half the stuff taxes pay for. You are not old, you have no children, you claim to be a peak physical specimen, you don't use public transport and are so rich you could clearly never need benefits.

At best you use the streetlights. Are you really going to get better streetlights abroad?

Mac, Precisely, I pay for a ton of stuff I never use.
I also pay for loads of things which are sub standard or infrequently supplied.
Furthermore I pay an extra 1% in Scotland just as you do. What is there to show for it? Is Scotland a better place for it should I wish to look at it from an altruistic point of view? Doesn't seem like it.

[beninho]

What has who individuals donate to got to do with it? If they are investors in Britain do you think they only get tax breaks if they donate to the Conservatives? You do know that business tax incentives happen under every government in every Western democracy right?  Even Corbyn would be giving tax breaks for inward investment had he somehow got in.
This isn't a conspiracy its a transparent practice.

Was this waffle in response my question?

[beninho]

Super

You don't need half the stuff taxes pay for. You are not old, you have no children, you claim to be a peak physical specimen, you don't use public transport and are so rich you could clearly never need benefits.

At best you use the streetlights. Are you really going to get better streetlights abroad?

Mac, Precisely, I pay for a ton of stuff I never use.
I also pay for loads of things which are sub standard or infrequently supplied.
Furthermore I pay an extra 1% in Scotland just as you do. What is there to show for it? Is Scotland a better place for it should I wish to look at it from an altruistic point of view? Doesn't seem like it.

Do you pay for car insurance? Do you pay for income protection or critical illness cover?

[super_realist]

Super

You don't need half the stuff taxes pay for. You are not old, you have no children, you claim to be a peak physical specimen, you don't use public transport and are so rich you could clearly never need benefits.

At best you use the streetlights. Are you really going to get better streetlights abroad?

Mac, Precisely, I pay for a ton of stuff I never use.
I also pay for loads of things which are sub standard or infrequently supplied.
Furthermore I pay an extra 1% in Scotland just as you do. What is there to show for it? Is Scotland a better place for it should I wish to look at it from an altruistic point of view? Doesn't seem like it.

Do you pay for car insurance? Do you pay for income protection or critical illness cover?

What the hell has that got to to do with anything?

I pay for car insurance because its illegal not to. My work pays all my other income protection and critical illness.

[McLaren]

Super

What things do you pay for (through tax) that are substandard or infrequently supplied?

[beninho]

It was just to get an idea on where you stood on the idea of paying into a pool of money, without knowing that you would get any beneficial usage out of it.

Paying taxes is like having income protection or life cover. People pay in case something is required due to an unforseen incident. But your money also covers other people who may need the support.

You dont like paying your taxes. But think of it as a way to cover yourself if, for example sonething happens to you. You need the police, nhs, judiciary. Now you may not need any of that in your life time, but its good to have the knowledge its there and you are paying in to cover both you and others.

[super_realist]

I am required by law to have car insurance, it's not a case of whether I use it or not.
However I pay into the UK tax and services are terrible. For example I pay a lot of money in fuel duty and "road tax" yet our roads are getting worse and worse.

I don't pay money into a pool for it not to be used.

[super_realist]

Super

What things do you pay for (through tax) that are substandard or infrequently supplied?

Streetlighting - Frequently broken and slow to be fixed
Roads- appalling maintenance
Refuse collection. Far too infrequent and domestic bins often over flowing especially with bags of dog eggs.
Public amenities closing down eg libraries, sports centres
Parks and recreational areas poorly maintained, many haven't had grass cut since lockdown, litter everywhere, street litter bins not emptied.
Pavements in my street are dangerously slippy and need cleaned, leaves not being swept up as usual.
Availability of dental surgeons and doctors appointments far too difficult to get an appointment in an acceptable time frame.

How's that for a start and what exactly is Herr Sturgeon doing with the extra 1p in the pound? Nothing it would seem

[super_realist]

It was just to get an idea on where you stood on the idea of paying into a pool of money, without knowing that you would get any beneficial usage out of it.

Paying taxes is like having income protection or life cover. People pay in case something is required due to an unforseen incident. But your money also covers other people who may need the support.

You dont like paying your taxes. But think of it as a way to cover yourself if, for example sonething happens to you. You need the police,  nhs, judiciary. Now you may not need any of that in your life time, but its good to have the knowledge its there and you are paying in to cover both you and others.

I didn't say I don't like paying taxes, I said I paid a disproportionate amount of taxes and see bugger all back for it.
I'm happy to pay for things like the police, even if BLM aren't, but I'm talking about the things which should be done (and which I am paying for) but which aren't.

[JuliusHMarx]

Is that throughout Scotland or do you live in a sh1thole part of it?

[super_realist]

Is that throughout Scotland or do you live in a sh1thole part of it?

I live in an affluent part of Edinburgh, but in terms of roads, it's country wide.

[beninho]

Is that throughout Scotland or do you live in a sh1thole part of it?

I live in an affluent part of Edinburgh, but in terms of roads, it's country wide.

Sounds like an absolute hole. You should move.

[super_realist]

Is that throughout Scotland or do you live in a sh1thole part of it?

I live in an affluent part of Edinburgh, but in terms of roads, it's country wide.

Sounds like an absolute hole. You should move.

It's not as bad as London.

[beninho]

Sounds it.

Where I live, the streetlights were all upgraded pretty recently.
Roads are generally ok
Rubbish, recycling, garden waste, textiles are collected every week
Libraries have been refurbished and reopened after covid, parks open with cut grass
I've never noticed issues with the pavements

Glad I don't live in a supposed nice part of Scotland.

[super_realist]

It's the surface in my street they paved it with, sandstone as smooth as marble.
I'd still rather live here than the toilet that is London though. I'd need 200k a year to be comfortable there

[JuliusHMarx]

London is ridiculously expensive but I'm told you can get a five bed detached house in rural Yorkshire for thrupence and a bag of pork scratchings.

[super_realist]

You probably can probably buy a town in the Midlands for that. I pity anyone who has to live there

[JuliusHMarx]

You probably can probably buy a town in the Midlands for that. I pity anyone who has to live there

With it's weekly bin collections, working streetlights and tidy, non-slippery pavements. I wouldn't go anywhere near it.

[super_realist]

Made the mistake of driving through Birmingham once, absolute ghetto.

[westisbest]

There are some nice places in the midlands.

This has been done before, but every city has its nice parts and it’s bad parts.

Love Birmingham. Also like visiting London from time to time.

[super_realist]

There are some nice places in the midlands.

This has been done before, but every city has its nice parts and it’s bad parts.

Love Birmingham. Also like visiting London from time to time.

Bound to be some nice places, but most of what I saw was a post war hell hole.

[JuliusHMarx]

There are some nice places in the midlands.

This has been done before, but every city has its nice parts and it’s bad parts.

Love Birmingham. Also like visiting London from time to time.

Very true. From my rare visits to Edinburgh it looks very nice. I suspect super would find a long list of complaints about whatever location he lived in.

[JAS]

Super

What things do you pay for (through tax) that are substandard or infrequently supplied?

Streetlighting - Frequently broken and slow to be fixed
Roads- appalling maintenance
Refuse collection. Far too infrequent and domestic bins often over flowing especially with bags of dog eggs.
Public amenities closing down eg libraries, sports centres
Parks and recreational areas poorly maintained, many haven't had grass cut since lockdown, litter everywhere, street litter bins not emptied.
Pavements in my street are dangerously slippy and need cleaned, leaves not being swept up as usual.
Availability of dental surgeons and doctors appointments far too difficult to get an appointment in an acceptable time frame.

How's that for a start and what exactly is Herr Sturgeon doing with the extra 1p in the pound? Nothing it would seem

Well done on clearly illustrating the effects of austerity on public services...gold star for you!!
The public purse has been starved for over 10 years yet they've taken your taxes in full, they've allowed loopholes to stay open to allow the really wealthy and corporates to dodge their fair share, inevitable result = shortfall (or deficit). You've every right to be angry but then you're adding 2+2 and completely refusing to accept that it adds up to 4!!

[super_realist]

Roads have never been good Jas, stop trying to hijack it for the left.

By the way, withiut tax allowances for companies plenty places would be even worse. For example Nissan in Sunderland. Funny how you overlook this sort of thing isn't it?
It's far better to give a tax break to a company rather than it not set up here at all
Perhaps ask the 7000 Sunderland Nissan employees or the other 20,000 in the supply chain in the NE if they would rather their jobs didn't exist because  Jas wanted to get get the company to pay full tax. Only one answer

[superflyweight]

Roads have never been good Jas, stop trying to hijack it for the left.

By the way, withiut tax allowances for companies plenty places would be even worse. For example Nissan in Sunderland. Funny how you overlook this sort of thing isn't it?
It's far better to give a tax break to a company rather than it not set up here at all
Perhaps ask the 7000  Sunderland Nissan employees or the other 20,000 in the supply chain in the NE if they would rather their jobs didn't exist because  Jas wanted to get get the company to pay full tax. Only one answer

No guarantee of that given how the region voted in 2016.

[JAS]

Roads have never been good Jas, stop trying to hijack it for the left.

By the way, withiut tax allowances for companies plenty places would be even worse. For example Nissan in Sunderland. Funny how you overlook this sort of thing isn't it?
It's far better to give a tax break to a company rather than it not set up here at all
Perhaps ask the 7000  Sunderland Nissan employees or the other 20,000 in the supply chain in the NE if they would rather their jobs didn't exist because  Jas wanted to get get the company to pay full tax. Only one answer

Och why not go the whole hog then, abandon corp tax completely, Let’s attract everybody from Cadillac to Trabant, Boeing, the lot. Oh wait a minute we’ve only got a rump of foreign owned skilled manufacturing base left because we decimated it in favour of the Service sector driven market economy years ago. We were so devoid of any manufacturing base that we had to throw money at the Japs to get a few pockets of manufacturing back. Also for every Nissan there’s also a Honda...they’re for off despite any breaks they’ve been given. So yeah let’s abandon Corp tax altogether and me, thee and our peers pick up the shortfall.

We should NOT be in a position to be giving tax breaks to international corporates to give us a trace of manufacturing industry. Long term they’ll take the money then go when it suits them, I’ve already mentioned Honda, Dyson is another, I’m sure there’s a pretty long list.

[McLaren]

Is that throughout Scotland or do you live in a sh1thole part of it?

I live in an affluent part of Edinburgh, but in terms of roads, it's country wide.

You should find a better area to live. The area I live in has widened the pavements and it makes walking along the street so wonderful. As far as I know this will be made permanent even after covid. I can walk to a modern library, council tennis courts, council gym and council golf course. All reasonably priced due to tax payer funding. The braids might even be one of the best council courses in the country, although i think there is a decent links one out west.


PS. What restriction do you think Nicola will announce?

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