Wales v England, Parc y Scarlets, 28th November 16:00

First topic message reminder :

England have been pretty comfortable so far clearly led by a set of forwards performing brilliantly. Breakdown, lineout, scrum, everything has been smooth and frankly dominant.

The backs continue to stutter looking for a bit of cohesion, perhaps unsurprisingly to an extent given there have been shuffles to selections. We've perhaps learnt that Furbank isnt good enough for international rugby and that having a winger play on the wing is sometimes a good thing. Obviously this means Jones will ignore that.

One guy completely set in stone is May who moved to joint second highest try scorer for England though. Always lightening but added so much to his game. Hes been relatively quiet this year but excellent yesterday. Quotes from Jones via  the bbc "The great thing is he is 30 and still improving,"
"There is no limit to where he can go. I don't think I have ever seen a player who is more professional in his preparation than Jonny. He is fast and elusive, at one stage it looked like he had spiders all over him."

He was always playing well when he got his england chance but obviously the best players continue to improve. You would normally say first name on the team sheet but theres about 5 of them at the moment.

Jones also said: 'We put ourselves in a good position to maybe go on and dominate. We didn't, but there is a lot more in us, which is pleasing," added Jones, who was named England head coach five years ago on Friday.

"Defence was pretty good but we are disappointed with the try at the end. We'd have liked to have a clean sheet, as they say in football, but we are improving. I particularly liked the ferocity of our ruck defence today."

"Wales is a massive game," added Jones. "If they have one game a year to save their season, it is against England. There is intense rivalry, the Scarlets' ground is an open one, so the elements will affect the game. It will be tough and we will pick our best 23 again."

Seems to me hes also a touch annoyed we didnt add more to the scoreboard and nil Ireland. Great defence clearly in the 2nd half but we struggled for field possession. The last sentence for me could be a bit misleading as it suggests the same team and bench for Wales, cant help but feel there'll be 2 or 3 changes though.


Again from the beeb it looks like Wales have a few injuries and doubts for the game: Tipuric was forced off the field in the second half, while Wales full-back Liam Williams also left the field with 15 stitches in his mouth after a stray boot but should be fit to face England. Wing Johnny McNicholl also departed with a rib cartilage issue.

Bath number eight Taulupe Faletau will be fit after recovering from injury, while Cardiff Blues back-rower Josh Navidi is battling to be in contention after missing the autumn programme so far with his own concussion issues.

Ross Moriarty is sidelined with an ankle problem.

Dragons back-rower Aaron Wainwright was handed the man-of-the-match accolade against Georgia after an impressive performance at number eight with Pivac believing this should be his long-term position.

"I personally like him at eight," added Pivac.

"I prefer him at eight to six. He gets his hands on the ball, he has very good acceleration out of the boot.

"You saw some of those skills tonight and I like him in that position."

Wales have an outside centre void to fill missing against England with Jonathan Davies set to miss the game with a knee problem. Johnny Williams impressed at inside centre on his debut.'

All set for a comfortable Wales win then.


Teams

Wales

TBC


England

Daly; Joseph, Slade, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Willis, Robson, Watson

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:So, this is apparently (with 807) the most capped starting XV England have ever fielded. At an average age of just under 28 not an old team either.

Could conceivably be the bulk of the squad we take to the next world cup as well. We saw the benefit of experience back in 2003.

I'm hoping we come at Wales with some ambition and take them to task. Not for this game but because traveling to Wales has been tough for England. The Welsh on home soil have a bit of an aura about themselves, away from home you fancy your chances quite a bit more. A really good result here might help strip back some of fortress mentality of going to Wales. Increase the likelihood of a win there again in the 6N early next year.

Since the shellacking in 2013 matched between England and Wales, no matter the location, have ended up pretty close on the scoreboard. I feel this may follow the same pattern, but do hope for a strong performance from England and see if Wales can match it. The lack of a crowd affects all the players, but so often in teh MS they act as a 16th man for Wales so a huge advantage to us that this is in an almost empty stadium.

Having the fixture 3 times in under 12 months is going to get a bit tiresome, roll on AI's 2021 and some fresh opponents (summer tours will be a joke). The last one was a real humdinger mind and its better than nothing.

LondonTiger wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:So, this is apparently (with 807) the most capped starting XV England have ever fielded. At an average age of just under 28 not an old team either.

Could conceivably be the bulk of the squad we take to the next world cup as well. We saw the benefit of experience back in 2003.

I'm hoping we come at Wales with some ambition and take them to task. Not for this game but because traveling to Wales has been tough for England. The Welsh on home soil have a bit of an aura about themselves, away from home you fancy your chances quite a bit more. A really good result here might help strip back some of fortress mentality of going to Wales. Increase the likelihood of a win there again in the 6N early next year.

Since the shellacking in 2013 matched between England and Wales, no matter the location, have ended up pretty close on the scoreboard. I feel this may follow the same pattern, but do hope for a strong performance from England and see if Wales can match it. The lack of a crowd affects all the players, but so often in teh MS they act as a 16th man for Wales so a huge advantage to us that this is in an almost empty stadium.

Often they have looked closer on the scoreboard than on the pitch though.

England by 20+ points. Ford at 10 means Jones wants his side to re-ignite their attacking ambitions and score more tries - Wales' issues with form and fitness mean the game won't be as close on the scoreboard as recent years.

I'm expecting England to dominate every facet of the encounter, but especially the breakdown with Curry and Underhill in strong form.

Duty281 wrote:England by 20+ points. Ford at 10 means Jones wants his side to re-ignite their attacking ambitions and score more tries - Wales' issues with form and fitness mean the game won't be as close on the scoreboard as recent years.

I'm expecting England to dominate every facet of the encounter, but especially the breakdown with Curry and Underhill in strong form.

I too expect a dominant England performance but won't be at all surprised if the scores are close at the end of the game. I do think Wales will miss Liam Williams as he always looks dangerous and 1/2p is nothing like the same kind of threat, but they have a proven poacher on one wing and a speedster on the other.

Duty281 wrote:England by 20+ points. Ford at 10 means Jones wants his side to re-ignite their attacking ambitions and score more tries - Wales' issues with form and fitness mean the game won't be as close on the scoreboard as recent years.

I'm expecting England to dominate every facet of the encounter, but especially the breakdown with Curry and Underhill in strong form.

I wish that bit were true, but I strongly suspect we will see the same gameplan used in the 3 matches so far.

Now Jones is really trolling the welsh fans

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55087701

LondonTiger wrote:

Duty281 wrote:England by 20+ points. Ford at 10 means Jones wants his side to re-ignite their attacking ambitions and score more tries - Wales' issues with form and fitness mean the game won't be as close on the scoreboard as recent years.

I'm expecting England to dominate every facet of the encounter, but especially the breakdown with Curry and Underhill in strong form.

I wish that bit were true, but I strongly suspect we will see the same gameplan used in the 3 matches so far.

Not sure Ford added that much in attack when he came on against Ireland.

Theres no way the fundamental approach is going to change during this tournament, and the talk form the England camp has been about the expectation of a scrappy forward dominated game. I do think though, and his post match comments back this up, that Jones was pretty concerned about England being on the defensive and having so little ball for the second half against Ireland. Happy with the quality of the defence but absolutely wants to make sure they play more and don't spend an entire half on the backfoot.

So maybe a bit more focus on keeping the ball later in the gam, and not stopping playing when they are ahead.

Also Ford would always have been the first choice at 10, and Jones has always wanted backs to be able to turn it on and play the game as they see it when its open. So yeah it might enable more of that if they can secure the right opportunities, don't see it so much of a change of plan as getting to execute the attacking plan more often and more effectively.

I'm a bit worried about Wales targeting Daly and how Joseph holds up against Rees-Zammit. The pack should provide a good base for england though and as others have said the return of the ford farrell partnership brings back one of the strengths if our attacking game in recent seasons.

Gooseberry wrote:Now Jones is really trolling the welsh fans

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55087701

TightHEAD wrote:This will be like a training ground game. Good job the surroundings match the occasion!

Pretty classless to highlight the surroundings, given the reasons why they’re playing there. I know you like to try and be funny, but you’re not. The training ground game just comes across as unsporting at best or arrogant at worst. I know which one I’ll lean towards.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm a bit worried about Wales targeting Daly and how Joseph holds up against Rees-Zammit. The pack should provide a good base for england though and as others have said the return of the ford farrell partnership brings back one of the strengths if our attacking game in recent seasons.

Goes both ways. Daly can be a very dangerous runner in his own right, and I believe May and RZ will be facing off.

I did actually think LRZ had been named at 11, but he hasn’t. I still think Adams may go against May, but then again he has predominantly been our left winger, so maybe not.

Not really sure Englands wide players are an issue defensively. The only time theyve been undone was the Stockdale try, and that was with Mallins on. Not sure who the defender was who misjudged the kick though, was that May?

In general the talk has been that they were very good and that its an area they've specifically worked on. Jospeh isnt the sort of tanker whos going to get caught out on the turn too easily and can handle himself physically. They all have the pace to cope with the likes of Zammit, and its not like Halfpenny offers much threat these days...3 in nearly 8 years!

When it comes to it if Wales are getting the opportunities out wide then England have failed in the forwards battle to allow that.

Gooseberry wrote:Not really sure Englands wide players are an issue defensively. The only time theyve been undone was the Stockdale try, and that was with Mallins on. Not sure who the defender was who misjudged the kick though, was that May?

Robson was the one caught out of place from that kick. Malins and Robson were set back with May and Daly up in the line. Robson was sat very deep though. He either needed to commit to challenging for the ball (which he did) and actually disrupt Stockdale gathering it (which he didn't), or he needed to hang off slightly and make the tackle.

It was a good kick from Burns and finish by Stockdale though to be fair.

RiscaGame wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:This will be like a training ground game. Good job the surroundings match the occasion!

Pretty classless to highlight the surroundings, given the reasons why they’re playing there. I know you like to try and be funny, but you’re not. The training ground game just comes across as unsporting at best or arrogant at worst. I know which one I’ll lean towards.

Two good ways of reacting to an attempted wind up. Ignore it or as you have done give it a level of respect it does not deserve and post a balanced well thought out response that completely shoots it down.

So far, in attack, May has been operating as an opening winger rather than a left wing. Means he has to cover a lot of ground, but potentially complicates matters for the Welsh wingers.

Will always be flying with British Airways after today

Is it a Ground or a Park?

Haven't watched the Rabo in years?

RiscaGame wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:This will be like a training ground game. Good job the surroundings match the occasion!

Pretty classless to highlight the surroundings, given the reasons why they’re playing there. I know you like to try and be funny, but you’re not. The training ground game just comes across as unsporting at best or arrogant at worst. I know which one I’ll lean towards.

Oh lighten up sweetheart. Don't take life too seriously in these dark days.

LondonTiger wrote:So far, in attack, May has been operating as an opening winger rather than a left wing. Means he has to cover a lot of ground, but potentially complicates matters for the Welsh wingers.

Getting both wingers on the openside for set-piece plays has been a feature for England since Daly moved to fullback. Crash ball through Manu, crash ball from a forward then quickly move the ball from Ford, to Farrell, to Daly, with both wingers running lines off Daly in the wide channels.

With Joseph on one wing they do seem to be having May running outside of JJ a lot of the time as you say.

This year (i.e. 6 Nations and Autumn Nations Cup thus far) I've noticed Youngs/Farrell (or Ford when he's been fit) setting back for kicks in defence more often as well. One of the half backs and the fullback sitting deeper with the wingers up in the defensive line. A slight change of tactics from Mitchell perhaps? The sort of thing it takes a lot of analysis to confirm though to be fair, I accept that it might just be something I've noticed more with JJ or Daly on one wing for most games in 2020.

Zoom calls are depressing enough but watching other peoples zoom calls is horrendous. Bring back the BBC and Inverdale likening random things to Wilkinson.

After a lot of time now, I still can't see George Ford as England's preferred 10.  He is good, perhaps very good, behind a strong forward pack which drives off the opposing defense.  But when presented with a stout defense, the most extreme example are the Boks (as in RWC 2019), he adds nothing.  Now, granted, Farrell is neither the best attacking 10 and certainly not 12, but at least we can see the value he adds, when not losing his temper.  I would think this is now the time to look at alternatives, and let's see what happens.  There have got to be some young, more rounded 10s in the Premiership which cold develop nicely.  Perhaps joe Simmonds at Exe, Smith at Quins (who just bitchslapped my Saints), even James Grayson at saints (though he is probably a notch below the others).  There must be others I didn't mention. What do you think?

doctor_grey wrote:After a lot of time now, I still can't see George Ford as England's preferred 10.  He is good, perhaps very good, behind a strong forward pack which drives off the opposing defense.  But when presented with a stout defense, the most extreme example are the Boks (as in RWC 2019), he adds nothing.  Now, granted, Farrell is neither the best attacking 10 and certainly not 12, but at least we can see the value he adds, when not losing his temper.  I would think this is now the time to look at alternatives, and let's see what happens.  There have got to be some young, more rounded 10s in the Premiership which cold develop nicely.  Perhaps joe Simmonds at Exe, Smith at Quins (who just bitchslapped my Saints), even James Grayson at saints (though he is probably a notch below the others).  There must be others I didn't mention.  What do you think?

Umaga is another

doctor_grey wrote:After a lot of time now, I still can't see George Ford as England's preferred 10.  He is good, perhaps very good, behind a strong forward pack which drives off the opposing defense.  But when presented with a stout defense, the most extreme example are the Boks (as in RWC 2019), he adds nothing.  Now, granted, Farrell is neither the best attacking 10 and certainly not 12, but at least we can see the value he adds, when not losing his temper.  I would think this is now the time to look at alternatives, and let's see what happens.  There have got to be some young, more rounded 10s in the Premiership which cold develop nicely.  Perhaps joe Simmonds at Exe, Smith at Quins (who just bitchslapped my Saints), even James Grayson at saints (though he is probably a notch below the others).  There must be others I didn't mention.  

He rrally is Englands first choice.

But this is the first year where theres two or three young fly halves genuinely banging on the door without Cipriani's baggage. Umaga and Simmonds where in the wider squad, and Umaga singlrd out by Jones with praise for his raw talent.

They would've got a chance over the summer, but the fact they werent tried from the bench even when Ford was injured should tell you that Jones doesnt have any concerns about him. Hes certainly not going to start experimenting through this autumn now theyve had the easy games out the way, and the same will probably apply to the 6 nations unless Ford has a real meltdown in form.

All kicking and set peices so far. May reasses my views on the is rugby rubbish thread

Loose one from Farrell for a change

To be fair, Lee did exactly the same as Sinckler on the other side.

Well that is what happens when you keep kicking and kicking!

What the actual...

Haha! Charge down!!!

Flats says charge down too. I’ll go with that!

That's one of the worst tries you can concede. Awful kick from Slade. Wales barely touched the ball so far.

Hard lines MacNeice. I’m sure you’ll have your moment.

7-0 Wales

maybe England will stop kicking everything now!

Oh dear lord....

The Oracle wrote:Flats says charge down too. I’ll go with that!

Biggar didn’t play for the ball until after it had contacted him.

How slow was Slade though....it was ponderous at best.

RiscaGame wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Flats says charge down too. I’ll go with that!

Biggar didn’t play for the ball until after it had contacted him.

Good try England, they look much better when they move the ball

Nice try. Should be a yellow for Wales probably.

Dominant try but theres something edgy about all Englands play

Slade...best centre in the world...

Superb team try. Good refereeing from Poite to let the game continue.

Maybe a bit lucky there though, Poite giving England a hand there

BigGee wrote:Good try England, they look much better when they move the ball

They do but so much of the time there is so little space.

BigGee wrote:Good try England, they look much better when they move the ball

Definite tackle in the air though.

Without a big carrier in the backs they need to move the ball more for sure.

Poite just hates scrums doesnt he

Poite is all over the place.

king_carlos wrote:

BigGee wrote:Good try England, they look much better when they move the ball

Definite tackle in the air though.

Without a big carrier in the backs they need to move the ball more for sure.

Surprised MacNeice backed down actually.