Alun Wyn Jones, Lions Captain - The Thread

[Sgt_Pooly]

First topic message reminder :

A thread to to debate the qualities (or lack of depending on your standpoint) of AWJ as Lions captain.

[Old Man]

You might very well see a couple of SA players aged 35 and over during this series.

Morne Steyn 36
Duane Vermeulen will be 35 in July
Frans Steyn is 34

I doubt they will last 80+ mins. I hope SA have 3 ready made subs.

Duane Vermeulen will potentially play 80 minutes, the two Steyns will be subs

But..... Duane Vermulen is 35 years old, surely he will not last 80 mins........

Only joking...

Well he isn't, he's 34.....

It'll be interesting to see how he goes actually has he's obviously not played much rugby over the last 2 years.

He has played quite a bit since we started playing rugby in November last year.

He played thevSuper Rugby unlocked, The Currie Cup, now the Rainbow Cup, and was awarded SA player of the year. He is in good form.

[No 7&1/2]

More background staff announced then. Heavily Welsh focused. No news on the additional coach Gatland said he wanted when name dropping Farrell though. Possibly going to SA 1 man down?

https://twitter.com/lionsofficial/status/1397858941552504834?s=19

[RiscaGame]

No real surprise to see a heavy WRU background staff, when some of them have toured previously too. I certainly expected the likes of Prav Mathema and certainly Bobby Stridgeon to go again.

[Sgt_Pooly]

You might very well see a couple of SA players aged 35 and over during this series.

Morne Steyn 36
Duane Vermeulen will be 35 in July
Frans Steyn is 34

I doubt they will last 80+ mins. I hope SA have 3 ready made subs.

Duane Vermeulen will potentially play 80 minutes, the two Steyns will be subs

But..... Duane Vermulen is 35 years old, surely he will not last 80 mins........

Only joking...

Well he isn't, he's 34.....

It'll be interesting to see how he goes actually has he's obviously not played much rugby over the last 2 years.

He has played quite a bit since we started playing rugby in November last year.

He played thevSuper Rugby unlocked, The Currie Cup, now the Rainbow Cup, and was awarded SA player of the year. He is in good form.

And he's an outstanding physical athlete, huge fan. With him, PSDT and Etzebeth firing, SA will take some stopping.

I recall England playing them off the park in a few tests in 2016 or 17 with a fast paced offloading game and then just running out of steam in the 2nd half and getting beat in each game.

[Old Man]

You might very well see a couple of SA players aged 35 and over during this series.

Morne Steyn 36
Duane Vermeulen will be 35 in July
Frans Steyn is 34

I doubt they will last 80+ mins. I hope SA have 3 ready made subs.

Duane Vermeulen will potentially play 80 minutes, the two Steyns will be subs

But..... Duane Vermulen is 35 years old, surely he will not last 80 mins........

Only joking...

Well he isn't, he's 34.....

It'll be interesting to see how he goes actually has he's obviously not played much rugby over the last 2 years.

He has played quite a bit since we started playing rugby in November last year.

He played thevSuper Rugby unlocked, The Currie Cup, now the Rainbow Cup, and was awarded SA player of the year. He is in good form.

And he's an outstanding physical athlete, huge fan. With him, PSDT and Etzebeth firing, SA will take some stopping.

I recall England playing them off the park in a few tests in 2016 or 17 with a fast paced offloading game and then just running out of steam in the 2nd half and getting beat in each game.

Us Bok supporters have wiped the Alister Coetzee tenure (2016/17) from memory, we don’t talk about it

[doctor_grey]

AWJ is the captain. However, if he has to go off and Hogg is on the pitch, then the captaincy is still in fine hands.

[mikey_dragon]

Who apart from Marcell Coetzee is seen as the successor to Duane Vermeulen?

[Old Man]

From the Sharks there is a young player making a name for himself, he is quite highly rated, Sikhumbuze Notshe, unfortunately he got injured and won’t get an opportunity for the Lions series, the issue is there are so many loose forwards that could slotin at 8 itis hard to predict.

I haven’t really watched the local rugby (or any rugby for that matter in depth) so difficult to say.

[Rugby Fan]

Damien McKenzie got a red card in today's match against the Reds. Just a reminder of how readily referees are prepared to give reds, no matter who the recipient is.

[Old Man]

Ref didn’t have much choice there though, it was an upward drive with the left shoulder, no mitigating circumstances

[Mr Bounce]

AWJ: Great Captain; Great Player; Top Bloke etc etc

However, one thing we can all agree on - that combover is freaking dreadful. He can add worst haircut on tour to his list of accolades

Just cut it man!

Note, I started losing my hair at 28, and I speak from experience that cutting it off is the preferred outcome!! I now rock the "Statham" style - although not the body...

[doctor_grey]

I think Jonny Hill has the worst haircut, though a combover is not good. Do we really want anyone with a mullet representing us?

[Guest]

Only a matter of time til rugby went down the football route and fans cared about players’ looks! What happened to old days of the ugly, grizzled forwards?! Don’t remember anyone commenting on players’ haircuts in the 70s and 80s! They’ll be holding FHM men’s rugby style awards next, as voted for by the fans!

[Mr Bounce]

Only a matter of time til rugby went down the football route and fans cared about players’ looks! What happened to old days of the ugly, grizzled forwards?! Don’t remember anyone commenting on players’ haircuts in the 70s and 80s! They’ll be holding FHM men’s rugby style awards next, as voted for by the fans!

To be fair, Mickey Skinner and Mike Teague in the late 80s and early 90s sported some seriously bad hair...

I figure that Jones is emulating his inner 70s barnet. I remember his blonde dyed mullet as well. Neither were good

Just a bit of fun so don't take it to heart.

Jonny Hill's Amish redneck chic look also does him no favours.

[y ddraig goch]

There is no better man to lead the Lions but we might end up appreciating just how good Warburton was as a result.

Most of the leaders in the squad are whiners, including AWJ unfortunately. He keeps on the right side of the line most of the time but Biggar, Farrell, or Sexton who was an option wouldn't be good captains. Hogg is a full back and that's far from ideal, he's also a different kind of 'lead by example' player that isn't suited to captaincy.

The Lions could have used someone like Underhill who is probably the equivalent of Kolisi. We might see Curry given a shot at some point.

[No 7&1/2]

Just reading some quotes around Jones and the locks for the tests. Matfield via an interview with XV:

“He’s a phenomenal player and an immense character,” Victor Matfield tells The XV. Beyond the mutual respect fostered on and off the pitch, the former Springbok lock recognises some of the barbs projected towards Jones.

“I’ve read a lot and heard a lot of talk about how he’s too old, how he can’t contribute anymore because he’s 35, but that’s nonsense,” adds Matfield, who represented his country 127 times, making him South Africa’s most-capped player of all time.
“It was the right decision to select him as captain. There was a lot of talk of [Maro] Itoje getting it, but he’s not even captain of England. How can you get in a group like this and all of a sudden you need to pull guys together when you haven’t pulled your country together? That’s really the most important job of a captain, more important than winning a collision or stealing a few lineouts,” said Matfield.

He goes onto to say he sees Itoje as a flanker not a lock as he doesn't see any area where Maro is the best ie lineout, carrying etc.

Also saw the quotes from Quinlan saying he wouldn't pick Itoje at all nicked from Walesonline which they've nicked from On the Ball!:

'"I am picking Jonny Hill in the second row because I think he is a great player," Quinlan told On The Ball.

"Some of the English players have been judged harshly. They were poor in the Six Nations, but there is mitigation around that with a lot of Saracens players not having played matches.

"If Alun Wyn Jones isn’t captain, then it is Itoje and Jonny Hill in the second row.

"Obviously Jones is captain, so he has got to start. That may change, Warren Gatland said that at the beginning when he announced the captaincy as well, but ideally you want your captain starting all three Tests.

"The reason I am going for Jonny Hill is because Itoje’s form in the Six Nations wasn’t great. He is a superb player, he is world-class, and he is someone who will inevitably play well in the warm-up games before the first Test."'

Got to admit I don't really follow through on the consistency of their base logic on the picks!

[Old Man]

Its just all subjective personal opinions, Vicki should have retired and stayed retired, when he played in the 2015 RWC he was a shadow of his former self.

[flyhalffactory]

The wealth of second row options is staggering and you couldn't be disappointed with any combo from these warriors.... Jones, Itoje, Lawes, Henderson, Hill and Beirne. Form will definitely come into it and the ability to perform equally well at club/international level, but also experience and global respect. The other crucial factor will be how SA have perceived how our players have performed during the international window, they will be targetting perceived weaknesses, so discipline will be the deal breaker.

At the age of 35, AWJ just keeps going and going, he proved during this 6Ns he is one of the fittest players around, he can easily last 80 mins but Gatland knows he could bring on a quality lock after 50 mins to replace him. He holds the world test match appearance record – 157 games for Wales & the B&I Lions and was within 10 mins of becoming the first player to win 4 Six Nations Grand Slams. Gatland knows him inside out and when it comes to appointing a captain for this Lions tour, Gatland will know that the articulate Jones (a solicitor) pretty much ticks every box. Other players have captaincy credentials (especially Henderson), but Jones’ performance on and off the field stands out.

Interesting to see see the Lions website has Beirne as a lock, so based on that if we are talking international level form, then it has to be Henderson, AWJ or Beirne , if we are talking consistent form and repaidly improving locks it has to Hill / AWJ and finally if we are talking banked points then it has to be AWJ / Itoje

Personally I would select Beirne at 6 with Henderson 5 and AWJ 4, with Lawes or Itoje to cover lock/BSF on the bench

[flyhalffactory]

There is no better man to lead the Lions but we might end up appreciating just how good Warburton was as a result.

Most of the leaders in the squad are whiners, including AWJ unfortunately. He keeps on the right side of the line most of the time but Biggar, Farrell, or Sexton who was an option wouldn't be good captains. Hogg is a full back and that's far from ideal, he's also a different kind of 'lead by example' player that isn't suited to captaincy.

The Lions could have used someone like Underhill who is probably the equivalent of Kolisi. We might see Curry given a shot at some point.

I think Tom Curry was captain last weekend against Bristol, he had an excellent game and communicated with the ref really well

[Sgt_Pooly]

Who apart from Marcell Coetzee is seen as the successor to Duane Vermeulen?

Coetzee is no spring chicken either at 30 and has had his fair share of injuries.

I keep hearing of Coetzee as an 8, I didn't know he played there for Ulster. I watched him in Super rugby coming through for the Sharks and he was very much a flanker, I never thought he'd big enough to play 8 tbh.

[mikey_dragon]

Who apart from Marcell Coetzee is seen as the successor to Duane Vermeulen?

Coetzee is no spring chicken either at 30 and has had his fair share of injuries.

I keep hearing of Coetzee as an 8, I didn't know he played there for Ulster. I watched him in Super rugby coming through for the Sharks and he was very much a flanker, I never thought he'd big enough to play 8 tbh.

No but if he can go as long as Vermeulen then he’ll be the natural successor. I’d say 6’4 and 116kg is a pretty big 8. He’s very powerful in contact too.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I never realised he was that big....he must have packed it on in Northern Ireland....all those Ulster fry ups for you

[Old Man]

Marcel is quite the topic of conversation in SA at the moment, I think he has a good chance to be selected. If it wasn’t for injuries he would have most likely been at the RWC

[nlpnlp]

As a former second row – ok only at semi pro county level player– it makes me laugh when I see no marks like 7 ½ constantly criticising AWJ. I am English and no lover of the Welsh, but AWJ has everything you would want in a second row. Add in his longevity and clear desire to win and you have a very special player.

I couldn’t understand the debate about who would be captain of this Lions tour – there was only ever one candidate AWJ.

In my long and undistinguished career I played against a couple of England second rows – one a former captain – so like to think I know a little bit about this. I have no doubt that barring injury AWJ will start all 3 tests and that we will win the series. I appreciate that this will disappoint some of the posters on this site who would love nothing other than for the Lions and AWJ to fail.

[BamBam]

And as I once coached an under 7s touch rugby side it makes me laugh to see no marks like nlpnlp criticise Eddie Jones.

See how stupid an argument it is to talk about the playing ability of posters

[No 7&1/2]

As a former second row – ok only at semi pro county level player– it makes me laugh when I see no marks like 7 ½ constantly criticising AWJ.  I am English and no lover of the Welsh, but AWJ has everything you would want in a second row.  Add in his longevity and clear desire to win and you have a very special player.

I couldn’t understand the debate about who would be captain of this Lions tour – there was only ever one candidate AWJ.

In my long and undistinguished career I played against a couple of England second rows – one a former captain – so like to think I know a little bit about this.  I have no doubt that barring injury AWJ will start all 3 tests and that we will win the series.  I appreciate that this will disappoint some of the posters on this site who would love nothing other than for the Lions and AWJ to fail.

Bit left field that comment. Which criticism do you disagree with? I'm trying to remember where I last came across you and why you seem so annoyed. Was it last weekend when you made a fool of yourself talking about tuilagi and sale. I think it was! Bless.

[doctor_grey]

Win or lose, who would want to see them fail? They might lose the series, but still not fail. I will support them, of course, but just want to see a great series.

[Guest]

Oh, I am 100% certain that should the Lions NOT do well a lot of the blame will fall individually to AWJ. You mark my words! Certain ‘fans’, I can guarantee you, do not want to see him do well so that they can revel in the ‘I told you so’ camp. Anonymous internet warriors who like the anonymity to play the tough guy. You know who I’m talking about

[No 7&1/2]

He may be good this time you never know.

[flyhalffactory]

And as I once coached an under 7s touch rugby side it makes me laugh to see no marks like nlpnlp criticise Eddie Jones.

See how stupid an argument it is to talk about the playing ability of posters

"Eddie Jones"?
Are you on the correct forum?

Anyway back to the topic on hand, if all the Locks are on form then there is no doubt based on 2021 performance levels and the ability to understand/appreciate/execute the current laws on an international level, then it has to be AWJ on the THL channel and a jackal hybrid 5 on the loose who is the link in the rucks/mauls for the back row and most importantly who can be competitive under pressure, without giving penalties away

[BamBam]

And I was alluding to nlpnlp's constant criticism of Eddie Jones, keep up lad. As I once played rugby manager 2007 on the PlayStation it means I'm more qualified than the rest of you keyboard warriors are to comment on coaches

[flyhalffactory]

And I was alluding to nlpnlp's constant criticism of Eddie Jones, keep up lad. As I once played rugby manager 2007 on the PlayStation it means I'm more qualified than the rest of you keyboard warriors are to comment on coaches

What has you playing computer games or Eddie Jones got to do with this forum topic?....which is "why AWJ should or shouldn't be Lions captain",

So BamBam, do you think he should be captain? If you do then qualify your opinion with reasons based on rugby stats, matches or international instances, if you don't think he should be then also qualify why he shouldn't and also state (with qualifications) who should be captain instead of him

Obviously qualify with facts or figures as we know one contributor is suggesting that AWJ cannot last the full 80 mins but as he played full games during the 6Ns 2021 then this is plainly false

[doctor_grey]

I dunno fellers. For me, AWJ passes the unquantifiable Eye Test.
I will allow him to remain as captain.....

[Sgt_Pooly]

Stuart Barnes and Jeremy Guscott both played to pretty good level....neither have a clue now!

I have friends who played to varying levels, a few to quite a decent level. It's astonishing the levels of interest/knowledge between them and this certainly doesn't align with the higher playing experience. I recall one pal who played 7 at semi-pro, didn't have the first clue about the breakdown laws, he used to just play to the ref.

[flyhalffactory]

Stuart Barnes and Jeremy Guscott both played to pretty good level....neither have a clue now

That's your opinion

Jeremy Guscott "Prince Of Centres", England & B&I Lions legend and recognised unbiased rugby pundit throughout the world in your words "hasn't got a clue"

I'd suggest saying "in my opinion" before making such sweeping statements (with no qualifications), otherwise they'll be perceived as just incendiary

[Sgt_Pooly]

It's obviously my opinion.....I wrote it.

If you get confused with this, just try and imagine it at the beginning of any future post  

[Sgt_Pooly]

Marcel is quite the topic of conversation in SA at the moment, I think he has a good chance to be selected. If it wasn’t for injuries he would have most likely been at the RWC

Seems have missed the boat OM.

[flyhalffactory]

It's obviously my opinion.....I wrote it.

If you get confused with this, just try and imagine it at the beginning of any future post  

Aah understand compadre

Based on that premise then....
The general rule of thumb is the higher the standard of rugby you've played usually means, you've played more games, you've had more exposure to higher quality refs, coaches, fans and fellow players.....combined with an ongoing interest (chat forums, going to live club and international games) usually results in more of an appreciation and understanding of the game. Of course as you say, there are exceptions to the rule... in any walk of life.

Guscott is pretty much unbiased, (bit like Will Greenwood), which goes against the grain of certain nationalities as they expect them to be a "Matt Dawson" blindly biased contributor, we have a few "pundits" who seem to anti-scottish but in reality they are often correct in hindsight (it's just we don't want to acknowledge it)

[Old Man]

Marcel is quite the topic of conversation in SA at the moment, I think he has a good chance to be selected. If it wasn’t for injuries he would have most likely been at the RWC

Seems have missed the boat OM.

Rassie confirmed Coetzee needs a bit more game time, he is still under consideration. Vermeulen sustained an injury yesterday and might be out as well.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Guscott is in my opinion a poor tv pundit in that he keeps talking about the things the forwards do in the set piece and he clearly does not have a clue, especially when he makes comments about the front row. I have played at county level and above but back in the strictly amateur days, (70s) I played across the back 5 and broke the trend for extra large forwards, I could catch, pass and even had a bit of speed and a side step. However, no matter what level I played at, I would never think I new more about back play than a back. I know it is a different game today and backs have to mix it with forwards in loose play, but to see a centre criticising a prop or a hooker about their technique is massively irritating. He is unbiased, unlike Jiffy, but often clueless about the things he comments on.

Notice that none of the other channels have ever tried to draw him to their team, that says a lot.

Like most ex-players of the days gone by, he seems to have a need to keep himself in the headlines, Dawson id especially bad at this. He will make very controversial statements to keep his name in the headlines and make himself feel relevant to the public, when there are probably hundreds of people who understand todays game better. Warburton is a classic example of this. BBC should dump the dinosaurs and bring in people that understand the modern game.

A classic example of a really goo presenter and a knowledgeable pundit are Mark Durden-Smith and David Flatman.

Onto topic though, I dislike AJW, I do not know why, I just do. However his record speaks for itself, he played 80 minutes in the 6N so he has proved that he is still fit enough. Up on the high veld, I do not know if that will be the same. However, in the absence of anyone anywhere near as experienced he in the man for the job until he is proved to unfit for the task.

[No 7&1/2]

Guscott is in my opinion a poor tv pundit in that he keeps talking about the things the forwards do in the set piece and he clearly does not have a clue, especially when he makes comments about the front row. I have played at county level and above but back in the strictly amateur days, (70s) I played across the back 5 and broke the trend for extra large forwards, I could catch, pass and even had a bit of speed and a side step. However, no matter what level I played at, I would never think I new more about back play than a back. I know it is a different game today and backs have to mix it with forwards in loose play, but to see a centre criticising a prop or a hooker about their technique is massively irritating. He is unbiased, unlike Jiffy, but often clueless about the things he comments on.

Notice that none of the other channels have ever tried to draw him to their team, that says a lot.

Like most ex-players of the days gone by, he seems to have a need to keep himself in the headlines, Dawson id especially bad at this. He will make very controversial statements to keep his name in the headlines and make himself feel relevant to the public, when there are probably hundreds of people who understand todays game better. Warburton is a classic example of this. BBC should dump the dinosaurs and bring in people that understand the modern game.

A classic example of a really goo presenter and a knowledgeable pundit are Mark Durden-Smith and David Flatman.

Onto topic though, I dislike AJW, I do not know why, I just do. However his record speaks for itself, he played 80 minutes in the 6N so he has proved that he is still fit enough. Up on the high veld, I do not know if that will be the same. However, in the absence of anyone anywhere near as experienced he in the man for the job until he is proved to unfit for the task.

I'm in the opposite side of that first point. Really annoys me when a back simply says not a clue what went on there its all a mystery etc when it comes to scrums.  You're getting a good wage to know and explain!

Guscott is terrible though. Down there with Dallaglio and Goode.

[BamBam]

And I was alluding to nlpnlp's constant criticism of Eddie Jones, keep up lad. As I once played rugby manager 2007 on the PlayStation it means I'm more qualified than the rest of you keyboard warriors are to comment on coaches

What has you playing computer games or Eddie Jones got to do with this forum topic?....which is "why AWJ should or shouldn't be Lions captain",

So BamBam, do you think he should be captain? If you do then qualify your opinion with reasons based on rugby stats, matches or international instances, if you don't think he should be then also qualify why he shouldn't and also state (with qualifications) who should be captain instead of him

Obviously qualify with facts or figures as we know one contributor is suggesting that AWJ cannot last the full 80 mins but as he played full games during the 6Ns 2021 then this is plainly false

My computer game experience is as relevant as all the boasting about semi pro rugby above

As for Jones, as long as all the second rows selected have the same opportunity to stake a claim for the test side I'll be happy. Pick the best XV then select the captain

As we've seen above though, we're already lining up excuses for him in case the Lions don't do well! Apparently he won't be to blame in any scenario, the "Internet white knights" are scrabbling for their shields already

[Sgt_Pooly]

I agree WPI, Guscott shoudl be nowhere near TV punditary....or the media for that matter. Another particularly bad one is Woodward, it's like he doesn't even watch rugby anymore.

Two legends of the English game that just seem so out of touch with modern rugby.

Playing to a particularly high standard just seems to offer you more opportunity in the media from what I gather....it doesn't automatically mean offering much more in ways of insight (compared to say a regular professional) There will be the odd great that slips through the net and actually offers something worth listening to now and again mind.

[flyhalffactory]

Pick the best XV then select the captain

Only someone who has never or rarely played the game (at any level) would state that.

A captain is much more than been capable of commanding a 1st 15 slot and it certainly becomes more apparent as the playing levels go up..... but don't stress, Gatland has shown enough gonads to hopefully pick on form not getting swayed by the media frenzied banked credits "superstars" that certain sections will clamour for e.g. dropping AWJ, Warburton and BOD for better performing players

Regarding Guscott and his audacity to comment on the dark arts of forward play, I've listened to him over the years, like a few on I played in the BR / Lock during the 80s normally applying the dirty work on the blind-side. I've heard enough common sense and knowledge of scrums, mauls and rucks coming from him to disagree that he isn't an up-to-date pundit.
I've heard more nonsense from Warburton and POC during the last 18 months particularly with to recent law changes in the set play and loose than I've ever heard from Guscott.
However, (like Woodward), Guscott is pretty fair and unbiased......

[BamBam]

Only someone who pretends to have played the game keeps banging on about their playing credentials

You're over compensating for something lad

[Sgt_Pooly]

Good for you Fly, I'm happy that you like them.

I must admit, Woodward was in excellent form during the 6N...particularly the comment regarding Ollie Lawrence (30 plus appearances for Worcester).....

"I've not seen him play for Worcester"

An absolute joke.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

It's good that the BeeB only have the "other" home nations games. Less of the cr@p that we usually get. Who is taking over from Inverdale, Gabby Logan? She will certainly know more about rugby that he does.

All the ITV, Sky and BT presenting teams are a couple of notches better than the BeeB. Perhaps I am doing them an injustice (not the presenters, they should be chewing the cud in a pasture somewhere), their budgets might not stretch to employing someone who has a name and is competent.

[flyhalffactory]

Only someone who pretends to have played the game keeps banging on about their playing credentials

You're over compensating for something lad

BamBam, I've "liked" your post to show you I didn't "dislike" you. I try not to "dislike" without at least giving the poster the courtesy of qualified reply. I try to either "like" or reply with my opinion.

So that you fully understand my view....this is a forum for everyone, no matter if we have actual playing experience, watching live games, watching games on the box or just reading sports columns.

With regard to a pundit not knowing "one" particular players history but yet having a deep understanding the ins and outs of the mechanics of the game.....well it speaks volumes

[No 7&1/2]

Good for you Fly, I'm happy that you like them.

I must admit, Woodward was in excellent form during the 6N...particularly the comment regarding Ollie Lawrence (30 plus appearances for Worcester).....

"I've not seen him play for Worcester"

An absolute joke.

Its names over quality.

[Sgt_Pooly]

There's a big difference not knowing a players history and not having seen him play a game.....I don't understand how in any level of punderity that that would be ok.

The BBC operates in the dark ages pundit wise, it needs a major overhaul.

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