Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

How have some individuals got to the point where all they do is whinge and moan and complain about other people without any sense of compassion for those less well off than themselves through no fault of their own?

[Plunky]

Ignorant or naive? The term coloured is something more associated with America. It was never really a widespread term in the UK where we more often used the term "black"

Must be a regional thing. It was certainly widespread in the southwest of England when I was a kid. In fact the "correct" term went from black to colored and back to black again.

[super_realist]

I don't, but it doesn't have to be. There is no league table of offensive words but the implication was that you were a hypocrite for calling out the use  of a racially offensive word and then using one of your own. 
Why do they have to have the same level of offence for you to grasp what hypocrisy means?

[McLaren]

They came for black people. Super remained silent
They came for the gays. Super remained silent
They came for women. Super remained silent
They came for Trans people. Super remained silent.
They came for the gammons.......................  

[super_realist]

They came for black people. Super remained silent
They came for the gays. Super remained silent
They came for women. Super remained silent
They came for Trans people. Super remained silent.
They came for the gammons.......................  

Not at all Mac, just pointing out that its ridiculous for you to suggest everything needs an equivalence. 
You're as much of a gammon as anyone else anyway.

[McLaren]

The thing is no one on here can now claim ignorance around the use of "coloured". Will Navy, Ralph, Super, Davie etc now stop using the term? Or even better start to call out others who do?

[super_realist]

I don't think anyone is using the term, certainly no one here has so how could we call any one out on it? 
In the way Clarke used it it sounded more of a slip of the tongue than anything else. On the basis of that one soundbite alone its ridiculous to have to resign.

We have to stop this knee jerk reaction where if someone makes a single mistake they have to resign for it.

[JAS]

I don't think anyone is using the term, certainly no one here has so how could we call any one out on it? 
In the way Clarke used it it sounded more of a slip of the tongue than anything else. On the basis of that one soundbite alone its ridiculous to have to resign.

Aye but in PC utopia it was a racist slip of the tongue.

Maybe it was, you know if some people found it GENUINELY offensive then maybe there is a debate to keep being had about how we keep everybody up to date on what's offensive and what isn't. As usual Mac is faux-fended.

Personally I think there are far bigger issues that society and the media need to be chasing down. Like

1. As I would always state as number 1, the continued transfer of power, wealth and opportunity further and further into the hands of the few
2. Pissing away billions of tax payer money on lining the pockets of multinational consultancies (with a track record of failure) to give us a functioning test & trace system (which is further reinforcing the track record of failure message)
3. Identifying the rise of fascism and armed white supremacist militias in the US (lets not pretend that by the "supposed" election of Biden it will all go away)


Just random off the top of my head examples which are I would say are FAR more important to debate and resolve than nitpicking over a few words that somebody said that may offend some people....sheesh...talk about skewed priorities!!

[super_realist]

Careful Jas, I think nitpicking has racist connotations. Resign your membership of this board immediately

[Davie]

The thing is no one on here can now claim ignorance around the use of "coloured". Will Navy, Ralph, Super, Davie etc now stop using the term? Or even better start to call out others who do?

Where did I ever say I still use it?

[beninho]

I don't think anyone is using the term, certainly no one here has so how could we call any one out on it? 
In the way Clarke used it it sounded more of a slip of the tongue than anything else. On the basis of that one soundbite alone its ridiculous to have to resign.

We have to stop this knee jerk reaction where if someone makes a single mistake they have to resign for it.

If no one is using it, then people are in agreement that its wrong? If you look at the diversity of the England team you can see why it can be taken pretty badly. If you look at the DM column you can see he has said previous dubious statements. In the same meeting he said about Asians doing IT.

[super_realist]

Not necessarily. Words not being part of the vernacular doesn't imply they are wrong. 

Don't get me wrong, this is a term, largely American in basis and it is a term we no longer use because it has been  reclassified as racist, but we don't just stop using words because they are wrong. 

I did state though that in regards to this one instance it shouldn't be sufficient to pressure someone to resign, I was aware he'd made other statements which were also contentious. 

What is it with football governance? That boss of the players union was a tw@t too. Gordon Taylor

[navyblueshorts]

I don't think anyone is using the term, certainly no one here has so how could we call any one out on it? 
In the way Clarke used it it sounded more of a slip of the tongue than anything else. On the basis of that one soundbite alone its ridiculous to have to resign.

We have to stop this knee jerk reaction where if someone makes a single mistake they have to resign for it.

If no one is using it, then people are in agreement that its wrong? If you look at the diversity of the England team you can see why it can be taken pretty badly. If you look at the DM column you can see he has said previous dubious statements. In the same meeting he said about Asians doing IT.

What's clear is that no-one, ever, at all, should ever presume to use any sort of collective noun for a group of people. That includes the use of 'white'. Should make discussion of things interesting.

What's also clear is that there's a load of arrogant, sneering, superior people out there who assume a) that everyone who doesn't know/accept what they know/accept as true are clearly in the wrong and are therefore scum, and b) that those not in the know should somehow absorb the missing info from the ether around them.

No wonder we got Brexit and the U.S. got Trump.

[JAS]

Careful Jas, I think nitpicking has racist connotations. Resign your membership of this board immediately

Oh ok, sounds like I might have to file that next to fried chicken. Can somebody else corroborate or should I assume that if Super thinks it has racist connotations then it surely must have?

[super_realist]

Careful Jas, I think nitpicking has racist connotations. Resign your membership of this board immediately

Oh ok, sounds like I might have to file that next to fried chicken. Can somebody else corroborate or should I assume that if Super thinks it has racist connotations then it surely must have?

You need clarification from Woko Ono (Mac)

[superflyweight]

Middle aged male golfers showing themselves to be right at the cutting edge of promoting diversity and inclusion.

[super_realist]

Middle aged male golfers showing themselves to be right at the cutting edge of promoting diversity and inclusion.  

You forgot white Superfly.

Can you not see we are mocking Mac's fake and contrived wokeness rather than the actual use of the word?

[JAS]

I don't think anyone is using the term, certainly no one here has so how could we call any one out on it? 
In the way Clarke used it it sounded more of a slip of the tongue than anything else. On the basis of that one soundbite alone its ridiculous to have to resign.

We have to stop this knee jerk reaction where if someone makes a single mistake they have to resign for it.

If no one is using it, then people are in agreement that its wrong? If you look at the diversity of the England team you can see why it can be taken pretty badly. If you look at the DM column you can see he has said previous dubious statements. In the same meeting he said about Asians doing IT.

What's clear is that no-one, ever, at all, should ever presume to use any sort of collective noun for a group of people. That includes the use of 'white'. Should make discussion of things interesting.

What's also clear is that there's a load of arrogant, sneering, superior people out there who assume a) that everyone who doesn't know/accept what they know/accept as true are clearly in the wrong and are therefore scum, and b) that those not in the know should somehow absorb the missing info from the ether around them.

No wonder we got Brexit and the U.S. got Trump.

That's precisely what I was trying to say a couple of days ago Navy. You start demonising people for saying things that they don't realise are racist but somebody somewhere in a PC think tank bubble has deemed racist WILL lead to a backlash. Many in that situation will feel sleighted, intellectually inferior even, their minds will close and they will seek affinity with others with similar views and those views will harden. They will then feel emboldened when real racists reciprocate affinity and welcome new indoctrinable minds into the fold.

It leads to attitudes that fed the drift toward Trumpism & Brexit. Those are early signs of a serious rightward drift of the working class. If not stopped, the end result will be something a LOT worse.

The Left seriously need to wake up and focus on what they can ACTUALLY do for the real benefit of ordinary working people rather than focussing on clamping down on offence. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns.

[superflyweight]

Middle aged male golfers showing themselves to be right at the cutting edge of promoting diversity and inclusion.  

You forgot white Superfly.

Can you not see we are mocking Mac's fake and contrived wokeness rather than the actual use of the word?

I get that, and Mac's tendency to push things too far creates a situation in which these things can be laughed at. But that shouldn't deflect from the fact that Clarke displayed a complete lack of understanding of something which sits within his area of responsibility and it's right that he resigned.

Rather than be defensive because the issue may have exposed areas in whch we lack understanding on how to engage in these types of discussions, we, as middle aged men, probably need to be prepared to admit when we've got it wrong.

[super_realist]

I didnt get it wrong and nor did anyone on here.

In the context of what he was talking about it sounded very much like a slip of the tongue rather than him being a  latent racist. 

A simple apology would have been sufficient (without taking into consideration any other gaffes he may have made)

[beninho]

Its not a left or right issue is it? If ex black footballers such as lescott, onourha or onouha see an issue, maybe there was an issue.

It was clearly the wrong thing to say for the head of the FA. Unsure how its spiralled into more then that.

Don't call a group of black footballers coloured footballers. Pretty simple.

[beninho]

I have no issues looking down on people who say coloured people. I would say I'm definitely superior in at least one way.

[super_realist]

Its not a left or right issue is it? If ex black footballers such as lescott, onourha or onouha see an issue, maybe there was an issue.

It was clearly the wrong thing to say for the head of the FA. Unsure how its spiralled into more then that.

Don't call a group of black footballers coloured footballers. Pretty simple.

It was the wrong thing to say, the question is whether it was intentional, ignorance or simply a slip of the tongue and therefore was a resignation necessary on that quote alone?

[beninho]

Its not a left or right issue is it? If ex black footballers such as lescott, onourha or onouha see an issue, maybe there was an issue.

It was clearly the wrong thing to say for the head of the FA. Unsure how its spiralled into more then that.

Don't call a group of black footballers coloured footballers. Pretty simple.

It was the wrong thing to say, the question is whether it was intentional, ignorance or simply a slip of the tongue and therefore was a resignation necessary on that quote alone?

Think that quote, plus the Asian quote and previous quotes about racism claims being fluff. Plus issues with the Premier league plans all lead to his resignation. But I cant see how saying coloureds woukd have endeared him to black footballers playing for England.

[superflyweight]

His comments on girls playing in goal were also stupid as well.

[super_realist]

His comments on girls playing in goal were also stupid as well.  

Then isn't it surprising that he hasn't resigned or been fired before? His latest gaffe seemed a more innocent mistake to make in comparison to all the others he has done.

[beninho]

And being gay is a life choice.

He had a humdinger of a meeting.

[super_realist]

And being gay is a life choice.

He had a humdinger of a meeting.

I've tried to make it clear to you that I'm looking at that one quote in isolation and in the context of the subjects he was talking about at the time, and on that basis I could see it could be construed as a slip of the tongue. 

When you look at all the rest, he seems a fairly shiversome character and it's good he's gone.

[ralphjohn69]

The thing is no one on here can now claim ignorance around the use of "coloured". Will Navy, Ralph, Super, Davie etc now stop using the term? Or even better start to call out others who do?

I haven't ever used the term, no idea why you'd think I had? You don't half jump to some weird conclusions based on absolutely nothing.

[McLaren]

ralph

It's Masters week. All is forgiven.

[ralphjohn69]

OK, I'll accept your apology.

[McLaren]

Great win for Scotland.

But how sad is it that after such a brilliant save in penalty shoot out the keeper has to turn to the ref to check if VAR is going to kibosh the moment. I was a supporter of VAR but that was a sad moment for football.

[westisbest]

Yeah, well done to Scotland. Happy for them.

VAR I think is ruining football, especially the offside rule. Crazy.

[JAS]

Isn’t that now 9 unbeaten? When was the last time that happened?
So has Stevie Clarke got some decent managerial mojo or is he fortunate that the current crop of players are better than most squads of the last 20 years?
The national coefficient now must be in a place Super won’t be able to comprehend :-p

[super_realist]

9 games against pretty dire opposition or teams also struggling.

I actually watched the game last night and Scotland were not bad for 80 minutes, then inexplicably he took off Dykes and Christie who were the best players and then they took their foot off the gas and nearly blew it.
Why is Marshall only playing for Derby? He's better than that level.

I like Clarke for saying he didn't want to mange either half of the ugly sisters.

[JAS]

9 games against pretty dire opposition or teams also struggling.

I actually watched the game last night and Scotland were not bad for 80 minutes, then inexplicably he took off Dykes and Christie who were the best players and then they took their foot off the gas and nearly blew it.
Why is Marshall only playing for Derby? He's better than that level.

I like Clarke for saying he didn't want to mange either half of the ugly sisters.

Super they can only beat who is put in front of them, for the first time in many years they now seem to be able to do that with a bit more consistency. To be fair they are still a miserly low 45th in the world rankings so there has to be at least some validity in what you're saying.

I like Clarke, he'd done/was doing a decent job at Kilmarnock and making good progress so taking on the poison chalice of the international job was a gamble for him. Obviously at Chelsea he was able to feed off Jose and take on some of his knowledge.

Not sure what happened at West Brom, did they just not give him the time or resources?

Re the ugly sisters it's an easy thing to say if you haven't been offered. I suspect if Lennon bit the dust he'd be high on the wanted short list and knowing him he'd find that a lot harder to say No too than the Govan hot seat.

[super_realist]

45th is commendable for a country as bad as football as Scotland.
I think Clarke was quoted as saying the Old Firm was poisonous and that it wouldn't be on his agenda to manage either of them. 

If he has a decent showing at the Euro's he'll be able to get a better job than the Old Firm anyway and make a ton more money than what they'd pay.

[JAS]

45th is commendable for a country as bad as football as Scotland.
I think Clarke was quoted as saying the Old Firm was poisonous and that it wouldn't be on his agenda to manage either of them. 

If he has a decent showing at the Euro's he'll be able to get a better job than the Old Firm anyway and make a ton more money than what they'd pay.

Hmmm lets see what would happen if he's ever tapped. Like I said I don't think he'd have a problem saying no to Rangers. I also think they've kind of moved away somewhat from being as poisonous as they were. The biggest problem they have is the totally unrealistic expectation and maybe that was what he was meaning i.e. at Kilmarnock 3rd in the league would be classed as success whereas with an ugly sister 2nd is classified as failure. That is a corrosive level of expectation.

[super_realist]

Nah, they're still pretty hateful and cult like. 
A friend of mine is related to an ex manager through marriage and he wasn't even allowed to have a blue car as Celtic manager and wasn't permitted to be photographed with any of the opposition in a social sense. (Rangers must be livid their grass is green) 

The thing about the Old Firm is that they think they're significant in global football. They're largely irrelevant and are just one of many clubs with half decent histories. They go on about World Record league wins as if anyone cares, no decent team would swap their honours for SPL Championships

[navyblueshorts]

I have no issues looking down on people who say coloured people. I would say I'm definitely superior in at least one way.

[navyblueshorts]

Its not a left or right issue is it? If ex black footballers such as lescott, onourha or onouha see an issue, maybe there was an issue.

It was clearly the wrong thing to say for the head of the FA. Unsure how its spiralled into more then that.

Don't call a group of black footballers coloured footballers. Pretty simple.

It was the wrong thing to say, the question is whether it was intentional, ignorance or simply a slip of the tongue and therefore was a resignation necessary on that quote alone?

Think that quote, plus the Asian quote and previous quotes about racism claims being fluff. Plus issues with the Premier league plans all lead to his resignation. But I cant see how saying coloureds woukd have endeared him to black footballers playing for England.

FFS! You know what, this is fake. Want me to start censoring demonstrably fake posts a la Twitter etc?

[navyblueshorts]

Isn’t that now 9 unbeaten? When was the last time that happened?
So has Stevie Clarke got some decent managerial mojo or is he fortunate that the current crop of players are better than most squads of the last 20 years?
The national coefficient now must be in a place Super won’t be able to comprehend :-p

Didn't he do well at Newcastle before someone thought he wasn't box office enough and sacked him? Looks to me like he's someone who can actually manage footballers and get more than the sum of their parts out as a result.

[JAS]

This little odd piece turned up on my facebook feed this morning. I'd imagine before filming the conversation went like this

Danny Boyle: "Super, we need to give Renton a bit of a rant for the next scene"
Super: "Leave it with me Danny, I've got this"
a few minutes later
Super: "There you go Ewen, just shout that out"
Ewen McGregor: "FFS Super don't hold back eh!!"
Danny Boyle: "Perfect Super, you know that attitude will serve your character well on a message board in a few years time"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29-LRuuqFT0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR269eIWerqEg5goAQ2AfrXWSWO9kDnUurNTHbcBIXs7vRvgWAlFyR7cUIs

[McLaren]

Its not a left or right issue is it? If ex black footballers such as lescott, onourha or onouha see an issue, maybe there was an issue.

It was clearly the wrong thing to say for the head of the FA. Unsure how its spiralled into more then that.

Don't call a group of black footballers coloured footballers. Pretty simple.

It was the wrong thing to say, the question is whether it was intentional, ignorance or simply a slip of the tongue and therefore was a resignation necessary on that quote alone?

Think that quote, plus the Asian quote and previous quotes about racism claims being fluff. Plus issues with the Premier league plans all lead to his resignation. But I cant see how saying coloureds woukd have endeared him to black footballers playing for England.

FFS! You know what, this is fake. Want me to start censoring demonstrably fake posts a la Twitter etc?

Navy are you disputing that Greg Clarke used the term “coloured footballers”?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/nov/10/fa-chairman-greg-clarke-forced-to-apologise-after-using-the-term-coloured

[navyblueshorts]

Its not a left or right issue is it? If ex black footballers such as lescott, onourha or onouha see an issue, maybe there was an issue.

It was clearly the wrong thing to say for the head of the FA. Unsure how its spiralled into more then that.

Don't call a group of black footballers coloured footballers. Pretty simple.

It was the wrong thing to say, the question is whether it was intentional, ignorance or simply a slip of the tongue and therefore was a resignation necessary on that quote alone?

Think that quote, plus the Asian quote and previous quotes about racism claims being fluff. Plus issues with the Premier league plans all lead to his resignation. But I cant see how saying coloureds woukd have endeared him to black footballers playing for England.

FFS! You know what, this is fake. Want me to start censoring demonstrably fake posts a la Twitter etc?

Navy are you disputing that Greg Clarke used the term “coloured footballers”?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/nov/10/fa-chairman-greg-clarke-forced-to-apologise-after-using-the-term-coloured

Mind numbing. Truly mind numbing. Are you simply and wilfully ignoring the detail of the issue or are you so slapdash re. language that you think it doesn't matter? Admit it, you don't see any issue with "Panda: eats, shoots and leaves", do you?
Go and read - both what Ben has posted and what I've done so. Then have a good, hard think about what I'm saying. I'm afraid I agree w/ S_R - you either have a pretty impressive comprehension issue or you're demonstrating an amazing blind spot for anything that doesn't conform to your pre-conceived view. This isn't the first time. You bang on so much about science, evidence and the 'scientific method', but you're frankly incapable of applying that method without fear or favour to everything. It only suits when it supports your own position.

To be clear, really clear: Ben keeps saying that Clarke used the word "coloureds" as a free-standing group noun for black footballers. Sloppy? Or deliberately slanting the tenor of what Clarke says to justify his outrage and/or pre-set views? Anyway, Clarke didn't say that; he said "coloured footballers" - I never disputed that. The implication that he disparagingly referred to all black players as simply the "coloureds" is disingenuous and, I suggest, more derogatory than the apparent slight of "coloured footballers", especially given his explanation of where his phraseology derived from.

I'm done w/ this.

[McLaren]

I mean grammatically I get the difference but does it make as much difference to Bens point as you are making out?

He still uttered the words “coloured footballers”?

Secondly do you remember a few years back when Richard Dawkins was called out for trying to rate the severity of types of rapes? I see racist comments much like that, there is no point trying to work out just how hurtful slightly changing the phrasing or grammar is because the victims still feel like victims of a racist comment. You might think "coloureds" is worse than "coloured footballers" but it is not really for you to judge just how much worse one or the other is.

And if you want to apply the scientific method to this I suggest the closest we could get is looking at data on how this sort of language affects black people. I urge you to do so.

[super_realist]

Now you're trying to equate being r@ped to a verbal insult? Aren't you the one who likes to make an equivalence?

[McLaren]

Now you're trying to equate being r@ped to a verbal insult? Aren't you the one who likes to make an equivalence?

I am clearly not, I am saying both should not be ranked but rather assessed by the impact on the victim.

[super_realist]

Where's the fishing icon.

Is being called a c*nt worse than being called a nitwit? Impact of a word on a victim can't be measured Mac, it's subjective.

[McLaren]

Super

Did you get now tv then? You said you watched the Scotland match.

[super_realist]

It was on Freeview Mac.

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