The Wales squad - Scotland, Autumn Nations Cup, and beyond

by mikey_dragon Tue 22 Sep 2020, 10:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wayne Pivac will announce the squad on October 6th, likely to be a Scarlet-heavy selection and rightly so. I would also like to see new players come in so we can see what they have to offer.

Wales might play France on October 24th in warm-up, but there is currently some doubt on whether this will go ahead. Next up is the re-arranged 6N match with Scotland on October 31st. In the autumn nations cup Wales will face-off against Ireland, England, Georgia and either France, Fiji, Italy or Scotland.

Venues to be announced.

by LordDowlais Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:02 pm

king_carlos wrote:Not wanting to open an international qualifications debate but I suspect his inclusion with the England U20s in the spring may have prompted that too. He was with the U20s for some of their under the radar games against Premiership A-teams.

He was picked in secret if I remember correctly, for a secret international fixture, but he did not get selected.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:14 pm

He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Not wanting to open an international qualifications debate but I suspect his inclusion with the England U20s in the spring may have prompted that too. He was with the U20s for some of their under the radar games against Premiership A-teams.

He was picked in secret if I remember correctly, for a secret international fixture, but he did not get selected.

I thought it was for the games against Falcons and London Irish XVs that he was in the training squad for rather than any internationals. He didn't play against Falcons (Newcastle posted a report and squads on their offy whilst England didn't report on it themselves) but was rumoured to have come off the bench against LI (which didn't get reported on, squads weren't released anywhere).

They were strange affairs which seemed like they were meant to be behind closed doors until a few Premiership forums had posts about them. Being a Tigers fan I found out when a few people started discussing Tom Manz and Kit Smith being selected for instance. Once news they were happening drifted out it seemed Falcons decided to release a match report but others didn't.

Not a case of Tshiunza being picked secretly but a case of the entire squad and game intended to be secret. I'd guess that someone got hold of a screenshot of the squads or heard some players Auntie Ruth boasting about their nephew playing for the U20s and news dripped out from there!

by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school. He also qualifies for France and was born in the Congo!

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 2:25 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school.

So it's close then? I wouldn't normally have a second thought, but for priors!

by Guest Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:00 pm

Not that it matters in terms of qualification at this stage, but he played for Wales U20 in this year's U20 6 Nations (took place in June). He played in all of Wales games I think. So he showed at least some interest in representing Wales as recently as a few months ago Smile

But yes, another example of a 'complicated' nationality in terms of rugby qualification that we increasingly see these days.

So yes, I think this may be to tie him in Smile

He didn't really seem to stand out at U20 level so a long way to go yet.

by lostinwales Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:14 pm

The Oracle wrote:Not that it matters in terms of qualification at this stage, but he played for Wales U20 in this year's U20 6 Nations (took place in June). He played in all of Wales games I think. So he showed at least some interest in representing Wales as recently as a few months ago But yes, another example of a 'complicated' nationality in terms of rugby qualification that we increasingly see these days.

So yes, I think this may be to tie him in He didn't really seem to stand out at U20 level so a long way to go yet.

Difficult for the big guys to stand out at U20's. Itoje was a very rare exception. The guy we had this time around (and one of our most import players in the U20 6N) won't be ready for senior honours for a couple of years at least.

by LordDowlais Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:50 pm

The Oracle wrote:Not that it matters in terms of qualification at this stage, but he played for Wales U20 in this year's U20 6 Nations (took place in June). He played in all of Wales games I think. So he showed at least some interest in representing Wales as recently as a few months ago But yes, another example of a 'complicated' nationality in terms of rugby qualification that we increasingly see these days.

So yes, I think this may be to tie him in He didn't really seem to stand out at U20 level so a long way to go yet.

To be fair he moved to Wales when he was about 6 or 7 years old, might even be younger, so I think that gives his qualification a bit of lee-way. He played for Whitchurch school where he was educated for the best part of his young life, he then went on to represent Rhiwbina RFC at age grade and was in the Blues/Cardiff academy until he was offered a lucrative scholarship with Exeter Uni, then low and behold he signed for the Exeter Chiefs, so I do not think he was ever anything other than Congolese or Welsh. He has played more rugby in Wales than he has any other country.

It's not as though his qualification is shady, or he was a project player ect.....

I think this is one of the easy ones to refute. thumbsup

by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school.

So it's close then? I wouldn't normally have a second thought, but for priors!

Has there been any incidents involving Wales since 2000? Grannygate is the only one I can remember.

BOD hadn't made a splash with the Lions yet. Jason Robinson was league player. Warren Gatland was coaching Ireland. The Spice Girls were reeling from Gerri Halliwell leaving. Busted hadn't released an album yet. Harry Potter was yet to be adapted to cinema. Spike Milligan was still alive.

Seems even less relevant than Clive Woodward's commentary input!

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:57 pm

Is it? It looks to be down to when he is deemed to have moved to Exeter doesn't it? He was certainly close to wiping out his eligibility.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 3:58 pm

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school.

So it's close then? I wouldn't normally have a second thought, but for priors!

Has there been any incidents involving Wales since 2000? Grannygate is the only one I can remember.

BOD hadn't made a splash with the Lions yet. Jason Robinson was league player. Warren Gatland was coaching Ireland. The Spice Girls were reeling from Gerri Halliwell leaving. Busted hadn't released an album yet. Harry Potter was yet to be adapted to cinema. Spike Milligan was still alive.

Seems even less relevant than Clive Woodward's commentary input!

Not any famous ones at least. This is close though. I always have a second glance when there's a blood sub for Harlequins or a chequebook flashed by Saracens.

by **RiscaGame** Wed 13 Oct 2021, 6:04 pm

Think Dragons have tucked Holmes up a bit, by not offering much attack threat against Ospreys and Leinster. Giving Holmes lots of opportunities in one game is probably a bit late and gives Pivac a ready made excuse. Plus it doesn’t help when this is his knowledge.

Pivac wrote: “I don't think any of the clubs will have been happy with their form last week.”

First class idiot.

If he’s telling the truth and it was a shootout between Lane and Holmes for a slot, then I can’t grumble too much. For me, I’d have him in over McNicholl as I would be comfortable enough with Holmes at 15 too.

by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 6:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:He definitely qualifies for Wales then? Not that there have been 'accidental caps' before.

Lived in Wales from 2010 when he would've been 8. Only moved to Exeter to go to Uni when he finished school.

So it's close then? I wouldn't normally have a second thought, but for priors!

Has there been any incidents involving Wales since 2000? Grannygate is the only one I can remember.

BOD hadn't made a splash with the Lions yet. Jason Robinson was league player. Warren Gatland was coaching Ireland. The Spice Girls were reeling from Gerri Halliwell leaving. Busted hadn't released an album yet. Harry Potter was yet to be adapted to cinema. Spike Milligan was still alive.

Seems even less relevant than Clive Woodward's commentary input!

Not any famous ones at least. This is close though. I always have a second glance when there's a blood sub for Harlequins or a chequebook flashed by Saracens.

Are there any not famous ones? Feels like a politicians way of saying there's been none...

by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 6:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it? It looks to be down to when he is deemed to have moved to Exeter doesn't it? He was certainly close to wiping out his eligibility.

https://www.world.rugby/wr-resources/WorldRugbyDIR/Handbook/English/pubData/source/files/Regulation8.pdf wrote:As far as students are concerned, particularly those that are not financially independent, being resident, as a full time student, in another country, is likely to be considered as a series of temporary absences from the parental home. It is anticipated that in the majority of cases involving students the parental home is likely to continue to constitute the student’s permanent and primary home. Accordingly, attendance at college/university in such circumstances is unlikely to break a Player’s consecutive period of Residence. However, as in all matters of eligibility, the overriding concern of the Regulations Committee in assessing any such case will be to ensure that there remains a close, credible and established link with the country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and permanent home. There could be circumstances in which a student living in another country may be deemed to have interrupted his Residency period.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 6:58 pm

So he got his full 10 years in then? That's all I'm asking.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 13 Oct 2021, 7:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is it? It looks to be down to when he is deemed to have moved to Exeter doesn't it? He was certainly close to wiping out his eligibility.

The WRU are obviously concerned about his eligibility because he's not ready for Premiership rugby yet. Very much a rough diamond. Had Chiefs not had so many players unavailable he may well have been on loan in the Championship.

by king_carlos Wed 13 Oct 2021, 7:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So he got his full 10 years in then? That's all I'm asking.

Moved to Wales with his family when he was 7. Went to Uni when he'd turned 18.

by Guest Wed 13 Oct 2021, 7:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Not that it matters in terms of qualification at this stage, but he played for Wales U20 in this year's U20 6 Nations (took place in June). He played in all of Wales games I think. So he showed at least some interest in representing Wales as recently as a few months ago But yes, another example of a 'complicated' nationality in terms of rugby qualification that we increasingly see these days.

So yes, I think this may be to tie him in He didn't really seem to stand out at U20 level so a long way to go yet.

To be fair he moved to Wales when he was about 6 or 7 years old, might even be younger, so I think that gives his qualification a bit of lee-way. He played for Whitchurch school where he was educated for the best part of his young life, he then went on to represent Rhiwbina RFC at age grade and was in the Blues/Cardiff academy until he was offered a lucrative scholarship with Exeter Uni, then low and behold he signed for the Exeter Chiefs, so I do not think he was ever anything other than Congolese or Welsh. He has played more rugby in Wales than he has any other country.

It's not as though his qualification is shady, or he was a project player ect.....

I think this is one of the easy ones to refute.

What do you mean by ‘refute’? I’m not questioning his nationality. I’m pointing out that he has numerous choices, which in the world currently with movement around the world, immigration, emigration, refugees, etc. means that a lot of players have a lot of available options when it comes to representing a country. Only he will know what country he wants to play for. Everything else from us is just guessing.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Oct 2021, 7:59 pm

He means I'm questioning whether he qualifies. Moved in 2010 moved back in 2020 to Exeter. Not sure the uni thing applies (Kings point above) if he's moving for a pro contract. Did he move before July in 2010 ( as he's stated that when he moved to exeter)? Has anyone even checked. That's my point.

by Guest Wed 13 Oct 2021, 8:42 pm

Really? He was quoting me!

by mikey_dragon Wed 13 Oct 2021, 10:19 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Think Dragons have tucked Holmes up a bit, by not offering much attack threat against Ospreys and Leinster. Giving Holmes lots of opportunities in one game is probably a bit late and gives Pivac a ready made excuse. Plus it doesn’t help when this is his knowledge.

Pivac wrote: “I don't think any of the clubs will have been happy with their form last week.”

First class idiot.

If he’s telling the truth and it was a shootout between Lane and Holmes for a slot, then I can’t grumble too much. For me, I’d have him in over McNicholl as I would be comfortable enough with Holmes at 15 too.

Agreed. I'm sort of used to Dragons players' not getting picked. It's the fact that Pivac is a first class idiot that irks me.

by LordDowlais Thu 14 Oct 2021, 9:32 am

The Oracle wrote:Really? He was quoting me!

I was agreeing with you, sorry if you misunderstood me.

by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Oct 2021, 9:58 am

It's strange to be short on wingers and open-sides. Holmes has played full-back for club and country, so this makes his exclusion even more odd. I think he's a better defender than McNicholl (who I do still rate). Perhaps Josh Adams will be at full back.

I can't see why some think we are missing out by not selecting Tom Rogers. He's showed on a number of occassions that he is not good enough for the step up. Looks like another Stef Evans to me - no thanks.

For me, Jac Morgan is good but I can't see what he does apart from turnovers. Another James Davies perhaps? Compared to Basham, Navidi, Wainwright and the excluded Griffiths - who have a superb all-round game and still get the turnovers. Jenkins hasn't played much, less so than Anscombe, etc. It's hard to figure out what the back-row will be, but I imagine Pivac wants to see Seb Davies or Ben Carter there.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Oct 2021, 3:43 pm

Anyone else find the comments from PIvac on style strange? I get he's probably going for players need to work on what we tell them etc but the wording is more directed towards players will be ignored if their team don't pick up the systems we want? We've had similar conversations on England and the arrival of Smith, Dombrandt etc, but doesn't this limit Wales (given fewer sides) too much?

"That is an example of the quality of the No 7s we’ve got, but the question is the type of game we want to play," said the Wales coach.

"Some clubs play in a similar style to us, but others don’t and their players don’t get to work on the areas of the game that are important to us.

"They have to understand the style of game we want to play, the positional requirements within that and the skill set required to fulfil that role.

"Along with that you need the fitness levels to play at this level, the repeatability and the top end gas. When you look at all of those things, some of the players tick some of the boxes, but not all of them.

"It is our job to ensure we pick the players who tick the majority of the boxes.

by mikey_dragon Thu 14 Oct 2021, 4:05 pm

I'm really not sure who's style he is referring to, when you look at the 'style' of the regions. We do rely on our back-row for pretty much everything though.

Interesting that he mentions top end pace. Yes I agree. Holmes has that and still wasn't picked, we were even told about how fast he was before the move.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 14 Oct 2021, 4:08 pm

Well Leicester in part as think he's talking Reffell.

by Guest Thu 14 Oct 2021, 4:08 pm

Yeah, it doesn't read too well does it? Sounds like they want 4 x mini Wales club sides all 'playing the Pivac Way'. That's not how club rugby works. Clubs have their own ethos, coaches with their own philosophies, players with their own strengths. You can't just make 4 x clone teams. Ridiculous if you ask me. Some of the best Wales teams have taken the best bits from very different clubs sides, e.g. the Pontypool front row thrown in with the running of Cardiff and Llanelli backs. Or more recently, some of the Scarlets backs and Ospreys forwards (when they were better). I don't think it's healthy for them all to be on the same hymn sheet.

by PhilBB Thu 14 Oct 2021, 4:42 pm

A coach either selects a game plan and chooses the best players to play it, or he chooses the best players and then fits a game plan in around them.

A bad coach selects a game plan and then picks players he knows can't play it.

by king_carlos Thu 14 Oct 2021, 6:31 pm

Hallam Amos to retire at the end of the season to pursue his medical career.

Obviously a surprise at only 27. He's a really solid back three player that I've always enjoyed watching when I've seen him play.

by **RiscaGame** Thu 14 Oct 2021, 7:08 pm

All the best to him. Have a good few memories of him as a Dragon. Didn’t really realise until they just posted about it, that he is our second highest try scorer. Fair play to him.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 15 Oct 2021, 7:37 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Leicester in part as think he's talking Reffell.

Perhaps in part. Reffell is a defensive monster but in attack is much less noticeable. He has the skills to link but the game plan doesn't really require him to do it much as quite a few of the Tigers forwards can do it, he normally clears rucks which doesn't fit with how the Welsh opensides normally play.

I doubt anyone will question the Tigers players fitness what with us having one of the best S&C coaches in the game and using fitness as a means to win games when the attack wasn't working last season.

by **RiscaGame** Fri 15 Oct 2021, 1:46 pm

Pivac likes to say things like that. He has commented on Basham improving on jackalling, but then not selected one of the best jackallers in Sam Parry.

He’s pretty obsessed by work ons. I wonder if he has given himself any?

by Guest Fri 15 Oct 2021, 2:25 pm

by Welshmushroom Tue 19 Oct 2021, 9:53 am

I just don't get some of his selections. Will John already has looked out of his depth at Scarlets in the opening 4 rounds. Does he really think he will somehow improve to take on some of the best sides in the World.

Some of the selections have me bewildered. The fact the coach is already talking about a blow out makes you wonder why then not select some more players that will benefit from the experiences of what is required rather than picking players who probably won't even be included in the 2023 WC Squad.

by mikey_dragon Tue 19 Oct 2021, 3:21 pm

The front row containing Evans, Elias and John has gone backwards at every opportunity. Pivac just has Scarlet fever.

by Welshmushroom Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:54 am

The ones I feel for is Morgan Morris and Jac Morgan. Both of those guys have been excellent in the opening season and continued where they left off. I just don't understand why these guys won't get picked. I'd argue based on regional form Morris along with Ratti have been the best 8's in Wales on current form. Jac along with Basham have easily been the best welsh opensides on form.

Don't get me wrong I'm happy as we have a fair few Dragons selected but even then I agree that Holmes should have been a shoe in.

No wonder Pivac thinks Wales will get pasted in the Autumn if you select 10 players from a region that has been dire at the start of the season. This isn't me bashing on the Scarlets either but they are not playing well and even the most ardent Scarlet fan has to agree with that. At lot of their guys look like they are lacking confidence.

by Welshmushroom Wed 20 Oct 2021, 9:55 am

I suppose this is what we get when you ignore league form and pick on reputation.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 21 Oct 2021, 12:14 pm

I'm not 100% convinced Morris and Ratti are Test-standard players, but you could have said the same about any number of players over the years, including Aaron Wainwright when he first came through, and I wasn't convinced Josh Navidi could make the step up until 2019 when he made me look stupid. The only thing that's certain is that if you don't give them the chance, you'll never know. Morgan Morris has looked good for a while, good solid player.

by mikey_dragon Thu 21 Oct 2021, 3:39 pm

I've seen how good Morris is, I just think he is more of a No.7. If Ratti can transfer over club form then he would be ideal at No.8 for Wales.

by PhilBB Fri 22 Oct 2021, 4:49 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I've seen how good Morris is, I just think he is more of a No.7. If Ratti can transfer over club form then he would be ideal at No.8 for Wales.

Ratti is barely a mid-range URC player. He's miles off international standard.

by PhilBB Fri 22 Oct 2021, 4:50 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:The ones I feel for is Morgan Morris and Jac Morgan. Both of those guys have been excellent in the opening season and continued where they left off. I just don't understand why these guys won't get picked. I'd argue based on regional form Morris along with Ratti have been the best 8's in Wales on current form. Jac along with Basham have easily been the best welsh opensides on form.

Don't get me wrong I'm happy as we have a fair few Dragons selected but even then I agree that Holmes should have been a shoe in.

No wonder Pivac thinks Wales will get pasted in the Autumn if you select 10 players from a region that has been dire at the start of the season. This isn't me bashing on the Scarlets either but they are not playing well and even the most ardent Scarlet fan has to agree with that. At lot of their guys look like they are lacking confidence.

Or they've been saving themselves for the internationals.....

by PhilBB Fri 22 Oct 2021, 4:51 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:I just don't get some of his selections. Will John already has looked out of his depth at Scarlets in the opening 4 rounds. Does he really think he will somehow improve to take on some of the best sides in the World.

Some of the selections have me bewildered. The fact the coach is already talking about a blow out makes you wonder why then not select some more players that will benefit from the experiences of what is required rather than picking players who probably won't even be included in the 2023 WC Squad.

"Come back to play in Wales and you'll get a squad spot"

by mikey_dragon Sat 23 Oct 2021, 2:55 pm

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I've seen how good Morris is, I just think he is more of a No.7. If Ratti can transfer over club form then he would be ideal at No.8 for Wales.

Ratti is barely a mid-range URC player. He's miles off international standard.

I think he’s got some decent potential, but whether it’s unlocked is another matter.

I’m not sure what it is with you lot down the Arms Park but from what I’ve been reading, you somehow think all your problems will be solved by bringing in an 8 like Nick Williams Rolling Eyes

. You need a new front 5, preferably South African, and a new defence coach. The squad has too many average players.

by Guest Mon 25 Oct 2021, 6:52 pm

Alex Cuthbert added to the Wales squad. I’m not sure on what basis? Has he shown enough form to be called up? If so I must have missed it, but haven’t been watching him that closely I suppose so happy to be corrected.

by **RiscaGame** Mon 25 Oct 2021, 8:25 pm

It’s such a backwards step. I’m not saying somebody like Jonah Holmes is necessarily the answer, but it’s not planning for the future at all and Cuthbert is very much a right winger only.

I suppose he hasn’t done his usual and gone for a Scarlet, but it’s still pointless.

by mikey_dragon Mon 25 Oct 2021, 8:48 pm

Wayne Wonder strikes again, muppet. If Cuthbert gets injured it's probably Tom Rogers next in line.

by Guest Mon 25 Oct 2021, 10:08 pm

I’d love him to do well, I genuinely would. I used to love watching him play when he first broken through into the Wales team. He scored some amazing tries in the early years. I remember I think he was still on a 7s contract so was getting paid very little when he was involved heavily in (I think) the 2012 grand slam and did really well. Lovely try v France in the Grand Slam game. But I guess that shows how long ago it was - almost 10 years. Nothing against a player getting picked after years out but it’s got to be a form pick. He’s played maybe twice for Ospreys since joining them? That’s it. And not a huge amount for Exeter in 3 seasons. A good cover tackle away vs Benetton is about the highlight so far this season. So just 2 games and Pivac has picked him. Doesn’t seem warranted. It’s not like we’re needing to tie him in either!

by mikey_dragon Tue 26 Oct 2021, 9:27 am

Also, whilst I've always been of the opnion that Sam Davies probably isn't international standard and has struggled with the step up, you will note that he played very well again on the weekend. In fact his form is the best I've ever seen it. Imagine being Davies and Holmes, and seeing guys like Priestland and Fluffbutt picked ahead of you. I don't expect Wales to win a single game this autumn.

by Geordie Tue 26 Oct 2021, 10:42 am

Must be doom and gloom when i see Cuthbert called up and ive seen Wales fans saying they'd rather see our young newbie Iwan Stephens over him.... Laugh

Hes only played 3 prem games....

by mikey_dragon Tue 26 Oct 2021, 5:10 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Must be doom and gloom when i see Cuthbert called up and ive seen Wales fans saying they'd rather see our young newbie Iwan Stephens over him....

Hes only played 3 prem games....

I've heard he's good, but it would be a bit soon to call him up. Not that it's stopped Pivac from selecting players with 3 or less prem games... Christ Tshizuna.

Besides, an in-form Jonah Holmes (who we also nicked) can't even buy a look-in so I doubt Stephens would be in with a shot anyway.

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