Wales v England, Parc y Scarlets, 28th November 16:00

First topic message reminder :

England have been pretty comfortable so far clearly led by a set of forwards performing brilliantly. Breakdown, lineout, scrum, everything has been smooth and frankly dominant.

The backs continue to stutter looking for a bit of cohesion, perhaps unsurprisingly to an extent given there have been shuffles to selections. We've perhaps learnt that Furbank isnt good enough for international rugby and that having a winger play on the wing is sometimes a good thing. Obviously this means Jones will ignore that.

One guy completely set in stone is May who moved to joint second highest try scorer for England though. Always lightening but added so much to his game. Hes been relatively quiet this year but excellent yesterday. Quotes from Jones via  the bbc "The great thing is he is 30 and still improving,"
"There is no limit to where he can go. I don't think I have ever seen a player who is more professional in his preparation than Jonny. He is fast and elusive, at one stage it looked like he had spiders all over him."

He was always playing well when he got his england chance but obviously the best players continue to improve. You would normally say first name on the team sheet but theres about 5 of them at the moment.

Jones also said: 'We put ourselves in a good position to maybe go on and dominate. We didn't, but there is a lot more in us, which is pleasing," added Jones, who was named England head coach five years ago on Friday.

"Defence was pretty good but we are disappointed with the try at the end. We'd have liked to have a clean sheet, as they say in football, but we are improving. I particularly liked the ferocity of our ruck defence today."

"Wales is a massive game," added Jones. "If they have one game a year to save their season, it is against England. There is intense rivalry, the Scarlets' ground is an open one, so the elements will affect the game. It will be tough and we will pick our best 23 again."

Seems to me hes also a touch annoyed we didnt add more to the scoreboard and nil Ireland. Great defence clearly in the 2nd half but we struggled for field possession. The last sentence for me could be a bit misleading as it suggests the same team and bench for Wales, cant help but feel there'll be 2 or 3 changes though.


Again from the beeb it looks like Wales have a few injuries and doubts for the game: Tipuric was forced off the field in the second half, while Wales full-back Liam Williams also left the field with 15 stitches in his mouth after a stray boot but should be fit to face England. Wing Johnny McNicholl also departed with a rib cartilage issue.

Bath number eight Taulupe Faletau will be fit after recovering from injury, while Cardiff Blues back-rower Josh Navidi is battling to be in contention after missing the autumn programme so far with his own concussion issues.

Ross Moriarty is sidelined with an ankle problem.

Dragons back-rower Aaron Wainwright was handed the man-of-the-match accolade against Georgia after an impressive performance at number eight with Pivac believing this should be his long-term position.

"I personally like him at eight," added Pivac.

"I prefer him at eight to six. He gets his hands on the ball, he has very good acceleration out of the boot.

"You saw some of those skills tonight and I like him in that position."

Wales have an outside centre void to fill missing against England with Jonathan Davies set to miss the game with a knee problem. Johnny Williams impressed at inside centre on his debut.'

All set for a comfortable Wales win then.


Teams

Wales

TBC


England

Daly; Joseph, Slade, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Willis, Robson, Watson

How do Elias, Biggar and Faletau keep their places? I bet the bench is even worse.... Pivac has to go.

Needless to say, I hope Elias has a stormer, but I'm struggling to see it.

I dont have to complain about willis being left out this week.

15. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 45 caps)
14. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 53 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 32 caps)
12. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 86 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 59 caps)
10. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 102 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 62 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 52 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 38 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 41 caps)
5. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 67 caps)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 26 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 20 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 54 caps)

FINISHERS

16. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 21 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)
19. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 6 caps)
21. Jack Willis (Wasps, 1 cap)
22. Dan Robson (Wasps, 5 caps)
23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 44 caps)

Earl and Willis off the bench will be great to watch

BamBam wrote:Earl and Willis off the bench will be great to watch

Shame the backline won't be. As usual no weapons for Ford to use. Sure pack the backline for Farrell who won't use then but as soon as we have an attacking flyhalf then let's back the midfield with creative players that won't run a line for him. Ford will have to try and use Joseph off the wing a lot to get us going.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I dont have to complain about willis being left out this week.

But why would you complain. After all you can push a player while accepting the abilities others bring. To paraphrase

Willis being on the bench in place of Malins or Thorley is absurd. Looking at the Welsh pack we do not need a 6-2 split.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I dont have to complain about willis being left out this week.

But why would you complain. After all you can push a player while accepting the abilities others bring. To paraphrase

Ha. I'm just glad hes back in. Only another couple of chances now before he replaces Underhill.

That looks like a backline to continue the theme of kicking well to force pressure.

That pack is pretty scary though, especially the back row options, if Eddie wants to see Willis get some game time in this game, could he loan him to us for the afternoon

The 6-2 bench split as predicted. There really isn't much mystery about the way England are going to play anymore. It is very much a case of setting out the stall and saying 'Deal with this, if you can'. Despite all the joking, I do actually think we are a couple of injuries away from seeing Earl in the centres!

Like the starting team though, England always do better against Wales when Ford starts at 10. A quick scan says that when Ford has started against them England have won 6 and lost 1. When Farrell has started against them England have won 2 and lost 3.

Some stats:

CHAMPIONSHIP SO FAR

TOTAL POINTS: WALES 27, ENGLAND 58

TRIES: WALES 2, ENGLAND 8

CONVERSIONS: WALES 1, ENGLAND 6

PENALTIES: WALES 5, ENGLAND 2

METRES GAINED: WALES 537, ENGLAND 488

CARRIES: WALES 205, ENGLAND 176

PASSES MADE: WALES 300, ENGLAND 239

TACKLES MADE: WALES 232, ENGLAND 296

TACKLES MISSED: WALES 22, ENGLAND 23

TURNOVERS WON: WALES 19, ENGLAND 13

TURNOVERS CONCEDED: WALES 22, ENGLAND 24

PENALTIES CONCEDED: WALES 25, ENGLAND 18

https://www.wru.wales/overview/?FixGuid=20WE4555#overview

Wales: Halfpenny; Adams, Tompkins, J Williams, Rees-Zammit; Biggar, Lloyd Williams; W Jones, Elias, Lee, Ball, Alun Wyn Jones (capt), Lewis-Hughes, Botham, Faletau.

Replacements: Dee, Carre, Francis, Rowlands, Wainwright, Webb, Sheedy, Watkin.

Pivac can go regardless of the result, sorry not sorry. I think he can get a job as a coach elsewhere, but he isn't right for us.

mikey_dragon wrote:Pivac can go regardless of the result, sorry not sorry. I think he can get a job as a coach elsewhere, but he isn't right for us.

Quite reactionary based only on a team selection, I seem to remember Gatland regularly getting slated for team selections, Cuthbert, Priestland, Andrews etc.

Whilst there is by no means an obligation to support a coach, he has had little over 12 (of the craziest) months to get together a group of players and try to progress what was laid down by Gatland.

Apart from Biggar, who would you swap out Mikey?

Soul Requiem wrote:Willis being on the bench in place of Malins or Thorley is absurd. Looking at the Welsh pack we do not need a 6-2 split.

The plan seems to be to smash the Wales forwards unrelentingly for all 80 minutes. Genge, LCD, Hill, Willis and Earls off the bench against a tiring team that has had the England packs physical attention for the first hour is pretty brutal. The England pack dominated Ireland up front with physicality alone, mainly in defence, Wales struggled to match Ireland. 

I'm unsure what to expect from Wales but in current form the English bench would probably start for Wales. Certainly the front five replacements. England will have to be accurate in the kicking game because the Welsh back three will be quality and good in the air. Similarly we'll see some kicking come back at us as Daly isn't exactly unflappable is he and Joseph is playing out of position. If I was the Welsh 10 I'd be putting up kicks between the two of them with Liam Williams contesting to see if I could cause havoc. Edit - Just seen Williams omitted, so LRZ to contest? More pace but not the dominant skillset. Interesting.

For me England lack carrying ability in the backs so will have to get the job done up front and ugly. Realistically Ford has little options from 10. Had we had Slade on the bench Joseph and 14 and Cockansiga on the wing like many hoped then we could have seen some potential fireworks.

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Pivac can go regardless of the result, sorry not sorry. I think he can get a job as a coach elsewhere, but he isn't right for us.

Quite reactionary based only on a team selection, I seem to remember Gatland regularly getting slated for team selections, Cuthbert, Priestland, Andrews etc.

Whilst there is by no means an obligation to support a coach, he has had little over 12 (of the craziest) months to get together a group of players and try to progress what was laid down by Gatland.

Apart from Biggar, who would you swap out Mikey?

Based on his entire tenure including all squad and matchday selections which he never seems to get quite right. Clearly not a case of "the coach knowing best" either given the performances of some individuals and the results .
Not really interested in reading excuses, everyone else has these torrid circumstances and I've already acknowledged the union also being at fault. I already said who I would swap out before the match.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Willis being on the bench in place of Malins or Thorley is absurd. Looking at the Welsh pack we do not need a 6-2 split.

The plan seems to be to smash the Wales forwards unrelentingly for all 80 minutes. Genge, LCD, Hill, Willis and Earls off the bench against a tiring team that has had the England packs physical attention for the first hour is pretty brutal. The England pack dominated Ireland up front with physicality alone, mainly in defence, Wales struggled to match Ireland. 

That's my point somewhat, we dominated the Ireland pack without the 6-2 split and now we're playing an inferior pack I don't see the need. South Africa is the only time it should be used.

Ford back in the England team, Lawrence injured i suppose. Looking forward to LRZ-MAY show down. Strong looking team for England.

Regard's Wales i take it Liam Williams is not Fit with Half Penny being in at full back.
AWJ back in the squad thought he was injured to be honest.

mikey_dragon wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Pivac can go regardless of the result, sorry not sorry. I think he can get a job as a coach elsewhere, but he isn't right for us.

Quite reactionary based only on a team selection, I seem to remember Gatland regularly getting slated for team selections, Cuthbert, Priestland, Andrews etc.

Whilst there is by no means an obligation to support a coach, he has had little over 12 (of the craziest) months to get together a group of players and try to progress what was laid down by Gatland.

Apart from Biggar, who would you swap out Mikey?

Based on his entire tenure including all squad and matchday selections which he never seems to get quite right. Clearly not a case of "the coach knowing best" either given the performances of some individuals and the results .
Not really interested in reading excuses, everyone else has these torrid circumstances and I've already acknowledged the union also being at fault. I already said who I would swap out before the match.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so confrontational, I guess just differing opinions. I'm still a huge fan of Faletau, I actually think he was one of the few players to come out of the Ireland game in credit. I would have had Wainwright and Lewis- Hughes on the flanks.

LRZ, Jones, Lee, Ball and the centre pairing starting appear to be changes that most players wanted.

Surely getting a selection right can only be assessed after the game?

Looks a bit like a pack selected to really give the Welsh a good going over in the forwards, wonder if he's trying to set down a marker for future games of more importance

Soul Requiem wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:Willis being on the bench in place of Malins or Thorley is absurd. Looking at the Welsh pack we do not need a 6-2 split.

The plan seems to be to smash the Wales forwards unrelentingly for all 80 minutes. Genge, LCD, Hill, Willis and Earls off the bench against a tiring team that has had the England packs physical attention for the first hour is pretty brutal. The England pack dominated Ireland up front with physicality alone, mainly in defence, Wales struggled to match Ireland. 

That's my point somewhat, we dominated the Ireland pack without the 6-2 split and now we're playing an inferior pack I don't see the need. South Africa is the only time it should be used.

Did the 6-3 split? England could hardly get the ball in the second half. Could be considered a lesson learnt by Jones? I suspect the pack was absolutely goosed after all the tackles they put in against Ireland. Maybe collectively its felt that a fresh pair of legs in the pack for the last 20 has more value than the outside backs who rarely see the ball and wont have to worry about tackling the opposition full back in this game since hes just there to take the goal kicks (apparently)

Its not like they are short on cover across the backs, and theres always the mythical option of a forward at being a crashball 12. As he hasn't picked a physical back that seems more likely to happen.


The surprise really has to be Joseph continuing on the wing with two established specialists now fully fit. He obviously rates Joseph a lot, but I thought moving him back to 13 was more likely. Watsons flexibility to cover lots of positions makes him a very handy guy to have in the 23 but maybe he and Cokasinga aren't quite sharp or fully in tune with the side yet. I suppose its consistent with Ford working his way back from the bench


The most controversial pick here really has to be continuing with

The most controversial pick here really has to be continuing with


WHO?

I would also add that Biggar, Faletau and Halfpenny are in there because of the relative inexperienced players around them, in SLH, Botham, Johnny Williams and LRZ. We know England kick a lot and do it very well, so once Sanjay was ruled out, having your best defensive fullback there makes sense.

The contrast in back row goes to show how injuries and illness have played their part. If everyone was fit I would name Tipuric, Jenkins, Moriarty, Navidi, Griffiths, Basham and McCleod as all more likely players to start at the beginning of the autumn matches on the flank.

Reported that Liam Williams has not got over his facial injury. 15 stitches courtesy (I assume) of the Georgians. I can't remember what happened but then I fell asleep while watching that game.

Don't know much about some of the newer Welsh players in the pack, who will the main ball carriers be? Faletau always makes yards but isn't a bruising carrier, while Ball can do some of that in the tight, but are any of the others likely to make an impact there?

If not, and the England back row starts knocking them down on or behind the gain line then its going to be a long day for Wales going backwards with the line speed our forwards have shown.

I feel Pivac is putting a lot of pressure on certain players, like Biggar and especially Elias. The whole rubbish about picking the scrummaging hooker and highlighting three lineouts being lost whilst Dee was on, was a bit of an unnecessary dig at Dee too and I would question then, why he hasn’t got Sam Parry in the 23. Also, if we are targeting the scrum above all else, why would you then pick Rhys Carre as a replacement?

The more I hear from Pivac, the more I see him as a bluffer.

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Pivac can go regardless of the result, sorry not sorry. I think he can get a job as a coach elsewhere, but he isn't right for us.

Quite reactionary based only on a team selection, I seem to remember Gatland regularly getting slated for team selections, Cuthbert, Priestland, Andrews etc.

Whilst there is by no means an obligation to support a coach, he has had little over 12 (of the craziest) months to get together a group of players and try to progress what was laid down by Gatland.

Apart from Biggar, who would you swap out Mikey?

Based on his entire tenure including all squad and matchday selections which he never seems to get quite right. Clearly not a case of "the coach knowing best" either given the performances of some individuals and the results .
Not really interested in reading excuses, everyone else has these torrid circumstances and I've already acknowledged the union also being at fault. I already said who I would swap out before the match.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so confrontational, I guess just differing opinions. I'm still a huge fan of Faletau, I actually think he was one of the few players to come out of the Ireland game in credit. I would have had Wainwright and Lewis- Hughes on the flanks.

LRZ, Jones, Lee, Ball and the centre pairing starting appear to be changes that most players wanted.

Surely getting a selection right can only be assessed after the game?

You didn't, I'm used to particular folk (an individual) being more confrontational on here when people disagree with him. I am a little annoyed at Welsh rugby on the whole though, not just Pivac. Faletau hasn't been up to much, but I'm also hopeful he can return. It's a shame Navidi is unavailable. I would agree with your flanks as that's all we have available. We have a good player in Cory Hill however, who could switch to blindside - I'm not sure why we're reluctant to try it. Botham is an odd one, just being promoted to Blues and now he's a bit of a Wales regular. Of course, if Pivac had selected an open-side besides James Davies then we wouldn't be in this situation.

I think those selections are spot on.

Well we've been assessing it for a while now. Pivac hasn't helped himself with picking James Davies, Dillon Lewis, etc. I'm not sure what he sees in Elias as of late, and why he's such a huge fan of Biggar regardless of his form or injuries. With regards to that position, it could have been helped by selecting Jarrod Evans over Patchell the walking injury.

RiscaGame wrote:I feel Pivac is putting a lot of pressure on certain players, like Biggar and especially Elias. The whole rubbish about picking the scrummaging hooker and highlighting three lineouts being lost whilst Dee was on, was a bit of an unnecessary dig at Dee too and I would question then, why he hasn’t got Sam Parry in the 23. Also, if we are targeting the scrum above all else, why would you then pick Rhys Carre as a replacement?

The more I hear from Pivac, the more I see him as a bluffer.

Good god did he actually come out with this?

Carre isn't far off, just seemed to be too low and have his arm in the wrong place. You'd think this can be worked on, maybe not.

Why would you leave a player in the team ( Hooker) for example who cannot it a barn door when throwing into the line out?

Surely any decent coach would replace him and send him back to his club to work on his throwing. right.

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:I feel Pivac is putting a lot of pressure on certain players, like Biggar and especially Elias. The whole rubbish about picking the scrummaging hooker and highlighting three lineouts being lost whilst Dee was on, was a bit of an unnecessary dig at Dee too and I would question then, why he hasn’t got Sam Parry in the 23. Also, if we are targeting the scrum above all else, why would you then pick Rhys Carre as a replacement?

The more I hear from Pivac, the more I see him as a bluffer.

Good god did he actually come out with this?

Carre isn't far off, just seemed to be too low and have his arm in the wrong place. You'd think this can be worked on, maybe not.

He probably did have the wrong end of a referee’s interpretation, but obviously it’s going to be hard to change the mindset of refs now (IMO). I did also mean to discuss the lock selection too, seeing as we are going for a scrummaging side.

RiscaGame wrote:I feel Pivac is putting a lot of pressure on certain players, like Biggar and especially Elias. The whole rubbish about picking the scrummaging hooker and highlighting three lineouts being lost whilst Dee was on, was a bit of an unnecessary dig at Dee too and I would question then, why he hasn’t got Sam Parry in the 23. Also, if we are targeting the scrum above all else, why would you then pick Rhys Carre as a replacement?

The more I hear from Pivac, the more I see him as a bluffer.

I think those guys will really know that the pressure is on them. Biggar has been phenomenal under the high ball, you can bet there will be a lot more on Saturday, so if we can dominate in the air a bit more then it could work, although personally I'd have gone with Sheedy.

Elias was a name that many were pushing as the successor to Owens last Autumn, what worries me is that far from being just an off day against Ireland, Scarlets fans admit that his throwing is a real area of weakness. Again, I'd have gone with Dee.

RiscaGame wrote:I feel Pivac is putting a lot of pressure on certain players, like Biggar and especially Elias. The whole rubbish about picking the scrummaging hooker and highlighting three lineouts being lost whilst Dee was on, was a bit of an unnecessary dig at Dee too and I would question then, why he hasn’t got Sam Parry in the 23. Also, if we are targeting the scrum above all else, why would you then pick Rhys Carre as a replacement?

The more I hear from Pivac, the more I see him as a bluffer.

Then he went on to say that the set piece was a lot better against Georgia.

Am i mistaken here did Aaron Wainwright get Man of the Match last week. Why is he not in the starting 15 for this week

Bets on Earl playing at inside centre for the last few minutes?

I'd love to see it, just so we can shout about a Welsh forward getting dumped on his backside by a centre

lostinwales wrote:Bets on Earl playing at inside centre for the last few minutes?

Nice if he can multitask.

lostinwales wrote:Reported that Liam Williams has not got over his facial injury. 15 stitches courtesy (I assume) of the Georgians. I can't remember what happened but then I fell asleep while watching that game.

Yeah did not notice him getting hurt, but I too has zoned out. When they said it was a facial injury, I thought he had cut himself shaving.

Thing is that Underhill will get subbed. Billy and Curry usually don't. So either they won't get subbed and Earl plays at centre, or Earl or Curry end up at 8.

Reckon it’s the latter, and a Willis, Earl, Curry back row finishes the game

Eddie up to his usual mischief

https://twitter.com/chjones9/status/1331980274893250562?s=21

RiscaGame wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:I feel Pivac is putting a lot of pressure on certain players, like Biggar and especially Elias. The whole rubbish about picking the scrummaging hooker and highlighting three lineouts being lost whilst Dee was on, was a bit of an unnecessary dig at Dee too and I would question then, why he hasn’t got Sam Parry in the 23. Also, if we are targeting the scrum above all else, why would you then pick Rhys Carre as a replacement?

The more I hear from Pivac, the more I see him as a bluffer.

Good god did he actually come out with this?

Carre isn't far off, just seemed to be too low and have his arm in the wrong place. You'd think this can be worked on, maybe not.

He probably did have the wrong end of a referee’s interpretation, but obviously it’s going to be hard to change the mindset of refs now (IMO). I did also mean to discuss the lock selection too, seeing as we are going for a scrummaging side.

I think what we were both getting at is Pivac not making any sense. Not only has Elias been absolutely shocking at lineout throwing over 3 games, he's also been part of a front-row that keeps getting mashed. Dee was neither of those yet Pivac suggests he's a poor thrower. As for locks, well it might be time to start bringing off AWJ, or putting him on the bench, with Ball and Rowlands starting. I'm not sure who will be captain though as we begin the phase-out.

BamBam wrote:I'd love to see it, just so we can shout about a Welsh forward getting dumped on his backside by a centre

If Earl moves to centre then Wales will probably score a rare try.

BamBam wrote:Eddie up to his usual mischief

https://twitter.com/chjones9/status/1331980274893250562?s=21

I like the idea of name your team 2 hours before. I was brought up a football fan so always seemed odd to me the 48 hours rule.

This will be like a training ground game. Good job the surroundings match the occasion!

TightHEAD wrote:This will be like a training ground game. Good job the surroundings match the occasion!

Its better than Bath squatting on the local park

So, this is apparently (with 807) the most capped starting XV England have ever fielded. At an average age of just under 28 not an old team either.

We do play more tests now but impressive

TightHEAD wrote:This will be like a training ground game. Good job the surroundings match the occasion!

Although i am expecting/hoping England win with a decent score line. I do hope Wales do put England under a bit of pressure ( make a game of it) and not just turn up.

It isn't that long ago that England would be travelling to Wales more in hope than expectation. Things change.

LondonTiger wrote:So, this is apparently (with 807) the most capped starting XV England have ever fielded. At an average age of just under 28 not an old team either.

Could conceivably be the bulk of the squad we take to the next world cup as well. We saw the benefit of experience back in 2003.

I'm hoping we come at Wales with some ambition and take them to task. Not for this game but because traveling to Wales has been tough for England. The Welsh on home soil have a bit of an aura about themselves, away from home you fancy your chances quite a bit more. A really good result here might help strip back some of fortress mentality of going to Wales. Increase the likelihood of a win there again in the 6N early next year.