The Wales squad - Scotland, Autumn Nations Cup, and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Wayne Pivac will announce the squad on October 6th, likely to be a Scarlet-heavy selection and rightly so. I would also like to see new players come in so we can see what they have to offer. 

Wales might play France on October 24th in warm-up, but there is currently some doubt on whether this will go ahead. Next up is the re-arranged 6N match with Scotland on October 31st. In the autumn nations cup Wales will face-off against Ireland, England, Georgia and either France, Fiji, Italy or Scotland. 

Venues to be announced.

Scott Williams in, Willis Halaholo out (covid). Another step closer to Wayne’s dream team .

Well, I guess at least Scott W is showing a bit of form. Looked pretty good in the last few games. Others have been luckier in their selection I feel

Yeah, he has been showing form. It still seems it's not the best of succession planning though, but there we go.

I think his form is better than JD2's, but that might not be saying a lot.

Just based on form Pivac surely can't ignore Rowlands and Basham.  On form in Wales both those guys have to be starting for Wales against New Zealand.

I know he probably will be starting AWJ but surely he can't keep going till 2023 - even if he can I'm not convinced playing him as a starter in every game will get him there.  Personally I would love to see Wales look to pair Rowlands with someone else.  Beard would be the starter alongside to give us plenty of chances to compete at lineout.  

The major worry is in the Props.  New Zealand have massive props.  Having 2 great bench props is key for any serious chance to challenge.  Wyn Jones and Francis start all day long but im not convined either of the backup tightheads are anywhere near this level.  Dillon can't even start at regional level and John has been driven backwards and not really looked strong at all.  Samson and Brown are both miles better although granted Brown has been injured so was not available.

I dont get the Priestland selection at all.  There is no way he is making it to the next world cup.  Both Evans and Davies would have been more long term picks.  So many of his selections just are simply not based on current form.

You're right, based on form he can't ignore but he will. I would prefer Beard and Rowlands to start, unless he does something unexpected and puts Rowlands to 6. Even then, the back-row and replacements also has to consist of Moriarty, Basham and Wainwright.

It would make sense if Priestland was good, but he hasn't been playing well. He was average for Bath too.

To be honest he doesn't have many options in the back row. Moriarty & Wainwright have to start with the either Jenkins or Basham. He could move a second row to 6 but against New Zealand that would be a mistake.

I don't get why you would select so many players who wouldn't be available for New Zealand. Faletau hasn't been that good the last 18 months. Morgan Morris should have got called up.

Thomas Young has been playing well but again I would have gone with Jac Morgan if only because the guy would have been in contention for selection.

Both those guys clearly are future front runners for selection. Delaying picking them when they are clearly in form just hampers their development.

Welshmushroom wrote:To be honest he doesn't have many options in the back row.  Moriarty & Wainwright have to start with the either Jenkins or Basham.  He could move a second row to 6 but against New Zealand that would be a mistake.

I don't get why you would select so many players who wouldn't be available for New Zealand.  Faletau hasn't been that good the last 18 months.  Morgan Morris should have got called up.

Thomas Young has been playing well but again I would have gone with Jac Morgan if only because the guy would have been in contention for selection.

Both those guys clearly are future front runners for selection.  Delaying picking them when they are clearly in form just hampers their development.

True, strange that there so little options... I would have Young over Jenkins - he's hardly played and didn't look outstanding. You think it would be a mistake if we put someone very mobile there like Rowlands? It would give us more carrying options and an advantage at the lineout, which we need.

Don't disagree with anything else really. Jac Morgan was very good versus Munster.

Wales: Johnny McNicholl; Owen Lane, Jonathan Davies, Johnny Williams, Josh Adams; Gareth Anscombe, Tomos Williams; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis, Adam Beard, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Ross Moriarty, Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Ryan Elias, Rhys Carre, Dillon Lewis, Will Rowlands, Seb Davies, Gareth Davies, Rhys Priestland, Ben Thomas.

Team for Saturday.

Not a bad side considering the players made unavailable by English club owners and injury. Though the bench suffers certainly the front row…!

Might start well but I think the kiwis will pull well ahead in the second half..! Not overly optimistic this autumn

Ken Owens just pulled out. Ryan Elias to start now and Kirby Myhill (replaces Elliot Dee in the squad) to bench.

RiscaGame wrote:Ken Owens just pulled out. Ryan Elias to start now and Kirby Myhill (replaces Elliot Dee in the squad) to bench.

Not great news, we are already stretching our squad depths in many positions

Elias to start? Well this just gets better... All Blacks by 50.

Welcome back Maes

I hate being critical…but it’s the all blacks so any weakness will be magnified. And that bench front row looks really weak! Carre, Myhill and Lewis to see the game out vs the ABs? Yikes!

Is Seb Davies covering the back row? Ben Thomas to cover the back 5?! Big ask for a rookie. If he’s covering the back 5 then it’s pretty likely he’ll come on at some point. Facing the ABs in your 2nd cap

maestegmafia wrote:Not a bad side considering the players made unavailable by English club owners and injury. Though the bench suffers certainly the front row…!

Might start well but I think the kiwis will pull well ahead in the second half..! Not overly optimistic this autumn

Made unavailable by injury and the wru arranging internationals out of international windows.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Not a bad side considering the players made unavailable by English club owners and injury. Though the bench suffers certainly the front row…!

Might start well but I think the kiwis will pull well ahead in the second half..! Not overly optimistic this autumn

Made unavailable by injury and the wru arranging internationals out of international windows.

True, but most of the 6N do it these days don’t they? Just unfortunate that we’ve got the toughest team outside of the window, but that’s the only week the ABs could do apparently. I don’t blame the WRU when they’ve been hit hard by the pandemic, and with the nature of our pro game finance agreement the WRU income directly influences the payments to the pro clubs (if I’ve understood it correctly). So it’s a necessary evil as far as I can see.

Maybe it’s time to make the window a week longer?

Don't mind if unions want to arrange the fixtures. Hell I'll be watching it but you can't really complain about the clubs while doing it. I only support an international team so wouldn't mind at all about an extra fixture or 2.

The starting line up is what I knew it would be (before Owens withdrew). It was just about all it could be.

The bench is the pits. It really exposes a few of Pivac's selection gaffes. Seb Davies shouldn't be the sole backrow cover. The lack of back three cover is a concern too. These were all things he knew were happening, that Liam Williams was unlikely to be ready and Ellis Jenkins was touch and go.

I know he is obviously going to have a stronger hand for the rest of the Autumn, but there are things he could've done to strengthen this 23 too.

Massive occassion for Wyn Jones to notch up 148 tests, and its only deserving that New Zealand plays its two top locks. also Beauden Barrett seems to have racked up his 100 tests pretty quickly.

Wish Gareth Anscombe a good game, Wayne Pivac back in the day took over the Auckland Provincial team from Mark Anscombe.

Hiya Laurie,
This is going to be another bludgeoning administered by the ABs. Wales continue to schedule matches outside the international window and therefore won't have many key players available. With a full strength squad it would a be tough go. Without them, bloody well impossible unless the WRU can infiltrate someone into the ABs food preparation team in the kitchen (stranger things have happened). But everyone makes money....

From what i know of Wayne Pivac he will not see this test as a negative, he will take this opportunity to give some new Welsh players an occassion at the cardiff stadium to play for their country - this is where dreams are born.

Sure the All Blacks should win, Thought the same thing 2 years ago when they lost for the first time to Argentina.

doctor_grey wrote:Hiya Laurie,
This is going to be another bludgeoning administered by the ABs. Wales continue to schedule matches outside the international window and therefore won't have many key players available.  With a full strength squad it would a be tough go.  Without them, bloody well impossible unless the WRU can infiltrate someone into the ABs food preparation team in the kitchen (stranger things have happened).  But everyone makes money....

Have to disagree with you slightly here, Doctor Grey. You say that playing outside the international window means we won’t have ‘many key players available’. I think it is only 3 or so players that this affects (Biggar, Sheedy and LRZ)? Not sure 3 is ‘many of our key players’! The rest of the key ones missing are available but just injured, if that makes sense. So not to do with the international window

aucklandlaurie wrote:Massive occassion for Wyn Jones to notch up 148 tests, and its only deserving that New Zealand plays its two top locks. also Beauden Barrett seems to have racked up his 100 tests pretty quickly.

Wish Gareth Anscombe a good game, Wayne Pivac back in the day took over the Auckland Provincial team from Mark Anscombe.

Wyn Jones hasn't had 148 tests.

The Oracle wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Hiya Laurie,
This is going to be another bludgeoning administered by the ABs. Wales continue to schedule matches outside the international window and therefore won't have many key players available.  With a full strength squad it would a be tough go.  Without them, bloody well impossible unless the WRU can infiltrate someone into the ABs food preparation team in the kitchen (stranger things have happened).  But everyone makes money....

Have to disagree with you slightly here, Doctor Grey. You say that playing outside the international window means we won’t have ‘many key players available’. I think it is only 3 or so players that this affects (Biggar, Sheedy and LRZ)? Not sure 3 is ‘many of our key players’! The rest of the key ones missing are available but just injured, if that makes sense. So not to do with the international window

You don’t really have to disagree….
But fair point. I thought I read Faletau, Biggar, Sheedy, LRZ, Thomas Young (not sure if was a guaranteed part of the 23), and one or two others. So five or six players who could make a difference, especially with other key players out injured.

Faletau is key but hasn’t played a minute of rugby since the Lions and is out injured currently (although close to return). And Young is probably down the list really as he’s not been involved with Wales for years until his recent inclusion. Might have been in with a shout possibly. But I’m sticking with 3!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Not a bad side considering the players made unavailable by English club owners and injury. Though the bench suffers certainly the front row…!

Might start well but I think the kiwis will pull well ahead in the second half..! Not overly optimistic this autumn

Made unavailable by injury and the wru arranging internationals out of international windows.

Have done it for years we have to to make rugby work without running in the red like the pro allow their clubs to do

Any common sense in the sport realises the international game pays for everything else.

I am sick to death of people defending the pathetic billionaires who hope they won’t lose too much money at English rugby clubs while they take millions from the rfu to stop their hobby going bankrupt..!

About time the rfu grew some balls and piled the trump card out from under the feet of English club owners

aucklandlaurie wrote:From what i know of Wayne Pivac he will not see this test as a negative, he will take this opportunity to give some new Welsh players an occassion at the cardiff stadium to play for their country -  this is where dreams are born.

Sure the All Blacks should win, Thought the same thing 2 years ago when they lost for the first time to Argentina.

ABs should put fifty points on this team, some of our selections are seventh or eighth choice in that position. Where as the ABs are picking from an almost full strength squad. Plus the players English clubs refuse to release.

But I hope Wales play with pride and passion and do their damndest defeat the odds stacked against them

The Oracle wrote:Faletau is key but hasn’t played a minute of rugby since the Lions and is out injured currently (although close to return).  And Young is probably down the list really as he’s not been involved with Wales for years until his recent inclusion. Might have been in with a shout possibly.  But I’m sticking with 3!

OK - agree.  Three!
Just looked up your injury list. That is a lot of good players.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Not a bad side considering the players made unavailable by English club owners and injury. Though the bench suffers certainly the front row…!

Might start well but I think the kiwis will pull well ahead in the second half..! Not overly optimistic this autumn

Made unavailable by injury and the wru arranging internationals out of international windows.

Have done it for years we have to to make rugby work without running in the red like the pro allow their clubs to do

Any common sense in the sport realises the international game pays for everything else.

I am sick to death of people defending the pathetic billionaires who hope they won’t lose too much money at English rugby clubs while they take millions from the rfu to stop their hobby going bankrupt..!

About time the rfu grew some balls and piled the trump card out from under the feet of English club owners

No need to start a war between clubs and the rfu to placate a Welsh Rugby fan who wants to see the international game ride roughshod over the rights of the clubs and the fans of those clubs.

maestegmafia wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:From what i know of Wayne Pivac he will not see this test as a negative, he will take this opportunity to give some new Welsh players an occassion at the cardiff stadium to play for their country -  this is where dreams are born.

Sure the All Blacks should win, Thought the same thing 2 years ago when they lost for the first time to Argentina.

ABs should put fifty points on this team, some of our selections are seventh or eighth choice in that position. Where as the ABs are picking from an almost full strength squad. Plus the players English clubs refuse to release.

But I hope Wales play with pride and passion and do their damndest defeat the odds stacked against them

Maes, you seem to be blaming the English clubs and their owners here. Yet it’s the IRB/World Rugby who stipulate rules around player release, isn’t it? They’re the ones who set the international windows. Not sure it’s fair to blame the English clubs. Our own clubs only release the players outside the window because they’re paid a lot to do so.

Looking forward to the game, hope it’s a good one. There’s not that much hype for it in NZ this week to be honest. A lot of downplaying and calling it a money grab and that Wales will have all these players out etc etc.  Of course it’s a money grab by both unions because this is what it takes to survive for some unions. It’s an international game between NH vs SH in the NH, which we haven’t had for a while, so let’s get it on. Hope the ABs roll into Europe with a siege mentality and do the business. It’s either that or they may crumble after being away from home for so long.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Not a bad side considering the players made unavailable by English club owners and injury. Though the bench suffers certainly the front row…!

Might start well but I think the kiwis will pull well ahead in the second half..! Not overly optimistic this autumn

Made unavailable by injury and the wru arranging internationals out of international windows.

Have done it for years we have to to make rugby work without running in the red like the pro allow their clubs to do

Any common sense in the sport realises the international game pays for everything else.

I am sick to death of people defending the pathetic billionaires who hope they won’t lose too much money at English rugby clubs while they take millions from the rfu to stop their hobby going bankrupt..!

About time the rfu grew some balls and piled the trump card out from under the feet of English club owners

No need to start a war between clubs and the rfu to placate a Welsh Rugby fan who wants to see the international game ride roughshod over the rights of the clubs and the fans of those clubs.

different business models.

The Oracle wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:From what i know of Wayne Pivac he will not see this test as a negative, he will take this opportunity to give some new Welsh players an occassion at the cardiff stadium to play for their country -  this is where dreams are born.

Sure the All Blacks should win, Thought the same thing 2 years ago when they lost for the first time to Argentina.

ABs should put fifty points on this team, some of our selections are seventh or eighth choice in that position. Where as the ABs are picking from an almost full strength squad. Plus the players English clubs refuse to release.

But I hope Wales play with pride and passion and do their damndest defeat the odds stacked against them

Maes, you seem to be blaming the English clubs and their owners here. Yet it’s the IRB/World Rugby who stipulate rules around player release, isn’t it? They’re the ones who set the international windows. Not sure it’s fair to blame the English clubs. Our own clubs only release the players outside the window because they’re paid a lot to do so.

English players are released to the rfu by the prl

Non English players are not. So yes I see the prl and thus the club owners in England’s premiership that are at fault here.

The English premiership clubs could not survive without the money they gladly take from the international game.

If the premiership could survive without the rfu subsidising it then I would be more likely to agree with you.

I do agree with you though that World Rugby need to enlarge the international window, especially post Covid, to enable the game to generate enough funds to exist.

It has been said that this weekends encounter against the ABs should generate £4m profit for the WRU. That is a sum that welsh rugby cannot survive without.

Nothing stopping the wru paying prl the money for release. And yes the clubs would survive. They'd cut their cloth appropriately. Just sour grapes by the sound of it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing stopping the wru paying prl the money for release. And yes the clubs would survive. They'd cut their cloth appropriately. Just sour grapes by the sound of it.

Absolute rubbish, if the premiership clubs could survive and prosper without the millions generated by the rfu they would do so. Looking at the last finance report more clubs were still in the red with RFU money than those in the black.

If premiership clubs want to hire welsh players why should the wru be paying them ? The premiership clubs want to hire foreign players then they have to accept that as with all internationals those players will be unavailable to them when their nation calls.

Most of the time the welsh players are not even selected to play for their premiership clubs when they are required by the wru for international availability outside the test window.

It wasn’t long ago that there were no arranged matches during international periods.

Neither was it long ago that the international window wasn’t closed in between six nations match weekends.

The sport has done more than enough for the premiership clubs. They should be far more respectful of the international game that has kept afloat for so long.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing stopping the wru paying prl the money for release. And yes the clubs would survive. They'd cut their cloth appropriately. Just sour grapes by the sound of it.

Absolute rubbish, if the premiership clubs could survive and prosper without the millions generated by the rfu they would do so. Looking at the last finance report more clubs were still in the red with RFU money than those in the black.

If premiership clubs want to hire welsh players why should the wru be paying them ? The premiership clubs want to hire foreign players then they have to accept that as with all internationals those players will be unavailable to them when their nation calls.

Most of the time the welsh players are not even selected to play for their premiership clubs when they are required by the wru for international availability outside the test window.

It wasn’t long ago that there were no arranged matches during international periods.

Neither was it long ago that the international window wasn’t closed in between six nations match weekends.

The sport has done more than enough for the premiership clubs. They should be far more respectful of the international game that has kept afloat for so long.

RFU pays and the club releases for out of window access. Why should the WRU get the same for free outside of the agreed windows?

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing stopping the wru paying prl the money for release. And yes the clubs would survive. They'd cut their cloth appropriately. Just sour grapes by the sound of it.

Absolute rubbish, if the premiership clubs could survive and prosper without the millions generated by the rfu they would do so. Looking at the last finance report more clubs were still in the red with RFU money than those in the black.

If premiership clubs want to hire welsh players why should the wru be paying them ? The premiership clubs want to hire foreign players then they have to accept that as with all internationals those players will be unavailable to them when their nation calls.

Most of the time the welsh players are not even selected to play for their premiership clubs when they are required by the wru for international availability outside the test window.

It wasn’t long ago that there were no arranged matches during international periods.

Neither was it long ago that the international window wasn’t closed in between six nations match weekends.

The sport has done more than enough for the premiership clubs. They should be far more respectful of the international game that has kept afloat for so long.

RFU pays and the club releases for out of window access. Why should the WRU get the same for free outside of the agreed windows?

I take it you remember that it was the PRL fined Northampton RFC for agreeing to release George North because they had signed a full release for internationals Contract.

maestegmafia wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing stopping the wru paying prl the money for release. And yes the clubs would survive. They'd cut their cloth appropriately. Just sour grapes by the sound of it.

Absolute rubbish, if the premiership clubs could survive and prosper without the millions generated by the rfu they would do so. Looking at the last finance report more clubs were still in the red with RFU money than those in the black.

If premiership clubs want to hire welsh players why should the wru be paying them ? The premiership clubs want to hire foreign players then they have to accept that as with all internationals those players will be unavailable to them when their nation calls.

Most of the time the welsh players are not even selected to play for their premiership clubs when they are required by the wru for international availability outside the test window.

It wasn’t long ago that there were no arranged matches during international periods.

Neither was it long ago that the international window wasn’t closed in between six nations match weekends.

The sport has done more than enough for the premiership clubs. They should be far more respectful of the international game that has kept afloat for so long.

RFU pays and the club releases for out of window access. Why should the WRU get the same for free outside of the agreed windows?

I take it you remember that it was the PRL fined Northampton RFC for agreeing to release George North because they had signed a full release for internationals Contract.

I do remember. I remember you coming out with much the same material then as well. I think we pointed out the same arguments too, but

The only difference this time around is the discussions on extending the international window. This is a good subject for discussion

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing stopping the wru paying prl the money for release. And yes the clubs would survive. They'd cut their cloth appropriately. Just sour grapes by the sound of it.

Absolute rubbish, if the premiership clubs could survive and prosper without the millions generated by the rfu they would do so. Looking at the last finance report more clubs were still in the red with RFU money than those in the black.

If premiership clubs want to hire welsh players why should the wru be paying them ? The premiership clubs want to hire foreign players then they have to accept that as with all internationals those players will be unavailable to them when their nation calls.

Most of the time the welsh players are not even selected to play for their premiership clubs when they are required by the wru for international availability outside the test window.

It wasn’t long ago that there were no arranged matches during international periods.

Neither was it long ago that the international window wasn’t closed in between six nations match weekends.

The sport has done more than enough for the premiership clubs. They should be far more respectful of the international game that has kept afloat for so long.

Comical.

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nothing stopping the wru paying prl the money for release. And yes the clubs would survive. They'd cut their cloth appropriately. Just sour grapes by the sound of it.

Absolute rubbish, if the premiership clubs could survive and prosper without the millions generated by the rfu they would do so. Looking at the last finance report more clubs were still in the red with RFU money than those in the black.

If premiership clubs want to hire welsh players why should the wru be paying them ? The premiership clubs want to hire foreign players then they have to accept that as with all internationals those players will be unavailable to them when their nation calls.

Most of the time the welsh players are not even selected to play for their premiership clubs when they are required by the wru for international availability outside the test window.

It wasn’t long ago that there were no arranged matches during international periods.

Neither was it long ago that the international window wasn’t closed in between six nations match weekends.

The sport has done more than enough for the premiership clubs. They should be far more respectful of the international game that has kept afloat for so long.

RFU pays and the club releases for out of window access. Why should the WRU get the same for free outside of the agreed windows?

I take it you remember that it was the PRL fined Northampton RFC for agreeing to release George North because they had signed a full release for internationals Contract.

I do remember. I remember you coming out with much the same material then as well. I think we pointed out the same arguments too, but

The only difference this time around is the discussions on extending the international window. This is a good subject for discussion

The window has to move to four weeks else the game will dive further into insolvency

Welsh game maybe.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Welsh game maybe.

Why not other unions? Would make sense for the entire sport. The game needs revenue and this is where it comes from.

The English are fine. As you say they have rich owners.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The English are fine. As you say they have rich owners.

Pre-Covid only Exeter made a profit. The culmination of all the other clubs left. £33m debt.

I take it economics was not your strong point

I am not sure what your point is, other than English clubs are not making enough money so they should give away the use of some of their assets for nothing.

lostinwales wrote:I am not sure what your point is, other than English clubs are not making enough money so they should give away the use of some of their assets for nothing.

Point is they are subsidised by the international game and couldn’t exist without it.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The English are fine. As you say they have rich owners.

Pre-Covid only Exeter made a profit. The culmination of all the other clubs left. £33m debt.

I take it economics was not your strong point

Does it matter? Like you said so succinctly no clubs make a profit anyway, that's not the point so how does it change anything. If Wru don't want t0bpqy fair enough.btheyll get left behind. I don't care about that whatsoever.

Wales have called up Ulster’s Bradley Roberts, as cover for Ken Owens.

Sam Parry has to be injured. Even still, what must you be thinking if you’re somebody like Ifan Phillips.

42.ie wrote: Despite having lived in Ireland since 2017, Roberts isn’t Irish-qualified yet, although that’s down to misfortune as he returned to South Africa during the pandemic and couldn’t get a flight back to maintain his residency status. But, once he gets it sorted out – “we’re trying to get special dispensation,” he reveals – he has every intention of declaring for Ireland.

Don’t like the last bit either. Feels a bit Ben Teo for me.

https://www.the42.ie/ulster-bradley-roberts-5562780-Oct2021/?utm_source=shortlink

Wtf, never heard of him

On Ifan Phillips… the last couple times we played Ospreys he was made to look really average.