England Summer Tour - Part 2

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa 42 - England 39

16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action


Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

England

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)

Inside backs
Danny Cipriani (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks) * Piers Francis
Dan Robson (Wasps) *
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Spencer (Saracens) *
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) Jason Woodward
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Ben Earl (Saracens) *
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)  
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Brad Shields (Hurricanes/ Wasps) *
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Jack Willis (Wasps) * Nathan Hughes
Mark Wilson (Newcastle)

Front row
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)





South Africa

Forwards (24):
Nizaam Carr (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Bismarck du Plessis (hooker, Montpellier, France, 79, 55 - 11t)
Dan du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 3, 0)
Jean-Luc du Preez (loose forward, Cell C Sharks, 10, 10 - 2t)
Pieter-Steph du Toit (lock, DHL Stormers, 32, 20 - 4t)
Thomas du Toit (prop, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Jason Jenkins (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Steven Kitshoff (prop, DHL Stormers, 23, 5 - 1t)
Siya Kolisi (loose forward, DHL Stormers, 28, 20 - 4t)
Wilco Louw (prop, DHL Stormers, 5, 0)
Frans Malherbe (prop, DHL Stormers, 17, 0)
Bongi Mbonambi (hooker, DHL Stormers, 14, 5 - 1t)
Oupa Mohojé (loose forward, Toyota Cheetahs 18, 0)
Franco Mostert (lock, Emirates Lions, 18, 5 - 1t)
Tendai Mtawarira (prop, Cell C Sharks, 98, 10 - 2t)
Ox Nche (prop, Toyota Cheetahs, uncapped)
Sikhumbuzo Notshe (loose forward, DHL Stormers, uncapped)
Trevor Nyakane (prop, Vodacom Bulls, 37, 5 - 1t)
Marvin Orie (lock, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
Chiliboy Ralepelle (hooker, Cell C Sharks 23, 5 - 1t)
Kwagga Smith (loose forward, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
RG Snyman (lock, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Akker van der Merwe (hooker, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Duane Vermeulen (loose forward, Toulon, France, 39, 10 - 2t)

Backs (19):
Lukhanyo Am (centre, Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Curwin Bosch (utility back Cell C Sharks, 1, 0)
Damian de Allende (centre, DHL Stormers, 28, 15 - 3t)
Faf de Klerk (scrumhalf, Sale Sharks, England, 11, 0)
Robert du Preez (flyhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Aphiwe Dyantyi (wing, Emirates Lions, uncapped)
André Esterhuizen (centre, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Warrick Gelant (fullback, Vodacom Bulls, 2, 5 - 1t)
Travis Ismaiel (wing, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Elton Jantjies (flyhalf, Emirates Lions, 23, 203 - 2t, 38c, 39p)
Jesse Kriel (centre, Vodacom Bulls, 29, 40 - 8t)
Willie le Roux (fullback, Wasps, England, 41, 50 - 10t)
Makazole Mapimpi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Sibusiso Nkosi (wing, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)
Embrose Papier (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Handré Pollard (flyhalf, Vodacom Bulls, 26, 218 - 3t, 37c, 40p, 3d)
Frans Steyn (utility back, Montpellier, France, 56, 132 - 10t, 5c, 21p, 3d)
Ivan van Zyl (scrumhalf, Vodacom Bulls, uncapped)
Cameron Wright (scrumhalf, Cell C Sharks, uncapped)[/b]

Thanks LT - good thread!

So, England beaten by a hungover club side, discuss.

Siya Kolisi becomes the first black SA captain in history, amazing for the player and we'll deserved on form.

yappysnap wrote:Siya Kolisi becomes the first black SA captain in history, amazing for the player and we'll deserved on form.

Come 9th June he will be the first to do it in a Test, though Ralapelle did it in a no test game I believe.

Pieter-Steph du Toit captaining the side that will face Wales this coming weekend in Washington DC

I read that the SA RU have agreed with the government that the squad for the 2019 world cup will be 50% white and 50% black.

If the black players are as good as or better than the White players they are replacing then all is good...and they deserved to be in the squad on merit regardless of their colour. But forcing players in to the side who aren't as good just to meet a ridiculous quota is not doing the actual rugby team any good at all.

Including the international based players instantly makes the Bokkes a much more daunting prospect.
I thought Chiliboy Ralepelle was serving a ban? Or is that over now.

propdavid_london wrote:I thought Chiliboy Ralepelle was serving a ban?  Or is that over now.

Looking into it, he failed a drugs test in February 2014 (following a different failed test in 2010) and was banned for two years - but not until September 2015 - not sure if it was backdated, but would expired anyway.

Can't believe how poor some England players where on Sunday, Henry Trinder falling off tackles throughout.

Driver wrote:Can't believe how poor some England players where on Sunday, Henry Trinder falling off tackles throughout.

He was just following Robshaws lead....

Robshaw dropping off a huge number of tackles....very uncharacteristic....
Trinder I feel may have blown his chance to impress EJ.


Winners from the BaaBaas game IMO -
Curry - was very good at the breakdown, not sure what the turn over stats were but he seemed to get stuck in really well.
Ford - had one of his better games.

Cant think of many more positives.
Perhaps the Scrum looked a bit more solid since the 6N....

If i was Eddie Jones, Tom Curry would be my 7 for test 1.

6.Shields
7.Curry
8.Vunipola

Real dynamic back row which we did not have once in the 6N.

Did trinder come back on following his hia after 30 or so mins?

A worrying stat is that Mike Brown made a whole 1 metre on the wing on Sunday

It's just a question if who starts at 6 driver. Can't help but feel that Robshaw will be dropped after that performance. If shields is any where near ready after picking up new systems I'd agree he starts but it may be wilson.

I think Shields will be straight in, Eddie will want him playing as much as possible ahead of the world cup for England.

I have no problems with Mark Wilson playing 6 but at the same time i think we know what we'll get from him.

I wonder who he calls up for Jack Willis now?

The other curry, armond? Ewers st a push?

Wonder if Gary Graham gets a look in with the Jocks sniffing about him?

I was a bit of a citic of Eddie Jones when he got the England job but i was happy to be proved wrong by two six nations in a row.

He needs to add someone to coach the attack and defense pretty quick as we've been sussed by a few teams.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Did trinder come back on following his hia after 30 or so mins?

No, replaced on 27 minutes and never came back. Stats say he made 2 and missed 2 tackles.

Driver wrote:I wonder who he calls up for Jack Willis now?

It will be interesting to see who is called up, plus who replaces Redpath. Surprised no announcement has been made confirming the touring party yet.

Redpaths dad is -pleading with him to choose Scotland. Do you think he'll cave in and pick them.

If I was Gary Graham I would choose Scotland as well.

I think it would be harsh to drop Robshaw, especially when he was the only forward to turn up for the Six Nations and filled all across the back row as required. He had a poor game on Sunday and missed 6 tackles, but he's earned the right to prove it was a blip.

I'd have Robshaw, Curry and Vunipola in the back row with Isiekwe and Simmonds on the bench, but if you wanted to drop Robshaw I'd go with Wilson to start.

Shields can train with the squad on this tour and play in an emergency, but I think parachuting him straight into the T1 starting test team would be a bit much and comes across as a bit desperate.

I was impressed by Curry, Ford and Daly. Singleton and Mercer also ticked over nicely.

Launchbury and Robshaw offered very little in the pack and Brown offered nothing on the wing. Nothing ventured, nothing gained; but the latter is an experiment that can hopefully be consigned to the bin (along with Lawes at 6).

The Barbarians got a lot of joy through the midfield areas quite early on, and although Francis got a couple of tries I think we lacked a bit of test quality there with the starting pair.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Redpaths dad is -pleading with him to choose Scotland. Do you think he'll cave in and pick them.

If I was Gary Graham I would choose Scotland as well.

He's out for a year, isn't he? I guess his first thought will be to get fit, get playing for his club again and then see who gives him a call. I imagine both nations will be in his ear and it might come down to who says the right thing at the time.

robbo277 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Redpaths dad is -pleading with him to choose Scotland. Do you think he'll cave in and pick them.

If I was Gary Graham I would choose Scotland as well.

He's out for a year, isn't he? I guess his first thought will be to get fit, get playing for his club again and then see who gives him a call. I imagine both nations will be in his ear and it might come down to who says the right thing at the time.

Ah I completely forgot about that. Yeah good point.

If I had been Jones I would have given Solomona and Wade a shot on the two wings in the Baa-Baas games. I doubt they would have been able to save the game but it would have made England's back play much more interesting.

Robshaw clearly needs a rest in my book. He's not on form and this showed in spades on Sunday. I didn't understand why Robshaw was kept on whereas Mercer (who was playing well) had to leave. I think if he is dropped by Eddie it'll focus his mind and make him fight for his place a bit more. A fit and firing Robshaw is a valuable commodity. An off-form, struggling Robshaw is a liability. Sunday's match proved that.

There's no point in playing someone not at 100%, be it form or fitness. Remember the disaster that was RWC 2011? A certain Lewis Moody was being held together with staples and gaffer tape and was clearly nowhere near match fitness. A name and 60+ caps' experience is useless if it cannot be used in the proper manner.

My back row at present? Wilson, Curry, Vunipola with Simmons on the bench. Shields' appearance in the squad should give Robshaw some impetus.

Willis' & Redpath's replacements? I would like it to be Ewers for Willis, but I think that Eddie's more likely to pick Hughes. As for Redpath, it's likely to be Smith. However, I don't think we need another 10, so we could have another centre or one of the back three. As a long shot, Gabriel Ibitoye (mainly as EJ clearly doesn't consider Wade as a contender).

There will come a time with Robshaw when his radar will be off and he'll be lagging behind the play. He's never been able to rely on his feet to make up for his usually excellent vision, so when that goes....

Then he can be put out to pasture, but I would not be in a rush to get rid of him just yet. He does a great deal to hold the pack together.

My worry about Robshaw at the weekend was he was struggling with the pace of the game. Now if SA play a set-piece game as is traditional for them he will be fine, but (and especially at altitude) if they put pace on the ball as I believe their SR sides have been then again he could really struggle.

However Jones obviously has faith in what he brings to the side. In previous matches he has whipped under performing players off, but here when Wilson came on it was for Mercer.

Mr Bounce wrote:If I had been Jones I would have given Solomona and Wade a shot on the two wings in the Baa-Baas games. I doubt they would have been able to save the game but it would have made England's back play much more interesting.

Robshaw clearly needs a rest in my book. He's not on form and this showed in spades on Sunday. I didn't understand why Robshaw was kept on whereas Mercer (who was playing well) had to leave. I think if he is dropped by Eddie it'll focus his mind and make him fight for his place a bit more. A fit and firing Robshaw is a valuable commodity. An off-form, struggling Robshaw is a liability. Sunday's match proved that.

There's no point in playing someone not at 100%, be it form or fitness. Remember the disaster that was RWC 2011? A certain Lewis Moody was being held together with staples and gaffer tape and was clearly nowhere near match fitness. A name and 60+ caps' experience is useless if it cannot be used in the proper manner.

My back row at present? Wilson, Curry, Vunipola with Simmons on the bench. Shields' appearance in the squad should give Robshaw some impetus.

Willis' & Redpath's replacements? I would like it to be Ewers for Willis, but I think that Eddie's more likely to pick Hughes. As for Redpath, it's likely to be Smith. However, I don't think we need another 10, so we could have another centre or one of the back three. As a long shot, Gabriel Ibitoye (mainly as EJ clearly doesn't consider Wade as a contender).

If Robshaw needs a rest he shouldn't be going to South Africa.

I guess it will comes down to how he trains. With two weeks until the first test, if he's off the pace in training Eddie should plump for Wilson. However, if Robshaw looks strong in training, then he knows he has the character to put one bad match behind him.

In terms of Willis and Redpath replacements - I'm not sure they will be replaced. They didn't have an asterisk next to their names, but I think they were apprentice players in all but name. Eddie probably won't call up anyone from the Under 20s squad, so that's Ben Curry, Marcus Smith and Gabriel Ibitoye - who have all spent time around the senior squad - out the running.

I think the only chance is if he wants to bolster his first team options. He could call up Mercer or Hughes and Francis or Trinder if he wanted to get some experienced cover in. Or, if he's happy with his squad, he might just leave them unreplaced.

I still think Harry Williams might be replaced. As far as I can tell he came on as a substitute against Irish on 15-Apr after 50 minutes, got replaced himself in the 77th minute and hasn't played since. Yet he was named in the England squad a month later and nothing has been said since. Williams would definitely need replacing, as he's one of only two tight-heads named in the squad.

Nathan Hughes, Piers Francis and Jason Woodward have been called up to replace Jack Willis, Ben Te'o and Cameron Redpath.

Harry Williams is in the squad with no further front-row call-ups.

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/england-squad-for-south-africa-finalised/

As a wasps fan not happy Hughes is going, he needs to rest and let his past season injuries heal. Woodward defo after watching Brown but Francis! ok he scored two but was brushed aside by the tolon lads and matervasi. Could be a difficult three weeks but still looking forward to it especially if we don't put ourselves under pressure and use it for what it needs to be, a learning tour rather than a must win tour.

Francis appears to be there for cover and is unlikely to be playing a part in the tests. Farrell will start at 12 with the likely cover for that position coming from Lozowski who has usually gone well when played there. I think it will be between Slade and Lozowski as the starting 13, and Daly at 15. Can't see Brown starting at the moment although he is an EJ favourite.

I have to admit (also as a Wasps fan) to not being happy Hughes is going but I did call that one. Armand is obviously not one to fit into Eddie's black book, and neither is Ewers. Shame really. I'd like to see Wilson start at 6, but whether Eddie's got the gumption to drop both Robshaw AND Brown is doubtful. He'll keep one at least. Both are big game players but both are far from their best right now.

Question is, will Cipriani be on the bench? And in what capacity? 10 or 15?

Yoda wrote:As a wasps fan not happy Hughes is going, he needs to rest and let his past season injuries heal. Woodward defo after watching Brown but Francis! ok he scored two but was brushed aside by the tolon lads and matervasi. Could be a difficult three weeks but still looking forward to it especially if we don't put ourselves under pressure and use it for what it needs to be, a learning tour rather than a must win tour.

I don't think Eddie knows any way other than must win. He's never really rotated other than injury - although I will agree about Hughes. He doesn't make my 23 and I'm not sure if he's fully fit. I'd take Mercer if I want another option, but realistically you're looking at someone to potentially bench T2 and/or T3 if there's an injury, Mercer could fill that role.

Saying that, there are players missing: Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Kruis, Haskell, Underhill, Care, Te'o Joseph and Watson are all out so there are going to be new faces.

I think our strongest 23 for this tour is:
Mako, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Itoje, Robshaw, Curry, Vunipola, Youngs, Ford, May, Farrell, Slade, Solomona, Daly
Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Robson, Cipriani, Lozowski

Curry, Solomona, Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Robson and Lozowksi are all fairly new faces. George, Sinckler and Slade have a number of caps but mainly from the bench. Daly is in a new position and Cipriani is returning from a long absence. That's 14 of our 23. Even if Jones plumps for Marler, Hughes and Brown on that bench, he's still got 11 players who will see this as an opportunity to establish themselves, reestablish themselves or establish themselves in a new position or role. So even if he plumps for his strongest available, he'll learn something about some new faces.

I must admit, I'm not a huge Slade fan at 13. He's a good player but not seeing him really get into a game. I've watched him and he never really strikes me as a quality 13 option. Playing 3 natural 10's at 10/12/13 would make us quite predictive.

Although I'd prefer a genuine 13, Loz has looked more accomplished in this position imo. He has gas and seems stronger in contact than Slade, that or Daly.

I think with Woodward added I'd prefer Daly at 13 and Woodward at 15, although I'm a little concerned about Daly's defence at OC.

How often has Lozowski played at 13? As far as I know it has been pretty much just the play-off games. Meanwhile Slade has been playing 13 week in week out for several seasons now. I am however yet to be convinced by Slade - he always looks stylish but perhaps at the exclusion of effectiveness?

Slades not done it yet for England but he's not had a run of games. He's been brilliant for exeter.

Ahhh great ANOTHER f*%king foreigner in the England squad.

We must be the laughing stock of world rugby. The most players, the richest union...and a team filled with Aussies, Kiwis, and every other United Nations accents!!

Lozowski has played most of his games at 13 for Saracens and has been more impressive than Slade for me, who's flattered to deceive somewhat.

Agree LT, Slade always looks like a good runner when he gets going but isn't that effective tbh. I don't think Slade has been as good as people suggest, he just seems to quite hyped up a fair bit.

I wouldn't be too upset with Lozowksi at 13, although I'd personally be giving Slade the three games as I think he's been in the squad long enough and think he deserves a run.

Saw an article in the Telegraph (behind a paywall, so I'm going off the heading) calling for Lozowski at 13 and Isiewke starting at 6 (with Curry at 7 I believe).

With all the Robshaw-hating going on (after an admittedly bad performance), there have been surprisingly few mentions for a guy who just won a Premiership medal at 6. Although he is probably a lock playing 6, he's doing a good job in that position and Jones isn't averse to playing a lock at 6!

For me, Isiekwe makes the bench covering lock and flanker, with 2 specialist 8s in the matchday squad. But I can see a bit of merit in the idea of him starting at 6, especially if you have an eye on the future and don't want Robshaw in the starting line-up.

SA at home are formidable especially at heights,only the Crusaders have beaten all SA sides they`ve met.
Saracens may well be the best team in the world but Crusaders at full strength would run them close,the
squad.Is very much an experimental one but hopefully they will come good

I do not see 6 as being Isiekwe's long term position. I feel that like Lawes he will fill out and while he could bring attributes of a 6 to teh second row, would struggle at international level if started in the back row. However he has done well in teh second half of teh season playing there.

emack2 wrote:Saracens may well be the best team in the world

Not even the best club side in Europe

No More locks at 6.

No more funny accents! And I don't mean the South West accents.

That will only stop if clubs stop signing players who have developed etc in other countries.

We don't have to pick them 7.5

Its embarrassing. Players who cant get into the All blacks or other nations come over here and are fast tracked straight in....

And a coach will.continue to pick the players he thinks will deliver him wins. Unless the rfu come.out and say we will implement a policy based on having been born here have both parents born here grew up etc etc expect players to be picked on merit in the eyes of the coaches. We can't pick players outside of the league so it'll wasps newcastle stopped bringing in players developed abroad it won't stop. Write to falcons and push your case.

An Aussie coach will continue to pick them yes.

I suspect an English coach wouldnt be so quick to pick up foreign journeymen.

Like gary graham. But any coach would pick the players he thinks best. As Lancaster did as woodward did etc etc

30 of the 34 players touring were in the English Academy system.

22 of the 24 players deemed not available were in the English Academy system.