England - Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

He's playing great 7.5...his alround game is good and so aggressive.

But he has big competition...Slightholme is a talent, Hassle Collins, Cockasaniga back playing, Loader, etc etc

England are in a good place for talented young wings...

Its great that we have so many but a headache to pick who gets the shot. There are now 3 right wingers id like to see this summer in Sleightholme, Loader and Radwan. And just not enough time to see them all. And thats before I consider that Thorley has returned!

If we are looking for that big physical winger I'd prefer Hassell-Collins getting a shot over Cokanasiga at present. He just looks the better player at the minute.

Big Joe is an absolute weapon no doubt but since returning from the RWC with that injury he just hasn't been at his best sadly. He's still only 23-years old so plenty of time on his side.

From the RWC squad all of our hard carriers in the backs in Manu, Nowell and Cokanasiga have been unavailable recently. It's shown to be honest with how reliant the tactics were on Manu's running so looking at other carriers such as Hassell-Collins would be shrewd.

Sticking with tactics that relied on players now unavailable was especially frustrating given that our backline play early in Jones tenure with a Ford-Farrell-Joseph midfield frequently didn't have any crash ball carriers but worked great at times. They did often have Te'o on the bench in case guile wasn't working though to be fair.

Radwan looks the pick for me. I just think it's rare to see a young winger with that sort of pace but no obvious holes to their game. Even Watson (revolving door in the tackle) and May (headless chicken moments) had weaknesses early on that they've improved out of sight. Wingers usually have defensive deficiencies when they arrive into senior rugby as attacks below that level just wont be as efficient at regularly getting the ball wide and challenging wingers as much. Radwan seems to have such a good all round game though which really impresses me.

I sometimes think we over analyse players based on physical size, etc. For wings, think of Shane Williams, not a big bloke but absolutely knew how to get over the line. That's a wing's job. Wasn't an ironclad defender but far more than held his own, as we know.

doctor_grey wrote:I sometimes think we over analyse players based on physical size, etc.  For wings, think of Shane Williams, not a big bloke but absolutely knew how to get over the line.  That's a wing's job.  Wasn't an ironclad defender but far more than held his own, as we know.

We don't have to think about Williams because we had Jason Robinson.

Size isn't everything and I think there is a shift towards more mobile players in the pack, although props seem to be both getting bigger and more mobile. But you need a USP and for a long time power seems to have been the most straightforward to develop.

It’s funny but for some reason I never thought of Jason Robinson as small, just shorter, if that makes sense.

Another clamour for Simmomds as he breaks the try scoring record for the prem. I'm quite pleased he was picked by Gatland though as I'm still see Dombrandt as the more promising player for England. Of we do move a more offloading and running style he'll be amazing.

doctor_grey wrote:It’s funny but for some reason I never thought of Jason Robinson as small, just shorter, if that makes sense.  

Wiki has him down at 1.73m (5'8'') and 81kg (12 st 11)

Same source has Shane Williams as 1.7m (5'7'') and 80 kg (12 st 8).

Both tiny.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another clamour for Simmomds as he breaks the try scoring record for the prem. I'm quite pleased he was picked by Gatland though as I'm still see Dombrandt as the more promising player for England. Of we do move a more offloading and running style he'll be amazing.

I wouldn't say clamour was the correct word - it suggests that those who think Simmonds is a good player are confused. That seems to be a particularly churlish view on the day that the current European player of the year smashed the Premiership try scoring record with more opportunities to come to add to it. Along with the fact he has been picked for the Lions ahead of Billy and Dombrandt, would be fairly indisputable evidence for most people that he can play rugby. However, along with Eddie it seems that whatever he does will not be enough for some.

nlpnlp wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another clamour for Simmomds as he breaks the try scoring record for the prem. I'm quite pleased he was picked by Gatland though as I'm still see Dombrandt as the more promising player for England. Of we do move a more offloading and running style he'll be amazing.

I wouldn't say clamour was the correct word - it suggests that those who think Simmonds is a good player are confused.   That seems to be a particularly churlish view on the day that the current European player of the year smashed the Premiership try scoring record with more opportunities to come to add to it.  Along with the fact he has been picked for the Lions ahead of Billy and Dombrandt, would be fairly indisputable evidence for most people that he can play rugby.  However, along with Eddie it seems that whatever he does will not be enough for some.

He has been tried at International level (7 caps - which is more than most get under Jones) and was found wanting against the more physical sides. Picking him would require changing the way we play or somehow building a pack around him........

People read what the want to sometimes don't they. Who says Simmonds can't play rugby? The stats for top scorers does show that a fair few times the forward at the back of the maul does bag a lot though. Simmonds, Waldrom and Back all up there.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another clamour for Simmomds as he breaks the try scoring record for the prem. I'm quite pleased he was picked by Gatland though as I'm still see Dombrandt as the more promising player for England. Of we do move a more offloading and running style he'll be amazing.

I wouldn't say clamour was the correct word - it suggests that those who think Simmonds is a good player are confused.   That seems to be a particularly churlish view on the day that the current European player of the year smashed the Premiership try scoring record with more opportunities to come to add to it.  Along with the fact he has been picked for the Lions ahead of Billy and Dombrandt, would be fairly indisputable evidence for most people that he can play rugby.  However, along with Eddie it seems that whatever he does will not be enough for some.

He has been tried at International level (7 caps - which is more than most get under Jones) and was found wanting against the more physical sides. Picking him would require changing the way we play or somehow building a pack around him........

I think the truth lies in creating the pack around him. We have a template that relies upon our no.8 being a big lump who can make yards with defenders hanging off them then offload for some glory hunter to score the tries and that isn't Simmonds.

With each game Sam plays Eddie Jones looks more and more stupid for not selecting Simmonds to have been part of the 6 nations squad.

TightHEAD wrote:With each game Sam plays Eddie Jones looks more and more stupid for not selecting Simmonds to have been part of the 6 nations squad.

I don't know - his stock has probably risen for not being involved

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/16/opportunities-beckon-as-eddie-jones-ponders-options-for-summer-tests

Few additional names that I don't think most of us have thrown in yet, though I think geordie may have mentioned Naulago; hardly jumps out as an obvious candidate to me given the other wingers.

Ewan Ashman, Nick David, Yeandle (perhaps the candidate as there aren't too many young hookers but seems a waste), Fin Smith, Ben Stevenson and Northmore I haven't heard mentioned from us.

Kitsons picks from the article:

England XV (possible) Malins (Bristol); Nowell (Exeter), Slade (Exeter), Tuilagi (Sale), Naulago (Bristol); Smith (Harlequins), Robson (Wasps); Obano (Bath), Barbeary (Wasps), Sinckler (Harlequins), Ribbans (Northampton), Ewels (Bath), Underhill (Bath, capt), Earl (Bristol), Dombrandt (Harlequins).

England A (possible; nb. omits potential candidates from clubs currently in Premiership top four): De Glanville (Bath); Sleightholme (Northampton), Odogwu (Wasps), Lawrence (Worcester), Cokanasiga (Bath); Umaga (Wasps), Mitchell (Northampton); Genge (Leicester), McGuigan (Newcastle), Stuart (Bath), Kpoku (Saracens), Martin (Leicester), T Hill (Worcester, capt), Ludlam (Northampton), Chick (Newcastle).


I'd be mightily annoyed at that XV against USA or Canada tbh. Given Jones is coaching the A side this time around as well I'm expecting a bit more cohesion between the 2 even given the prem final.

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/may/16/opportunities-beckon-as-eddie-jones-ponders-options-for-summer-tests

Few additional names that I don't think most of us have thrown in yet, though I think geordie may have mentioned Naulago; hardly jumps out as an obvious candidate to me given the other wingers.

Ewan Ashman, Nick David, Yeandle (perhaps the candidate as there aren't too many young hookers but seems a waste), Fin Smith, Ben Stevenson and Northmore I haven't heard mentioned from us.

Kitsons picks from the article:

England XV (possible) Malins (Bristol); Nowell (Exeter), Slade (Exeter), Tuilagi (Sale), Naulago (Bristol); Smith (Harlequins), Robson (Wasps); Obano (Bath), Barbeary (Wasps), Sinckler (Harlequins), Ribbans (Northampton), Ewels (Bath), Underhill (Bath, capt), Earl (Bristol), Dombrandt (Harlequins).

England A (possible; nb. omits potential candidates from clubs currently in Premiership top four): De Glanville (Bath); Sleightholme (Northampton), Odogwu (Wasps), Lawrence (Worcester), Cokanasiga (Bath); Umaga (Wasps), Mitchell (Northampton); Genge (Leicester), McGuigan (Newcastle), Stuart (Bath), Kpoku (Saracens), Martin (Leicester), T Hill (Worcester, capt), Ludlam (Northampton), Chick (Newcastle).


I'd be mightily annoyed at that XV against USA or Canada tbh. Given Jones is coaching the A side this time around as well I'm expecting a bit more cohesion between the 2 even given the prem final.

Agreed - I don't get what we would find out from playing Genge, Stuart and Lawrence in an A test at all - although the remainder makes some sense

Be fun seeing the reaction on here if the likes of Reffell or Ashman were selected.

Its the wingers which catch my eye. I would see absolutely no point in seeing Nowell (especially as he's injured again) and why even consider Naulago. Decent player but given his age and the youngsters pulling up trees just seems bizarre. Who no one who is in both teams is a head scratcher. Why if you're picking Hill as captain not then give him 3 games, no pressure mate you're getting minutes kind of thing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:People read what the want to sometimes don't they. Who says Simmonds can't play rugby? The stats for top scorers does show that a fair few times the forward at the back of the maul does bag a lot though. Simmonds, Waldrom and Back all up there.

George McGuigan is usually the man at the back of the mauls for us...and gets a boat load of tries...

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:It’s funny but for some reason I never thought of Jason Robinson as small, just shorter, if that makes sense.  

Wiki has him down at 1.73m (5'8'') and 81kg (12 st 11)

Same source has Shane Williams as 1.7m (5'7'') and 80 kg (12 st 8).

Both tiny.

Robinson must have been bigger than that, I met him once around 2010 and i'm 5'8" and around 13st, he was bigger than I was.

4. Kpoku (Saracens)
5. Martin (Leicester),
6. T Hill (Worcester, capt),
7.Ludlam (Northampton),
8. Chick (Newcastle).

Wow no lack of aggression and power there mind!

Chick has really come on since beefing up. He's still a bit raw, but is in the mix.

Other Falcons options being talked about are a bit far-fetched for me. Stevenson and Radwan need looking at but Davison (really?) and Robinson/McGuigan are approaching 30, is there any point?

I'm really looking forward to these games. Could be a look into the immediate future in terms of the backline. Praying that its not stodge. The lack of those coaches bothers me a little, its not worked including this 6ns when Jones has taken too much on himself.

Tonights Leicester game has also reminded me of Lozowski. Hes looked quite good for England in the past. Trying to remember the reason he dropped out of squads and I can't.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Chick has really come on since beefing up. He's still a bit raw, but is in the mix.

Other Falcons options being talked about are a bit far-fetched for me. Stevenson and Radwan need looking at but Davison (really?) and Robinson/McGuigan are approaching 30, is there any point?

i agree Sgt.

Davison shouldnt even be linked with England. Robinson is a good player but there are young locks who could be superb at international level coming through.

Stevensons best position will be 13...and he needs to move there sooner rather than later...he'll be a good prem player. Radwan looks the business though...id pick him...and Hassle Collins on the other wing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tonights Leicester game has also reminded me of Lozowski.  Hes looked quite good for England in the past. Trying to remember the reason he dropped out of squads and I can't.

Lozowski was one of the players not yet seen for England again after the underwhelming Japan performance in the 2018 AIs. Care, Mercer and Hill also featured without a chance since. Hepburn and Wigglesworth were dumped after the final AI against Australia a week later.

I actually thought Lozowski was underwhelming for England but excellent for Sarries. For Sarries he almost looked like a quicker Slade when playing 13.

Ah Japan. The game where in the first half Nigel Owens forgot he wasn't reffing a testimonial before the second half where laws were applied and we won reasonably comfortably?

I think the problem Lozowski will find is he's a other playmaking midfielder. Yes he's got some pace but Captain Undroppable is in the team and there's still Slade as another option. Lozowski is unfortunately for him ready to fill a hole that isn't there. I am think he'll look good in that Sarries midfield alongside either Tompkins or Morris.

I know he was probably only an outside bet for an "A" place but Theo Brophy Clews has been forced to retire. A shame as he was a half-decent 12 and a good player. I remember seeing him during the U20s when England won.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57206299

Mr Bounce wrote:I know he was probably only an outside bet for an "A" place but Theo Brophy Clews has been forced to retire. A shame as he was a half-decent 12 and a good player. I remember seeing him during the U20s when England won.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57206299

He looked a big talent at the U20 level. That combination of being more physically developed than a lot of U20 fly-halves and having more time on the ball made him standout. Such a shame for him to retire so early. Sadly, given the growing research around concussions, CTE and early onset dementia we will likely see a lot more players retire early due to this.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think the problem Lozowski will find is he's a other playmaking midfielder. Yes he's got some pace but Captain Undroppable is in the team and there's still Slade as another option. Lozowski is unfortunately for him ready to fill a hole that isn't there. I am think he'll look good in that Sarries midfield alongside either Tompkins or Morris.

In fairness to captain undroppable he is a much better player than Lozowski or Slade!

Dom Morris looks a quality centre whenever I've seen him play. How Tompkins, Lozowski, Morris, Taylor and Daly in the midfield will work I don't know.

I like the look of Dom Morris as well. I was quietly hoping Tigers might have acquired him as part of the Sarries relegation mess but sadly didn't come to pass. Sarries like their rotation so I'm sure all those players will continue to get a go. Daly might go out to the wing and I think Tompkins only has one year left at Sarries so will probably head back to Wales after that.

Captain Undroppable is very good in certain areas and not so much in others. I'd argue that we could potentially build a more balanced midfield with Lozowski as the midfield playmaker than we can with Farrell in there.

I was always impressed by Lozowski, had a real turn of pace that gave his carrying game an edge that similar playmakers just didn't have. One of those that just didn't get much of a shot under Eddie that I would have liked to see more of

Has Lozowski played much at 10, he seemed to me in all the little bits I have seen of him to have all the required attributes. He is certainly fast enough to make the back rows hanging around a little longer, solid enough to be good defensively, I thought he was a pretty good distributor, know nothing about his kicking from hand, but he has played a fair bit at 15, so it cannot be that bad.

He's been covering there think he's still mainly a midfielder but Healey called it right (in part) that the guys who cover multiple positions pretty well are gold dust to a team/squad perhaps in detriment to their own development. There are a few around now where they constantly seem to be moved and this never quite force their way in. Healey incidentally said his best position was wing.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Has Lozowski played much at 10, he seemed to me in all the little bits I have seen of him to have all the required attributes. He is certainly fast enough to make the back rows hanging around a little longer, solid enough to be good defensively, I thought he was a pretty good distributor, know nothing about his kicking from hand, but he has played a fair bit at 15, so it cannot be that bad.

He's a 10 by trade that has eventually settled in the centres due to his versatility. He's actually very good defensively.....I'd always quite fancied him at Falcons to play Flyhalf, somewhere he could nail the position and progress.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Has Lozowski played much at 10, he seemed to me in all the little bits I have seen of him to have all the required attributes. He is certainly fast enough to make the back rows hanging around a little longer, solid enough to be good defensively, I thought he was a pretty good distributor, know nothing about his kicking from hand, but he has played a fair bit at 15, so it cannot be that bad.

He's a 10 by trade that has eventually settled in the centres due to his versatility. He's actually very good defensively.....I'd always quite fancied him at Falcons to play Flyhalf, somewhere he could nail the position and progress.  

Whilst id never considered it...i would have been happy with that move!

Don't think his decision making at 10 is that good, looks better further out. Certainly not an international fly half.

Like these couple of quotes on Loader from RugbyXV:

“I’m by no means the finished article, I know that. There’s a lot to work on. In the past year or two I’ve worked hard on my defence. As a wing, attacking comes naturally. You know, running fast and running round people is what I do but the positioning side, taking the high ball; it can all be improved. If you can become a player who can rule the air, it can be a game changer. Winning the ball back is such an asset to have.”

“When you’re involved with England at age-grade level, it feels like everything revolves around England but once that team disbands, it’s over. That week in the senior set-up was a brilliant experience but after that you go back to your club and you don’t hear anything, which is tough.”

Clearly knows where he has to improve, hopefully he can do that ASAP. Some players never get to grips with where their weaknesses are or lose some of their plus points trying to rectify it. The second quote hammers home the difficulty for English qualified players. There's that much competition that its going to be impossible for coaches to keep that regular contact unless you're in the squads. I guess another reason Jones was keen to bring back the A team.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't think his decision making at 10 is that good, looks better further out. Certainly not an international fly half.

Still an upgrade for us
Although Connon has finally shown some ability in the last few games.

Rumour has it...

Ewan Ashman has turned down an invite from England to tour with them, this summer, to commit to Scotland

Bevan Rodd has turned down an invitation from Scotland

Ashman has not really been on my radar but think it's really positive that Jones has seen the potential to cap these guys who are dual qualified. The obvious reason for the A team and seemingly he plans to use it well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Rumour has it...

Ewan Ashman has turned down an invite from England to tour with them, this summer, to commit to Scotland

Bevan Rodd has turned down an invitation from Scotland

I think this is fact GF actually. Makes a change us keeping hold of our age grade rather than losing them to one of those pesky neighbors.

So we can expect Rodd to be one of the LH's for the Summer squad...

Genge, Obano, Rodd?

Manu on the bench tomorrow post his long time out with a snapped achilles and hope the poor guy stays fit. IF he does remain fit will Eddie want to give him some game time in the summer or prefer to let him to condition etc? If he is fit and ok then I say crack on. Obviously he could get a Lions call up if he plays well.

That's an interesting question. It's hard for athletes to rehab towards a goal of return to play (any sport) then have a game or two then a few months off. It's better to return to play and find a way to keep playing. One way or an other.

doctor_grey wrote:That's an interesting question.  It's hard for athletes to rehab towards a goal of return to play (any sport) then have a game or two then a few months off.  It's better to return to play and find a way to keep playing.  One way or an other.  

That sounds sensible - thanks for the medical opinion. Just a big question of trying to stay injury free for him. Probably just too big for his own good? Makes him a beast, but also very vulnerable.

Aren’t the Tuilagi family just massive naturally? Has Manu built himself beyond his frame (like eg Henson) or is he just prone to injuries, unfortunately?

Other big guys like Billy V and Faletau have been unlucky with arm injuries which is obviously a differ matter but maybe more with how they carry into contact?

Cyril wrote:Aren’t the Tuilagi family just massive naturally? Has Manu built himself beyond his frame (like eg Henson) or is he just prone to injuries, unfortunately?

Manu is the runt of the Tigers litter, yes they are all massive. I think it's just tough for explosive players of that size you are asking the loaded muscles to take a lot of strain and in rugby not in natural ways. I'd hope the sports science folk are finding new ways to strengthen against this though.

Henry Slade has given an interview to the Telegraph stating he won’t be getting a COVID vaccine

Probably the highest profile sportsperson I’ve seen openly come out against it. Will be interesting to see what implications this has for playing abroad certainly, and even playing full stop

Henry Thacker as returns to the bench tonight so he may be in the running for a place this summer.

Ha. Just read up on the Slade interview. What a thick bit of mince he is.