'better for everyone. The SA teams will mean bigger, tougher games'

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Interesting article here.
https://www.the42.ie/south-africa-pro16-5451128-May2021/


Its from a SA point of view but there was also this line: There is hope that the Pro16 could double or treble its turnover in the next six or seven years.


More competition, tougher games, big name players and teams with big fan bases, a straight forward league instead of conferences, better refs (hopefully). Sounds good to me. If Benetton get up to speed it would boost Italian interest too.


I also heard that it won't be called the pro16. Its going to get a new name.

Jordan Venter

Old Man wrote:Jordan Venter

Sad story.

I am guess if the SRU signed him they have great faith in him

It does show his determination where it say about him having to go back to school and all he had to do to catch up.

Brendan wrote:
Did you ever think the Pro16 is a blessing for having 160 professional players being able to be based in Wales not be curse.

It's been the main reason Ireland and Wales can compete to win the 6 nations and Scotland are getting stronger.

PhilBB wrote:There's very little credibility in a competition where a) teams don't play each other twice in a season (home and away) and b) where how the fixtures fall dictates how successful a team can be (i.e. the interference of the international game negatively impacts on a true competition).

You're right about the top 8 but, again, it won't be a true measure of the best teams.

This isn't a proper competition. It's just something to fill the time between European and International fixtures. Once the SA teams cotton on to that, it will be interesting to see what comes next. I think Mr Rupert's links to CVC will then come out in the wash.

Agreed. The Pro?? is like the ugly sibling that CVC had to take with it when it bought control in the main prize. Nothing

The quote in the title sounds like gaslighting. "It will be better and you will enjoy it. Or else."

It doesn't look like anything has changed in the Pro?? other than the IRFU, in combination with the Pro??, has managed to convince enough people of the financial imperative to maintain the competition with new revenue in the form of the desperate South Africans. There is quite literally no improvement to the competition other than revenue. The league/division/play off title won't mean 'more' just because it has South Africans in it now. Any competition with conferences, where teams aren't playing each other equally and on fair terms, is already pointless. It's not a competition, it's just a way to play games of rugby in between the internationals. The sooner this charade of a competition dies the better.

There's a lot of money to be made on the corporate gravy train and the last 8 years of the Pro competition has had all the hallmarks of dubious mismanagement and distortion of the business in to something completely dysfunctional and contradictory to its true purpose.

The Pro 16 won’t have any conferences, it is a straight round robin where everyone plays everyone, the rainbow cup is just a one off short term fix for this year.

As for the desperate South Africans, I suspect the current economic climate makes everyone desperate.

Brendan wrote:The great thing with the euro cup system is it provides a way to allow team like the Cheetahs, Griquas and Pumas a way to show they are good enough to be included in the Pro16 league in the future and help build professional rugby in SA.

Why? Why would building South African rugby be a stated aim for the Pro16? Also, what would be the requirement to be 'good enough' to play in this league? Are you sure there are any standards anymore? Why are we pretending that the Pro12 didn't just cut its own season short for no good reason last year? The are no standards and the league is at probably its lowest ever value in relation to the two European competitor leagues.

I hope the other 3 unions realise by now they are being totally shafted by the Irish, who appear to want to turn the competition in to 'tax haven wealth + southern hemisphere talent', regardless of the other stakeholders and their interests.

The problem with this ridiculously shortsighted move to bring the South Africans in is that, eventually, you quickly run out of revenue. The South Africans will treat the league as everyone else does: they'll attend their home games, they'll care about the derbies, but they'll quickly grow bored of the novelty of playing in Europe. They'll hate the substandard refereeing. They'll resent the low standard of rugby on offer. The format will alienate them from caring until the final weeks of the season i.e. the play offs and final.

The Pro?? is already struggling to stay in touch with the English and the French leagues. The aim for the Celtic League was always to have enough revenue to be able to pay their international players to play at home, while also maintaining the clubs as businesses and/or providing the unions with enough revenue to fund the 'grassroots'. As long as enough international players are playing at home, to keep the national teams competitive, and there is enough money to develop academy children in to professionals, then the competition is working for the unions. Competing in Europe is the added benefit of keeping all your best players at home.

The issue is clear: the Pro?? has run out of money. It has failed. It cannot stay in touch with the English, let alone the French. The Scottish clubs have given up and have allowed their test starts to leave, plunging them back down to the status of also-rans. Instead, they're focusing on recruitment fom England and the Pacific, picking up players who are already developed and will add immediate impact and value for money. The cost is clear: these players aren't Scottish and the grassroots pathway is not getting enough funding to do the job of actually sustaining Scottish rugby. It's only Scottish in name, colour, and badge - not in player pathway or playing talent, these are too inefficient ways to produce professional rugby players so the SRU now fills all their teams with foreigners and pretends that Scottish rugby is thriving when it's clearly in a desperate state. The Welsh are increasingly doing the same, allowing their players to leave despite the 60 cap rule. At the same time the funding is being lost from the academies, hence so many of the best young Welsh players going over the border to the English school/academy system (the only notable talent to break through in the last 2-3 years have finished their development in England). The only country this is working for is the Irish - and only because it has given them a disproportionate position of comfort, due to their financial position of being a corporate financial haven for Europe, from which to launch their European campaigns. Not to mention the Italians, who are being kicked from pillar to post with every new restructuring, which only adds instability and a lack of future planning that prevents them from developing their own player pathways.

It's ridiculous, it's a league that has fundamentally failed in every meaningful sense and yet you're suggesting that the new aim for the league should be to develop South African rugby? What kind of fresh hell is this?! It is the anti-competitve behaviour of the Irish, in conjunction with the various organisations that are separate yet quite obviously sympathetic to/influenced by the IRFU, that has led to the competition being as weak as it is. There is no room for growth in Ireland, no way of adding anymore revenue, so what is the proposal? Add South Africa, a country ravaged by poverty and is nearly 10,000 miles away from northern Europe. TIt's not a wealthy country, all they are doing is adding a touch more revenue - more importantly, they're keeping the corpose of the Pro?? alive for the sake of CVC - to keep the competition going for another 2-3 years. Then they'll have to find more revenue as the gap to the English and French has grow bigger yet again. This is not a sustainable growth model, you cannot just keep adding more and more disparate nations to this joke of league without eventually snapping the whole thing off at the base - which I hope will be the WRU doing what is right and killing it when it becomes clear to CVC that the competition is dead and the Celtic nations need something else.

Let the Pro?? die. It is not more important to maintain the corporate jobs of men and women who have displayed split or partial loyalties to the Celtic League for a long time than it is to sustain rugby in the Celtic League nations. It is far more important to maintain rugby: clubs, international teams, players, systems and pathways, as was always intended. The Scottish model of pretending that every single Englishman playing professional rugby is a potential Scotland international is not acceptable. This is not what rugby is about unless you have some truly cynical, dead-eyed idea about what nationally representative sport should be (money and administration, apparently). Nor is tolerating the financial stagnation of the league and the evident impossibility of reasonable future growth in the name of rewarding the one team that has been able to make a success out of the Pro project. The Pro?? has had more than enough time to come to terms with its failure, particularly in the last 3 years, and the process for a managed transition in to something fundamentally new that is able to produce sustainable revenue for any and all constituent parties is the only way forward now. I hope that is what is happening but it doesn't seem out of the question that there is no small amount of corruption among the people controlling the league on the basis of their own personal/professional benefit.

Sustaining this absolute mess in sole favour of the Irish is just setting everyone up for a more painful and drastic failure further down the line. The Irish cannot compete with the English or the French so something has to give. Given CVC now has sway over both the English and Pro?? leagues, the only reasonable long term option is a B&I league. It needs to happen. When Celtic Rugby turns in to 'Irish fans justify the Celtic League's aim of developing South African rugby on the basis that it props up the IRFU's artificial wealth and success' you know time's up.

Old Man wrote:
How much impact does a team have on commercial flights, other than if it is a chartered flight? Negligible.

Geography is only a matter of convenience, when all the other factors suggest it won't happen. Why would the Premiership include the Welsh teams in their comp?

The Welsh teams already can’t compete with the Irish team caps, it isn’t going to improve if they join the Premiership.

Ireland is a tax haven due to its links to the American financial system, where many of the banks are/were Irish-owned. The American influence in Ireland, in opposition to British interests, has a long history and persists to this day, with Clinton's role in NI being a prime example. The political interests between Ireland and the USA are clear but not really worth discussing here. In purely financial terms, Ireland's status as a corporate tax haven was apparent in its demise in 2008 but, propped up by the EU and global finance, the system effectively just recalibrated instead of reforming. The UK isn't a tax haven, it relies on the City of London for its wealth but its corporate and legal model is entirely different to Ireland's - which is why so many key rugby institutions are based in Dublin, not London, despite England being the home of rugby. England and Wales are as good as one country in every meaningful sense. More importantly, in rugby terms, everything is still linked between England and Wales. Our amateur clubs play each other in tours/friendlies. Our university teams play regional BUCS games with the English universities from the south West. Our best young players, like Rees Zammit and Callum Sheedy, are choosing to hop across the border and finish off their development in the elite school and academy systems of England and it is a relatively tolerated exchange on the basis that the schools and English clubs benefit, and so does the Welsh player and, eventually, the WRU. This is done because Wales cannot compete with the private education system of South Africa or Ireland as it simply doesn't have the wealth on its own. It does, however, have a reciprocal and intertwined rugby culture with England that is mutually beneficial to both countries (in so far as they are different countries, which is not relevant in many administrative or financial ways). The grassroots and working class nature of the sport in Wales means we produce some of the most naturally talented players in Europe, certainly in the UK or Ireland, which usually becomes clear during Lions tours despite the small population size and lack of wealth in Wales. At the same time, these ties also help the English as well: the Uni BUCS games have helped produce Sam Underhill and Alex Dombrandt when they might otherwise have slipped away from professional rugby altogether.

The issue standing in the way of a B&I league is the English and the current pyramid system. There are many teams that will quite rightly feel resentful if/when ringfencing occurs and the second tier of English rugby is killed off in the way the WRU destroyed the Welsh pyramid 20 years ago. However, the long term success of the Premiership relies on their ability to stay in touch with the finances in France (the Premiership beats the Top 14 in almost every other way) and it's possible that a B&I comp is the way to do it. In any case, it's true that the WRU lacks leverage to make this happen, but they cannot just stay silent and allow themselves to be turned in to a quite literal second class stakeholder of the Celtic League when it's clear that Wales is at worst Ireland's equal in rugby and, more accurately, their superior, despite the annual cycle of Irish arrogance, then shock, then resentment towards Wales' performances at international level (where Ireland still have to pick players like CJ Stander, despite the wealth that has been poured in to their grassroots and academy development systems in the last 20 years). It's not an acceptable situation to be beaten solely through financial disparity with absolutely zero recourse. Let Ireland pursue their self interest, fine. But let Wales do the same and don't query why this is a problem. The end of the Pro?? has been a long time coming and the sooner the Scots wake up to their own problems we might be able to either reform the Pro?? in to something reasonable or, better yet, kill it off as it has tried and failed year after year.

Reading all of this convinces me the problem with the Pro whatever is a Welsh issue, maybe then they should excuse themselves from the Pro whatever and join the Premiership.

As for developing South African rugby, WTF are you talking about?

SA has one of the best rugby development models in the world, their major downfall is a weak Rand.

As for poverty stricken, yes we are a third world country, but we have also a portion of our economy that is rather potent, there are major disparities in equality of income, with around 80% of the population struggling, yet the other 20% is as first world as they come.

It is clear to me it is the Welsh supporters that are disillusioned with the Pro 14, but if you ask me they are complaining with a white bread under the arm with their £6 million salary caps which South Africa won’t even get close to, yet the complaints towards the Irish “control” reeks of envy, every country must take responsibility for their own development, structures and finance. They also have free will to withdraw from tournaments or leagues if it doesn’t suit them.

Brendan wrote:Pro16 is the 3rd richest league in terms of squad spends.  It happily could afford players from the SR league and the Tasman cup pays even less. Japan may pay a couple of players alot but not the squad.

And yet it's a weaker league competition than it was a decade ago, with inferior broadcast coverage, and has made no real expansion in to any significant market like the USA. All of this has come at the cost of burning the roots of the Celtic League nations, which is why the coaching and grassroots talent in Scotland and Wales has slowed down or completely dried up during the period. Why have the people in charge not lost their jobs for such monumental incompetence? This is public sector levels of crap.

Old Man wrote:Reading all of this convinces me the problem with the Pro whatever is a Welsh issue, maybe then they should excuse themselves from the Pro whatever and join the Premiership.

As for developing South African rugby, WTF are you talking about?

SA has one of the best rugby development models in the world, their major downfall is a weak Rand.

As for poverty stricken, yes we are a third world country, but we have also a portion of our economy that is rather potent, there are major disparities in equality of income, with around 80% of the population struggling, yet the other 20% is as first world as they come.

It is clear to me it is the Welsh supporters that are disillusioned with the Pro 14, but if you ask me they are complaining with a white bread under the arm with their £6 million salary caps which South Africa won’t even get close to, yet the complaints towards the Irish “control” reeks of envy, every country must take responsibility for their own development, structures and finance. They also have free will to withdraw from tournaments or leagues if it doesn’t suit them.

You're being naive. Ireland are going to try to f you like they do everyone else. It's a tax haven, there's a very real possibility that SARU is being used as useful idiots by World Rugby (headquarters in Dublin) and the Pro?? (likewise, headquarters in Dublin).

Ireland's aim is to win a RWC despite clearly not being good enough to do so. If they manage to weaken SA, in a similar manner to the way they have weakened the two Celtic countries, both of which were better than them in the 90s (Wales still are at international level, much to the annoyance of the Irish), the IRFU is not going to turn that opportunity down.

Don't be naive. What you think is shared mutual interest in the present could quite clearly become a living nightmare in a few years.

Brendan wrote:Edinburgh Rugby from Wiki so might not be 100%
Atalifo - Fiji via Jersey
Schoeman - SA via Bulls
Venter - SA via Cheetahs
Williams - NZ via Otago
Ferreira - SA is Bulls
Kunavula - Fiji via Fiji 7s
Mata - Fiji via Fiji 7s
Savala - Aus via NRL
Jordan Venter is SA no details
Sau - Fiji via Perpignan
V D Walt - SA via Lions
D V D Merwe - SA via Montpellier
WP Nell - SA via Cheetahs

Two points.
1. You have to wonder what the Fijians think when they see Cockers game plan. I am sure the SA players love it.
2.  Of the 46 listed 13 are as above or 28% are cheap SH imports. Add in 3 of those are now Scottish Quailifed.  Would Edinburgh have topped their Conference with those players

I am sure they had some terrible signings but at Munster I would happily take DVDM, Mata, WP Nell and probably Schoeman who let's be honest are at key positions. Not sure who some of the others are.

Now make a list of the 'Scottish' players whose development in to professional rugby was paid for and took place in England. For both the Scottish national team and the two clubs.

y ddraig goch wrote:

Old Man wrote:Reading all of this convinces me the problem with the Pro whatever is a Welsh issue, maybe then they should excuse themselves from the Pro whatever and join the Premiership.

As for developing South African rugby, WTF are you talking about?

SA has one of the best rugby development models in the world, their major downfall is a weak Rand.

As for poverty stricken, yes we are a third world country, but we have also a portion of our economy that is rather potent, there are major disparities in equality of income, with around 80% of the population struggling, yet the other 20% is as first world as they come.

It is clear to me it is the Welsh supporters that are disillusioned with the Pro 14, but if you ask me they are complaining with a white bread under the arm with their £6 million salary caps which South Africa won’t even get close to, yet the complaints towards the Irish “control” reeks of envy, every country must take responsibility for their own development, structures and finance. They also have free will to withdraw from tournaments or leagues if it doesn’t suit them.

You're being naive. Ireland are going to try to f you like they do everyone else. It's a tax haven, there's a very real possibility that SARU is being used as useful idiots by World Rugby (headquarters in Dublin) and the Pro?? (likewise, headquarters in Dublin).

Ireland's aim is to win a RWC despite clearly not being good enough to do so. If they manage to weaken SA, in a similar manner to the way they have weakened the two Celtic countries, both of which were better than them in the 90s (Wales still are at international level, much to the annoyance of the Irish), the IRFU is not going to turn that opportunity down.

Don't be naive. What you think is shared mutual interest in the present could quite clearly become a living nightmare in a few years.

Based on your obviously biased opinion against the Irish, I am going to ignore you calling me naive.

I would like to know how they will weaken us in your opinion.

y ddraig goch wrote:

Old Man wrote:Reading all of this convinces me the problem with the Pro whatever is a Welsh issue, maybe then they should excuse themselves from the Pro whatever and join the Premiership.

As for developing South African rugby, WTF are you talking about?

SA has one of the best rugby development models in the world, their major downfall is a weak Rand.

As for poverty stricken, yes we are a third world country, but we have also a portion of our economy that is rather potent, there are major disparities in equality of income, with around 80% of the population struggling, yet the other 20% is as first world as they come.

It is clear to me it is the Welsh supporters that are disillusioned with the Pro 14, but if you ask me they are complaining with a white bread under the arm with their £6 million salary caps which South Africa won’t even get close to, yet the complaints towards the Irish “control” reeks of envy, every country must take responsibility for their own development, structures and finance. They also have free will to withdraw from tournaments or leagues if it doesn’t suit them.

You're being naive. Ireland are going to try to f you like they do everyone else. It's a tax haven, there's a very real possibility that SARU is being used as useful idiots by World Rugby (headquarters in Dublin) and the Pro?? (likewise, headquarters in Dublin).

Ireland's aim is to win a RWC despite clearly not being good enough to do so. If they manage to weaken SA, in a similar manner to the way they have weakened the two Celtic countries, both of which were better than them in the 90s (Wales still are at international level, much to the annoyance of the Irish), the IRFU is not going to turn that opportunity down.

Don't be naive. What you think is shared mutual interest in the present could quite clearly become a living nightmare in a few years.

If Ireland's aim was to win the world cup they wouldn't be offering central contracts to players in their mid 30s. I used to think it was too but the 6 nations is the only thing that matters as it brings in far more revenue which basically funds the professional game. There is no way you could look at any of Andy Farrells team selections and say they are building for a world cup.

I had a good laugh before the last world cup. As Wales were up in the Swiss alps training at altitude ireland's method of preparing for the Japanese climate was to train wearing bin bags.

You're being naive. Ireland are going to try to f you like they do everyone else. It's a tax haven, there's a very real possibility that SARU is being used as useful idiots by World Rugby (headquarters in Dublin) and the Pro?? (likewise, headquarters in Dublin).

Ireland's aim is to win a RWC despite clearly not being good enough to do so. If they manage to weaken SA, in a similar manner to the way they have weakened the two Celtic countries, both of which were better than them in the 90s (Wales still are at international level, much to the annoyance of the Irish), the IRFU is not going to turn that opportunity down.

Don't be naive. What you think is shared mutual interest in the present could quite clearly become a living nightmare in a few years.

I've read some utter bilge on here over the years but this particular, deluded and twisted view of things takes the top prize for the most ridiculous, laughable post I've read. Isn't it just as well that tin foil hats are cheap and easy to make.

If you look at player numbers and Market Value I would argue that the strenght of each nation by terms of worth to the league goes

1 - SA
2 - Ireland
3 - Italy
4 - Wales
5 - Scotland

This talk of Italy and South Africa bring nothing to the league is complete rubbish. Italy and SA both have bigger economies and also bigger playing numbers. At want point does the size of the rugby population in Italy be seen for what it is.

Brendan wrote:If you look at player numbers and Market Value I would argue that the strenght of each nation by terms of worth to the league goes

1 - SA
2 - Ireland
3 - Italy
4 - Wales
5 - Scotland

This talk of Italy and South Africa bring nothing to the league is complete rubbish.  Italy and SA both have bigger economies and also bigger playing numbers.  At want point does the size of the rugby population in Italy be seen for what it is.

It doesn't matter how big your economy or population is if nobody is attending or watching on TV. Unfortunately Italy hasn't brought anything to the league since their entry fee was scrapped.

Blinking heck

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Brendan wrote:If you look at player numbers and Market Value I would argue that the strenght of each nation by terms of worth to the league goes

1 - SA
2 - Ireland
3 - Italy
4 - Wales
5 - Scotland

This talk of Italy and South Africa bring nothing to the league is complete rubbish.  Italy and SA both have bigger economies and also bigger playing numbers.  At want point does the size of the rugby population in Italy be seen for what it is.

It doesn't matter how big your economy or population is if nobody is attending or watching on TV. Unfortunately Italy hasn't brought anything to the league since their entry fee was scrapped.

People still think of Italy having very few playing numbers.  They have more than Wales and nearly as many as Ireland.  If they have more registered players and per capita earn more than Wales surely that makes them more valuable.  They are able to run a 12 team semi-pro league to a standard higher than the three Celtic Nations.  If people look under the hood of Italian Rugby they would see alot more than just basing it on the men's team.

Playing Numbers in Italy have increased by 400% since joining the 6Ns in 2000.  It is hard to say how we get any more from Wales than they are already giving.  Rugby is the common man's game in Wales which makes it very popular but doesn't provide it with the income or private school structure that Ireland and England have because it is more of an upper class game.  Also because it is the common man's game like NZ there isn't much room for growth to keep up with the other countries.

Italy could easily add another 20k players. It is hard to see Wales keep the ones they have.

Scotland similarly are improving things and are quietly building their empire.  With Wales having the smallest population, smallest economy, least room for growth and struggling to run 4 professional teams I would place them below Italy in terms of value to the league as it's about 10+ years not 1 year.

What makes a nation valuable to the league is how many in person spectators show up to games, how many watch on tv/ the tv rights deal and what kind of sponsorships that leads to.

Player numbers while a sign that rugby is getting more popular in Italy means very little to the league when it is not converted into higher tv deal/attendances which it hasn't so far.

Not to say it won't, out of all the countries Italy has the biggest potential for growth but potential is just that until it is realised. So for now at least Italy is less valuable to the league

When Super Rugby was still popular in SA the spectator numbers were good.

Stormers regularly had more than 30 000
Sharks Bulls and Lions averaged 20 000 +

Old Man wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:

Old Man wrote:Reading all of this convinces me the problem with the Pro whatever is a Welsh issue, maybe then they should excuse themselves from the Pro whatever and join the Premiership.

As for developing South African rugby, WTF are you talking about?

SA has one of the best rugby development models in the world, their major downfall is a weak Rand.

As for poverty stricken, yes we are a third world country, but we have also a portion of our economy that is rather potent, there are major disparities in equality of income, with around 80% of the population struggling, yet the other 20% is as first world as they come.

It is clear to me it is the Welsh supporters that are disillusioned with the Pro 14, but if you ask me they are complaining with a white bread under the arm with their £6 million salary caps which South Africa won’t even get close to, yet the complaints towards the Irish “control” reeks of envy, every country must take responsibility for their own development, structures and finance. They also have free will to withdraw from tournaments or leagues if it doesn’t suit them.

You're being naive. Ireland are going to try to f you like they do everyone else. It's a tax haven, there's a very real possibility that SARU is being used as useful idiots by World Rugby (headquarters in Dublin) and the Pro?? (likewise, headquarters in Dublin).

Ireland's aim is to win a RWC despite clearly not being good enough to do so. If they manage to weaken SA, in a similar manner to the way they have weakened the two Celtic countries, both of which were better than them in the 90s (Wales still are at international level, much to the annoyance of the Irish), the IRFU is not going to turn that opportunity down.

Don't be naive. What you think is shared mutual interest in the present could quite clearly become a living nightmare in a few years.

Based on your obviously biased opinion against the Irish, I am going to ignore you calling me naive.

I would like to know how they will weaken us in your opinion.

In all honesty I thought I was being polite using the word I did. You're passing judgement on a competition you don't know very much about and you've come to the conclusion that it's all Wales' fault because they're the ones who are claiming they've had the roughest end of the deal. We get that enough from the Irish without other joining in. It's a bit like dismissing the ex boyfriend who gives you a warning as he's heading out. You might be right, your new flame might in fact be a dream and it's the ex who has it wrong. You'll just have to find out for yourself. A lot might depend on perspective as well and someone's expectations in a relationship. Given the state of Super Rugby and South African domestic rugby - at least in finances and stability, certainly not in talent - you're obviously coming in with a low bar.

You might see it as bias, I see it as realism. I don't blame the Irish for pursuing their self interest, which is what they've done. It's not bias in the slightest, it's annoyance at the shortsighted suffocation of what started out as an imperfect marriage of convenience to quickly address the needs of professional rugby, to something that has become an artificial support system for Irish rugby to the detriment of the rugby structures of Scotland and Wales. This didn't have to happen. It has been a continual series of business decisions that has led to this point. I resent the idea that Wales just have to smile and nod along, or that the Irish are not almost solely responsible for the failure of the Pro?? project - which has delivered them a lot of success in the process - due to their own refusal to move towards a B&I league (for geopolitical and financially beneficial reasons for the corporates).

If you think this is bias, then I assume you accuse every Irish person who suggests the league is fine is likewise 'biased'?

"I would like to know how they will weaken us in your opinion."

The league is dead. I'm going to say it again and again until it starts to get through. It is not a competition that is conducive to growth in rugby. It is like a body brace for a corpse. It might look like it's stable but it expired a long time ago.

What this means is the competition is diabolically poor and has become progressively worse since 2013. Like the Monty Python sketch, it is an ex-league. It has ceased to function in the way it was designed and has instead become a joke that no-one cares about. How can you care about a competition where you don't play all the teams equally? You can't. If you want the full list of everything wrong with the competition you'll find it elsewhere. It's a vast list, from referees to TV coverage and future viability.

The main benefit of the Pro?? in its current form is that it allows the substandard comp with no true jeopardy in it gives the best players rest time in between internationals and European games. That's it, that's the pay off for the Pro?? being so bad. I can't see how this is going to benefit South Africa. You have a deep stock of talent. Resting and rotating your best players for test periods isn't going to be a major help in the same way it is for Ireland or Wales, where the depth of test quality talent barely goes beyond 30 players. Instead, the low quality of rugby in the league is more likely to end up hurting you. Super Rugby forced South Africa to engage with the more expansive Antipodean style of rugby and it clearly worked well for them as they've won 2 RWCs in the professional era, which is as many as any other nation. You might think it's counter productive considering their WC wins arrived by playing pragmatic, box kick and chase rugby, but that's the point: the Boks learnt how to play against the All Blacks through the Tri Nations and Super Rugby alike, learning to face their test players and the style of rugby that NZ, in its puritanical approach to the game, played across the board. Even in 2015, the scratch and ageing Boks only lost by 2 points to the ABs team that was one of the best in history. You cannot put a price on the experience of playing against the best in the sport. The Pro?? is not the best. Your test players will have lost all access to the benefits of Super Rugby and now might only get to play the ABs test players when they play the ABs, which is what, 1-2 times a year on the basis of injury and rotation? Some of your best players might go a full season without exposure to the ABs - but don't worry, you're playing Connacht and Edinburgh. That's near enough the same as playing the Crusaders several times a year...right?

At this point you're faced with a few options. One of those is Europe, where SARU might have been bribed to join the Pro?? on the basis that they get fair access to the European Cup - which is insane, and corrupt, but let's just ignore that for a moment. Europe still isn't Super Rugby. It's fun to watch and exciting in the latter stages but it's not the ABs. Your test stars will be getting more practice of the structured, often risk averse rugby that dominates the NH. In all honesty, SA don't need that. They're already the best pack-oriented team in the world. They play the best 9 or 10 man rugby, much to the jealousy of the Irish. What you need is exposure to talent and, as good as the French and English leagues can be, they're still not the pinnacle of the sport. SA are handing in access to the pinnacle of the game. That's a major issue and if you're banking on Europe you might be bitterly disappointed when it comes to Rugby Championship time and your players look out of their depth up against the ABs. Maybe the plan is to leave and join the 6Ns (again, also insane and corrupt, but let's say it's possible). You'll learn the harsh lesson in the RWC.

What option do you have to address this problem, of not spreading your test players too thinly in the NH competitions that end up producing inferior preparation for the Boks to challenge at the top end of the sport? They take the Welsh and Scottish option: they let their test players leave the clubs. Which, in fairness, has already happened of course. But what if it keeps happening? What if the SA teams keep losing player after player to the English and French leagues when it become clear that SARU isn't getting enough money from the tinpot Pro?? You might end up with your teams turning in to another Cheetahs, where they show promise but can't even compete in the Pro?? as they keep losing all their best players due to the wages on offer overseas. There's nothing really keeping these players in SA, they're not in a 'true' South African competition and there's very little difference playing for Sale or Saracens against the English, than there is playing for the Kings in the Celtic League (other than the standard of course). Maybe there's enough talent in South Africa that you can still compete in Europe and/or the Pro?? even if/when you lose lots of players. Maybe, I don't know. Your fans won't appreciate losing in such a mickey mouse competition though. If they didn't tune in and turn out for Super Rugby they won't for the Pro?? if they lose to the boring, boring rugby that Munster and Leinster produce even when winning.

So now what? You're stick in the middle between having no money in Super Rugby, but a great standard of rugby, and having solid Super Rugby franchises that could at least play in a meaningful African competition that the fans would buy in to (Curry Cup) even if they money isn't there. You're not stuck in the cycle of suffocation with no obvious way out. The NH model is entirely different to the SH one. The SH teams are mostly meritocratic and reward good club form and get their players to replicate their club game on the international stage. The NH teams don't. They put huge money in to scouring the SH for playing and coaching talent. They then develop gameplans to keep them competitive with the SH teams and, particularly in Ireland and Wales, treat their national teams as almost a separate, union-run superclub. We call it 'Team Wales' for partly that reason as it's the 'fifth region' in a way. In Wales, that has meant putting a lot of money in to the head coach - Gatland for a long time, now Pivac, which has worked fairly well so far - and hope that the players can make the leap up from the Pro??. Ireland did a similar thing with Schmidt creating a gameplan for the Irish national team that had mixed success as well. The Boks would have to change their set up to imitate this and effectively take the national team back 'in house', as happened prior to the RWC 2019, and develop a gameplan almost entirely separated from your club game. We've got used to this kind of anti-meritocratic approach. I'm not sure how well it will go down in South Africa but they way I see it, it's the only way to avoid the stagnation that will engulf you as a result of playing in a substandard, third rate competition. Europe only really gets interesting in the knockout rounds as well: three games at max, spread out over several months. It's not Super Rugby, it's not going to develop players that can win RWCs in the way Super Rugby has.

This is where the Irish come in. It doesn't have to be nefarious but they're not going to do a single thing to help you when it becomes clear your participation is leading to negative consequences to your country's rugby. You signed up, you took the money, you suffer the consequences. More than that, however, I can see the Irish pilfering South African coaching and playing talent. Not en masse but just enough, as they have done for years, to weaken the Boks for their own gain. There might be a few more CJ Stander's turning out in a different green at test level as a result of this. Maybe you back your grassroots and school system to deal with this? It would make sense, the South Africans have the best system outside NZ. But those small cuts will all add up. Players and coaches will follow the money but only to a point. They will also want South Africa to win games of rugby and win RWCs. At some point you will have to reckon with what really matters. Do you actually care about winning the Pro?? and playing in Europe? Or would you rather see the development system of SA protected and for the Boks to be as good as they can be? You're getting in to bed with a country that is a tax haven. You might not be aware of this, for some reason the Irish try to pretend they're not but their corporate climate is explicitly pro-business as a result of a longstanding relationship with the USA and its banking system: many of which are or were Irish owned and are/were receptive to Irish independence on the basis of breaking up the British Empire and its assets, in order to make the USA the global superpower in its place. When I say you're being naive I mean it: South Africa had their own reckoning with global finance and without going in to the politics and rights and wrongs of that, both at the time and subsequently, the league is now being run for and by one nation above the others. Your interests might be aligned at the moment as you both desperately need each other for the benefit of shared revenue but give it a few years and, as I say, you might not think it was such a good deal after all.

The only reason South Africa is in the Pro?? is because it is desperate. You were facing what looked like an existential crisis, with players fleeing up to the NH, the national team had become a joke considering the high standards SA have set (they are by rights the second best team in the world, and by some distance, so anything less than that is either a temporary blip or a major problem). Your Super Rugby teams had become non-competitive with the Kiwis as a result. So what option did you have? I can understand wanting to put a positive spin on things but you have jumped out of the frying pan and in to the fire and you might not even realise it given how bad South African rugby has been in the last 8 years or so. You might not be able to identify just how bad the Pro?? is for you.

Put it this way: imagine if the South Africans, on the basis of having more money than the other SANZAR teams, have leveraged their position in order to weaken Super Rugby instead of accept that it had come to and end. Imagine if SA weren't the ones losing players to Europe but it was the other two teams instead. Imagine if the South Africans dominated and won the league on a regular basis, to the point where, on an off year, the Kings ended up winning Super Rugby. That's the situation the Pro?? reached when Connacht won it. You might think 'well, it's the Kiwis and Australians who are the problem, not us. If they want to win then they should get on our level'. This might be true but if the Kiwis were still winning RWCs and Rugby Champs - more often than the Boks were - you might be forced to reckon with the fact that maybe it's not the others who are the problem, but it's the monopolisation of Super Rugby by SARU that has led to its demise. That's the situation the Pro?? is in. Wales has won more Six Nations and Grand Slams than Ireland since the birth of the Celtic League. They have performed significantly better in RWCs. I would also put money on them selecting fewer foreign players than Ireland during this period as well but either way, despite the regions being financially dominated in the Pro??, the national team results suggest a different picture of value. When I say I think you're being naive it's for a reason I'm not just saying it. I don't think you know the state of European rugby well other than through its performances with/against the South African teams. On top of that, I don't think you've reckoned with the potential outcome for SA as a result of joining the Pro??, which is a dead league with zero room for sustainable, reliable growth.

The mask has well and truly slipped

Old Man wrote:When Super Rugby was still popular in SA the spectator numbers were good.

Stormers regularly had more than 30 000
Sharks Bulls and Lions averaged 20 000 +

True, but SA used to always complain about earnings when they were in Super Rugby, no? Something about bringing in more than Aus and NZ, but all teams getting an equal share.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:When Super Rugby was still popular in SA the spectator numbers were good.

Stormers regularly had more than 30 000
Sharks Bulls and Lions averaged 20 000 +

True, but SA used to always complain about earnings when they were in Super Rugby, no? Something about bringing in more than Aus and NZ, but all teams getting an equal share.

Yes that used to be the case, but that didn’t include gate takings.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:

Old Man wrote:Reading all of this convinces me the problem with the Pro whatever is a Welsh issue, maybe then they should excuse themselves from the Pro whatever and join the Premiership.

As for developing South African rugby, WTF are you talking about?

SA has one of the best rugby development models in the world, their major downfall is a weak Rand.

As for poverty stricken, yes we are a third world country, but we have also a portion of our economy that is rather potent, there are major disparities in equality of income, with around 80% of the population struggling, yet the other 20% is as first world as they come.

It is clear to me it is the Welsh supporters that are disillusioned with the Pro 14, but if you ask me they are complaining with a white bread under the arm with their £6 million salary caps which South Africa won’t even get close to, yet the complaints towards the Irish “control” reeks of envy, every country must take responsibility for their own development, structures and finance. They also have free will to withdraw from tournaments or leagues if it doesn’t suit them.

You're being naive. Ireland are going to try to f you like they do everyone else. It's a tax haven, there's a very real possibility that SARU is being used as useful idiots by World Rugby (headquarters in Dublin) and the Pro?? (likewise, headquarters in Dublin).

Ireland's aim is to win a RWC despite clearly not being good enough to do so. If they manage to weaken SA, in a similar manner to the way they have weakened the two Celtic countries, both of which were better than them in the 90s (Wales still are at international level, much to the annoyance of the Irish), the IRFU is not going to turn that opportunity down.

Don't be naive. What you think is shared mutual interest in the present could quite clearly become a living nightmare in a few years.

If Ireland's aim was to win the world cup they wouldn't be offering central contracts to players in their mid 30s. I used to think it was too but the 6 nations is the only thing that matters as it brings in far more revenue which basically funds the professional game. There is no way you could look at any of Andy Farrells team selections and say they are building for a world cup.

Obviously winning a RWC is an aim, however unlikely it may be. Even the SRU made a Scottish RWC win a stated aim! The more general aim is to improve the performance and results of Irish rugby and unfortunately one of the best ways to do this is by weakening the opposition. That's exactly what has happened in the last 20 years, the NH has used its financial power to weaken the SH. You can justify this in several ways, mainly on the basis that it's not good for the European teams that have the most customers to be losing by 60, 70, 80 points. But either way, if you want to bridge the gap, you use your finances to improve your national team - even if it's no longer your national team anymore. Ireland and Wales have done it for years with their head coaches and players. Scotland have basically given up any pretence of doing otherwise and in hindsight it makes the decision to sack Cotter for Townsend look like it was made because the Scots were planning on flooding their professional teams with foreigners, so they made a token 'native hire' to limit any negative perception (although as far as I can tell there aren't many Scots who care about this total watering down of their rugby country).

Take the bigger picture. Irish rugby has enjoyed unnatural success (and weath) as a result of their participation in the Pro??. They're not going to give up the league in any hurry on that basis. The problem is when they start complaining about the league not being good enough - no sheet. If they can continue the Boks' decline, which has happened over the last decade due to the NH hiring their talent and the SH not having a reasonable answer, while at the same time using SARU's desperation to have SA'n rugby prop up the Pro?? that has given Ireland the unnatural success it has enjoyed over the last 15 years, why would they not grab the opportunity with both hands? Which is precisely what has happened.

Pete330v2 wrote:You're being naive. Ireland are going to try to f you like they do everyone else. It's a tax haven, there's a very real possibility that SARU is being used as useful idiots by World Rugby (headquarters in Dublin) and the Pro?? (likewise, headquarters in Dublin).

Ireland's aim is to win a RWC despite clearly not being good enough to do so. If they manage to weaken SA, in a similar manner to the way they have weakened the two Celtic countries, both of which were better than them in the 90s (Wales still are at international level, much to the annoyance of the Irish), the IRFU is not going to turn that opportunity down.

Don't be naive. What you think is shared mutual interest in the present could quite clearly become a living nightmare in a few years.

I've read some utter bilge on here over the years but this particular, deluded and twisted view of things takes the top prize for the most ridiculous, laughable post I've read. Isn't it just as well that tin foil hats are cheap and easy to make.

Yes, nothing ever happens. Countries don't ruthlessly pursue their own interests despite operating within a union. Everything is a conspiracy if it's not on the 10 o clock news.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Brendan wrote:If you look at player numbers and Market Value I would argue that the strenght of each nation by terms of worth to the league goes

1 - SA
2 - Ireland
3 - Italy
4 - Wales
5 - Scotland

This talk of Italy and South Africa bring nothing to the league is complete rubbish.  Italy and SA both have bigger economies and also bigger playing numbers.  At want point does the size of the rugby population in Italy be seen for what it is.

It doesn't matter how big your economy or population is if nobody is attending or watching on TV. Unfortunately Italy hasn't brought anything to the league since their entry fee was scrapped.

Great point. That was the hope behind the Pro12's desperation to bring the USA in to the picture but they've settled for the South Africans as the potential useful idiots instead.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/02/pro12-north-america-us-pro-rugby-league

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/may/18/pro-12-rugby-houston-us

It doesn't matter if you produce better players and have more success at international level, if you're competing against a tax haven where the corporate heart of rugby is based, you're not going to have a good time.

Brendan wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Brendan wrote:If you look at player numbers and Market Value I would argue that the strenght of each nation by terms of worth to the league goes

1 - SA
2 - Ireland
3 - Italy
4 - Wales
5 - Scotland

This talk of Italy and South Africa bring nothing to the league is complete rubbish.  Italy and SA both have bigger economies and also bigger playing numbers.  At want point does the size of the rugby population in Italy be seen for what it is.

It doesn't matter how big your economy or population is if nobody is attending or watching on TV. Unfortunately Italy hasn't brought anything to the league since their entry fee was scrapped.

People still think of Italy having very few playing numbers.  They have more than Wales and nearly as many as Ireland.  If they have more registered players and per capita earn more than Wales surely that makes them more valuable.  They are able to run a 12 team semi-pro league to a standard higher than the three Celtic Nations.  If people look under the hood of Italian Rugby they would see alot more than just basing it on the men's team.

Playing Numbers in Italy have increased by 400% since joining the 6Ns in 2000.  It is hard to say how we get any more from Wales than they are already giving.  Rugby is the common man's game in Wales which makes it very popular but doesn't provide it with the income or private school structure that Ireland and England have because it is more of an upper class game.  Also because it is the common man's game like NZ there isn't much room for growth to keep up with the other countries.

Italy could easily add another 20k players. It is hard to see Wales keep the ones they have.

Scotland similarly are improving things and are quietly building their empire.  With Wales having the smallest population, smallest economy, least room for growth and struggling to run 4 professional teams I would place them below Italy in terms of value to the league as it's about 10+ years not 1 year.

Definitely. It's all Wales' fault. If you ignore the fact they're the most successful international team out of the Pro?? nations, they're actually the worst. New Zealand are also worse than the USA, who have the most value in world rugby.

y ddraig goch wrote:

Old Man wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:

Old Man wrote:Reading all of this convinces me the problem with the Pro whatever is a Welsh issue, maybe then they should excuse themselves from the Pro whatever and join the Premiership.

As for developing South African rugby, WTF are you talking about?

SA has one of the best rugby development models in the world, their major downfall is a weak Rand.

As for poverty stricken, yes we are a third world country, but we have also a portion of our economy that is rather potent, there are major disparities in equality of income, with around 80% of the population struggling, yet the other 20% is as first world as they come.

It is clear to me it is the Welsh supporters that are disillusioned with the Pro 14, but if you ask me they are complaining with a white bread under the arm with their £6 million salary caps which South Africa won’t even get close to, yet the complaints towards the Irish “control” reeks of envy, every country must take responsibility for their own development, structures and finance. They also have free will to withdraw from tournaments or leagues if it doesn’t suit them.

You're being naive. Ireland are going to try to f you like they do everyone else. It's a tax haven, there's a very real possibility that SARU is being used as useful idiots by World Rugby (headquarters in Dublin) and the Pro?? (likewise, headquarters in Dublin).

Ireland's aim is to win a RWC despite clearly not being good enough to do so. If they manage to weaken SA, in a similar manner to the way they have weakened the two Celtic countries, both of which were better than them in the 90s (Wales still are at international level, much to the annoyance of the Irish), the IRFU is not going to turn that opportunity down.

Don't be naive. What you think is shared mutual interest in the present could quite clearly become a living nightmare in a few years.

Based on your obviously biased opinion against the Irish, I am going to ignore you calling me naive.

I would like to know how they will weaken us in your opinion.

In all honesty I thought I was being polite using the word I did. You're passing judgement on a competition you don't know very much about and you've come to the conclusion that it's all Wales' fault because they're the ones who are claiming they've had the roughest end of the deal. We get that enough from the Irish without other joining in. It's a bit like dismissing the ex boyfriend who gives you a warning as he's heading out. You might be right, your new flame might in fact be a dream and it's the ex who has it wrong. You'll just have to find out for yourself. A lot might depend on perspective as well and someone's expectations in a relationship. Given the state of Super Rugby and South African domestic rugby - at least in finances and stability, certainly not in talent - you're obviously coming in with a low bar.

You might see it as bias, I see it as realism. I don't blame the Irish for pursuing their self interest, which is what they've done. It's not bias in the slightest, it's annoyance at the shortsighted suffocation of what started out as an imperfect marriage of convenience to quickly address the needs of professional rugby, to something that has become an artificial support system for Irish rugby to the detriment of the rugby structures of Scotland and Wales. This didn't have to happen. It has been a continual series of business decisions that has led to this point. I resent the idea that Wales just have to smile and nod along, or that the Irish are not almost solely responsible for the failure of the Pro?? project - which has delivered them a lot of success in the process - due to their own refusal to move towards a B&I league (for geopolitical and financially beneficial reasons for the corporates).

If you think this is bias, then I assume you accuse every Irish person who suggests the league is fine is likewise 'biased'?

"I would like to know how they will weaken us in your opinion."

The league is dead. I'm going to say it again and again until it starts to get through. It is not a competition that is conducive to growth in rugby. It is like a body brace for a corpse. It might look like it's stable but it expired a long time ago.

What this means is the competition is diabolically poor and has become progressively worse since 2013. Like the Monty Python sketch, it is an ex-league. It has ceased to function in the way it was designed and has instead become a joke that no-one cares about. How can you care about a competition where you don't play all the teams equally? You can't. If you want the full list of everything wrong with the competition you'll find it elsewhere. It's a vast list, from referees to TV coverage and future viability.

The main benefit of the Pro?? in its current form is that it allows the substandard comp with no true jeopardy in it gives the best players rest time in between internationals and European games. That's it, that's the pay off for the Pro?? being so bad. I can't see how this is going to benefit South Africa. You have a deep stock of talent. Resting and rotating your best players for test periods isn't going to be a major help in the same way it is for Ireland or Wales, where the depth of test quality talent barely goes beyond 30 players. Instead, the low quality of rugby in the league is more likely to end up hurting you. Super Rugby forced South Africa to engage with the more expansive Antipodean style of rugby and it clearly worked well for them as they've won 2 RWCs in the professional era, which is as many as any other nation. You might think it's counter productive considering their WC wins arrived by playing pragmatic, box kick and chase rugby, but that's the point: the Boks learnt how to play against the All Blacks through the Tri Nations and Super Rugby alike, learning to face their test players and the style of rugby that NZ, in its puritanical approach to the game, played across the board. Even in 2015, the scratch and ageing Boks only lost by 2 points to the ABs team that was one of the best in history. You cannot put a price on the experience of playing against the best in the sport. The Pro?? is not the best. Your test players will have lost all access to the benefits of Super Rugby and now might only get to play the ABs test players when they play the ABs, which is what, 1-2 times a year on the basis of injury and rotation? Some of your best players might go a full season without exposure to the ABs - but don't worry, you're playing Connacht and Edinburgh. That's near enough the same as playing the Crusaders several times a year...right?

At this point you're faced with a few options. One of those is Europe, where SARU might have been bribed to join the Pro?? on the basis that they get fair access to the European Cup - which is insane, and corrupt, but let's just ignore that for a moment. Europe still isn't Super Rugby. It's fun to watch and exciting in the latter stages but it's not the ABs. Your test stars will be getting more practice of the structured, often risk averse rugby that dominates the NH. In all honesty, SA don't need that. They're already the best pack-oriented team in the world. They play the best 9 or 10 man rugby, much to the jealousy of the Irish. What you need is exposure to talent and, as good as the French and English leagues can be, they're still not the pinnacle of the sport. SA are handing in access to the pinnacle of the game. That's a major issue and if you're banking on Europe you might be bitterly disappointed when it comes to Rugby Championship time and your players look out of their depth up against the ABs. Maybe the plan is to leave and join the 6Ns (again, also insane and corrupt, but let's say it's possible). You'll learn the harsh lesson in the RWC.

What option do you have to address this problem, of not spreading your test players too thinly in the NH competitions that end up producing inferior preparation for the Boks to challenge at the top end of the sport? They take the Welsh and Scottish option: they let their test players leave the clubs. Which, in fairness, has already happened of course. But what if it keeps happening? What if the SA teams keep losing player after player to the English and French leagues when it become clear that SARU isn't getting enough money from the tinpot Pro?? You might end up with your teams turning in to another Cheetahs, where they show promise but can't even compete in the Pro?? as they keep losing all their best players due to the wages on offer overseas. There's nothing really keeping these players in SA, they're not in a 'true' South African competition and there's very little difference playing for Sale or Saracens against the English, than there is playing for the Kings in the Celtic League (other than the standard of course). Maybe there's enough talent in South Africa that you can still compete in Europe and/or the Pro?? even if/when you lose lots of players. Maybe, I don't know. Your fans won't appreciate losing in such a mickey mouse competition though. If they didn't tune in and turn out for Super Rugby they won't for the Pro?? if they lose to the boring, boring rugby that Munster and Leinster produce even when winning.

So now what? You're stick in the middle between having no money in Super Rugby, but a great standard of rugby, and having solid Super Rugby franchises that could at least play in a meaningful African competition that the fans would buy in to (Curry Cup) even if they money isn't there. You're not stuck in the cycle of suffocation with no obvious way out. The NH model is entirely different to the SH one. The SH teams are mostly meritocratic and reward good club form and get their players to replicate their club game on the international stage. The NH teams don't. They put huge money in to scouring the SH for playing and coaching talent. They then develop gameplans to keep them competitive with the SH teams and, particularly in Ireland and Wales, treat their national teams as almost a separate, union-run superclub. We call it 'Team Wales' for partly that reason as it's the 'fifth region' in a way. In Wales, that has meant putting a lot of money in to the head coach - Gatland for a long time, now Pivac, which has worked fairly well so far - and hope that the players can make the leap up from the Pro??. Ireland did a similar thing with Schmidt creating a gameplan for the Irish national team that had mixed success as well. The Boks would have to change their set up to imitate this and effectively take the national team back 'in house', as happened prior to the RWC 2019, and develop a gameplan almost entirely separated from your club game. We've got used to this kind of anti-meritocratic approach. I'm not sure how well it will go down in South Africa but they way I see it, it's the only way to avoid the stagnation that will engulf you as a result of playing in a substandard, third rate competition. Europe only really gets interesting in the knockout rounds as well: three games at max, spread out over several months. It's not Super Rugby, it's not going to develop players that can win RWCs in the way Super Rugby has.

This is where the Irish come in. It doesn't have to be nefarious but they're not going to do a single thing to help you when it becomes clear your participation is leading to negative consequences to your country's rugby. You signed up, you took the money, you suffer the consequences. More than that, however, I can see the Irish pilfering South African coaching and playing talent. Not en masse but just enough, as they have done for years, to weaken the Boks for their own gain. There might be a few more CJ Stander's turning out in a different green at test level as a result of this. Maybe you back your grassroots and school system to deal with this? It would make sense, the South Africans have the best system outside NZ. But those small cuts will all add up. Players and coaches will follow the money but only to a point. They will also want South Africa to win games of rugby and win RWCs. At some point you will have to reckon with what really matters. Do you actually care about winning the Pro?? and playing in Europe? Or would you rather see the development system of SA protected and for the Boks to be as good as they can be? You're getting in to bed with a country that is a tax haven. You might not be aware of this, for some reason the Irish try to pretend they're not but their corporate climate is explicitly pro-business as a result of a longstanding relationship with the USA and its banking system: many of which are or were Irish owned and are/were receptive to Irish independence on the basis of breaking up the British Empire and its assets, in order to make the USA the global superpower in its place. When I say you're being naive I mean it: South Africa had their own reckoning with global finance and without going in to the politics and rights and wrongs of that, both at the time and subsequently, the league is now being run for and by one nation above the others. Your interests might be aligned at the moment as you both desperately need each other for the benefit of shared revenue but give it a few years and, as I say, you might not think it was such a good deal after all.

The only reason South Africa is in the Pro?? is because it is desperate. You were facing what looked like an existential crisis, with players fleeing up to the NH, the national team had become a joke considering the high standards SA have set (they are by rights the second best team in the world, and by some distance, so anything less than that is either a temporary blip or a major problem). Your Super Rugby teams had become non-competitive with the Kiwis as a result. So what option did you have? I can understand wanting to put a positive spin on things but you have jumped out of the frying pan and in to the fire and you might not even realise it given how bad South African rugby has been in the last 8 years or so. You might not be able to identify just how bad the Pro?? is for you.

Put it this way: imagine if the South Africans, on the basis of having more money than the other SANZAR teams, have leveraged their position in order to weaken Super Rugby instead of accept that it had come to and end. Imagine if SA weren't the ones losing players to Europe but it was the other two teams instead. Imagine if the South Africans dominated and won the league on a regular basis, to the point where, on an off year, the Kings ended up winning Super Rugby. That's the situation the Pro?? reached when Connacht won it. You might think 'well, it's the Kiwis and Australians who are the problem, not us. If they want to win then they should get on our level'. This might be true but if the Kiwis were still winning RWCs and Rugby Champs - more often than the Boks were - you might be forced to reckon with the fact that maybe it's not the others who are the problem, but it's the monopolisation of Super Rugby by SARU that has led to its demise. That's the situation the Pro?? is in. Wales has won more Six Nations and Grand Slams than Ireland since the birth of the Celtic League. They have performed significantly better in RWCs. I would also put money on them selecting fewer foreign players than Ireland during this period as well but either way, despite the regions being financially dominated in the Pro??, the national team results suggest a different picture of value. When I say I think you're being naive it's for a reason I'm not just saying it. I don't think you know the state of European rugby well other than through its performances with/against the South African teams. On top of that, I don't think you've reckoned with the potential outcome for SA as a result of joining the Pro??, which is a dead league with zero room for sustainable, reliable growth.

Wow, that is a mouth ful, I should send that to my attorney to break down in bite size chunks, easier for consumption.

You keep calling me naive, yet I have made no judgement on European rugby whatsoever.

The only conclusion I have come to at this point is that the Welsh have a major issue with the Pro 14.

As for some of what you have said, consider this.

SA didn’t decide to leave Super Rugby, SARU had a plan, maybe ambitious, but still a plan.

They granted Franchise licences to Pumas and Griquas, and the rumour/idea/hope was to have four teams in Europe and four teams in Super Rugby.

It never came to fruition for a number of reasons, timing, financial etc.

However, ARU and NZRU decided they don’t want SA in Super Rugby anymore, thus SARU had two choices, go it alone, or join Europe. There were no other options.

If they go it alone they stand to lose more players than ever before as the Currie Cup alone cannot sustain salaries remotely competitive with Europe or Japan.

So the only opening they have is Europe, whether the Pro14 is dead by your judgement or not is irrelevant at this stage as contracts have been signed and participation agreed, yes, even by the Welsh teams.

So that would suggest that after due diligence and planning, it is indeed SARU that you suggest is naive, because they are going full tilt at this.

I think you should set aside your judgements and negative attitude and see what the future brings, because it seems to me that the Welsh Rugby Union is not sharing your sentiment.

Also important to note, SA rugby due to various reasons have in fact been performing very poorly at test level with NZ in the last decade, the last time we had successive test wins against them was 2009.

You are also making your argument from the perspective that Nz rugby will continue to remain the dominant team in world rugby.

That may very well be the case, but they will continue to play test rugby against SA as to them it is as important to play us as it is for us to play them. The two contrasting styles benefit both teams.

That is it in a nutshell, stop assuming you know what I am thinking and therefor judging whether I am naive or not. You insisting the league is dead until it gets through to me is arrogant and condescending. Suggesting I am accusing anyone else of bias is BS, I am calling your unrelenting negative attitude towards how the Irish run their teams biased or if that doesn’t suit you, overly negative.

Perhaps you should have a discussion with the Welsh Rugby Union and take them on for whatever the shortcomings are that doesn’t allow them to stand up to the Irish Rugby Football Union.

Take the bigger picture. Irish rugby has enjoyed unnatural success (and weath) as a result of their participation in the Pro??. They're not going to give up the league in any hurry on that basis. The problem is when they start complaining about the league not being good enough - no sheet. If they can continue the Boks' decline, which has happened over the last decade due to the NH hiring their talent and the SH not having a reasonable answer, while at the same time using SARU's desperation to have SA'n rugby prop up the Pro?? that has given Ireland the unnatural success it has enjoyed over the last 15 years, why would they not grab the opportunity with both hands? Which is precisely what has happened.

I want some of what you are smoking. How on earth (you could use a number of expletives there if you so wish) does the IRFU continue our decline of rugby?

You are aware that of roughly 400 South African players playing across the world in other professional leagues, less than 5% of them might be playing in Ireland.

So if you want to credit Ireland with the master plan of continuing the decline of SA rugby, then you are suggesting the other 95% of South African players is of no consequence. Are you actually in agreement with yourself in that reasoning?

The pro?? is far from dead. Its the youngest of the 4 major world leagues and still finding its feet. You can look at things negatively or positively. I don't expect SA teams to suddenly get 30,000 fans watching because I think it will take time to grow on them but if you want to grow something you need to plant some seeds and give them time. The league isn't perfect but has been growing since the celtic league days.


The Irish bringing down the British empire by using irish American banks? That's a new one for me but you're entitled to your opinion.


I don't think Irish teams will raid SA for talent either. Keynan Knox is the only young SA talent in the country and I'm sure he was signed by Rassie when he was with Munster. We have a decent batch of young players coming through.

Old Man wrote:

You keep calling me naive, yet I have made no judgement on European rugby whatsoever.

Fair enough but I was responding to this: "Reading all of this convinces me the problem with the Pro whatever is a Welsh issue, maybe then they should excuse themselves from the Pro whatever and join the Premiership."

The problem with the Pro?? isn't a Welsh issue. It hurts the Scots and Italians as well. Both teams fill their international side with foreigners as the league doesn't produce the finances nor the competition that would help to produce a good stock of homegrown players that are able to compete on the biggest stage. Both unions are putting their money in to the development systems in the hope that it will pay off in 10 years time but it's a risk as there's no guarantee the pathways will produce the desired standard of player without a good quality club competition, like the Premiership, that allows players to raise their game and improve simply through the very natural and desirable consequence of playing meaningful, competitive rugby with and against good players.

Unfortunately the WRU made a shortsighted decision in the past and has failed to leverage any of its power for the benefit of its clubs or regions. It's a tough decision to take but the WRU has basically put nearly all of its eggs in the international basket, like the stadium and revenue from European teams allowing games to be played in Wales when they host the RWC. They've been content to allow the the suffocation of Welsh rugby to occur, some of it masked by Gatland's era and the stock of quality players who came through in the last 15 years (largely a result of the economic success of the post-Soviet 1990s that led to opportunities for children and a spread of wealth in to postindustrial areas of the UK). The systems have started to dry up in the last 5 years though and the talent pathway is slowing down massively, with the best players now finishing their development in England. If Pivac's 6Ns win was a flash in the pan, and the national team starts to decline, the Welsh public are going to be living with the WRU as they've dug up the roots of the game in Wales and have allowed the rest of it to rot.

I would advocate leaving and destroying the Pro?? if it's feasible to do so. There's no need for it to continue for any sensible reason other than it exists and it would require some tough negotiating to produce something better. Now that CVC has bought it, they'll probably just keep it alive for the sake of revenue, and as Ireland have the money - but not the talent relative to Wales, let alone South Africa and the SH - that means doing what benefits the Irish. Forget the fact that Welsh rugby is dying while Exeter prove what can happen in a rugby mad region of the UK when it is allowed to flourish in a competition where everyone plays by the same rules and within the same financial framework, the WRU simply doesn't have enough leverage to convince the English that there is benefit to creating a B&I league. It has to get to the point of disaster for this sort of thing to change. There are only two ways that happens: the clubs cannot compete financially with another region, most likely to be France. Or the national team starts to decline, as has happened in France for the last 10 years.

The Irish Provinces were having success before the Celtic League started with Ulster winning the Heineken Cup and Munster losing in the final.  They brought that into the league.  The WRU then forced the Regions to be created (not the IRFU) to compete with the Provinces.  They did the first year and Ospreys did for about 10 years.

I don't know why you keep saying the league is dead.  Certain posters have been saying that for 10 years yet the league goes from strenght to strenght.

The SA teams will not be weakened by the league.  Without it they keep even less players.  5 of the 5  unions are happy with it.  Fans from 4 of the 5 Nations are happy with it and even 75% of the Welsh fans are happy with it. Most Welsh fans frustrations from the league either are to do with the Regions existing or the WRU. Neither are the league nor the other 4 Unions fault.

As we have seen with the Rainbow Cup it was all doom and gloom but as it has gone on more and more are loving it.

Old Man understands the league perfectly as he lives in the real world and understand that better teams don't mean conspires. I also hope he understands most Welsh fan are not reflective of certain views on here.

Old Man wrote: Take the bigger picture. Irish rugby has enjoyed unnatural success (and weath) as a result of their participation in the Pro??. They're not going to give up the league in any hurry on that basis. The problem is when they start complaining about the league not being good enough - no sheet. If they can continue the Boks' decline, which has happened over the last decade due to the NH hiring their talent and the SH not having a reasonable answer, while at the same time using SARU's desperation to have SA'n rugby prop up the Pro?? that has given Ireland the unnatural success it has enjoyed over the last 15 years, why would they not grab the opportunity with both hands? Which is precisely what has happened.

I want some of what you are smoking. How on earth (you could use a number of expletives there if you so wish) does the IRFU continue our decline of rugby?

You are aware that of roughly 400 South African players playing across the world in other professional leagues, less than 5% of them might be playing in Ireland.

So if you want to credit Ireland with the master plan of continuing the decline of SA rugby, then you are suggesting the other 95% of South African players is of no consequence. Are you actually in agreement with yourself in that reasoning?

I think I said? To keep it short:

1. Tying you in to a substandard competition for their own monetary gain that doesn't prepare your best players for the pinnacle of the sport (i.e. beating the ABs).

2. Making you part of a competition with limited room for growth, with countries that are either tax havens or relatively poor parts of the UK with a limited audience, while keeping you away from the large and wealthy UK market.

3. Utilising SA's presence in a European compettion to hire your playing and coaching talent as a result of the networks that are developed from being part of the same union, strengthening Irish rugby and weakening SA rugby (unless SA can retain or return talent to compensate).

Forget the 'masterplan' nonsense, you missed the part about small cuts adding up. South Africa barely managed to cope wth the last 6-7 years of talent loss to the NH. It took a select number of factors, including the weakest NZ team we'd seen since before 2007, to win a RWC that might have ended up papering over the cracks. We'll get something of an insight in to the truth of that this summer. But we're talking about fine margins at this level of business and sport. Ireland and Wales suffer massively when the lose 2-3 of their best players. Do you really think SA losing 2-3 more of their good players, on top of those already playing overseas and for other countries, won't make a difference? If you don't, I want what you're smoking haha.

AS I said, we can hardly lose more players than we are currently losing.

In 2007 I thought that would be the last RWC win we would ever have, purely because of the situation in SA, economically struggling, politics, crime, all reasons why 90% of our players want to play overseas.

Yet as Rassie has shown, if our administrators and coaches remove their blinkers we have boatloads of untapped talent in this country, transformation is possible and still provides us with strong enough Springboks to win the RWC.

I watched a lot of Varsity Cup rugby in the past two months and the talent across all teams, white or non white is astounding.

There are still very large parts of SA untapped, we can continue to produce talent, there is no doubt in my mind.

profitius wrote:The pro??  is far from dead. Its the youngest of the 4 major world leagues and still finding its feet. You can look at things negatively or positively. I don't expect SA teams to suddenly get 30,000 fans watching because I think it will take time to grow on them but if you want to grow something you need to plant some seeds and give them time. The league isn't perfect but has been growing since the celtic league days.


The Irish bringing down the British empire by using irish American banks? That's a new one for me but you're entitled to your opinion.


I don't think Irish teams will raid SA for talent either. Keynan Knox is the only young SA talent in the country and I'm sure he was signed by Rassie when he was with Munster. We have a decent batch of young players coming through.

I expect the SA teams to be getting at least equal with the three Irish. Because Cheetahs got low crowds it was easy for the SARU to swap them out. If they had been getting 10-15k I think a place would have been found for them. With no Super Rugby this is the only game in town so the fans will support it. With the Cheetahs it was seen as it's not Super Rugby so I am not going. The big 4 all are in bigger cities with much larger fan bases.

Brendan wrote:

profitius wrote:The pro??  is far from dead. Its the youngest of the 4 major world leagues and still finding its feet. You can look at things negatively or positively. I don't expect SA teams to suddenly get 30,000 fans watching because I think it will take time to grow on them but if you want to grow something you need to plant some seeds and give them time. The league isn't perfect but has been growing since the celtic league days.


The Irish bringing down the British empire by using irish American banks? That's a new one for me but you're entitled to your opinion.


I don't think Irish teams will raid SA for talent either. Keynan Knox is the only young SA talent in the country and I'm sure he was signed by Rassie when he was with Munster. We have a decent batch of young players coming through.

I expect the SA teams to be getting at least equal with the three Irish.  Because Cheetahs got low crowds it was easy for the SARU to swap them out.  If they had been getting 10-15k I think a place would have been found for them.  With no Super Rugby this is the only game in town so the fans will support it.  With the Cheetahs it was seen as it's not Super Rugby so I am not going.  The big 4 all are in bigger cities with much larger fan bases.

You're in for a shock when you see the crowds for the big 4 when they aren't playing each other unfortunately. The Bulls got 4k when they played the sunwolves and 7k against the Jaguares in 2019 for example.

y ddraig goch wrote:

Old Man wrote: Take the bigger picture. Irish rugby has enjoyed unnatural success (and weath) as a result of their participation in the Pro??. They're not going to give up the league in any hurry on that basis. The problem is when they start complaining about the league not being good enough - no sheet. If they can continue the Boks' decline, which has happened over the last decade due to the NH hiring their talent and the SH not having a reasonable answer, while at the same time using SARU's desperation to have SA'n rugby prop up the Pro?? that has given Ireland the unnatural success it has enjoyed over the last 15 years, why would they not grab the opportunity with both hands? Which is precisely what has happened.

I want some of what you are smoking. How on earth (you could use a number of expletives there if you so wish) does the IRFU continue our decline of rugby?

You are aware that of roughly 400 South African players playing across the world in other professional leagues, less than 5% of them might be playing in Ireland.

So if you want to credit Ireland with the master plan of continuing the decline of SA rugby, then you are suggesting the other 95% of South African players is of no consequence. Are you actually in agreement with yourself in that reasoning?

I think I said? To keep it short:

1. Tying you in to a substandard competition for their own monetary gain that doesn't prepare your best players for the pinnacle of the sport (i.e. beating the ABs).

2. Making you part of a competition with limited room for growth, with countries that are either tax havens or relatively poor parts of the UK with a limited audience, while keeping you away from the large and wealthy UK market.

3. Utilising SA's presence in a European compettion to hire your playing and coaching talent as a result of the networks that are developed from being part of the same union, strengthening Irish rugby and weakening SA rugby (unless SA can retain or return talent to compensate).

Forget the 'masterplan' nonsense, you missed the part about small cuts adding up. South Africa barely managed to cope wth the last 6-7 years of talent loss to the NH. It took a select number of factors, including the weakest NZ team we'd seen since before 2007, to win a RWC that might have ended up papering over the cracks. We'll get something of an insight in to the truth of that this summer. But we're talking about fine margins at this level of business and sport. Ireland and Wales suffer massively when the lose 2-3 of their best players. Do you really think SA losing 2-3 more of their good players, on top of those already playing overseas and for other countries, won't make a difference? If you don't, I want what you're smoking haha.

So did Ireland hamstring SA when they let Rassie leave Munster early to coach SA, having let him see the talent in Europe and allow him to take all that knowledge he had got at Munster and do the same plan but with better players.  Rassie will have learn alot playing against NH defences which helped beat Wales and England the way Australia and New Zealand could not.

I am sure playing teams like Leinster, Glasow and Scarlets helped him better deal with the RC teams who play all court gameplans against his more phyisical team and how to nullify them.

Another thing that is often overlooked is the Pro14 is a squad league.  You have to be able to trust your squad to win over the season.  Other leagues have a first 23 and after that it's injury cover.  The way he split his squad when they played away in Oz and NZ was classic Pro14 management where he trusted both teams to do the business.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Brendan wrote:

profitius wrote:The pro??  is far from dead. Its the youngest of the 4 major world leagues and still finding its feet. You can look at things negatively or positively. I don't expect SA teams to suddenly get 30,000 fans watching because I think it will take time to grow on them but if you want to grow something you need to plant some seeds and give them time. The league isn't perfect but has been growing since the celtic league days.


The Irish bringing down the British empire by using irish American banks? That's a new one for me but you're entitled to your opinion.


I don't think Irish teams will raid SA for talent either. Keynan Knox is the only young SA talent in the country and I'm sure he was signed by Rassie when he was with Munster. We have a decent batch of young players coming through.

I expect the SA teams to be getting at least equal with the three Irish.  Because Cheetahs got low crowds it was easy for the SARU to swap them out.  If they had been getting 10-15k I think a place would have been found for them.  With no Super Rugby this is the only game in town so the fans will support it.  With the Cheetahs it was seen as it's not Super Rugby so I am not going.  The big 4 all are in bigger cities with much larger fan bases.

You're in for a shock when you see the crowds for the big 4 when they aren't playing each other unfortunately. The Bulls got 4k when they played the sunwolves and 7k against the Jaguares in 2019 for example.

How much when they played Crusaders or Waratahs.

As has been said previously SR had lost the fans because it was no longer the best teams in the world.

Those figures against Zebre and Dragons would put them middle of the range and better than Cheetahs. Bulls where also in a bit of a mess and had off field issues.

Brendan wrote:The Irish Provinces were having success before the Celtic League started with Ulster winning the Heineken Cup and Munster losing in the final.  They brought that into the league.  The WRU then forced the Regions to be created (not the IRFU) to compete with the Provinces.  They did the first year and Ospreys did for about 10 years.

I don't know why you keep saying the league is dead.  Certain posters have been saying that for 10 years yet the league goes from strenght to strenght.

The SA teams will not be weakened by the league.  Without it they keep even less players.  5 of the 5  unions are happy with it.  Fans from 4 of the 5 Nations are happy with it and even 75% of the Welsh fans are happy with it.  Most Welsh fans frustrations from the league either are to do with the Regions existing or the WRU. Neither are the league nor the other 4 Unions fault.

As we have seen with the Rainbow Cup it was all doom and gloom but as it has gone on more and more are loving it.

Old Man understands the league perfectly as he lives in the real world and understand that better teams don't mean conspires.  I also hope he understands most Welsh fan are not reflective of certain views on here.

Their success came at the birth of professional rugby when everyone was finding their feet. Not to dismiss it, as Munster in particular had real European pedigree in the 90s and 00s, but the English quickly caught up and surpassed the European success of the Irish when it became clear what survival and success in professionalism would mean. Munster definitely enjoyed a golden generation of players that they haven't been able to replicate, in hindsight those men will rightly go down as legends for them. It was telling that the Welsh dominated the Celtic League once they moved to regions and got rid of the clubs, however. The combined talent in Wales finished in 4 of the top 5 spots in the first year of regionalism - brand new teams, new coaches, playing against the settled Irish provinces yet they still outperformed them - so you're being selective about the idea of success. The Scarlets were a top side until the financial crisis, where their foresight to build a stadium meant they had to cut back completley on the playing squad (despite producing so many top players in that time who have reached the top of the sport like Jon Davies, Liam Williams etc). The Blues were likewise doing well in Europe but almost as soon as the Welsh started outperforming the Irish, the Irish brought in the foreign players (helped by the fact that Ireland is a corporate tax haven). The fact that the Ospreys didn't win at least one if not several European cups from 2006-2012 was a case of massive underachivement, poor coaching (Holley was carried by so many talented players, if the Ospreys had a serious coach they would surely have won a European Cup), and the old Welsh mindset of not knowing how to win when they're favourites. It's also reflective of sport that fine margins can decide a winner or a loser - the Ospreys were so close yet so far, where Munster had that ruthless winning mentality despite a lack of quality and Leinster had the planning and money to succeed through what then became the template for destroying the Pro?? for the benefit of the IRFU-run provinces.

As for the league's health, it has become atrocious. Only Leinster have done anything of note in Europe for years now. Even with the ability to rest players for most of the season, Ulster and Munster haven't reasonably threatened to win a European trophy. What they have been able to do is stock their teams with enough players to finish high in the Pro?? in large part because of their financial status. The Blues have won a European competition more recently than any Irish team other than Leinster. So, yes, the league is failing to produce anything of note other than Irish comfort and success. It can't even do anything particularly beneficial for the other 3 teams outside Dublin, other than guaranteeing them participation in Europe. It has all the hallmarks of a fix to be honest, with Connacht having little to complain about as their overperformance is impossible to argue as something that is good for the league. It is not going from strength to strength, the competition is dead.

You can deny it if you like but it is worse in every meaningful sense than it was 10 years ago. Pick any category? I am certain it won't have improved relative to its European competition. If you truly think it's better now than it was 10 or even 15 years ago you need to get out of Ireland and see how the league is viewed in Scotland and, in particular, Wales.

75% of Wales fans are happy? 66% of the time it works every time? Are you just throwing in fictional stats for the sake of it?

A recent poll on a Welsh national news site: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-fans-want-british-20481564

"What league tournament should the pro teams compete in ideally?
British & Irish League - 51%
Anglo-Welsh League - 21%
PRO16 (with four South African sides) - 17%
PRO12 - 7%
Something else - 4%"

The Welsh rugby public has more common sense than the administrators who are blindly chasing after the money, as evidenced by the completely incompetent decision to axe the Pro?? this season for no good reason.

Fewer games, more meaningful games, in a competition people care about. That is the future of rugby. Only the Irish are preventing this from happening as the Pro?? gives them an artificial position of strength, allowing them them the benefit of Welsh, Scottish, Italian, and now SA'n revenue, while propping up their province(s) (let's be honest, it's only Leinster) so they can compete with the English and French in Europe, who have to endure far tougher league competitions than the Pro??. It's ideal for Ireland as their success doesn't come from an Irish funded competition, as Exeter or Saracens in England. It comes from the other stakeholders of the Pro?? who experience none of the pay off as they can't compete with the financial climate that Ireland has.

People are loving the Rainbow Cup? Are you sure? No one's watching it and no one cares. Benneton are top which says it all.

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy when it's all very much in the public record. Ireland is a tax haven and has used that to destroy the fabric of the Celtic League by outcompeting the two UK Celtic nations. It's really very simple, they'll look to do to SA what they did to the others: tying them in to a competition where SA have no choice but to stay. If SARU has been wise they will already be liasing with NZRU et al to redevelop Super Rugby in to something more feasible. As it stands, it looks like the CVC money is proving too much of a lure. In which case, we'll have to see how they feel in 5 years time.

Can people stop saying ‘The Welsh’ when speaking about people having issue with the Pro??? It’s, like, 4 people on a random internet forum. Hardly the whole of Wales. I’m sure you can find 4 Irish people who dislike the Pro??? too if you look hard enough. Or 4 South Africans with different views on joining the Pro??? to you, old man.

Brendan wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Brendan wrote:

profitius wrote:The pro??  is far from dead. Its the youngest of the 4 major world leagues and still finding its feet. You can look at things negatively or positively. I don't expect SA teams to suddenly get 30,000 fans watching because I think it will take time to grow on them but if you want to grow something you need to plant some seeds and give them time. The league isn't perfect but has been growing since the celtic league days.


The Irish bringing down the British empire by using irish American banks? That's a new one for me but you're entitled to your opinion.


I don't think Irish teams will raid SA for talent either. Keynan Knox is the only young SA talent in the country and I'm sure he was signed by Rassie when he was with Munster. We have a decent batch of young players coming through.

I expect the SA teams to be getting at least equal with the three Irish.  Because Cheetahs got low crowds it was easy for the SARU to swap them out.  If they had been getting 10-15k I think a place would have been found for them.  With no Super Rugby this is the only game in town so the fans will support it.  With the Cheetahs it was seen as it's not Super Rugby so I am not going.  The big 4 all are in bigger cities with much larger fan bases.

You're in for a shock when you see the crowds for the big 4 when they aren't playing each other unfortunately. The Bulls got 4k when they played the sunwolves and 7k against the Jaguares in 2019 for example.

How much when they played Crusaders or Waratahs.

As has been said previously SR had lost the fans because it was no longer the best teams in the world.

Those figures against Zebre and Dragons would put them middle of the range and better than Cheetahs.  Bulls where also in a bit of a mess and had off field issues.

Bulls drew 7k against the Waratahs. Attendances across the SH were falling already before super rugby made its convoluted schedule. Getting sub 10k crowds in massive stadiums isn't going to cut it for the SARU no matter how it compares against other teams in the league. You can't judge them the same as teams in the NH. For instance Super rugby's attendances still stacked up well against other leagues in 2019 but they still couldn't save the competition.

y ddraig goch wrote:

Brendan wrote:The Irish Provinces were having success before the Celtic League started with Ulster winning the Heineken Cup and Munster losing in the final.  They brought that into the league.  The WRU then forced the Regions to be created (not the IRFU) to compete with the Provinces.  They did the first year and Ospreys did for about 10 years.

I don't know why you keep saying the league is dead.  Certain posters have been saying that for 10 years yet the league goes from strenght to strenght.

The SA teams will not be weakened by the league.  Without it they keep even less players.  5 of the 5  unions are happy with it.  Fans from 4 of the 5 Nations are happy with it and even 75% of the Welsh fans are happy with it.  Most Welsh fans frustrations from the league either are to do with the Regions existing or the WRU. Neither are the league nor the other 4 Unions fault.

As we have seen with the Rainbow Cup it was all doom and gloom but as it has gone on more and more are loving it.

Old Man understands the league perfectly as he lives in the real world and understand that better teams don't mean conspires.  I also hope he understands most Welsh fan are not reflective of certain views on here.

Their success came at the birth of professional rugby when everyone was finding their feet. Not to dismiss it, as Munster in particular had real European pedigree in the 90s and 00s, but the English quickly caught up and surpassed the European success of the Irish when it became clear what survival and success in professionalism would mean. Munster definitely enjoyed a golden generation of players that they haven't been able to replicate, in hindsight those men will rightly go down as legends for them. It was telling that the Welsh dominated the Celtic League once they moved to regions and got rid of the clubs, however. The combined talent in Wales finished in 4 of the top 5 spots in the first year of regionalism - brand new teams, new coaches, playing against the settled Irish provinces yet they still outperformed them - so you're being selective about the idea of success. The Scarlets were a top side until the financial crisis, where their foresight to build a stadium meant they had to cut back completley on the playing squad (despite producing so many top players in that time who have reached the top of the sport like Jon Davies, Liam Williams etc). The Blues were likewise doing well in Europe but almost as soon as the Welsh started outperforming the Irish, the Irish brought in the foreign players (helped by the fact that Ireland is a corporate tax haven). The fact that the Ospreys didn't win at least one if not several European cups from 2006-2012 was a case of massive underachivement, poor coaching (Holley was carried by so many talented players, if the Ospreys had a serious coach they would surely have won a European Cup), and the old Welsh mindset of not knowing how to win when they're favourites. It's also reflective of sport that fine margins can decide a winner or a loser - the Ospreys were so close yet so far, where Munster had that ruthless winning mentality despite a lack of quality and Leinster had the planning and money to succeed through what then became the template for destroying the Pro?? for the benefit of the IRFU-run provinces.

As for the league's health, it has become atrocious. Only Leinster have done anything of note in Europe for years now. Even with the ability to rest players for most of the season, Ulster and Munster haven't reasonably threatened to win a European trophy. What they have been able to do is stock their teams with enough players to finish high in the Pro?? in large part because of their financial status. The Blues have won a European competition more recently than any Irish team other than Leinster. So, yes, the league is failing to produce anything of note other than Irish comfort and success. It can't even do anything particularly beneficial for the other 3 teams outside Dublin, other than guaranteeing them participation in Europe. It has all the hallmarks of a fix to be honest, with Connacht having little to complain about as their overperformance is impossible to argue as something that is good for the league. It is not going from strength to strength, the competition is dead.

You can deny it if you like but it is worse in every meaningful sense than it was 10 years ago. Pick any category? I am certain it won't have improved relative to its European competition. If you truly think it's better now than it was 10 or even 15 years ago you need to get out of Ireland and see how the league is viewed in Scotland and, in particular, Wales.

75% of Wales fans are happy? 66% of the time it works every time? Are you just throwing in fictional stats for the sake of it?

A recent poll on a Welsh national news site: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-fans-want-british-20481564

"What league tournament should the pro teams compete in ideally?
British & Irish League - 51%
Anglo-Welsh League - 21%
PRO16 (with four South African sides) - 17%
PRO12 - 7%
Something else - 4%"

The Welsh rugby public has more common sense than the administrators who are blindly chasing after the money, as evidenced by the completely incompetent decision to axe the Pro?? this season for no good reason.

Fewer games, more meaningful games, in a competition people care about. That is the future of rugby. Only the Irish are preventing this from happening as the Pro?? gives them an artificial position of strength, allowing them them the benefit of Welsh, Scottish, Italian, and now SA'n revenue, while propping up their province(s) (let's be honest, it's only Leinster) so they can compete with the English and French in Europe, who have to endure far tougher league competitions than the Pro??. It's ideal for Ireland as their success doesn't come from an Irish funded competition, as Exeter or Saracens in England. It comes from the other stakeholders of the Pro?? who experience none of the pay off as they can't compete with the financial climate that Ireland has.

People are loving the Rainbow Cup? Are you sure? No one's watching it and no one cares. Benneton are top which says it all.  

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy when it's all very much in the public record. Ireland is a tax haven and has used that to destroy the fabric of the Celtic League by outcompeting the two UK Celtic nations. It's really very simple, they'll look to do to SA what they did to the others: tying them in to a competition where SA have no choice but to stay. If SARU has been wise they will already be liasing with NZRU et al to redevelop Super Rugby in to something more feasible. As it stands, it looks like the CVC money is proving too much of a lure. In which case, we'll have to see how they feel in 5 years time.

Cardiff won the challenge cup in 2018 beating one of your precious premiership sides in the final, Scarlets with their incredible squad and brilliant rugby made the HC semi final that year. You should try watch your regions sometime instead of longing for the premiership.

Yes, I said Cardiff had won a European competition more recently than any Irish side other than Leinster. Did you miss that or just ignore it because it hints at the fact that Irish success in the Pro?? is, as Jose Mourinho would put it, a 'fake result'?

y ddraig goch wrote:Yes, I said Cardiff had won a European competition more recently than any Irish side other than Leinster. Did you miss that?

Yes you're posts are so long and full of nonsense I only skip through them. Like I said you should try watch your own regions instead of pandering to the English sides. There are plenty of people who would kill to have a professional domestic team to cheer for.

I don't know why you're being so sarcastic saying they're 'my' precious Premiership teams? Where's that come from? It's an example of what a healthy competition looks like where fans are invested in the league and care about each and every game. Why would anyone not want their teams to be playing in a league like that? Do you seriously think PSG fans are happy playing in their French league and sneer at the English Premier League? What are you even trying to say, I don't understand? What point are you making? Does Wales have more rugby links to England or Ireland? From there it's an easy decision: why should the Pro?? survive? At the moment I'm yet to see any reasonable suggestion other than it's the status quo, it will be propped up by CVC, and there will be just enough money to keep the national teams semi-competitive at international level (but it will destroy your grassroots, so sorry to everyone under the age of 12, we don't care about you), and perhaps the only genuine benefit which is it allows the union to manage workloads of the test players and provide superior welfare. It's no surprise that nearly 75% of fans want to leave to Pro?? - would you rather be Cardiff and Swansea FC playing in England, or Celtic and Rangers playing in Scotland? The answer is simple but it's impossible to accept for the Irish as it destroys the very thing that aids their financial and on field success/overperformance.

The sneering that gets directed towards to Welsh is so hard to understand. This isn't baseless criticism, it's not just some made up conspiracy. If someone engaged with the very fair points we'd have an interesting discussion about what the best long term option for the Celtic League should be but you're not so we can't. I find it impossible not to laugh at the idea that 'developing South African rugby' is now a core aim for the Celtic League. What are we even talking about?! This is Big Brother levels of nonsense, where we've always cared about South African rugby...no, wait, the USA...ok no they're not going to join, back to South Africa. Meanwhile, the Celtic League has overseen the major decline of 2/3 of the Celtic nations, but let's just ignore that and pretend South African development is what matters. It is the absolute epitome of what is wrong with contemporary corporate globalism and the failure of a financial union, where the strongest constituent continually exploits the less wealthy for its own superiority, has many recent analogues to the political realm.

The problem is, no one's actually buying the 'it will be better for everyone' marketing nonsense. The league is dead, it just takes some people longer to accept it than others.

y ddraig goch wrote:I don't know why you're being so sarcastic saying they're 'my' precious Premiership teams? Where's that come from? It's an example of what a healthy competition looks like where fans are invested in the league and care about each and every game. Why would anyone not want their teams to be playing in a league like that? Do you seriously think PSG fans are happy playing in their French league and sneer at the English Premier League? What are you even trying to say, I don't understand? What point are you making? Does Wales have more rugby links to England or Ireland? From there it's an easy decision: why should the Pro?? survive? At the moment I'm yet to see any reasonable suggestion other than it's the status quo, it will be propped up by CVC, and there will be just enough money to keep the national teams semi-competitive at international level (but it will destroy your grassroots, so sorry to everyone under the age of 12, we don't care about you).

The sneering that gets directed towards to Welsh is so hard to understand. This isn't baseless criticism, it's not just some made up conspiracy. If someone engaged with the very fair points we'd have an interesting discussion about what the best long term option for the Celtic League should be but you're not so we can't.

The problem is, no one's actually buying the 'it will be better for everyone' marketing nonsense. The league is dead, it just takes some people longer to accept it than others.

Eh absolutely yes, what a bizarre comment, of course they are happy in their league hence their 46k average attendance, they certianly don't spend time on forums longing to join other nations' leagues. My sarcasm comes from you're extremely inflated view of the premiership; which is having to reduce it's salary cup significantly over the next couple of seasons due to every club barring Exeter running at a massive loss every year.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:I don't know why you're being so sarcastic saying they're 'my' precious Premiership teams? Where's that come from? It's an example of what a healthy competition looks like where fans are invested in the league and care about each and every game. Why would anyone not want their teams to be playing in a league like that? Do you seriously think PSG fans are happy playing in their French league and sneer at the English Premier League? What are you even trying to say, I don't understand? What point are you making? Does Wales have more rugby links to England or Ireland? From there it's an easy decision: why should the Pro?? survive? At the moment I'm yet to see any reasonable suggestion other than it's the status quo, it will be propped up by CVC, and there will be just enough money to keep the national teams semi-competitive at international level (but it will destroy your grassroots, so sorry to everyone under the age of 12, we don't care about you).

The sneering that gets directed towards to Welsh is so hard to understand. This isn't baseless criticism, it's not just some made up conspiracy. If someone engaged with the very fair points we'd have an interesting discussion about what the best long term option for the Celtic League should be but you're not so we can't.

The problem is, no one's actually buying the 'it will be better for everyone' marketing nonsense. The league is dead, it just takes some people longer to accept it than others.

Eh absolutely yes, what a bizarre comment, of course they are happy in their league hence their 46k average attendance, they certianly don't spend time on forums longing to join other nations' leagues. My sarcasm comes from you're extremely inflated view of the premiership; which is having to reduce it's salary cup significantly over the next couple of seasons due to every club barring Exeter running at a massive loss every year.

Why do you think people watch sport? Either on TV or in person. Why do they take the time and money to invest in supporting a team?