Wales v England, Parc y Scarlets, 28th November 16:00

First topic message reminder :

England have been pretty comfortable so far clearly led by a set of forwards performing brilliantly. Breakdown, lineout, scrum, everything has been smooth and frankly dominant.

The backs continue to stutter looking for a bit of cohesion, perhaps unsurprisingly to an extent given there have been shuffles to selections. We've perhaps learnt that Furbank isnt good enough for international rugby and that having a winger play on the wing is sometimes a good thing. Obviously this means Jones will ignore that.

One guy completely set in stone is May who moved to joint second highest try scorer for England though. Always lightening but added so much to his game. Hes been relatively quiet this year but excellent yesterday. Quotes from Jones via  the bbc "The great thing is he is 30 and still improving,"
"There is no limit to where he can go. I don't think I have ever seen a player who is more professional in his preparation than Jonny. He is fast and elusive, at one stage it looked like he had spiders all over him."

He was always playing well when he got his england chance but obviously the best players continue to improve. You would normally say first name on the team sheet but theres about 5 of them at the moment.

Jones also said: 'We put ourselves in a good position to maybe go on and dominate. We didn't, but there is a lot more in us, which is pleasing," added Jones, who was named England head coach five years ago on Friday.

"Defence was pretty good but we are disappointed with the try at the end. We'd have liked to have a clean sheet, as they say in football, but we are improving. I particularly liked the ferocity of our ruck defence today."

"Wales is a massive game," added Jones. "If they have one game a year to save their season, it is against England. There is intense rivalry, the Scarlets' ground is an open one, so the elements will affect the game. It will be tough and we will pick our best 23 again."

Seems to me hes also a touch annoyed we didnt add more to the scoreboard and nil Ireland. Great defence clearly in the 2nd half but we struggled for field possession. The last sentence for me could be a bit misleading as it suggests the same team and bench for Wales, cant help but feel there'll be 2 or 3 changes though.


Again from the beeb it looks like Wales have a few injuries and doubts for the game: Tipuric was forced off the field in the second half, while Wales full-back Liam Williams also left the field with 15 stitches in his mouth after a stray boot but should be fit to face England. Wing Johnny McNicholl also departed with a rib cartilage issue.

Bath number eight Taulupe Faletau will be fit after recovering from injury, while Cardiff Blues back-rower Josh Navidi is battling to be in contention after missing the autumn programme so far with his own concussion issues.

Ross Moriarty is sidelined with an ankle problem.

Dragons back-rower Aaron Wainwright was handed the man-of-the-match accolade against Georgia after an impressive performance at number eight with Pivac believing this should be his long-term position.

"I personally like him at eight," added Pivac.

"I prefer him at eight to six. He gets his hands on the ball, he has very good acceleration out of the boot.

"You saw some of those skills tonight and I like him in that position."

Wales have an outside centre void to fill missing against England with Jonathan Davies set to miss the game with a knee problem. Johnny Williams impressed at inside centre on his debut.'

All set for a comfortable Wales win then.


Teams

Wales

TBC


England

Daly; Joseph, Slade, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Willis, Robson, Watson

hugehandoff wrote:Eng V Fra a bit like Saracens and Exeter against French clubs in Europe...as Englishman obviously want them to do well, but as lovers of rugby we really don't mind seeing them lose to some more expansive and risk taking flair.

Eng are so powerful and so dull and if we beat Fra it might just reinforce this dullness for the next few years. Hoping that EJ and the coaches have something a bit more up their sleeve for next week. Otherwise I don't really mind seeing Fra win.

I think Jones is doing what he always does; building towards the next RWC. He is using this meaningless tournament and will use the 6Ns in the same way as a series of training runs. At the moment he is not concentrating on attack and it shows. He can do this and keep his job because truth is that even without working on attack England can ease past the rest of the 6N with the possible exception of France.

Disagree there. I don’t think you can compare a ruck clear out

Out of interest why?

I did say (or at least imply) that the results could easily be very close even though England would likely be better in most (if not every) department.

Game was terrible though. I think we can all agree on that. To be honest we haven't had many good games between England and Wales recently, but the atmosphere and rivalry do make up for that somewhat. This game more than any we have really missed the crowds.

Not that it is relevant to the laws it is worth pointing out that atl east Underhill's tackle on Biggar was safe, well as safe as any tackle he makes is.

Soul Requiem wrote:
Disagree there. I don’t think you can compare a ruck clear out

Out of interest why?

Because I believe that people’s heads will generally be lower in rucks, as a rule (jackals etc) and people tend to be a bit lower to clear out rucks. So if there is accidental head contact, it’s probably less of an impact or because of body positions.

It’s all moot anyway. It may get cited (probably won’t) and it won’t result in a ban as it would be deemed a yellow at worst. I really don’t want to labour the point too much, as I believe England had the ascendency regardless of what decisions may have gone Wales’ way. I also did highlight I believed SLH should’ve got yellowed despite England’s first try, as he did play the ball off his feet and thus slow it illegally, so believe I’m being balanced and all that good stuff.

Appreciate the discussion on here though, as I think it’s very respectful of opinions etc.

RiscaGame wrote:Appreciate the discussion on here though, as I think it’s very respectful of opinions etc.

To be fair, I think both teams have quite a bit to improve. Our rivalries right now are nearly as good as when we are playing in a more meaningful tournament, with fans in the stands, and when both teams are on the up.

If I want to see middling Rugby I can watch my Saints play...........

As a Dragons supporter, I can’t sympathise sorry. It could be worse

Wales needed to win today for 2 reasons. (1) the last 2  times England have played Wales in Wales Wales have won both games, so they was hoping to make it 3 in a row.
(2) to give the fans and themselves belief that they are now coming out of the rut they have been in.

To be honest every body expected Wales to put up one hell of a fight especially against England. But the way Wales started actually ( shocked ) England. it slightly in my opinion put England off their stride. When Wales scored that first try England realised they was in a game here.

It was penalties at the scrum that put Wales on the losing side. although it looked like comfortable win for England  in the end, it was a real slog and they had to fight real hard for it , but a win is a win and we move to next week for the final.

RiscaGame wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:
Disagree there. I don’t think you can compare a ruck clear out

Out of interest why?

Because I believe that people’s heads will generally be lower in rucks, as a rule (jackals etc) and people tend to be a bit lower to clear out rucks. So if there is accidental head contact, it’s probably less of an impact or because of body positions.

It’s all moot anyway. It may get cited (probably won’t) and it won’t result in a ban as it would be deemed a yellow at worst. I really don’t want to labour the point too much, as I believe England had the ascendency regardless of what decisions may have gone Wales’ way. I also did highlight I believed SLH should’ve got yellowed despite England’s first try, as he did play the ball off his feet and thus slow it illegally, so believe I’m being balanced and all that good stuff.

Appreciate the discussion on here though, as I think it’s very respectful of opinions etc.

I don't think I see the differentiation myself but tackles tend to be seen in slow mo more than clearouts.

Astonishingly bad decision from Poite on Biggar - it amazes me that he's seen as an international standard ref.

Fair play to Wales - some sectors of the media were getting a bit carried away in predicting an England humping and as expected Wales put up a hell of a fight.

Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

RDW wrote:Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

Maybe Jones thinks he needs more running so figures it's the best way to get it done.

England seem to not worry about the margin. I think if there were fans they'd get a few more if they wanted. Have to wonder if Wales can get up for the Italy game after this week.

LondonTiger wrote:I am not willing to go back and re-read this thred, but I do hope that some of teh English fans who were suggesting this would be a cake walk have come back and eaten some humble pie.

It was a cakewalk, even though England got their tactics wrong and kicked from hand far too frequently.

208 more metres gained, 59% possession, 65% territory, dominated the scrum and line-out and breakdown, and conceded five fewer penalties.

Margin of 11 points is very generous to Wales - Farrell missed three kicks worth eight points, and Wales were gifted seven points by English error.

Other than the try that Wales did score, down to a slow kick by Slade, a fortuitous piece of 'handling' by Biggar and Williams being sharp, Wales never remotely looked like scoring another.

In Eddie we trust.

First Trump now Pivac. What is it with Sore losers. Just get on with it.

RDW wrote:Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

If you cast your mind back 2000/2003/2004 Steve thomson England's hooker at the time often ended up on the wing. Maybe it is an England thing, it worked alright then why can it not work now?

RDW wrote:Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

It's a strange one. I wondered if it was trying to free up the back row to carry when coming back against the grain. Often a back row will play out wide to help secure ball when teams go wide. With England lacking carriers in the backs it might be an attempt to use George, who is mobile and a good rucker, to secure ball when backs take contact on one wing. Which in turn frees up a back row to carry when England switch the attack and come back the other way. George seems to be receiving the ball and taking contact himself more than he has been clearing out as a support player though, which isn't particularly potent. George is a fantastic hooker and has many skills but carrying and offloading like Dane Coles or Asafo Aumua isn't one of them.

In terms of attacking play since the restart we have learned that Lawrence's power and running lines can be effective at the next level. We've also seen that Underhill is still improving his carrying and running lines, which is great to see.

Outside of that I don't think the attacking play has shown anything new, or frankly interesting, in 3 games.

That's my only thought - they want a physical presence out wide and he frees up the back row. He does seem to be the go to man in the wide attack though.

I suppose Dane Coles fills a similar role.

Brendan wrote:

RDW wrote:Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

Maybe Jones thinks he needs more running so figures it's the best way to get it done.

England seem to not worry about the margin.  I think if there were fans they'd get a few more if they wanted.  Have to wonder if Wales can get up for the Italy game after this week.

Oh c'mon lads. Do you really want Anthony Watson, Johnathan Joseph or Elliot Daly, let alone Jack Nowell (when healthy) slowing things down on the wing? Or an Olympic sprinter like Jamie George?

OK, that was just a wee bit tongue-in-cheek. But other teams do it from time to time. The ABs sometimes have a second row or back row out there, and I have seen the same from other teams as well. It did seem more common today and last week. I wonder if Eddie is looking for a physical mismatch on the wing? Good point of discussion.

doctor_grey wrote:

Brendan wrote:

RDW wrote:Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

Maybe Jones thinks he needs more running so figures it's the best way to get it done.

England seem to not worry about the margin.  I think if there were fans they'd get a few more if they wanted.  Have to wonder if Wales can get up for the Italy game after this week.

Oh c'mon lads.  Do you really want Anthony Watson, Johnathan Joseph or Elliot Daly, let alone Jack Nowell (when healthy) slowing things down on the wing?  Or an Olympic sprinter like Jamie George?  

OK, that was just a wee bit tongue-in-cheek.  But other teams do it from time to time.  The ABs sometimes have a second row or back row out there, and I have seen the same from other teams as well.  It did seem more common today and last week.  I wonder if Eddie is looking for a physical mismatch on the wing?   Good point of discussion.

Many teams play with forwards out wide as a standard practice in attack. We've discussed recently on an England thread the NZ back row of McCaw, Kaino and Read that famously played with Kaino and Read out wide then McCaw filling in everything between. If a back carried into contact Kaino or Read basically guaranteed quick ball. If Kaino or Read were one on one with a winger they'd often get an offload away. Very effective but it helps that Kaino and Read at their best were exceptional attackers, plus McCaw was of course a outstanding in terms of the work he got through in every game to hit an absurd number of attacking rucks.

Dane Coles at his best (like many players plagued by injury his game has adapted with the layoffs so he's a different hooker now albeit still a good one) was capable of breaking tackles like a number 8 in those channels and he has very good hands to release others. Asafo Aumua is a freak in those channels, if/when he breaks past Coles or Codie Taylor with the ABs we could see some very fun tries.

Retallick is very good out wide for the ABs but he's another guy in the freakish athlete category. Lawes has made good yards out wide when covering blindside for England. Itoje can also be powerful out wide - his half break, pass to Brown, then Watson scoring against Wales for instance. I wonder if they are reluctant to have Itoje hanging on a wing though given he is regarded as being excellent at clearing rucks to secure clean ball.

Basically I don't doubt that having a forward playing out wide can be very effective, just that for all his many strengths I'm not sure George is quite suited to the role!

Brendan wrote:

RDW wrote:Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

Maybe Jones thinks he needs more running so figures it's the best way to get it done.

England seem to not worry about the margin.  I think if there were fans they'd get a few more if they wanted.  Have to wonder if Wales can get up for the Italy game after this week.

Well, we didn’t really get up for this one so who knows. To be honest this ‘getting up for’ thing is a bit of a myth. It’s just something written as a disingenuous way of attributing any Wales win over England, I.e. the only possible reason Wales might win is because they somehow summoned some extra magical strength v England rather than, on the day, just being better or scoring more points. In reality Wales are like any other team in that they have good and bad days where it either goes for us or doesn’t. Other teams have managed to ‘get up’ for England too (South Africa in the World Cup, anyone?) but you only ever hear it in reference to Wales.

RiscaGame wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

BamBam wrote:He brought both arms up to wrap, it's not even a penalty!

Does “wrapping your arms” matter, if you connect with a chin? That’s a genuine question.

I did similar to LT, was concerned it was a shoulder charge without any arms watching it live but the slow mo showed a clear attempt to wrap the arms. As a result I didn't even notice whether there was a problem with shoulder to the chin.

I don't know the rule either - if the arms are wrapped around the upper chest like so many tackles are, surely there has to be some contact to the chin?

This is why I would go yellow as he goes chest height and catches Adams on the chin, so it’s not shoulder direct to head. But as there is contact, it has to be penalised in some way and I believe yellow is fair.

So the same as the numerous ruck clearouts through any match?

Also didnt look at all like he connected with the chin, the chaps neck just snapped back in contact. Pivac didnt even mention it in his post game moan, it was total non event.

He did mention it

Daly tackle?

"The question is whether he used an arm in the tackle.

"I'd have to have a good look at that to say."

OK he spoke on it in a non comital way it when the interviewer specifically bought it up, the rant he gave about the ref didnt mention it...that was about him overuling the TMO and the scrum. . It wasn't something they'd even thought was an issue at the time, just like the officials. Just the TV people looking for a story, wasnt high, wasnt illegal wont get cited.

I'm mildly surprised at the ire directed towards Poite. Will have to rewatch it today as I was attempting to catch up with some mates on zoom at the same time so issues may have passed me by. A lot of crazies on twitter getting at Genge for a head butt that didnt seem to happen as well. Think it was Farrell a couple of years ago that got similar from a duff camera angle.

Loving all the bitterness on social media, someone needs to tell Welsh rugby and it's fans that this is rugby, not football.

Stop acting like Trump and accept the defeat.

It will be a travesty if AWJ goes on the Lions tour. He is cooked and its time to seek out a career in the media.

Maro made him look every year he is. Old and slow. Happens to us all.

Stuart Hooper should be coaching England.

Tom Dunn got too many minutes in his bench appearances.

Ben Spencer has a worse pass than Ben Youngs.

Rhys Priestland has to tour with the Lions.

TightHEAD wrote:It will be a travesty if AWJ goes on the Lions tour. He is cooked and its time to seek out a career in the media.

Maro made him look every year he is. Old and slow. Happens to us all.

That isn't a fair comparison. Itoje is a unique player and would be an automatic pick for the next game vs Mars.

We also need 2 locks. I do think there are better options than AWJ but I would not express it like you have.

Why hold back, there is little room for sentiment in Pro sport.

AWJ was a great player but he is only picking up caps because he is AWJ. Time to step aside. No way would he be picked for the Lions based on form, not if you are serious about winning.

Interestingly AWJ was top tackler yesterday with 15. Most turnovers conceded......Maro Itoje!

I agree Maro is awesome though. And is the future. AWJ wouldn’t be in my Lions test side. Still think he’s decent though and perhaps could do a role in the midweek sides.

I felt AWJ looked tired and as though he had a huge weight on his shoulders. He had the air of a gambler whose luck had run out and every bet he placed at the tables was a losing one. As for the Lions I feel he should tour, but not as a player - more as a consultant to the players. His experience would be invaluable - I just feel that he has been overtaken now in the playing stakes. The Lions is about the very best in the British Isles, and based on current form, he'd be about 7th or 8th.

I thought Poite had an absolute shocker of a game. Wales raised their game as always against England, but it wasn't enough, even against our stuttering back line.

doctor_grey wrote:

Brendan wrote:

RDW wrote:Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

Maybe Jones thinks he needs more running so figures it's the best way to get it done.

England seem to not worry about the margin.  I think if there were fans they'd get a few more if they wanted.  Have to wonder if Wales can get up for the Italy game after this week.

Oh c'mon lads.  Do you really want Anthony Watson, Johnathan Joseph or Elliot Daly, let alone Jack Nowell (when healthy) slowing things down on the wing?  Or an Olympic sprinter like Jamie George?  

OK, that was just a wee bit tongue-in-cheek.  But other teams do it from time to time.  The ABs sometimes have a second row or back row out there, and I have seen the same from other teams as well.  It did seem more common today and last week.  I wonder if Eddie is looking for a physical mismatch on the wing?   Good point of discussion.

Welcome back Doc, you have been missed on here. I hope all is well with you and yours and you not eating too much apple crumble.

Disappointing performance from England, but they never looked like they were going to lose it. I don't understand what happened to Daly, he was his usual self, spilling or losing every contested kick for 60 minutes, then suddenly it seamed dawn on him how to actual get his not insubstantial frame in the right position and he caught 4 on the trot. Still if it was a one off, the heir apparent is back and playing, bu the time we get around to the 6 Nations again he will hopefully be back into some sort of form.

I have to disagree with your comments about Ford, it seemed to me that everyone was lining up flat outside him and no-one making any effort to run any lines off him, he made two or three half breaks and there was no-one in support, he still managed to avoid being turned over though. That wouldn't have happened a year or so ago.

Farrell was poor, both kicking and ball in hand, but then again where were the runners coming back on the inside or for the crash ball, Daly seemed to think the back line was contagious and was scared to get to close.

Completely agree with you on your comments about Lawes, he is the complete lock these days, Launchbury is also excellent, but lacks the finer things that Lawes brings to the side as well as those thumping tacklers. I was watching Hill when he came on, he could end up being a bigger better version of Lawes, he is very quick for someone of his size and again does a lot of the subtle work that often goes unseen. I can see him and Itoje being England's pairing for the next RWC with Lawes on the bench as he covers both 6 and 5. It is very handy having someone like either of them then has the pace to get out wider than just the initial breakdown area and cause havoc.

I don't like the idea of Joseph on the wing either, I can see how it helps with the pre-worked moves when May lines up in the backs or outside of Joseph, but it means we are missing a cutting edge that someone like big Joe, or Thorley would give us. Both are better wingers than Joseph and as we are not using our backline much anyway, the extra pace and Joe's physicality could be put to use in the kick "race" as Eddie likes to call it.

Lets just hope for better next week or I have a bad feeling that France will pull it off.

The Oracle wrote:Interestingly AWJ was top tackler yesterday with 15. Most turnovers conceded......Maro Itoje!

I agree Maro is awesome though. And is the future. AWJ wouldn’t be in my Lions test side. Still think he’s decent though and perhaps could do a role in the midweek sides.

Personally I'd take him for that role between management and players. Brings an awful lot of experience. Dont think his form is good enough or will be good for playing though.

Rory Best on the last tour was predominantly used as midweek captain, without a realistic shot at a test shirt. There’s no reason why AWJ couldn’t do the same. He could easily be tour captain as well, seeing as Gatland has already proven tour captain won’t necessarily be test captain (less likely). He had a good influence on the likes of Itoje last tour and Gatland is bound to want a strong leadership group.

The trouble with him at the minute is, he’s not being managed well by Pivac. That’s what may cost him. So he probably does look fatigued and he definitely will carry the weight of expectancy on his shoulders, with the way the Welsh team are struggling. I’d agree there are more in form locks at the minute, but Gatland will have less time to look at his squad anyway, so he will probably take three English locks, James Ryan and A N Other. Itoje and Ryan would be the possible test locks already and he will have to get combinations set early to get his scrums and lineouts working straight away.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Interestingly AWJ was top tackler yesterday with 15. Most turnovers conceded......Maro Itoje!

I agree Maro is awesome though. And is the future. AWJ wouldn’t be in my Lions test side. Still think he’s decent though and perhaps could do a role in the midweek sides.

Personally I'd take him for that role between management and players. Brings an awful lot of experience. Dont think his form is good enough or will be good for playing though.

Certainly didn't seem to shirk from his leadership duties and he's a trusted Gatland man who understands his system. I don't think he could be taken as a player/leader if he doesn't genuinely justify being there on ability though. In a team full of raw guys struggling to find an identity as per Wales he's important, but is he going to have natural authority over the top performing senior players in the pack? Could do more harm than good.

As a coach sure, but I think he'd have to retire for that and it would still feel he was along for the ride as a Gatland old boy, unless he'd already retired before the selection is announced.

RiscaGame wrote:Rory Best on the last tour was predominantly used as midweek captain, without a realistic shot at a test shirt. There’s no reason why AWJ couldn’t do the same. He could easily be tour captain as well, seeing as Gatland has already proven tour captain won’t necessarily be test captain (less likely). He had a good influence on the likes of Itoje last tour and Gatland is bound to want a strong leadership group.

The trouble with him at the minute is, he’s not being managed well by Pivac. That’s what may cost him. So he probably does look fatigued and he definitely will carry the weight of expectancy on his shoulders, with the way the Welsh team are struggling. I’d agree there are more in form locks at the minute, but Gatland will have less time to look at his squad anyway, so he will probably take three English locks, James Ryan and A N Other. Itoje and Ryan would be the possible test locks already and he will have to get combinations set early to get his scrums and lineouts working straight away.

I think there is merit to having experienced players such as Best in the squad, even if not pushing the test 23 but importantly he did that in a position that was lacking big competition in 2017. George and Owens were standouts. Ross Ford was still with the Scotland squad, Brown only just overtook him as starter for the 2017 Six Nations. Hartley got a 6 week ban that season for a swinging arm at Sean O'Brien - once again his own worst enemy in a Lions year. Not an abundance of options basically.

Lock has a lot of options though. Itoje and Ryan should definitely tour. Kruis will be eligible despite playing in Japan, Henderson and Lawes will hopefully be fit - all three toured last time. Jonny Gray is a very good player. Launchbury has shown good form for England. Scott Cummings has been quietly impressive for a much improved Scotland side. In Richie Gray you've even got a test capped Lion who will hopefully return to the Scotland set-up in the Six Nations.

It's a very competitive position and a vital one against South Africa given they potentially need to match Etzebeth, de Jager, Snyman and Mostert.

Mr Bounce wrote:I felt AWJ looked tired and as though he had a huge weight on his shoulders. He had the air of a gambler whose luck had run out and every bet he placed at the tables was a losing one. As for the Lions I feel he should tour, but not as a player - more as a consultant to the players. His experience would be invaluable - I just feel that he has been overtaken now in the playing stakes. The Lions is about the very best in the British Isles, and based on current form, he'd be about 7th or 8th.

I thought Poite had an absolute shocker of a game. Wales raised their game as always against England, but it wasn't enough, even against our stuttering back line.

I mentioned this about AWJ looking tired and got a real mouth full,, I truly believe he would be better off taking a coaching roll with Gethin Jenkins.

I would be very surprised if he is in the 6ns next rear.

Regards the Lions tour i do believe he should not go as a player, maybe he could be a kind of consultant, adviser maybe.

Have to say France look to be the side playing the best so far this autumn. They had the edge on a below par England at the start of the the year, no reason it'll be any different if they face each other in the final and England cant string 60 minutes near their best together.

Gooseberry wrote:Have to say France look to be the side playing the best so far this autumn. They had the edge on a below par England at the start of the the year, no reason it'll be any different if they face each other in the final and England cant string 60 minutes near their best together.

They'll be missing half their best players due to the agreement with Top 14 clubs that internationals will only play 3 tests.

Rules out - Dupont, Vakatawa, Ollivon, Fickou, Aldritt, Serin, Thomas

Plus Ntamack isn't going to recover in time. It's going to be a much weaker France side sadly, as I'd much see a rematch of the loss to start the Six Nations.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I felt AWJ looked tired and as though he had a huge weight on his shoulders. He had the air of a gambler whose luck had run out and every bet he placed at the tables was a losing one. As for the Lions I feel he should tour, but not as a player - more as a consultant to the players. His experience would be invaluable - I just feel that he has been overtaken now in the playing stakes. The Lions is about the very best in the British Isles, and based on current form, he'd be about 7th or 8th.

I thought Poite had an absolute shocker of a game. Wales raised their game as always against England, but it wasn't enough, even against our stuttering back line.

I mentioned this about AWJ looking tired  and got a real mouth full,, I truly believe he would be better off taking a coaching roll with Gethin Jenkins.

I would be very surprised if he is in the 6ns next rear.

Regards the Lions tour i do  believe he should not go as a player, maybe he could be a kind of consultant, adviser maybe.

People probably disregard your opinion, because of your poor wum attempts, that you try to do every so often (for some absurd reason). So perhaps when you offer a serious opinion, people won’t take you seriously.

Then you follow it up by saying he won’t be in the Six Nations. Of course he will, if he’s fit. That’s another reason why your opinion may be taken with a pinch of salt.

king_carlos wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Rory Best on the last tour was predominantly used as midweek captain, without a realistic shot at a test shirt. There’s no reason why AWJ couldn’t do the same. He could easily be tour captain as well, seeing as Gatland has already proven tour captain won’t necessarily be test captain (less likely). He had a good influence on the likes of Itoje last tour and Gatland is bound to want a strong leadership group.

The trouble with him at the minute is, he’s not being managed well by Pivac. That’s what may cost him. So he probably does look fatigued and he definitely will carry the weight of expectancy on his shoulders, with the way the Welsh team are struggling. I’d agree there are more in form locks at the minute, but Gatland will have less time to look at his squad anyway, so he will probably take three English locks, James Ryan and A N Other. Itoje and Ryan would be the possible test locks already and he will have to get combinations set early to get his scrums and lineouts working straight away.

I think there is merit to having experienced players such as Best in the squad, even if not pushing the test 23 but importantly he did that in a position that was lacking big competition in 2017. George and Owens were standouts. Ross Ford was still with the Scotland squad, Brown only just overtook him as starter for the 2017 Six Nations. Hartley got a 6 week ban that season for a swinging arm at Sean O'Brien - once again his own worst enemy in a Lions year. Not an abundance of options basically.

Lock has a lot of options though. Itoje and Ryan should definitely tour. Kruis will be eligible despite playing in Japan, Henderson and Lawes will hopefully be fit - all three toured last time. Jonny Gray is a very good player. Launchbury has shown good form for England. Scott Cummings has been quietly impressive for a much improved Scotland side. In Richie Gray you've even got a test capped Lion who will hopefully return to the Scotland set-up in the Six Nations.

It's a very competitive position and a vital one against South Africa given they potentially need to match Etzebeth, de Jager, Snyman and Mostert.

I totally get that, to be honest and know the cupboard is well stocked. I am just kind of anticipating why he may get selected.

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Have to say France look to be the side playing the best so far this autumn. They had the edge on a below par England at the start of the the year, no reason it'll be any different if they face each other in the final and England cant string 60 minutes near their best together.

They'll be missing half their best players due to the agreement with Top 14 clubs that internationals will only play 3 tests.

Rules out - Dupont, Vakatawa, Ollivon, Fickou, Aldritt, Serin, Thomas

Plus Ntamack isn't going to recover in time. It's going to be a much weaker France side sadly, as I'd much see a rematch of the loss to start the Six Nations.

Really? Jesus. This competition is a joke. Not sure how much good its going to do England's ambition to be number one playing such sub par NH teams. Just seems to be a really weak year. Hope the Irish and Welsh get their acts together to lift the 6 nations a bit.

On paper England have had 4 good wins this autumn, but in reality they haven't been their best and the neither has the opposition. One thing all the pundits moaning about the laws or England's tactics ruining the game, but the standard of ball in hand play just hasn't been there across the board. Even Englands kicking was patchy.

Still at least we get a decent match to start the 6 nations and that maybe wont feel quite so tired. The summer tests will be a joke with the Lions missing, Aus and SA pencilled in for next November ... excuses about Lions hangovers. Sigh.

Much better from Wales. I thought the scoreline flattered England in the end but only because they were handed points they didn't look like scoring/deserve/'earn'. Wales were toothless themselves but kept England at bay well enough and might look back on an opportunity missed to nick a win, but frankly they're missing a key ingredient for that: how to score points.

- 1/2P showing once again why he's still one of the first names on the scoresheet for Wales. It's so odd to see him criticised, even by fans from other countries. Absolutely solid and exactly what Wales need to stitch together a team lacking accuracy, stability etc. One errant kick but other than that, excellent. Fielding kicks is meat and drink to him and his turnover stopped just about the only English break that looked like they would score a try. He's on the Lions tour in this form, no doubt. Playing the best rugby of his career.

- The early try seemed to galvanise Wales and if anything it shows how this is a team completely bereft of self belief and confidence. The longer they stayed in the game the better they looked, which is a sign that things are wrong but it's also a sign of where their potential ceiling is and how they're nowhere near maximising their potential, which is impacting the emotions. Having the defence back as an emotional buoy to cling on to has clearly helped as well, although the defence looked ragged outside the first wave of attack. A better attacking team would have punished them.

- England's own ceiling is miles above what they showed. Partly that was due to Wales nullifying them. In fact a lot of it was. But partly it was also a clash of styles. England are used to short, sharp bursts of energy and a clever kicking game while here that was meat and drink to Wales and 1/2P/Biggar. Wales looked poor when Ireland held on to the ball and if England were invested in putting in the very best performance they could, they could have hammered Wales, but they kicked away early in what is clearly a tactic designed to beat the very best: NZ and SA. They have their eyes on the bigger picture and treated this as, effectively, a training run - and it worked, they got the win, albeit unconvincingly. Meanwhile Wales also played in a way that didn't suit England as they couldn't hold on to the ball long enough for them to get their dominant defensive systems going.

- Wales tripped themselves up ball in hand as much or perhaps more often than England stopped them from playing. Samson Lee, AWJ...there were several wayward passes in key attacking positions. It feels like a gameplan still in need of 4-5 more footballers than Wales currently have available to them. Tipuric coming back is key for the tactic to work as SLH and Botham are workmanlike and nothing more in the back row. They worked for this game but in 18 months time Wales need to demand more than just gainline defence from their back rowers. Ideally Wales need a proper, modern 10 - Sheedy shows glimpses but kicked poorly v Georgia. It hasn't quite been a James Hook arrival on the international stage, or even Rhys Priestland. Ioan Lloyd deserves a go in the next 12 months and Costelow shouldn't be too far away in 18 months/2 years, which is good news - at least there are options. Sheedy has that chance in the meantime to nail down the 10 shirt and put Biggar and Patchell down the pecking order. I don't see it yet but certainly won't rule him out. Wales do need a more complete 10, though. Anscombe can't be relied on but he would make this Welsh team a completely different prospect if fit. Wales need a 10 with a full skillset, Biggar can't run. It's nearly the time to use him solely as a ROG option from the bench.

- Elias seems to be getting a lot of stick and it's laughable. The lineout is just as pants with Dee. Neither has Ken Owen's throwing ability (47 out of his first 48 lineouts in pro rugby as a teenager) and even with Ken, Wales' lineout is average to poor. Particularly without Charteris and Shingler. SLH has twice been slow/unathletic to get up at the tail and twice it's gone over the top of him. That's not the hooker's fault. I do 'get' it, it's a case of Dragons fans seeking self esteem through destruction rather than construction, which makes sense given how little they team they support has contributed to the national team over the last 15 years, but Elias showed his ability in the loose with big hits on Itoje and a great counter rip in the maul. Also offers turnover ability at the breakdown, something Wales are desperately in need of. The lineout is poor but putting it in the hands of one man is reactionary bulls1t that is absolutely clueless. Wales need to improve their set piece in general, it's not a personnel issue, not just one man anyway. Ball is poor in the lineout, AWJ is decent but not exceptional, Rowlands doesn't look up to much...they're lacking talented lineout specialists. Shingler would be a very welcome player to have back in for the next 18 months just to tide Wales over but can't see him staying fit long enough, ideally they need lock forwards.

- Poite is Poite. He refs every game like that at scrum time: pick the bigger team and then keep rewarding them. No surprise and almost no complaints, it's basically par for the course. Wales have to be happy with their scrum, it's much better than the last few weeks, Wyn Jones proving his worth once again. Carre is definitely still one for the future, I'd say Rob Evans and Nicky Smith are better choices at this stage. Let him learn his trade still. Don't break him by overplaying him before he's ready. Poite's decision to overrule the TMO is painfully amateur. Clear as day it's a penalty, can't believe you have people on a rugby forum defending an explicit tackle in the air as if Biggar 'landed' on him (the money was just resting in my account...). Clueless, some people need to brush up on the laws. It's a penalty all day long and no try, but what can you do? That's French refereeing.

- Nothing wrong with Daly on Adams as far as I could see. It was chest to chest and he hit the ball which acts like a spring, bouncing back the player depending on who has momentum. It looks worse than it is due to Daly tackling the ball. He may have 'rode up' in the tackle in which case it's a penalty due to minor contact (yellow at worst but it has to have been clear contact to the head) but I didn't see that, as far as I can see it was play on, fair tackle.

- England fans asking them to play 'free flowing rugby' are asking for a return to Lancaster i.e. losing. Australia and NZ play free flowing rugby. They are miles ahead of any NH side. Next in line, France and SA are much better footballing teams/countries than England. England will not win a RWC winning free flowing rugby. They score tries by bullying the opposition and Wales stood up to them - hence England's frustration at their lack of cutting edge and overcelebrations from Genge etc when they would have been aware that 2-3 back to back mistakes and Wales could have nicked a lead in the final quarter. England look potent but not in the way some English fans are wanting: it's like there's a logical fallacy where 'the best team in the world plays running rugby, so if we want to be the best team in the world, we have to do that as well'. England were playing 'wax on, wax off' rugby; preparing for not only winning this tournament, but for bigger things to come. They're going to work on their game after the Lions tour, that much is clear. EJ learned that their drop off in 2018 is in danger of happening again. This game was just repetition and pattern and they came up against an awkward opponent in Wales which resulted in a clash of styles. Some fans are clearly expecting certain players to do and be far more than they actually are - the RWC should have taught you, surely, about what England are. And what they're not. The NZ game showed how good England can be. Ireland in 2019 showed how good England can be. Neither game was about free flowing rugby. SA showed what happens when England start running it from their 22. The kicking tactic is a good one but against a team like Wales, had they kept ball in hand, it might have been over by half time - but then where is the test for certain players? This felt a little bit like England in 2nd gear, barely 3rd. The scoreline flattered England as they produced very little but I also think they won't have minded that. I'd be very happy if I was an English fan, they're playing winning 'English' rugby. We'll see where they are when they come up against a French team with multiple outlets and talents and ways of playing. France are flawed but still much better than Wales and Ireland on their day. England have almost nothing to worry about. The answer doesn't lie in swapping out a Premiership player like Joe Simmonds for Ford or Farrell. England are winning, what more do you want? There's not point changing a winning gameplan that has seen them crowned 6Ns winners. What do you want, to be better at beating Ireland and Wales? Or do you want to be able to beat NZ and SA regularly (and probably Oz soon, too)? Because I think there's too much focus on the former and not enough on the latter - basically, it sounds like Gatlandball criticism, which is ironic but Eddieball is largely similar, based on ruthless defence and opposition mistakes, albeit with much more stop:start rugby to benefit their explosiveness/limit fatigue and the threat of opposition runners.

- Much better for Wales but we also now need another 'much better' as well. They're still not where they were back in February and really they need to be at the very least back to that standard by the Six Nations. A lot of what Pivac says is completley fair, they have the hardest road to climb given the way they're trying to play, it has a long but potentially lucrative pay off if it comes right. It still looks a good 12-18 months away from all clicking - it needs key players in key positions, and question marks remain in most of those, namely 9 and 10. Johnny Williams great, Tompkins looks like Wales' Huw Jones - loose, sometimes dangerous, but flawed. Lloyd Williams was good but needs to stop box kicking off his right foot, it's always terrible. The 9 options look like the old heads, the younger 9s need game time but they don't deserve it. A big conundrum for the whole 'building for the future' mantra as the deserving 3 are Gareth Davies, Rhys Webb, and Lloyd Williams, and they're all late 20s or over 30. LRZ looks potent but we can't just become another 'give it to Shane' team. Injuries to key players makes Wales look worse than they are - Tipuric, JD2, JMac, Sanjay, Ellis Jenkins, Navidi, possibly Shingler at lock/6, Anscombe, North...all of these players will make Wales a better team. There's some insane talent that's not available at the moment. The forward pack is obviously a big issue as clearly Wales lack size and strength. They look unathletic and small compared to most tier 1 teams, even Argentina. But outside that, 13 is a problem that needs fixing as Tompkins is all over the shop defensively and JWilliams is not much of a distributor. Find a class 13 and Wales could become solid as they have the back 3 players, they have the 9s, they look like they have at least a few potentially great 10s, and they have back row players. 13, lock, and reliable front rowers is where Wales need to toughen up. And turnover specialists, but with Navidi, Tipuric, Ellis Jenkins all out of action - and with many more at the regions, let alone in England like Young - that shouldn't be too hard a fix in the future, it should be an easy thing to tack on to an otherwise solid pack.

- The game felt flat without fans. We need fans back asap.

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Have to say France look to be the side playing the best so far this autumn. They had the edge on a below par England at the start of the the year, no reason it'll be any different if they face each other in the final and England cant string 60 minutes near their best together.

They'll be missing half their best players due to the agreement with Top 14 clubs that internationals will only play 3 tests.

Rules out - Dupont, Vakatawa, Ollivon, Fickou, Aldritt, Serin, Thomas

Plus Ntamack isn't going to recover in time. It's going to be a much weaker France side sadly, as I'd much see a rematch of the loss to start the Six Nations.

Didn't know that, thanks for mentioning it.

Was wondering why France were so far outside at 5/1 to win next week - that goes someway to explaining it.

The Oracle wrote:Interestingly AWJ was top tackler yesterday with 15. Most turnovers conceded......Maro Itoje!

AWJ was absolutely outstanding yesterday. Second half in particular.

This is where he is now. Still capable of putting in excellent performances, just not back to back or week in week out.

Top performance from him, though. A true captain's shift. Led by example.

RDW wrote:Any ideas why England's attacking shape features Jamie George often standing on the wing?

I know it's common to have a ball playing forward out wide, but by having a hooker as your last man there's not much chance in finishing off an overlap.

Clearout bulk as ruck support, primarily, so they don't get turned over. However he also has decent pace/hands/feet and can play a bit if they want to attack through him. But primarily he'll be out there to secure possession. That's not odd, though. Hookers and 8s have been out on the wing in phase plays for at least a decade now.

Duty281 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Have to say France look to be the side playing the best so far this autumn. They had the edge on a below par England at the start of the the year, no reason it'll be any different if they face each other in the final and England cant string 60 minutes near their best together.

They'll be missing half their best players due to the agreement with Top 14 clubs that internationals will only play 3 tests.

Rules out - Dupont, Vakatawa, Ollivon, Fickou, Aldritt, Serin, Thomas

Plus Ntamack isn't going to recover in time. It's going to be a much weaker France side sadly, as I'd much see a rematch of the loss to start the Six Nations.

Didn't know that, thanks for mentioning it.

Was wondering why France were so far outside at 5/1 to win next week - that goes someway to explaining it.

That’s poor if France don’t have access. Game will be won by England, but France could have if they had all their players available.

I’ve always thought Poite was poor, his overseeing of Aus vs Wales at the rwc was particularly bad, and the aussie’s still blamed the ref for losing despite getting 14 points from him.

Poite’s decision not to award the penalty for Biggar being tackled in the air turned out to be a poor one. Giving a penalty against Francis for ‘starting it’ when he didn’t was an absolute shocker. I didn’t see a headbutt, it was possibly just the angle and actions of Genge. You’d think Francis would have more to say if it was a headbutt. There would be more complaints here there and everywhere if Wales had done it.

I don’t think England were in danger of losing tbh, they never looked like losing. Their set piece is one of the best if not the best, where as we still have an array of set piece issues. Our defence looked too slow out of the blocks in comparison, plus Curry and Underhill played very well. Johnny Williams, LRZ, SLH and Botham have bright futures. SLH needs to bulk up for international rugby though. Williams and Biggar are too slow at moving the ball, great selections by Pivac. Elias was poor as usual. Under a new regime you feel he would have a played himself out of contention by last week. Dare I say it, Kristian Dacey is looking very good.
There’s a lot to talk about but nothing more to add right now, so congratulations to England on the win.

[quote="lostinwales"]

TightHEAD wrote:It will be a travesty if AWJ goes on the Lions tour. He is cooked and its time to seek out a career in the media.

Maro made him look every year he is. Old and slow. Happens to us all.

That isn't a fair comparison. Itoje is a unique player and would be an automatic pick for the next game vs Mars.[/quote

*Laughs in Afrikaans*

rugby racing and beer wrote:

Elias seems to be getting a lot of stick and it's laughable. The lineout is just as pants with Dee. Neither has Ken Owen's throwing ability (47 out of his first 48 lineouts in pro rugby as a teenager) and even with Ken, Wales' lineout is average to poor. Particularly without Charteris and Shingler. SLH has twice been slow/unathletic to get up at the tail and twice it's gone over the top of him. That's not the hooker's fault. I do 'get' it, it's a case of Dragons fans seeking self esteem through destruction rather than construction, which makes sense given how little they team they support has contributed to the national team over the last 15 years, but Elias showed his ability in the loose with big hits on Itoje and a great counter rip in the maul. Also offers turnover ability at the breakdown, something Wales are desperately in need of. The lineout is poor but putting it in the hands of one man is reactionary bulls1t that is absolutely clueless. Wales need to improve their set piece in general, it's not a personnel issue, not just one man anyway. Ball is poor in the lineout, AWJ is decent but not exceptional, Rowlands doesn't look up to much...they're lacking talented lineout specialists. Shingler would be a very welcome player to have back in for the next 18 months just to tide Wales over but can't see him staying fit long enough, ideally they need lock forwards.

It seems a little strange to pop at Dragons supporters like that, when there have been some on here actually discussing him fairly. Considering you’re the one person who hyped him so much on here, maybe some people expected to be blessed by the second coming and it hasn’t happened yet. Plus international selection is very subjective anyway, especially when you’re an ex club coach. Although that is a point that is frequently brought up by those from down west.

Dee never had an issue with his lineouts until Humphreys came along. Elias has never gone to Ireland and thrown 100% accurate lineouts like Dee and hasn’t proven his worth yet as a starting hooker. At least Dee has some credit in the bank. But then again, Dee isn’t anything more than a squad injury replacement currently anyway, whilst the great Elias was meant to be second choice at worst from the initial selection.

The bluffer also named Elias as the best scrummaging hooker, yet that remains to be seen. For all your positives of him though, maybe he should play flanker instead? Because to be honest, Parry is very good at jackals etc too, yet hasn’t been given much of a shot considering the bluffer wanted to look at him.

BigGee wrote:I was always feel that a confident coach does not go after the ref

Pivac is clearly under pressure and is looking to deflect it elsewhere. That was a poor call by Poite, but hard to say it may have effected the result so early in a game. England were very dominant and should really have won by a lot more.

Everything that is wrong with NH rugby in one comment.

Did England look like scoring tries? Nope. We pretend that holding on to the ball or 'winning the battle up front' is as good as winning the game. This is why the SH is just miles ahead of the North, there's still this latent laziness about what rugby is ALL about. As if NZ don't win games by playing almost entirely on the back foot (something England are looking to replicate by kicking so often).

It's as if 'oh well, you know the scoring part? Well that's just the easy bit, let's pretend they can do that and say they were dominant'. I didn't see a dominant performance from England yesterday and that's why they were celebrating the penalties going their way in the last 10 minutes so vociferously.

'Should have won by a lot more'. Completely ignorant of rugby, almost like you didn't watch the game. Did England have multiple tries rule out? Were they held up repeatedly? Did they have tries chalked off for forward passes? No, they missed a few kicks at goal, just like Wales.

The point about coaches and referees sounds like confirmation bias. Plenty of coaches criticise referees publicly whether win, lose, or draw. Poite was particularly bad yesterday, it's well deserved for Pivac to point that out so you don't get the reactionary guff like 'England dominate Wales' filling up the column inches despite actually grinding out a win... . We all know England CAN play far better than they did...but then, obviously, so can Wales. They were 3 points away from a RWC final 12 months ago.

As I say, I think there's a lack of rugby IQ going on here. That was not dominance yesterday. Everything England did was mostly nullified by Wales and they squeaked over the line in large part due to Wales being so poor in attack - one breakout from LRZ or a few penalties going to other way due to dodgy refereeing and they would have lost the game. I think when you look at the way rugby is played in the NH compared to the SH, how the SH is much more likely to actually just 'play' and allow one team to get on top without trying to spoil or kill or slow down or turn it in to a mudfight, then you know why calling that performance yesterday 'dominant' sounds so silly. NZ were dominant over Argentina yesterday. England were not dominant over Wales. But, then, we had to hear the same for the glorious 4 point Scottish win a few weeks back, didn't we, so...perhaps we all have different understandings of the word and the concept when it comes to rugby.